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DavidC
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 11/24/05

Loc: Mesa, Arizona

Was Canyon Diablo witnessed 40K years ago? new

#5300076 - 07/03/12 12:54 AM

I know the Canyon Diablo meteorites were discovered around 1878, and fell around 40,000 years ago, and I have read the Native Americans in the area at the time of their discovery used the irons. Are there any suggestions that the Native American peoples around the time of the fall might have witnessed the fall, like in Hieroglyphs? (paintings or other art)
Thanks, David

Post Extras:

Ira
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 08/22/10

Loc: Mitzpe Ramon, Israel

Re: Was Canyon Diablo witnessed 40K years ago? new

[Re: DavidC]
#5300092 - 07/03/12 01:28 AM

Was anyone there that long ago?

/Ira

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sealevel
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 02/09/09

Loc: Florida

Re: Was Canyon Diablo witnessed 40K years ago? new

[Re: Ira]
#5300190 - 07/03/12 06:21 AM

Ira,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Indians

Davio R.

Edited by sealevel (07/03/12 06:23 AM)

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Dick Lipke
professor emeritus

Reged: 02/20/07

Loc: Marine City,Mich.

Re: Was Canyon Diablo witnessed 40K years ago? new

[Re: DavidC]
#5300271 - 07/03/12 08:16 AM

Quote:

I know the Canyon Diablo meteorites were discovered around 1878, and fell around 40,000 years ago, and I have read the Native Americans in the area at the time of their discovery used the irons. Are there any suggestions that the Native American peoples around the time of the fall might have witnessed the fall, like in Hieroglyphs? (paintings or other art)
Thanks, David

There are still people,some very close to me,that will turn red in the face with veins bulging from their necks and scream the universe is not that old.So be careful who you ask.
While visiting Meteorite Crater in Arizona someone in our group with amazement at the site of this huge crater asking to themselves out loud"wonder how old this is". With out hesitation a reply came of "5000 years old".

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sealevel
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 02/09/09

Loc: Florida

Re: Was Canyon Diablo witnessed 40K years ago? new

[Re: Dick Lipke]
#5300282 - 07/03/12 08:28 AM

Hi Dick,
Here's one for you, since we're tossing the word "paleo" around.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/05/080520-fish-evolution.html

Note: This article was written 5,000 years ago, I think.

Davio R.

Edited by sealevel (07/03/12 08:44 AM)

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DavidC
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 11/24/05

Loc: Mesa, Arizona

Re: Was Canyon Diablo witnessed 40K years ago? new

[Re: DavidC]
#5300441 - 07/03/12 10:32 AM

In most articles I have read on Canyon Diablo, it states the fall was 30,000 to 40,000 years ago. I don't don't know if those numbers are really correct, that's in the information I read today. Weather the earth's that old or not, I dunno.
David

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DavidC
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 11/24/05

Loc: Mesa, Arizona

Re: Was Canyon Diablo witnessed 40K years ago? new

[Re: DavidC]
#5300452 - 07/03/12 10:38 AM

O/K, on different websites, I'm finding statements of the earth being about 4.5 Billion years old. So it is very possible for the Canyon Diablo fall to be 30 to 40,000 years ago.

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sealevel
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 02/09/09

Loc: Florida

Re: Was Canyon Diablo witnessed 40K years ago? new

[Re: DavidC]
#5300701 - 07/03/12 02:03 PM Attachment (71 downloads)

Quote:

O/K, on different websites, I'm finding statements of the earth being about 4.5 Billion years old. So it is very possible for the Canyon Diablo fall to be 30 to 40,000 years ago.

David,
In the different worlds of the sciences: Geologically the earth is ~4.5 billion years old and the Big Bang Paradigm occurred just under 14 billion years ago (opinions still vary somewhat), cosmologically. So, yes the Canyon Diablo/ Meteor-Barringer Crater event could have happened thirty - forty thousand years ago and could have been witnessed by the local primitive people of that time and area, assuming they had arrived at that time. Hopefully no one was near ground zero.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/11/041118104010.htm

Davio R.

Edited by sealevel (07/03/12 02:32 PM)

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Dick Lipke
professor emeritus

Reged: 02/20/07

Loc: Marine City,Mich.

Re: Was Canyon Diablo witnessed 40K years ago? new

[Re: DavidC]
#5300739 - 07/03/12 02:23 PM

Quote:

O/K, on different websites, I'm finding statements of the earth being about 4.5 Billion years old. So it is very possible for the Canyon Diablo fall to be 30 to 40,000 years ago.

According to Wikipedia humans came long after the impact.
Check "Formation of the crater" first paragraph.

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_Crater

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peter scherff
sage

Reged: 07/11/06

Re: Was Canyon Diablo witnessed 40K years ago? new

[Re: sealevel]
#5300800 - 07/03/12 03:09 PM

Hi David,

My understanding is that the earliest evidence of humans in North America is from about 16,000 years ago. So there was no one to witness the impact. This begs the question: If a meteorite falls and no one is there to hear it doth it make a noise?

Peter

Post Extras:

sealevel
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 02/09/09

Loc: Florida

Re: Was Canyon Diablo witnessed 40K years ago? new

[Re: peter scherff]
#5300904 - 07/03/12 04:28 PM

Quote:

Hi David,

My understanding is that the earliest evidence of humans in North America is from about 16,000 years ago. So there was no one to witness the impact. This begs the question: If a meteorite falls and no one is there to hear it doth it make a noise?

Peter

Hi David, Peter & Dick,
This debate has been going on for literally decades. It makes one wonder about the social science of Anthropology and the science of Archaeology.

Here are a few more for you all.
http://www.ontarioarchaeology.on.ca/summary/first.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070222155645.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/11/041118104010.htm

You guys tell me who's correct. Myself, I'd like to think there were Pre-Clovis bands wandering around Arizona who did witness the impact event. Can you imagine trying to carve that into a stone record?

Davio R.

Edited by sealevel (07/03/12 05:10 PM)

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Dick Lipke
professor emeritus

Reged: 02/20/07

Loc: Marine City,Mich.

Re: Was Canyon Diablo witnessed 40K years ago? new

[Re: sealevel]
#5300965 - 07/03/12 05:18 PM

This is all based on evidence found so far. I'm sure it won't be very long before new buried finds will even date human nomads,American Indian natives, many thousands of years earlier.

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edwincjones
Close Enough

Reged: 04/10/04

Re: Was Canyon Diablo witnessed 40K years ago? new

[Re: DavidC]
#5302838 - 07/04/12 07:46 PM

Quote:

I ......... Are there any suggestions that the Native American peoples around the time of the fall might have witnessed the fall, like in Hieroglyphs? (paintings or other art)
Thanks, David

Interesting question, but impossible to answer.
If people were in the area, probably few and far between;
and the meaning of rock art is not clear cut.

edj

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bob71741
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 02/16/08

Re: Was Canyon Diablo witnessed 40K years ago? new

[Re: edwincjones]
#5304180 - 07/05/12 06:40 PM

"I ......... Are there any suggestions that the Native American peoples around the time of the fall might have witnessed the fall, like in Hieroglyphs? (paintings or other art)
Thanks, David
Interesting question, but impossible to answer.
If people were in the area, probably few and far between;
and the meaning of rock art is not clear cut."

Prehistoric Astronomy in the Southwest (Malville&Putnam) indicates that Anasazi astronomers were basically sun and moon watchers practicing horizon astronomy to support their agricultural efforts. No mention of meteor or comet "rock art" is found even though Halley's Comet in 1066 frightened some Europeans and The Crab Nebula was visible in the daytime in 1054; so, astronomical events 30-40K years earlier may have had a similar effect, if someone was here to watch them.

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Dick Lipke
professor emeritus

Reged: 02/20/07

Loc: Marine City,Mich.

Re: Was Canyon Diablo witnessed 40K years ago? new

[Re: bob71741]
#5315607 - 07/13/12 08:55 AM

We are getting closer,
looking at nearly 14,500 years ago of early Americans,

www.npr.org/2012/07/13/156685336/in-ancient-ore-dump-clues-to-first-americans?ft=1&f=1001

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jbtaylor
sage

Reged: 02/11/10

Loc: Virginia

Re: Was Canyon Diablo witnessed 40K years ago? new

[Re: Dick Lipke]
#5318292 - 07/15/12 12:35 AM

Although new evidence indicates that humans were here before the Clovis times, it is very unlikely that they were here to witness the Canyon Diablo event. The oldest projectile points that I am aware of are the Lake Mohave points dated to around 13,200 BP and Meadowcroft dates back around 16,000 BP I believe. Either way it was way after Canyon Diablo. But I think there were indigenous people in Australia when Henbury craters were formed. That must have been intense!

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Dick Lipke
professor emeritus

Reged: 02/20/07

Loc: Marine City,Mich.

Re: Was Canyon Diablo witnessed 40K years ago? new

[Re: jbtaylor]
#5318570 - 07/15/12 09:04 AM

Quote:

Although new evidence indicates that humans were here before the Clovis times, it is very unlikely that they were here to witness the Canyon Diablo event. The oldest projectile points that I am aware of are the Lake Mohave points dated to around 13,200 BP and Meadowcroft dates back around 16,000 BP I believe. Either way it was way after Canyon Diablo. But I think there were indigenous people in Australia when Henbury craters were formed. That must have been intense!

I know it's very unlikely or even impossible any humans were around when the crater was formed, I only attempted to say that discoveries of evidence dating humans occupied the Americas seems to keep going further back all the time.In other words "were getting closer".

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jbtaylor
sage

Reged: 02/11/10

Loc: Virginia

Re: Was Canyon Diablo witnessed 40K years ago? [Re: Dick Lipke]
#5319362 - 07/15/12 08:29 PM

Absolutely, and it's fascinating stuff Dick.

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