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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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neilson
professor emeritus


Reged: 08/22/10

Re: Why me? new [Re: Mkofski]
      #5433876 - 09/22/12 05:24 AM Attachment (39 downloads)

Hi Everyone,
Sorry Meade is taking so long Kevin, Maybe they are trying to come up with a new update for the firmware before they send it.

Don't feel bad Mike I hadn't guided for almost a year and I thought it would come right back to me. I had forgotten what each setting does, so I am having to do lots of trial and error. And reading the instructions. Now its doing better.

I have recorded a few PE's with Celestrons PE tool. I tried the pempro but it didn't work. That calibration step is involved. So I loaded a run from my PE tool and smoothed it and reinstalled it. The first one made things worse but the second was better. I tried a 6 minute image with PEC on and NO guiding. Then an 8 minute with Pec on and NO guiding. Both images are with my CGEM DX with 9.25 Edge ota and my Canon T1i through a 2" Celestron 99% diagonal. Both at f/10 or whatever through the diagonal makes it. The 6 min. looks good but the stars aren't as round on the 8 min. image. But I am really pleased. On the 8min. image it made double stars. It does that every once in a while. I think I need to slightly off balance the DEC (ota) also, because of the wormgear backlash.
neilson
sky quality meter reading 20.36


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mmalik
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/13/12

Loc: USA
Re: Why me? new [Re: neilson]
      #5433905 - 09/22/12 06:20 AM

Not sure what happened to the bottom image but your top image looks great being unguided (with your CGEM DX). Any plans to do guided test soon?

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Stew57
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/03/09

Loc: Silsbee Texas
Re: Why me? new [Re: mmalik]
      #5434165 - 09/22/12 10:37 AM

If pempro won't work for you try collecting pe data with phd and load it into pecprep. CGEMs (including DX) often have a 8/3 harmonic that often contributes a significant amount to the pe. The pec will often make this error greater because the pec can only do a 1 worm cycle correction and the 8/3 needs a 3 worm cycle correction. Taking 3 worm cycle data average won't help the 8/3 error. That is trhe one thing making the CGEM perfect for my application. Celestron does say they are working on this and the dec cogging.

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Ray Gralak
Vendor (PEMPro)


Reged: 04/19/08

Re: Why me? new [Re: neilson]
      #5434175 - 09/22/12 10:42 AM

It is a common fallacy to think that all you need is a good PEC curve to allow for unguided imaging. PEC will smooth out periodic error on a good mount but there are other sources of tracking error that can cause what you are seeing in your pictures. Things like polar misalignment, refraction, moving optics, dragging cables, mount and scope flexure, and vibrations (like from walking around the mount like sometimes people do).

Anyway, I'm sorry you had problems getting PEMPro to work with your CGEM. Training PEC will definitely make it easier for the autoguider to track a star. If you need help please post your log files on the CCDWare PEMPro support forum. I should be able to get you going.

-Ray

Quote:

Hi Everyone,
Sorry Meade is taking so long Kevin, Maybe they are trying to come up with a new update for the firmware before they send it.

Don't feel bad Mike I hadn't guided for almost a year and I thought it would come right back to me. I had forgotten what each setting does, so I am having to do lots of trial and error. And reading the instructions. Now its doing better.

I have recorded a few PE's with Celestrons PE tool. I tried the pempro but it didn't work. That calibration step is involved. So I loaded a run from my PE tool and smoothed it and reinstalled it. The first one made things worse but the second was better. I tried a 6 minute image with PEC on and NO guiding. Then an 8 minute with Pec on and NO guiding. Both images are with my CGEM DX with 9.25 Edge ota and my Canon T1i through a 2" Celestron 99% diagonal. Both at f/10 or whatever through the diagonal makes it. The 6 min. looks good but the stars aren't as round on the 8 min. image. But I am really pleased. On the 8min. image it made double stars. It does that every once in a while. I think I need to slightly off balance the DEC (ota) also, because of the wormgear backlash.
neilson
sky quality meter reading 20.36




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KietTran
member


Reged: 05/14/12

Re: Why me? new [Re: Stew57]
      #5434319 - 09/22/12 12:05 PM

> If pempro won't work for you try collecting pe data with phd and load it into pecprep.

Mark, what does pecprep do that pempro does not?

Kiet


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neilson
professor emeritus


Reged: 08/22/10

Re: Why me? new [Re: Ray Gralak]
      #5434357 - 09/22/12 12:28 PM

Hi Mark,
I have heard that term 8/3 being a problem with this mount. I am guessing it an error that only occurs once every 3 worm cycles. But I will read up on it. I did get some data on PHD and I'll try Pecprep but I am pretty happy with my current results. But I always want to improve it.

Ray,
I only went through the calibration one time but I plan to reread the procedure and retry until I get it right. But I was able to connect to my mount and download the PE data from it and smooth it and upload it back into my mount for now. But If I can't get it to work I will post on the CCDWare pempro forum, Thank You. You are absolutely right about keeping away from the mount during imaging.

MMalik
I just mounted my guidescope today so I plan to try guiding tonight. I hope to get a 10 minute guided image.

neilson


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Stew57
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/03/09

Loc: Silsbee Texas
Re: Why me? new [Re: KietTran]
      #5434703 - 09/22/12 04:07 PM

PemPro is a great product but he had trouble with so I suggesterd an alternative that is free. I figured he may be using it already for guiding. PemPro actually does more.

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Stew57
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/03/09

Loc: Silsbee Texas
Re: Why me? new [Re: neilson]
      #5434717 - 09/22/12 04:19 PM

The error actually occurs 8 times in 3 worm cycles before repeating.



See how every 3rd worm cycle has the same pe curve? A single worm cycle pec will some times make the pe beter and some times worse. A 3 worm cycle prc takes care of that particular problem.



My particular 8/3 error is 75% of the worm pe. While my overall pe is good the high amount of the 8/3 pe makes the pec less useful. If you have this to any degree in your mount email celestron. the more that let them know the more emphasis they will put on correcting it.


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neilson
professor emeritus


Reged: 08/22/10

Re: Why me? new [Re: Stew57]
      #5434837 - 09/22/12 05:59 PM

Hi Mark,
My mount has that. That's what causes the jump I get every once in a while. I also get this kick back at low speeds every once in a while. I just found that's the cogging problem they are having. I have re adjusted my worm and ring gear and re adjusted the motors drive gear to the worms drive gear a dozen times. I couldn't figure out why this was happening. I kept thinking the gears were binding in some way. Or were to tight. My adjustments were just fine. Its these motor problems. In fact I had just finished adjusting them again, then looked up about the high pitched whine the DX has. I played it on utube, a video from a DX owner. Then I saw the cogging video and realized that was why I was re adjusting my gears in vain.

You can bet they will be getting emails and calls from me. I hear they are working on it, trying for a firmware fix. Well I will help make sure its on the top of their list. Those jumps have been driving me crazy in my test shots.
Thanks for the info.
neilson


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OzAndrewJ
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 11/30/10

Re: Why me? new [Re: Stew57]
      #5434849 - 09/22/12 06:11 PM Attachment (17 downloads)

Gday Mark

Quote:

The error actually occurs 8 times in 3 worm cycles before repeating.




That looks just like a Meade RCX/LX200GPS model
Meade actually implemented a three turn PEC model to try and fix this
as the harmonic comes out of the motor gearhead.
I have a small application that simulates this to show the effects
induced when the gear errors get large relative to the worms PE.
Hours of fun when its cloudy.

In the LX80s ( and hence LX90s and LTs ) the system really needs a 128 turn model to work properly.
Ie ref one of Kevins runs to compare the harmonics and their magnitudes.
Based on this, PEC will be of limited use for a lot of the error.

Andrew


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neilson
professor emeritus


Reged: 08/22/10

Re: Why me? new [Re: OzAndrewJ]
      #5437279 - 09/24/12 12:54 AM Attachment (24 downloads)

Hi Everyone,
All I ever wanted to acheive with my LX80 was 3 to 5 min. guided images. Saturday night, my very first attempt at a 10 minute guided image with my new CGEM DX was a success. I tried several more times with great success. Well I am at 10 and could of gone longer. Friday I loading my PE recorded by my mount and downloaded into Pempro, then clicked on smooth 3 times, then reloaded into my mount. While guiding now my PE on the graph in PHD stayed between +5 and -5, mostly around 2 each way. Before Pempro it was 20 total. I decided not to mess with it any more.

At least thats what I thought. This morning my fujitsu n3410 laptop w/xp pro crashed. I dont have a recovery disc and the internal recovery wont work, anymore. I lost about 400 images and all my astronomy software about 30 programs. I downloaded a few things (PHD) into this ACER laptop I dislike. I setup and my CGEM DX tonight but it crashed. So I painfully reinstalled the firmware. It was very easy to do but my PEC that worked so well is ereased. Plus my laptop crash lost the PE files I saved. As well as my new PHD guiding log I wanted to lookover. And all my PHD guide settings.

My mount has new firmware now and works great but I will just have to start over on my settings and PE. And I will back up my files from now on. I still had the images in my camera. I am posting an image of stars around Altair. I had to bump the contrast because the moon was out but the stars are round.

neilson
CGEM DX 9.25 EdgeHD Canon T1i
PEC, guided 606sec. (10 minutes) first attempt


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Mantis707
member


Reged: 08/14/12

Re: Why me? new [Re: neilson]
      #5437313 - 09/24/12 01:20 AM

Quote:

This morning my fujitsu n3410 laptop w/xp pro crashed. I dont have a recovery disc and the internal recovery wont work, anymore. I lost about 400 images and all my astronomy software about 30 programs.




Is your nickname "Mr. Lucky"?

I kid!

Anyhow I am super happy for you that you got a system that you're happy with! I can only hope the same for myself soon!


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Mkofski
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 07/19/11

Loc: Greenfield, Indiana, USA
Re: Why me? new [Re: OzAndrewJ]
      #5437341 - 09/24/12 01:43 AM

Andrew, Kevin and anyone that is interested, here is a link to the PHD log file I finally got tonight/ this morning. It is about 30 minutes with of data. Please let me know how it looks as I don't know how to interpret it!

http://sendstuffnow.com/securedownload.aspx?q=M2dFFh8mKYZGUFtx/+yfYsAawup0gx681JC3SnK1dYE=

If the link does not work, PM me your regular email address.

Edited by Mkofski (09/24/12 01:46 AM)


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Mkofski
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 07/19/11

Loc: Greenfield, Indiana, USA
Re: Why me? new [Re: neilson]
      #5437354 - 09/24/12 01:52 AM

Neilson, good to hear your mount is going so well. Not so much about your laptop! Backups are important... Always tell my clients that but often do not follow my own advise. I went to an online backup service just to make sure critical files get backed up at least daily. There are some free services out there if you don't need a lot of storage space.

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OzAndrewJ
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 11/30/10

Re: Why me? new [Re: neilson]
      #5437383 - 09/24/12 02:24 AM

Gday Neilson

Sorry to hear about the lappie, but as we used to say at work,
"Real men dont back up, they cry a lot"
At least you know the new rig has shown good signs for the future,

Andrew


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OzAndrewJ
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 11/30/10

Re: Why me? new [Re: Mkofski]
      #5437390 - 09/24/12 02:37 AM

Gday Mike

Quote:

Please let me know how it looks as I don't know how to interpret it!




Initial inspection shows it is relatively repeatable, but the largest part of the PE is coming at 3x the freq of the worm, ie the gear first from the worm has massive PE compared to the worm itself.????
To get true/absolute data magnitudes we need
a) the target star were you pointing at ( ie its DEC )
b) the scopes focal length
c) the camera pixel size ( camera model will allow this to be found )

Irrespective of that, the data looks good so far,
( ie i mean data wise, not necessarily mechanically wise )
so you have learned something new

Andrew


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Mkofski
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 07/19/11

Loc: Greenfield, Indiana, USA
Re: Why me? new [Re: OzAndrewJ]
      #5437437 - 09/24/12 03:51 AM

G'day Andrew,

Looks as of I may need to put my newly acquired skill to work again tomorrow night.

1. I don't know what star it was... Near Alcyone is the best I can do.
2. I used a 50mm finder that takes 1.25mm EP's and am not sure about the FL. It is around 170mm. I bought it used and it is not branded. 50mm objective and about 170mm long.
3. Pixel size is 8.6 x 8.3 (Orion Starshoot G3 mono)

That's only 1 out of 3. Should I rerun the test tomorrow?


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TALK2KEV
sage


Reged: 03/08/06

Loc: Oklahoma
Re: Why me? new [Re: Mkofski]
      #5437487 - 09/24/12 05:28 AM

Neilson
Photo looks great, 10min that's very cool lots of good data there. What guide camera are you using and guide scope?

Laptop
Do you thinks its the hard drive or some other problem did it try to start up? Where I'm going with this is your data is still on the hard drive if you have a external Hard enclosure take you Hard drive out of your laptop install the HD in the enclosure plug it into your new laptop via USB may be able to copy the data off so all is not lost, it worth a try anyway.

here is one for $7.99

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817392032

PS if it works don't leave your data on that old drive!

PS I use a portable Seagate drive and copy all my Sub frames
darks and flats to it. If your blessed and fill one up every year portable are cheap. And if you learn a new technique on stacking or processing you can take that old data and do a do over on that rainy or full moon nights

Great photo man, This sat I get my DX do you think your crash on the CGEM DX is the hard reset they are talking about they say it rare so hope fully it will not happen again for along time. or do you think its something different?

Edited by TALK2KEV (09/24/12 05:48 AM)


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TALK2KEV
sage


Reged: 03/08/06

Loc: Oklahoma
Re: Why me? new [Re: TALK2KEV]
      #5437496 - 09/24/12 05:42 AM

Mike

Looks like you have a good data run, I guess all went well with PHD? can we get a photo of your set up? you said one out of 3 can we get the other two? I would like to see some more if your up to it? also try to do some exposures runs when you get a chance pick a target do 30 sec,60 , 90,150,300,400,600, 780 sec. all guided.

Thanks for the data


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TALK2KEV
sage


Reged: 03/08/06

Loc: Oklahoma
Re: Why me? new [Re: TALK2KEV]
      #5437497 - 09/24/12 05:43 AM

Two more days I should have my Hand controller!

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