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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories

Reged: 07/20/07

Loc: California

Re: Best way to connect Mach1GTO to a computer? new

new

[Re: WadeH237]
#5275958 - 06/17/12 05:43 PM

My AP900 works great with CCDAP5, just works, no issues and I get to sleep at night.
Blueman

Quote:

Quote:

If you are using planetarium software and ASCOM, just make sure that "Convert SYNCs to RECALs" check box is checked in A-P V2 ASCOM driver so that "Recal" is used instead of "Sync" when connected to PC.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

I've been patiently watching this thread unfold. I am on the notification list for an AP mount, and I use CCDAP to automate my imaging. When CCDAP points to a target, it does a slew, a plate solve, syncs the mount to the plate solved position, and then a final slew. This results in very precise pointing, but I was getting really worried about what would happen if CCDAP pointed the mount while tracking past the meridian.

I was assuming that the AP software did something like this setting does, and I was going to confirm it with AP when I actually get the mount. It's great to hear confirmation on this thread!

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Peter in Reno
Post Laureate

Reged: 07/15/08

Loc: Reno, NV

Re: Best way to connect Mach1GTO to a computer? new

new

[Re: blueman]
#5275979 - 06/17/12 05:56 PM

As long as you use your keypad to a minimum like don't use "Recal" or even GoTo if you use PC/planetarium then there should be no problems. Using keypad's directional buttons (N, S, W, E) should be fine.

Yes, you can use keypad along with PC if you know what you are doing that won't cause the mount to go nuts. Just pay attention to where the scope is moving.

I also use A-P Quick Drift Alignment for polar alignment. It's ridiculously easy and quick. I came from Celestron CPC0800 using All Star Polar Alignment (ASPA) and I thought it will take longer to polar align with Mach1 but I find it quicker to polar align with Mach1 than NexStar.

A-P mounts are top notch in hardware and software/firmware. You will never regret it.

Peter

Edited by Peter in Reno (06/17/12 06:01 PM)

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Denimsky
professor emeritus

Reged: 01/21/07

Loc: BC, Canada

Re: Best way to connect Mach1GTO to a computer? new

new

[Re: Peter in Reno]
#5275989 - 06/17/12 06:03 PM

Thank you guys.
I've learned a lot about AP setup.
I'm really glad that I asked you guys before I try the new setup myself.

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WadeH237
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Snohomish, WA

Re: Best way to connect Mach1GTO to a computer? new

new

[Re: blueman]
#5276046 - 06/17/12 06:54 PM

Quote:

My AP900 works great with CCDAP5, just works, no issues and I get to sleep at night.
Blueman

There is a thread similar to this one going over the the AP users group list. If I understand correctly how sync works, once you sync on an object past the meridian, the mount would then start operating with the assumption that you want to stay on that side of the meridian (ie. going around the bottom on slews).

In general, I am looking forward to letting the mount track past the meridian if my payload will clear the mount. My concern in doing this is that my target might pass the meridian and that CCDAP might sync on it in that position. If it then became necessary to focus, it might pick a nearby star that hadn't yet transited. In this case, the mount would slew upside down, maximizing the chance for a collision.

Now that I think about it, CCDAP only does a sync immediately after a slew and plate solve. This means that there is only a very narrow window for a problem to occur. For example, the mount would have to slew to an object just about to transit, then the object would have to transit during the plate solve, and then by the time the sync happens, the object would be past the meridian.

After reading about sync in both this thread and the one on the user's group, I reached the conclusion that there must be a way to prevent this. The setting that Peter describes seems like it does exactly that. What CCDAP really wants to do is a recal.

Finally, regarding running with both the hand controller and a computer, it seems like this works in a pretty rational way (better than trying to run NexRemote and the hand controller both on a Celestron mount). In practice, I am used to running my CGE with NexRemote while the hand controller is still packed away. My assumption is that I'll not even plug in the AP hand controller in most cases. But in reading about some of their cool ways to do polar alignment, I will probably do the polar alignment with the hand controller and then put it away when I connect everything for imaging. I am really looking forward to the call. I hope that they are close to shipping the AP1600s.

Thanks everyone for an interesting and informative thread.

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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories

Reged: 07/20/07

Loc: California

Re: Best way to connect Mach1GTO to a computer? new

new

[Re: WadeH237]
#5276056 - 06/17/12 07:00 PM

I have the "Convert SYNCs to RECALs" check box checked and no problems with the Meridian Flip.
Blueman

Quote:

Quote:

My AP900 works great with CCDAP5, just works, no issues and I get to sleep at night.
Blueman

There is a thread similar to this one going over the the AP users group list. If I understand correctly how sync works, once you sync on an object past the meridian, the mount would then start operating with the assumption that you want to stay on that side of the meridian (ie. going around the bottom on slews).

In general, I am looking forward to letting the mount track past the meridian if my payload will clear the mount. My concern in doing this is that my target might pass the meridian and that CCDAP might sync on it in that position. If it then became necessary to focus, it might pick a nearby star that hadn't yet transited. In this case, the mount would slew upside down, maximizing the chance for a collision.

Now that I think about it, CCDAP only does a sync immediately after a slew and plate solve. This means that there is only a very narrow window for a problem to occur. For example, the mount would have to slew to an object just about to transit, then the object would have to transit during the plate solve, and then by the time the sync happens, the object would be past the meridian.

After reading about sync in both this thread and the one on the user's group, I reached the conclusion that there must be a way to prevent this. The setting that Peter describes seems like it does exactly that. What CCDAP really wants to do is a recal.

Finally, regarding running with both the hand controller and a computer, it seems like this works in a pretty rational way (better than trying to run NexRemote and the hand controller both on a Celestron mount). In practice, I am used to running my CGE with NexRemote while the hand controller is still packed away. My assumption is that I'll not even plug in the AP hand controller in most cases. But in reading about some of their cool ways to do polar alignment, I will probably do the polar alignment with the hand controller and then put it away when I connect everything for imaging. I am really looking forward to the call. I hope that they are close to shipping the AP1600s.

Thanks everyone for an interesting and informative thread.

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Peter in Reno
Post Laureate

Reged: 07/15/08

Loc: Reno, NV

Re: Best way to connect Mach1GTO to a computer? new

new

[Re: blueman]
#5276080 - 06/17/12 07:22 PM

Wade,

You can still do polar alignment using Quick Drift Method and use the PC. There is a Meridian Delay box in A-P V2 ASCOM driver that you can set just like the keypad.

A small warning about Meridian Delay when using keypad and ASCOM driver. If "Sync Mount to PC Time" check box in ASCOM driver is checked, then you cannot use Meridian Delay with keypad because ASCOM driver will keep resetting the keypad clock and set Meridian Delay to zero.

There are two ways to overcome this. If your mount is connected to PC and you want to use Meridian Delay with the keypad, either close the ASCOM driver or uncheck the check box.

I would prefer to use ASCOM driver all the time including Meridian Delay and limit keypad to directional control only if you want to control the mount with PC.

Do a search about Meridian Delay at A-P GTO Yahoo Groups. Many people have asked why the Meridian Delay did not work with keypad and the common response is "Is your mount connected to PC and is ASCOM driver running with that check box checked"?

Peter

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Peter in Reno
Post Laureate

Reged: 07/15/08

Loc: Reno, NV

Re: Best way to connect Mach1GTO to a computer? new

new

[Re: Peter in Reno]
#5276090 - 06/17/12 07:31 PM

Wade,

Here is a sample post from A-P GTO Yahoo Groups about Meridian Delay:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-gto/message/36625

Peter

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WadeH237
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: Snohomish, WA

Re: Best way to connect Mach1GTO to a computer? new

new

[Re: Peter in Reno]
#5276186 - 06/17/12 08:49 PM

Thanks blueman and Peter.

I am on the AP users group and GTO lists over at Yahoo. I've got a good idea about how the mount works.

The thing that this thread adds that I'd not seen before is that you can set up the software to translate a sync call from ASCOM software so that the mount gets a recal instead of a sync.

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Starhawk
Post Laureate

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona

Re: Best way to connect Mach1GTO to a computer? new

new

[Re: WadeH237]
#5276441 - 06/18/12 12:58 AM

The ASCOM safety is a huge advantage. I have just written a suggestion to AP on a way to protect the control system from that fault, otherwise.

We'll see what happens.

-Rich

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CounterWeight
Postmaster

Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Cloudyopolis, OR.

Re: Best way to connect Mach1GTO to a computer? [Re: Starhawk]
#5276516 - 06/18/12 02:27 AM

Honestly,
I've never had any issues - and to read this thread might seem it is a bit less than plug and play which IMO it largely is. I think the manual makes very clear when to use what and I believe does include some warning lang about sync. But if you are plugging something else in to control the mount, it's on you to know how that will work. Really IMO all very straightforward and as long as you stay within the lines no issues. I have had some help and seen some given here by RG or other A-P support staff about software not A-P made which is great.

It only takes a few minutes to sit down with whatever you want to use and call up the software and see for youself just exactly how it works in the details, but as far as a best way to connect? Read the manuals? If connecting 3rd party software, also RTM for that. It really is pretty simple and problem free. That includes guiding and guide past meridian... a little goes a long way.

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Starhawk
Post Laureate

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona

Re: Best way to connect Mach1GTO to a computer? new

new

[Re: CounterWeight]
#5276804 - 06/18/12 09:55 AM

I agree, if you stay with the simplest possible setups, it's trouble free.

But once you start trying to do a little more, not so much. I read the part in the manual about hooking up to an external wifi device, specifically the one AP shows using, talked to AP about it and what I should expect to have happen, including someone who said he had been using that setup for star parties. I read the documentation with the software and talked to the vendor in person at NEAF, and you know what? None of these sources revealed the button marked "Align" was sending SYNC. Note, the button didn't say SYNC on it, and from your write up you seem to have missed that point, so I apparently need to draw more attention to it:

The substitution of SYNC was not documented anywhere. AP didn't mention it. There was no way to know, beforehand.

So AFTER the crash, and doing some experiments which showed the Align command was doing some really strange things, then AP mentioned they knew Align was sending SYNC.

And from previous posts, this problem is so large, AP's own ASCOM driver has an override option.

So, I suggest you don't attempt anything bolder than what you are doing currently. You'll be fine. But this is a demonstration of for the billionth time, RTM is great for snark, yet a complete failure for real life.

But yes, there is a lot to read with a Mach 1. And not one bit of it warns about people substituting SYNC commands because AP named a special purpose command after one used very differently in the rest of the industry.

-Rich

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psu_13
sage

Reged: 05/30/10

Re: Best way to connect Mach1GTO to a computer? new

new

[Re: Starhawk]
#5276901 - 06/18/12 10:48 AM

Most software that isn't specific to the AP mounts will send "SYNC" when you do things that imply syncing the current pointing position with the actual postion of the previous GOTO. This is, I assume, a historical vestige of what SYNC means in the various command languages of the various control systems.

Unfortunately, for whatever reason, AP decided to use the name "RECAL" to mean what most systems call "SYNC" and decided to add different and potentially confusing semantics to their version of the "SYNC" command. Of course, only the AP ASCOM driver, the AP keypad, and a few related tools understand this distinction.

The result is that software will naively send SYNC anyway (because the enemy of software that works is situational inconsistency) and that this can mess you up if you are not careful. This includes things like SkySafari, where a button called "align" is used to sync up where the software thinks you are pointed with where the mount really is pointed.

There is in fact a long section about this in the various bits of AP documentation... probably in the keypad manual (for example, page 18 of the v4.12 manual, and again on page 21, and again on page 62), although of course they don't specifically mention Sky Safari since they don't produce that software themselves. But, page 64 of the manual does say this:

"CAUTION: It is important to note that external software programs may not make the same distinction between the 2 terms, so be careful when syncing or re-calibrating (or whatever they call it) with other programs. For safety sake you may want to treat any similar command in external software like a Sync command and use it only with the object and telescope on opposite sides of the meridian."

I agree that this is an unfortunate and confusing state of affairs, but in my experience this is the par for the course in this tiny niche market we have all decided to be memebers of.

The upside is that at least when you reach the top of this particular learning curve, the AP mounts work precisely and reliably.

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Starhawk
Post Laureate

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona

Re: Best way to connect Mach1GTO to a computer? new

new

[Re: psu_13]
#5276937 - 06/18/12 11:10 AM

Yep. Of course, it's very hard to tell what this means from that passage.

If only it told the one piece of relevant information: the mount will crash the telescope into the pier at full speed if this happens.

In the meantime, the only scar on my AP scope was put there by my AP mount.

-Rich

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Peter in Reno
Post Laureate

Reged: 07/15/08

Loc: Reno, NV

Re: Best way to connect Mach1GTO to a computer? new

new

[Re: Starhawk]
#5277072 - 06/18/12 12:53 PM

Someone at A-P GTO Yahoo Groups just posted a similar topic as here:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-gto/message/37052

I think I did exactly what #1 said that caused the mount to go nuts..

Peter

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CounterWeight
Postmaster

Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Cloudyopolis, OR.

Re: Best way to connect Mach1GTO to a computer? new

new

[Re: Peter in Reno]
#5277164 - 06/18/12 01:51 PM

Please accept my apology - I didn't mean to be a snark. I'll admit spending a lot of time in the manual on the very subject - trying to get a clear understanding of the difference between the two commands. My own take away was I never wanted to use the synch command - and so I blindly checked the 'convert to' box on the screen when I installed the software / drivers.

The manuals take some scrutiny for pulling out details, and I found the GOTO CPC3 manual, where the ASCOM driver info located to be pretty 'slim' on info with a link for info on the web. On P 32 (manual)states overall caveat about where mount control is done (CPC3 box vs. HC) it's only if you follow that link to the A-P site that it shows the controller with the "Use RCAL for sync's" box checked.

In the bulleted lines below about the driver it-
"Can be configured to convert SYNC commands to RCAL commands to prevent possible mount mis-positioning. (Recommended!) "

Not exactly obvious or even easy to locate.

In my GTO Keypad manual (V 4.12) dated March 2008-
Warnings for synch (with graphic)are given on page 18
Additional warning (with comment that damage can result) is buried way back in 'Advanced Features', the 'detailed eplanation between synch and recal' pages 61, 63, and 65, includes some type of warning language and or graphic regrading the synch command.

There is a small write up on using with'TheSky' on pages 73-75 though no warning language included there.

Again I apologize as I in no way meant to be snarky about this.

Edited by CounterWeight (06/18/12 01:54 PM)

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CounterWeight
Postmaster

Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Cloudyopolis, OR.

Re: Best way to connect Mach1GTO to a computer? new

new

[Re: CounterWeight]
#5277195 - 06/18/12 02:05 PM

An added comment, the term synchronize is used in several places in the doc's and refers to different things like time / date / location and also mount postion which makes it ubiquitous as to what it might mean and very much a 'context where used' in issue in overall clarity. Again my apology if I seemed brusk.

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Peter in Reno
Post Laureate

Reged: 07/15/08

Loc: Reno, NV

Re: Best way to connect Mach1GTO to a computer? new

new

[Re: CounterWeight]
#5277338 - 06/18/12 03:40 PM

Jim,

You have nothing to apologize. You were simply describing your experience, that's all.

Peter

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Starhawk
Post Laureate

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona

Re: Best way to connect Mach1GTO to a computer? new

new

[Re: Peter in Reno]
#5277547 - 06/18/12 06:38 PM

I apologize for being abrasive. This has been a bit frustrating.

Interestingly, though, I have an e-mail back from Southern Stars saying they have put this on their fix-list, and will try to have it in their next update.

I'd asked the to coordinate with the AP guys in my email. I'll need to see if that happened. Not so bad for a Monday, really.

-Rich

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Peter in Reno
Post Laureate

Reged: 07/15/08

Loc: Reno, NV

Re: Best way to connect Mach1GTO to a computer? new

new

[Re: Starhawk]
#5277578 - 06/18/12 07:02 PM

Rich,

You may want to post your experience at AP-GTO Yahoo Groups. You may get better advice or feedback there.

Peter

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BlueGrass
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 07/25/09

Loc: Wasatch Front, UT

Re: Best way to connect Mach1GTO to a computer? new

new

[Re: Peter in Reno]
#5277710 - 06/18/12 08:22 PM

I've had this problem once and was there to put an immediate stop to the errant slew. Now, before I issue any sync command from the computer (with the ASCOM driver recal option enabled), I double-check that the scope is indeed pointing to the object in question. I also have reduced my default slew speed via the ASCOM driver to 600x or slower. This adds a bit of time to any slew but helps me keep an eye on all cables and gives me time to stop the slew if necessary. Just my .02.

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