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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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Mkofski
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 07/19/11

Loc: Greenfield, Indiana, USA
Re: unguided images new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5515326 - 11/12/12 12:04 AM

Quote:

You're not doing it right. On the second slew to Polaris, you take up half the error in the mechanical screws, then drive to Polaris, and Sync.

-Rich




Rich,

Every time you go back to Plaris, do you use the machanical adjustments to remove half the error and then slew and sync? Sounds easy and faster than what I've been doing.


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neilson
professor emeritus


Reged: 08/22/10

Re: unguided images new [Re: Mkofski]
      #5515364 - 11/12/12 12:30 AM

Hi Mike,
I use a ccd camera to guide and a Canon dslr to image with. You get a big chip and lots of detail. I have gotten alot of nice images with my ccd but they are all getting redone with my Canon and there's a big difference. Plus I can guide with my computer and the camera can image by itself. Other times I image with the DSLR unguided and leave my computer in the house. But now I will be tempted to guide more often with just a quick polar alignment that doesn't need to be perfect. Do whats easy first and have fun.

neilson


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mmalik
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 01/13/12

Loc: USA
Re: unguided images new [Re: dmdouglass]
      #5515415 - 11/12/12 01:23 AM

Quote:

I am now using an Orion StarShoot Autoguider (with ST4 output) for both the LX200, and the CG5-GT




Welcome to ST-4 guiding. That's what I have been trying to say...oh for 64 pages. It is never too late!


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OzAndrewJ
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 11/30/10

Re: unguided images new [Re: mmalik]
      #5515495 - 11/12/12 04:24 AM

Gday Mr Malik

Quote:

Welcome to ST-4 guiding.




Ahhhhh but David mentions using it on the LX200s, and their ST4 guiding works totally differently to the Audiostar ST4 guiding
ie ST4 aint all the same, "in the way it is implemented".
Dunno how the CG5 implements it.

The newest Audiostar firmware has changed the way it works, so it may work better than before, but it will still have no "processing" advantage over std serial pulse guiding, as in the Audiostars, serial and ST4 end up doing EXACTLY the same thing.
( but you dont seem to accept that ST4 guiding includes how it is processed, as well as how it is registered )
Again, its a horses for courses exercise.

Andrew


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David PavlichAdministrator
Transmographied
*****

Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Mandeville, LA USA
Re: unguided images new [Re: dmdouglass]
      #5515634 - 11/12/12 08:57 AM

Quote:

The second image is NGC 4157... This is 120 Seconds...
Note that I still have all the raw data from these images. What is being uploaded is a compressed JPG so that it will fit.




While this isn't bad, it doesn't have round stars. Even with perfect polar alignment, the inherent PE of the LX80 will prevent any truly long exposures from producing excellent results. It's not a knock on Meade, or Celestron for that matter, it is not a top tier mount with tons of extra time allowed in production for the extra machining and polishing that is required to achieve long exposure, unguided images.

David


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dmdouglass
professor emeritus


Reged: 12/23/07

Loc: Tempe, AZ
Re: unguided images new [Re: David Pavlich]
      #5515682 - 11/12/12 09:53 AM

Hello David..

Agreed. From all that i have read, "about" 2 min (+/-) is approaching what "might" be attainable in polar, with good polar alignment. I am sure others can get more than that with a non pier mounted, non high-end mount.

And that image is "about" all i was going to get.

The real answer in imaging is to guide. But back then, I did not have a guiding option (either OTA or input).


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OzAndrewJ
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 11/30/10

Re: PhD file from November 11 new [Re: Mkofski]
      #5516133 - 11/12/12 02:38 PM

Gday Mike

Quote:

Here the file for my last try at PHD. Looks about the same to me as the previous ones.




I had a play with this data last night.
I see there were about 2dozen runs inside the log file with about 4 ones long enough to get reasonable data. ( PECPrep only seems to grab the last run in the file?? )
As you surmised, it appears as erratic as before, but i didnt see any of the big DEC jumps in any of the long plots, but one of the shorter ones did have a jump????
Will format them today and post later this arvo.
You still appear to have a lot of oscillating movement in DEC, which i find confusing.
Be interesting to see what it looks like with A3S4 loaded and PEC Erased then set to ON, as that will totally remove any possibility of DEC tracking.

Andrew


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OzAndrewJ
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 11/30/10

Re: PhD file from November 11 new [Re: OzAndrewJ]
      #5516564 - 11/12/12 07:27 PM Attachment (29 downloads)

Gday Mike

I grabbed the data from your last run and have attached it below.
I see the second 560second block shows the large excursion you get ( similar to your earlier plots, but the first 560seconds didnt show it. I assume this is because the inherent gear errors cancelled each other out on that particular turn.
Just to provide a bit more info on why i commented earlier re not getting "consistent" results from a drive like this, i have marked two regions where say a 100-120second sub could have been done.
If you did your sub at point 1, it would only show a max of say 10 arcseconds of PE.
If you did another sub at point 2, you would get 50 arcsecs???
ie its totally inconsistent, hence one good sub doesnt really count when analysing the unguided performance.

Andrew


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OzAndrewJ
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 11/30/10

Re: unguided images new [Re: OzAndrewJ]
      #5516883 - 11/12/12 10:07 PM

Quote:

The newest Audiostar firmware has changed the way it works, so it may work better than before, but it will still have no "processing" advantage over std serial pulse guiding, as in the Audiostars, serial and ST4 end up doing EXACTLY the same thing.




And my initial testing now indicates that it may guide better in RA, but DEC is broken in a new way, and will more than likely give inconsistent results
Unfortunately, it looks like the serial DEC "Pulse"guiding is also affected by the new mechanism used.

Andrew


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: unguided images new [Re: OzAndrewJ]
      #5517135 - 11/13/12 12:50 AM

I wonder if the LX80's true calling might be as a random number generator.

-Rich


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: unguided images new [Re: Mkofski]
      #5517140 - 11/13/12 12:54 AM

Yes- the technique causes the error to drop by half its previous value at each iteration.

Divide and conquer at its best.

-Rich


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OzAndrewJ
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 11/30/10

Re: unguided images new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5517163 - 11/13/12 01:21 AM

Gday Rich

Quote:

I wonder if the LX80's true calling might be as a random number generator.




Now, now, be nice, you gotta place the blame where it's due.
This latest "feature" i found is specific to the Audiostar code, not the LX80.
It will affect any polar scope that is driven by the current A3S4 code if PEC is turned off.
Its truly weird what happens

Andrew


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: unguided images new [Re: OzAndrewJ]
      #5518463 - 11/13/12 06:35 PM

Hopefully they're still working on it. Meade's market cap went from $2.4 to $2 million just today. All kidding aside, that can't be fun.

-Rich


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OzAndrewJ
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 11/30/10

Re: unguided images new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5518496 - 11/13/12 06:51 PM

Gday Rich

Quote:

Hopefully they're still working on it.




I doubt they even know it exists ( unless they are still reading these threads ).
It is 100% backlash related and gets triggered if you try to guide north greater than your current backlash delta. Guiding South doesnt affect it.
Really is fun to watch what happens .
I am pretty sure now that if you erase your PEC then turn PEC ON, it doesnt trigger the problem.

Andrew


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: unguided images new [Re: OzAndrewJ]
      #5518573 - 11/13/12 07:38 PM

GDay, Andrew. But this is still with the old firmware, isn't it?

-Rich


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OzAndrewJ
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 11/30/10

Re: unguided images new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5518916 - 11/13/12 11:38 PM

Gday Rich
Quote:

Andrew. But this is still with the old firmware, isn't it?




Nope. I am currently testing my full patches on A3S4, ie the latest released firmware.
Lots of stuff changed with this release, so i have had to test fairly closely before releasing my patch, and this new buglet has popped up in that process.
Dunno yet if it was in the older firmwares, but it will certainly make DEC guiding fun in A3S4.

Andrew


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: unguided images new [Re: OzAndrewJ]
      #5519650 - 11/14/12 02:59 PM

Gday Andrew,

Wait- the new firmware does this? So which is better, the previous or the new? This is really disconcerting- I was thinking this was the old version and the one would be clean.

So in the meantime, did you see the eclipse? Someone I know at work went to Australia to see it. He is a lifelong eclipse chaser, but in this case he said it was finally an excuse to go to Australia.

-Rich


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OzAndrewJ
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 11/30/10

Re: unguided images new [Re: Starhawk]
      #5519704 - 11/14/12 03:26 PM

Gday Rich

Quote:

Wait- the new firmware does this?




Yes it is the new firmware that does this, and it is a result of the new changes made in how it works. The bug i found yesterday has two parts interracting. One will affect all scopes and arbitrarily truncates guide durations, the other only occurs if DEC guiding on a scope where the DEC ratio sign is different to the RA ratio sign ( that ones a killer ).

Quote:

So which is better, the previous or the new?




Currently, i'm not sure. For Polar, i would say the new version "will" work better when patched, but only if PEC is also erased and set to ON.

Quote:

I was thinking this was the old version and the one would be clean.





This latest firmware still has more bugs than a doss house mattress, and some new ones introduced along the way. It fixed some bits, rebroke others and left all the others untouched.

Quote:

So in the meantime, did you see the eclipse?




Yep, well at least what could be seen from Melbourne.
Clear as a bell weather for once, with crystal clear skies
The funniest part was i almost had to put a dewheater on my solar scope to prevent it fogging up
Very early and very cold where i was.

Andrew


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Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: unguided images new [Re: OzAndrewJ]
      #5519738 - 11/14/12 03:57 PM

Gday, Andrew.

Well, at least the eclipse worked out. I hope to get the fam out for the one in 2017, here.

Meade sent a couple of guys and had a double-size booth at ASAE here, last week. They were wearing LX800 T-shirts.

What you're describing just sounds like this has all gotten away from them. Unless they give out the source code so people can poke at it and fix it, I'm wondering if this will ever get fixed.

-Rich


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OzAndrewJ
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 11/30/10

Re: unguided images [Re: Starhawk]
      #5519786 - 11/14/12 04:46 PM Attachment (14 downloads)

Gday Rich
Quote:

What you're describing just sounds like this has all gotten away from them.




I think you are close, as there are now three different sets of motor control flags used based on how a move is done. Not sure all parts of the code know about each other anymore

Anyway, just for fun, have attached a plot of the effects of this new bug.
Test is Polar tracking with PEC OFF
I wrote a program to send :Mgn5000# commands to the scope every 9 seconds. Ie ALWAYS north.
I then peeked the absolute DEC encoder offset (red ) and the current "float" (green). The float is registered as the motor reverses through the backlash region.
I preloaded my drive train as 200 arcsec and then set my float to 100 arcsec. I then set it running.
You will note the absolute arcsec started increasing until the float = 200, at which time the backlash routines cut in.
As i have 200 arcsec of lash, it forces me down 200 then starts oscillating,
Sooooo, after sending nothing but north guides, i have actually ended up 100 arcsec SOUTH of where i started.
Also, each of the :Mgn commands runs for 5 seconds, hence i should move 50 arcsec for each move. I never get more than 20 arcsecs, as there is another internal timer that kills all moves when it runs ( on a different 2 second independent timer )
As such, even when guides go the right way, you have no idea what duration you will get

Andrew


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