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MikeBOKC
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 05/10/10
Loc: Oklahoma City, OK
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SETI head article
#5297537 - 07/01/12 09:32 AM
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Jill Tarter of SETI has an interesting opiniion article in the Washington Post today:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-im-not-giving-up-on-the-search-for-extraterrestrial-life/2012/06/29/gJQAbAeJCW_story.html?hpid=z4
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dickbill
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/30/08
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Re: SETI head article
[Re: MikeBOKC]
#5297686 - 07/01/12 11:03 AM
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Well, I will just repeat what I said in the Kepler's topic. Apparently and based on the results of the Kepler's telescope, at about the same time a putative civilization has the mean to send signals in space, it has also the capabilities to precisely spot and identify a candidate planet for life, which can be confirmed in the near future. So the concept of random searching for life is dead, as well as the concept of unintentional communication, IMO. The other important thing to consider, 'Life' is described as a set of chemical reactions filtered by Natural Selection. But that could put us in a conceptual trap. Why? 1) In acqueous solution, organics (from diverse sources, including interstellar) will aggregate and form vesicles. Always. 2) Small molecules and nutrients will diffuse in and out while bigger molecules will stay trapped inside. Always. 3) Natural selection will inevitably favorise autoreplicative molecules at some point. Always. 4) thermodynamic's 2nd principal imposes errors in the replication process, i.e., variations, that will be filtered by natural selection. The best autoreplicators variants will survive, always. In short, Life is inevitable because none of these steps are a rare event, in fact they are all obligatory events under the thermodynamic laws. A bit like when we mix acids and alkalines in solution, we always get a reaction. Richard Dawkins has worked a lot to promote this kind of non-magical, no-big-deal, explanation, to the point that now pre-biotic chemistry and simple cellular life has become this obligatory process. Fine, but it's a big departure from theories from the 70's and 80's which always emphasized the unlikelyness of the key steps and therefore always depicted Life as a very rare event. No such thing now, and according to this, the dozens of exoplanets in the golddilock zone that will be inevitably discovered should be crowded with life, and we should be able to detect it. Back to the beginning now, my bet is that when you mix acids and bases in solution and they never react as they should, it's time to re-consider your concept of acid and base.
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
   
Reged: 09/26/05
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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Re: SETI head article
[Re: dickbill]
#5297769 - 07/01/12 11:55 AM
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You still have a major gap between step 2 and 3 of the list, and it's not yet demonstrated that bridging such a gap is universal, or even common. It may be, but until we know a lot more about the behaviors of these different sub-organic molecules in the types of pre-biotic environments that may or may not be available, I'm sure not going to commit to the "teeming with life" hypothesis.
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dickbill
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/30/08
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Re: SETI head article
[Re: llanitedave]
#5298054 - 07/01/12 03:05 PM
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We know that organics were formed in the interstellar clouds and proto-planetary disks before they were finally bring to Earth by asteroids and comets. How much organic? We know that early Earth had lots of cometary impacts since it supposedly formed most of the surface water, and since the oceans are big, it means lots of organics. That's the soup theory boosted on steroids, if i might say. Anyways it's a big difference with early theories of coacervats and Miller's reactions where everything had to be made 'in situ'. People never imagined that so much organics was already present on Earth. But you are right, the jump from organic chemistry to 'pre-biotic' chemistry starts whith early replicators and that's a big jump. The first self-replicating molecules inside the vesicles must have appeared very fast, IMO (because life appeared so early on earth). There are many hypothesis listed on Wikipedia for this step. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis Maybe one day we will be lucky to recover some piece of early earth life form, frozen in an impactor on the moon.
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Jarad
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/28/03
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Re: SETI head article
[Re: dickbill]
#5298179 - 07/01/12 04:30 PM
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The other big "if" is the environment. Organics and aqueous solutions only mix in a very small range of temperatures and pressures. Too hot or too low pressure, the water boils off. Too cold, it freezes. And you also need some salts, reasonable pH, etc.
So it is still probably fairly rare, since those conditions aren't that common. Only one place you find them in our solar system, anyway.
Jarad
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
   
Reged: 09/26/05
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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Re: SETI head article
[Re: Jarad]
#5298402 - 07/01/12 07:20 PM
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There seems to be more to it than just temperature and pressure as well. What these reactions need to get going is some kind of catalyst. RNA can catalyze reactions, and some proteins do as well. But these weren't present initially.
It's possible that they can be mediated by certain types of mineral surfaces, under the right conditions, but different catalytic reactions need different catalysts. A living cell puts them all together in one container. Non-living molecules don't have that advantage.
There's also the chirality problem, in that organic molecules made in space are pretty much evenly divided between left and right-handed versions, while for life you need a single dominant mode.
So there are a lot of different circumstances that have to come together to transform an organic soup into a living ecosystem. It happened on Earth, and it can surely happen elsewhere. But how? Under what conditions? How likely is it for any individual case?
We still don't know. A sample size of one just doesn't get us very far towards understanding.
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Jarad
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/28/03
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Re: SETI head article
[Re: llanitedave]
#5298599 - 07/01/12 09:59 PM
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Quote:
There's also the chirality problem, in that organic molecules made in space are pretty much evenly divided between left and right-handed versions, while for life you need a single dominant mode.
I suspect that this one is less of a problem than a natural result of the process. Whichever chirality the first replicating molecules are becomes dominant due to the self-replication.
But I agree with all your other points.
Jarad
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
   
Reged: 09/26/05
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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Re: SETI head article
[Re: Jarad]
#5298690 - 07/01/12 11:01 PM
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The problem with racemic mixtures(equal parts left and right handed) is that they make it nearly impossible for proteins to form. You need a chain of L-amino acids exclusively (or potentially R-forms exclusively), and if an enantiomer of the wrong chirality gets involved, the resulting molecule is usually biologically useless, or even harmful. So the dominant chirality had to precede any possible origin of life.
Again, it obviously happened here, but we don't know if that was an unusual circumstance or a fundamental part of the formation of pre-biotic chemicals. From what I can tell, the chiral filtering in space is relatively weak, and may not always be enough to overcome the blocking by anti-chiral enantiomers.
I'd like to be wrong on this, but I haven't seen anything that really contradicts it -- yet.
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Joad
Wordsmith
   
Reged: 03/22/05
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Re: SETI head article
[Re: llanitedave]
#5298743 - 07/01/12 11:58 PM
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What seems to get lost in such discussions is the difference between the possible generation of life and the possible generation of technologically sophisticated life. Of all the species that have appeared on earth in over 3 billion years, only one has become technologically sophisticated, and that one only in the past century or so. The notion that all life on earth has been evolving towards human beings is one that I hope the members of this forum are able to reject. The other species have evolved as well in ther own ways.
I rather imagine that there is probably a good deal of life in the universe, but it has taken over thirteen billion years (at least according to current understanding, which is all we have to go on) for one species on earth to become technologically sophisticated. If there are other technologically sophisticated species in the universe, they may only now be emerging, or only have emerged within the least few thousand years, Any signal from them could be thousands of years away from reaching us, or may never reach us.
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
   
Reged: 09/26/05
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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Re: SETI head article
[Re: Joad]
#5298761 - 07/02/12 12:10 AM
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I agree, Joad. The idea of technological intelligence is a real can of worms, and even big brains (such as those of dolphins) don't mean that it will happen. I do argue that over time evolution should tend to produce greater maximum intelligences, just as a cumulative result, but that doesn't mean that most lineages will trend towards intelligence, nor that those who do will become technological. It's more of a random walk -- as long as there is no barrier to increased intelligence (although in reality such a barrier can actually exist), then some lineages will move in that direction. The more biodiversity you have, the more likely it is that somewhere, intelligence will be achieved. But it's still no guarantee.
Even life at the level of dinosaurs was the result of an incredibly uncertain chain of events -- it may even be that the first appearance of eukaryotic cells among the bacterial population a billion or so years ago was the biggest breakthrough of all. There's no guarantee that would have ever happened, much less the cellular specializations that were required to develop metazoans later on.
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Jarad
Postmaster
   
Reged: 04/28/03
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Re: SETI head article
[Re: llanitedave]
#5298967 - 07/02/12 06:58 AM
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Quote:
The problem with racemic mixtures(equal parts left and right handed) is that they make it nearly impossible for proteins to form.
Impossible to form randomly, but proteins don't form randomly. If you add D-amino acids to an in-vitro translation system, they won't be incorporated. The L-isomer enzymes select L-isomers. To get D-isomers in, you have to take steps to force them in, usually by attaching them to tRNA using chemical methods instead of enzymatic methods, then feeding those into the reaction.
Once a self-replicating molecule starts replicating, if it is chiral, you will start to shift the chirality of mixture. This is especially true if it can replicate itself from achiral starting materials.
Now, perhaps it would be easier to start with an uneven chiral mixture if you rely on more random processes for the first step. But once you get to self-replication, the later results look like more of whatever is self-replicating. If it can't select the correct chirality to incorporate, then it isn't self-replicating yet.
Jarad
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
   
Reged: 09/26/05
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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Re: SETI head article
[Re: Jarad]
#5299571 - 07/02/12 06:15 PM
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Yes, once self replication begins, at least once it's mediated by enzymes, the chirality becomes self-sustaining. But until then, it seems like it would be tough to get it going initially.
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Jason H.
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/23/07
Loc: Central Florida
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Re: SETI head article
[Re: Joad]
#5302272 - 07/04/12 01:45 PM
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O.K., today all the SETI searchers have agreed to stop searching and will now focus on something else now that they know it's impossible (whew, I'm glad that's over!)
Seriously though, it perplexes me why people invest energy in naysaying. There is no better way to test our mediocrity than by measuring/observing. There is no evidence whatsoever that technological civilizations couldn't or did'nt arise earlier in the Universe. Philosophy alone cannot solve this question, only observation can help us determine whether a technological civilization wants to purposely communicate with us (and even though I advocate for The Search, it's a challenge to imagine many positive reasons why they would want to communicate with us!!!)
Regarding "technological sophistication", I think there is a degree of anthropocentrism relative to defining so-called "intelligence", and the speed of it's arrival.
Although no other species on Earth has developed "technological sophistication", certainly others have developed "intelligence" proportional to surviving in their environment (and perhaps not more than than they need to make it to the next generation, reproductively speaking, again relative to their environment only, both materially and socially?)
We cannot predict that given different environmental conditions on another planet, different/faster selection pressures could accelerate (or slow) the rise to technological sophistication. Perhaps one might argue that "technological sophistication", or our type of intelligence if you will, is just one type of survival function, i.e. a species ability to modify it's environment to survive (architect beavers, bowerbirds, chimps fishing for termites, and of course humans come to mind.) Whose to say that this class/function is as limited elsewhere as it is here?
Perhaps if more frequent mass-extinctions occurred, or more ice-ages occurred, or more inter-tribal/social predation occurred a smarter species might have arisen more quickly due to the need (of some species) to modify their environments to survive? There are many unknown factors timing-wise that caused us to arise when we did.
Defining intelligence is unfortunately an anthropocentric speculative affair, but I don't think one could successfully dispute that there are other intelligences on the Earth.
Even Charles Darwin asserted that some animals have reasoning abilities. Obviously mammals like humans, chimps and dolphins don't have a monopoly on intelligence. One African Grey parrot not only developed a vocabulary of more than 80 English words, could distinguish colors and shapes (and say them), could combine words to convey new meaning, could count up to 6 of anything, including the concept of nothing (or zero if you will.)
Other seemingly intelligent creatures (relative to amoebas that is, which BTW even they have inherited intelligence) include:
Primates (which one might disqualify as other examples of intelligence because of the common lineage with humans?)
Cephalopods like octopuses (is that octopii?) and cuttlefish (which have one of the largest brain-to-body size ratios of all invertebrates.)
Cetaceans (dolphin and whales)
Top predators (like highly social team-hunters such as tigers, lions and wolves, the dog's predecessor)
Hymenoptera (wasps, bees, ants etc.)
Maybe Odonata? (dragonflies?) I know they don't have what we'd traditionally call intelligence (and no doubt many would feel that they are not intelligent), but they present a great example of what I call genetic survival intelligence, one cannot hit one at highway speeds with a car (i.e. they seem immensely smarter survival-wise than a squirrel, probably from ducking out predators?), and they fly behind our heads here in Florida near sunset to eat bugs (gotta love them!) Maybe that big optical processing need (from those humongous eyes) mimics intelligence somehow (that twisting/scanning head sort of resembles a dog's inquisitive look), but how do we distinguish that from other intelligence? They seem smart evolution-wise (but are very ancient), and just try to catch one!
(Digressing for a moment, what about those stupid squirrels, you'd think the smarter ones would have been selected out by now because of cars; I guess fecundity wins out over intelligence
And of course, regarding communicating in general, all animals and even microbes communicate to find food or procreate. Some even use electromagnetic radiation to do it (bioluminescent Myctophidae like flashlight fish, lightning bugs, and light sensitive cuttlefish etc.) or echo-location like cetaceans (singing whales or hunting dolphins) and bats.
Final point being, there are lots of communicating seemingly-intelligent organisms on Earth; all life is inclined to communicating; I don't think it's such a reach that others might be inclined to do so in the galaxy, but I strongly believe that the odds would be against us being the first to arrive on the scene! (it's really really big out there, and I think that if "intelligence" is a class of objects, then will be pervasive enough to cause the Principle of Mediocrity to apply to us.)
Regards, Jason W. Higley
Quote:
What seems to get lost in such discussions is the difference between the possible generation of life and the possible generation of technologically sophisticated life. Of all the species that have appeared on earth in over 3 billion years, only one has become technologically sophisticated, and that one only in the past century or so. The notion that all life on earth has been evolving towards human beings is one that I hope the members of this forum are able to reject. The other species have evolved as well in ther own ways.
I rather imagine that there is probably a good deal of life in the universe, but it has taken over thirteen billion years (at least according to current understanding, which is all we have to go on) for one species on earth to become technologically sophisticated. If there are other technologically sophisticated species in the universe, they may only now be emerging, or only have emerged within the least few thousand years, Any signal from them could be thousands of years away from reaching us, or may never reach us.
Edited by Jason H. (07/05/12 10:45 AM)
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simpleisbetter
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/18/11
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Re: SETI head article
[Re: Jason H.]
#5302276 - 07/04/12 01:49 PM
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Stupid squirrels? What are you talking about, one helped win the World Series last year.
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scopethis
Postmaster
Reged: 05/30/08
Loc: Kingman, Ks
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Re: SETI head article
[Re: simpleisbetter]
#5303697 - 07/05/12 12:31 PM
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oh now, let's not single out squirrels. I see humans in their little plastic cars pull out in front of oncoming 60,000+ lb semi trucks everyday....
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Jason H.
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/23/07
Loc: Central Florida
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Re: SETI head article
[Re: scopethis]
#5304571 - 07/05/12 11:08 PM
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You may not have seen them because it was so fast, but they were also texting, chatting with the passenger and fixing their hair simultaneously; E.T. might be amazed 
Jason W. Higley
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Joad
Wordsmith
   
Reged: 03/22/05
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Re: SETI head article
[Re: Jason H.]
#5305347 - 07/06/12 12:51 PM
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I use the words "technological sophistication" precisely to avoid anthropomorphism, and precisely to avoid equating intelligence to technology. My reference is to the ability to build devices capable of sending radio signals or any other electro-magnetic signal, not to the ability to communicate. At any rate, no matter how sophisticated the sender, no such signal exceeds C.
Sorry you don't like "nay sayers." I guess that you will have to remain perplexed. I am perplexed by fantasiers.
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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
   
Reged: 09/26/05
Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
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Re: SETI head article
[Re: Joad]
#5305357 - 07/06/12 12:56 PM
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Joad is 100% correct, or at least I agree with him! The purpose of SETI isn't to look for life, or even Intelligent life (which means the "I" in the acronym is a bit of a misnomer.) I guess it just flows a little better than SETT, which would be the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Technology.
Any species that has been able to develop technology would be necessarily intelligent, but that doesn't mean any intelligent species would be able to develop technology.
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Jason H.
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/23/07
Loc: Central Florida
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Re: SETI head article
[Re: Joad]
#5306192 - 07/06/12 11:55 PM
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Being perplexed by naysayers wasting their time is not the same as saying "don't like" (which I didn't say!) If a naysayer thinks that The Search is futile based on a claim that it takes 13 billion years for a "technologically sophisticated" civilization to come along, I would gladly listen to any supporting evidence that they have for limiting the arrival time of a tech civilization to 13 billion years or later (why dislike naysayers, perhaps one has a valid argument that I would want to hear!)
HOWEVER, you said
"...it has taken over thirteen billion years (at least according to current understanding, which is all we have to go on) for one species on earth to become technologically sophisticated. If there are other technologically sophisticated species in the universe, they may only now be emerging, or only have emerged within the least few thousand years, Any signal from them could be thousands of years away from reaching us, or may never reach us."
MAYBE THEY AROSE 1 BILLION YEARS AGO?
You based your statement on the one example of a technological civilization arising, us; this is why it is an ANTHROPOCENTRIC argument, and why it may be incorrect; there is no reason SFAIK to think that a "technologically sophisticated" civilization couldn't have arisen elsewhere 1 billion years ago or more, or arose in a much shorter time on their planet than 4.5 billion years, say within 2 or 3 billion, also possibly making them much older than us (i.e. plenty of time for signals to travel around at C.)
It might eventually prove to be the case (an interesting prospect too) that there are no others to communicate with, and that indeed it takes 13 billion years for knuckleheads like us to come along, but saying (or philosophizing) that we shouldn't search based on an anthropocentric argument doesn't get the answer to the question; only searching gets the answer!
Jason W. Higley
Quote:
I use the words "technological sophistication" precisely to avoid anthropomorphism, and precisely to avoid equating intelligence to technology. My reference is to the ability to build devices capable of sending radio signals or any other electro-magnetic signal, not to the ability to communicate. At any rate, no matter how sophisticated the sender, no such signal exceeds C.
Sorry you don't like "nay sayers." I guess that you will have to remain perplexed. I am perplexed by fantasiers.
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