Refractor6
Post Laureate
Reged: 10/20/04
Loc: Vancouver B.C. , Canada
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Re: Please help me spend money for my new Tec 160Fl
[Re: johnnyha]
#5327571 - 07/20/12 10:20 PM
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Yes tripod height and a solid feel are critical with this larger apos...by the way how much does the OTA weigh with all the extras on it? How long is it?
A solid mount and legs that gets it off the ground to a decent height makes for a happy observer 
I got lucky with my 6" apo triplet due to its f/7 focal length. A NEQ6 and 2"steel legs makes it as solid as a rock in the field for the 37 lbs OTA on top and up at a decent height too for zenith observing with my adjustable stool. A longer scope of the same weight wouldn't be as perfect a combo I suspect in regards to the mount.
Good luck and take your time doing your research for getting it just right 
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Kent10
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/08/12
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Re: Please help me spend money for my new Tec 160Fl
[Re: Refractor6]
#5327579 - 07/20/12 10:24 PM
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The scope weighs 24 lbs with nothing on it--not sure with stuff on it. It is 39.4" dew shield retracted and F7.
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Refractor6
Post Laureate
Reged: 10/20/04
Loc: Vancouver B.C. , Canada
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Re: Please help me spend money for my new Tec 160Fl
[Re: Kent10]
#5327594 - 07/20/12 10:31 PM
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The scope weighs 24 lbs with nothing on it--not sure with stuff on it. It is 39.4" dew shield retracted and F7.
Sounds to me like you won't have to go "ultra beefy" then to find a good match...opens up the options in the mid range mount requirements {for mid range price too}.
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Kent10
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/08/12
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Re: Please help me spend money for my new Tec 160Fl
[Re: Refractor6]
#5327731 - 07/21/12 01:02 AM Attachment (28 downloads)
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Went for a walk. Came back and the used Mach 1 has sold. Might do a 180 and am really thinking now I might start with the DM-6 and get the GEM later. Will think about it some more. My family is going on holiday for a while but I will be back at night. It will give me time to think things through. If I don't make a decision I won't even be able to use the scope when it arrives.  I will need to think of the tripod to go with it then too. The G-11 HD seems good with the 12" extension and would offer lots of flexibility. Discmounts also has their own 8" extension. I enclosed a pic with a Tec 180fl.
I also have to look at the wood tripods Johnny recommended and think ahead to when I might get the GEM. Someone sent me privately a pic of the 160fl on a G-11/12" extension and DM-6 and it had counterweights on the side. Has anyone seen this or is it custom work. He says it is really stable with the weights.
Thanks.
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Kent10
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/08/12
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Re: Please help me spend money for my new Tec 160Fl
[Re: Kent10]
#5327770 - 07/21/12 02:36 AM
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I am really getting excited thinking about the DM-6. I have been reading a little more about it and Sky Commander. I won't have a lot of time now to research because we are going on our vacation for 1.5 weeks. Can anyone tell me what I should get for the DM-6 to get started. I would like the Sky Commander but don't quite understand exactly how it works yet.
DM-6 Head only
8" DM-6 tilt-in saddle
Dovetail (will get the 12" from Tec)
18" handle (not sure)
DM-6 to G-11 tripod adapter plate (if I go with the G-11 tripod)
TeleVue Starbeam angle mounting plate (not sure yet, have to look into it more, Rex recommended it.)
DM-6 Eyepiece Tray (this might be nice)
DM-6 Eyepiece/Computer Tray Sky Commander mounting plate (not sure)
Top Mount DSC Shelf (not sure)
DM-6 Encoder kit only (I assume they install this if ordered with the head)
Add Horizontal Marks (???)
Sky Commander XP-4 Computer DSC
Extra Wrench (???)
Anything else besides the tripod that I still need to decide on.
It looks like this is adding up too but nowhere near the Mach 1. I'll have to spend some time looking over this but if anyone has recommendations on what to get with the DM-6 that would be great.
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mark8888
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/24/10
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Re: Please help me spend money for my new Tec 160Fl
[Re: Kent10]
#5327819 - 07/21/12 05:23 AM
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I am really getting excited thinking about the DM-6. I have been reading a little more about it and Sky Commander. I won't have a lot of time now to research because we are going on our vacation for 1.5 weeks. Can anyone tell me what I should get for the DM-6 to get started. I would like the Sky Commander but don't quite understand exactly how it works yet.
You might also want to consider something called the Nexus. I use it with a TEC 140, DM-6 mount, Berlebach Planet tripod, and an iPad. It's an excellent combination. I wrote about it at the following link if you are interested... complete with blurry photo!
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5232235/page/3/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1
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Svezda
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 06/01/07
Loc: Texas
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Re: Please help me spend money for my new Tec 160Fl
[Re: Kent10]
#5328101 - 07/21/12 11:30 AM
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Thanks BWAZ. That is one reason I wanted the 160fl over the 160ed. It is so compact and really not heavy for 160. I should be able to manage it. Of course you pay for it.
Those binoviewers must be amazing because so many like theirs. I might have to consider it sooner rather than later. Thanks again and thanks for the pic.
I got the 160ED mainly because for the sacrifice of accepting a six inch longer OTA I saved $4500 and also got better performance from my eyepieces (f/7 vs. f/8 for the ED). Since I am a visual observer, eyepiece performance is important. Some of my eyepieces don't do so well at f/7 in my TEC140, such as my Zeiss aspheric 'ortho' (not an ortho but that's how Markus marketed it). You'd think f/7 would not tax most eyepieces but for some it is an issue. Also, the color correction of these scopes is so good, that I wouldn't notice any real difference by going with the almost five thousand dollar more expensive fluorite version. I see no false color with my 140 or 160EDs. I'd see more color due to atmospheric refraction than I ever would due to the ED design, enough to mask anything visible due to the non-FL glass, I'd bet  . I don't observe bright, pure white stars at zenith at 500x, so for me the 140 and 160ED scopes are great.
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Svezda
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 06/01/07
Loc: Texas
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Re: Please help me spend money for my new Tec 160Fl
[Re: Texas]
#5328139 - 07/21/12 11:53 AM
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G11 - I have one. Ever try to talk to someone at Losmandy? Ever look for Gemini 2 documentation? Gemini 1 IMO is well documented but it's not what I'd call user intuitive. However, there is also a very large user community that is just incredible when help is needed and that in itself goes a long way to make up for the shortcomings. Also, in truth, it's a very good mount and an outstanding tripod. A true bargain when considering prices. But to really make it click you need an upgraded worm and then there are the Maxon motors. End result: reported performance that matches the AP lineup (although not the carrying capacity). But in my opinion: the G11/Gemini is a hobby within a hobby.
If I were going to do it over I'd go with a Mach 1 or if you think you'll need the capacity, the 900. I have reached an age where I find time to be more important than money.
from a fellow G-11 owner - this is great advice. I'd spend the extra for a Mach-1 to get great service, superb looking mount, dependability, easy to reach someone if you had a problem. I gave up on tweaking my G-11 as everyone does who owns one because I don't have the expertise or the time or the inclination to mess around with it.
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Svezda
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 06/01/07
Loc: Texas
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Re: Please help me spend money for my new Tec 160Fl
[Re: johnnyha]
#5328167 - 07/21/12 12:11 PM
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If the Eagle pier is problematic then you are overpaying for this mount. You can always get a better deal on a different used Mach 1 setup, they almost always go for a lot less. A new Mach 1 mount is $6350, you could have that today and get the Berlebach for around $900 or the Losmandy tripod for less. Maybe that doesn't include counterweights? Anyway I wouldn't get a used Mach 1 for almost new price with a tripod that you then have to work around. I agree that two Eagle pier extensions stacked would probably be less than optimal.
I use an EM200 mount that I found on Astromart with tall Tak tripod for $1800, it was like five blocks away and I went and picked it up. That tripod would carry the TEC160FL for visual. It's not for sale but, I'm just saying take your time, there are a lot of options, you don't have to pay over $7K used. 
I have a TEC160ED. My solution to mount it, which was overkill considering my use for visual only (and I paid a lot for this combination): a used AP900 (circa 1999) non-GoTo model on a beautiful like-new ATS 48-inch pier that matches the AP cream color perfectly. This would be a great astroimaging setup but is quite cumbersome to set up, esp. for visual only (I'm really referring to the pier here, due to the difficulty of leveling it).
These piers are superb but have very limited vertical adjustment for leveling and none for any significant height adjustment such as a Losmandy, Celestron, or Berlebach tripod would have. The AP900 is heavier than needed for my intended use, but it is fairly easy to set up. I leave both RA and dec pieces together in a box. It isn't difficult to lift as a unit up to the ATS pier head. It takes all of ten seconds, since the pieces are always joined. Another couple minutes to put on the nuts attaching mount to pier but considerably more time leveling the pier and getting rough alignment on Polaris and then more time if I want to align to the pole more accurately.
If I did it again I'd probably go with a Mach-1 + my existing Losmandy tripod to save some money but I do love the way this setup looks compared to any other options I've seen. Also, the 900 is a dream to use except for the clunky older style hand control, not light and easy like the G-11 control which I can use with one hand.
I forgot to mention - one thing that would really help the ATS pier as well as the Eagle would be fine adjustment screws on the tripod feet for leveling - but the ATS pier 'feet' are simply 'stubs' with no adjustment. You have to go through a trial and error exercise with the adjustable 'turnbuckle' (?) type hand screws attached to each leg.
Edited by Svezda (07/21/12 12:29 PM)
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Svezda
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 06/01/07
Loc: Texas
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Re: Please help me spend money for my new Tec 160Fl
[Re: Kent10]
#5328176 - 07/21/12 12:16 PM
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I was thinking of getting the Tec finder bracket but my scope actually comes with an AP finder bracket (no finder). I know it must be good quality but would I like this over the Tec. Everyone seems to like the Tec bracket.
The TEC bracket looks very cool and works well - using two screws is so much easier than using six to align your finder. It can be a little hard to get used to - you may not like the 'springiness' of the TEC mount - the finder can move around a little on the mount. I didn't like having to drill and tap a nice finder for the special TEC finder mount (you only pay s/h to and from TEC for them to do this).
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jmiele
Patron Saint?
Reged: 12/04/10
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Re: Please help me spend money for my new Tec 160Fl
[Re: Svezda]
#5328220 - 07/21/12 12:40 PM
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A Tak EM-200 would be nice as well.. Still the Mach 1 is the most elegant solution. Joe
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tomcody
professor emeritus
Reged: 07/06/08
Loc: Titusville, Florida
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Re: Please help me spend money for my new Tec 160Fl
[Re: Kent10]
#5328244 - 07/21/12 12:55 PM
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I am really getting excited thinking about the DM-6. I have been reading a little more about it and Sky Commander. I won't have a lot of time now to research because we are going on our vacation for 1.5 weeks. Can anyone tell me what I should get for the DM-6 to get started. I would like the Sky Commander but don't quite understand exactly how it works yet.
DM-6 Head only
8" DM-6 tilt-in saddle
Dovetail (will get the 12" from Tec)
18" handle (not sure)
DM-6 to G-11 tripod adapter plate (if I go with the G-11 tripod)
TeleVue Starbeam angle mounting plate (not sure yet, have to look into it more, Rex recommended it.)
DM-6 Eyepiece Tray (this might be nice)
DM-6 Eyepiece/Computer Tray Sky Commander mounting plate (not sure)
Top Mount DSC Shelf (not sure)
DM-6 Encoder kit only (I assume they install this if ordered with the head)
Add Horizontal Marks (???)
Sky Commander XP-4 Computer DSC
Extra Wrench (???)
Anything else besides the tripod that I still need to decide on.
It looks like this is adding up too but nowhere near the Mach 1. I'll have to spend some time looking over this but if anyone has recommendations on what to get with the DM-6 that would be great.
The sky Commander can be used by itself (you use it that way when starting up to align it- point at two stars and done. then connected to an IPhone, IPad, Android, or about any lap top planetarium program, sync to the program and then push to targets, just like go to with you supplying the power. Very easy to use!
You have a good list, handle optional on such a long scope, eyepiece tray optional-nice but makes a bigger package to move or pack.
One thing you should know Tom (owner of Disk Mount) is on vacation until September, no orders until then. 
Rex
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johnnyha
Postmaster
Reged: 11/12/06
Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
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Re: Please help me spend money for my new Tec 160Fl
[Re: tomcody]
#5328266 - 07/21/12 01:09 PM
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If you are thinking about the DM6 new you do not need an extra wrench, 18" handle, or any eyepiece trays yet. In fact depending on the tripod the eyepiece tray may be redundant.
Keep an eye out this weekend in the classifieds, these DM6 setups show up frequently, and you could save a lot of money.
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
Reged: 02/28/06
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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Re: Please help me spend money for my new Tec 160Fl
[Re: Kent10]
#5328655 - 07/21/12 06:12 PM
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The thing is, the TEC 160FL will be a supreme scope optically. It'll suck up as much magnification as you care t throw at it on s steady night, without a whimper. To get the most out of a precision optic I feel a driven mount and a decent observing chair, both, are essential. It's amazing how much data your eyes lose when you have to nudge a scope or rock when standing and slightly alter your eye position.
A premium refractor is a scalpel not a blunderbuss. Slap a biger light bucket on the DM-6 and put that TEC on a driven mount. It will pay big dividends.
Regards,
Jim
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Kent10
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/08/12
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Re: Please help me spend money for my new Tec 160Fl
[Re: mark8888]
#5329201 - 07/22/12 01:57 AM
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I am really getting excited thinking about the DM-6. I have been reading a little more about it and Sky Commander. I won't have a lot of time now to research because we are going on our vacation for 1.5 weeks. Can anyone tell me what I should get for the DM-6 to get started. I would like the Sky Commander but don't quite understand exactly how it works yet.
You might also want to consider something called the Nexus. I use it with a TEC 140, DM-6 mount, Berlebach Planet tripod, and an iPad. It's an excellent combination. I wrote about it at the following link if you are interested... complete with blurry photo!
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5232235/page/3/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1
Thanks for the great review of the Nexus Mark. Looking at the ipad doesn't ruin your night vision? I guess it is mostly dark.
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Kent10
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/08/12
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Re: Please help me spend money for my new Tec 160Fl
[Re: Svezda]
#5329204 - 07/22/12 02:02 AM
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Thanks BWAZ. That is one reason I wanted the 160fl over the 160ed. It is so compact and really not heavy for 160. I should be able to manage it. Of course you pay for it.
Those binoviewers must be amazing because so many like theirs. I might have to consider it sooner rather than later. Thanks again and thanks for the pic.
I got the 160ED mainly because for the sacrifice of accepting a six inch longer OTA I saved $4500 and also got better performance from my eyepieces (f/7 vs. f/8 for the ED). Since I am a visual observer, eyepiece performance is important. Some of my eyepieces don't do so well at f/7 in my TEC140, such as my Zeiss aspheric 'ortho' (not an ortho but that's how Markus marketed it). You'd think f/7 would not tax most eyepieces but for some it is an issue. Also, the color correction of these scopes is so good, that I wouldn't notice any real difference by going with the almost five thousand dollar more expensive fluorite version. I see no false color with my 140 or 160EDs. I'd see more color due to atmospheric refraction than I ever would due to the ED design, enough to mask anything visible due to the non-FL glass, I'd bet . I don't observe bright, pure white stars at zenith at 500x, so for me the 140 and 160ED scopes are great.
Yes, probably very little difference between the 2, maybe none? for all but the brightest objects. Except cost of course. I thought too that with the 160fl I could get away with a smaller mount that would be more portable and less expensive. Now I am considering the Mach 1 so cost is already up there. I do want a stable set up though.
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Kent10
professor emeritus
Reged: 05/08/12
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Re: Please help me spend money for my new Tec 160Fl
[Re: Kent10]
#5329209 - 07/22/12 02:10 AM
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Thanks everyone. I am away on holiday now so just have a couple hours at night to research all of your ideas. The wood tripods are lighter than the metal ones. But from what I gather they are sturdier with better dampening times. Is that correct? I guess it matters which you are comparing. How about the Berlebach Planet? How does that compare to the Losmandy HD for example. Or what about Discmounts’ DM-6 Tall Ash Wood tripod? It seems the Discmounts tripod is not adjustable and is set to one height. Is that right? The Rob Miller looks good but also is not adjustable and that concerns me. I guess you would have to know what height you like first before ordering one. But couldn’t that change depending on set up.
I really do think I need to find a tripod that will work with the DM-6 and the Mach 1 so it would need to be adjustable across a large range. Then start with the tripod and DM-6 maybe because it is cheaper and then keep my eye out for a great condition Mach 1 used. Wow 2 mounts. What do I say to my wife  ) At least only 1 tripod will help.
Thanks, Rex for letting me know about Tom out of town. That’s a drag. Might have to go used or wait.
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mark8888
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/24/10
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Re: Please help me spend money for my new Tec 160Fl
[Re: Kent10]
#5329241 - 07/22/12 02:56 AM
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Thanks for the great review of the Nexus Mark. Looking at the ipad doesn't ruin your night vision? I guess it is mostly dark.
You're welcome, it really is awesome. As far as night vision goes, to be honest there's so much light pollution where I am that if I set SkySafari in the mode where everything is red, I find that that's good enough for me. However, some people who use it at dark sites do still find it to be too bright, and there are ongoing debates in the "Astronomy Software & Computers" forum about the best solution. From what I can tell the most effective way to deal with it seems to be using something called Rubylith to cover the screen. I haven't tried it though.
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mark8888
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/24/10
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Re: Please help me spend money for my new Tec 160Fl
[Re: Kent10]
#5329243 - 07/22/12 02:58 AM
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How about the Berlebach Planet? How does that compare to the Losmandy HD for example. Or what about Discmounts’ DM-6 Tall Ash Wood tripod? It seems the Discmounts tripod is not adjustable and is set to one height. Is that right?
I think it is right. The Planet is extremely solid, really nice to look at, and adjustable. Something I really like about it is that it can get down very low. I find that helpful sometimes when observing in a situation with background lights etc. It's a main reason I chose it. I don't think the AP wood tripod, for example, is able to be adjusted to quite such a low height.
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CounterWeight
Postmaster
Reged: 10/05/08
Loc: Cloudyopolis, OR.
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Re: Please help me spend money for my new Tec 160Fl
[Re: mark8888]
#5329514 - 07/22/12 09:49 AM
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Congratulations on nabbing that TEC 160FL! 
I also own the ED version - and haven't looked through the FL 160, but wanted to suggest getting the best orthos you can for planetary - though exit pupil maybe a bit small the 4mm ZAOII is amazing when skies allow in my 160ED. My ED variant is clean enough that I call it an eyepiece tester.
Another vote for the A-P Mach1GTO mount. I'm on a pier, but keep looking at the Rob Miller tripods for portable... I haven't bought the eagle for reasons mentioned in the other posts here. If you land a Mach1GTO with the base mod depending on your reach you may appreciate it a lot - or for critical imaging PA even more. The hand control and control box / interconnects are very robust and easy to use (as is the mount in all ways), the built in object catalogs are really nice for IMO whatever your observing style is.
I have the baader 8*50 finder on the TEC bracket - I like my Tak finder scope much more(and don't personally like the Baader very much but it does do the job) but the TEC bracket is a great little piece of engineering and IMO this bracket I prefer to anything else on the market by a large margin. As Jim mentioned you might not be spending much time looking through the finder, I sure don't I believe TEC will mod any finder scope to their bracket.
Again congratulations on your purchase and it sounds like you are asking all the right questions on getting it fitted out.
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