margin_walker
professor emeritus
Reged: 07/25/05
Posts: 638
Loc: Waterfoot, England.
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Hello good people of the world and DSLR Gurus,
I'm confuzzled with current DSLRs on the market. Actually, I was fine when the Digital Rebel was in the marketplace, and then ok when the Digital Rebel XT (is that what it's called in the US?) came out. However, those pesky DSLR gods have blessed us consumers with more choice and Nikon has now released the D50 in the UK, after releasing the D70s to replace the D70 (and the amazing difference is?!). 
Dare I even ask the dreaded Canon Verses Nikon question? (I don't want to start a war!)
So, to stop myself waffling even further and losing more of my audience I'l get to the point. . . I want a DSLR which will be used to take standard mundane pictures of goats etc but also used for astrophotgraphy (which rules out any form of modified digital rebel). And the choice I have, as I see it, is the Canon 350D and the Nikon D70/D50.
Do any of you helpful people use any of these cameras for astro work? I'm leaning towards the 350D because there's a good price deal in England at the moment, it has some good features which the Nikon doesn't and it has 8 squillion megapixels as opposed to 6. 
Also, I understand (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that Nikon produces NEF raw images and hasn't licensed these (or something) so importing them into Photoshop is a pain, and the Canon is lighter.
Is the 350D a good choice?
-------------------- You are not what you own.
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Ralph McIntosh
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/26/03
Posts: 908
Loc: Hanau/Germany
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Yes, the 350D IS the choice.
-------------------- http://home.arcor.de/ralph.mcintosh/
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Corn
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/27/04
Posts: 2198
Loc: Sweden
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I´d say it depends what you will use it for the most. Daytime then D70 has an edge. For astro work the 300/350D is better. Having said that both cameras do very good either way. If it was up to me (and I had no old lenses for the D70) I´ll get the 350D .
Cheers
-------------------- Canon 300D (mod)
8" f/5 Skywatcher, EQ6 Pro, HEQ5 and Barn door mount.
http://web.telia.com/~u18524382/
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Dennis Sakva
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 10/19/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kiev, Ukraine
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What I've seen is that 350D has a much better dark noise than 300D. But it has smaller pixel size. I wonder if it has smaller dynamic range because of that.
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pollux
   
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 6185
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this site provides intersive review on all digital camreas included those you mentioned.
http://www.dpreview.com
No astrophoto test unfortunately but the other test they do really show the goods and bads of each camera
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Dennis Sakva
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 10/19/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kiev, Ukraine
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Pollux dpreview is my favorite site and forum for daylight photos, unfortunately it is rather useless for astrophotography.
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Rammysherriff
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/26/04
Posts: 1967
Loc: Lancs, UK.
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I plumped for the EOS350D because of the bargains too.
Daytime use - brilliant and foolproof Astro use - so far brilliant and foolproof
I can't compare it to any other models, but basically it does its own darks on any exposure over 30 seconds, and has mirror lockup if you want/need it. It's not too bulky on the scope, so no loss of focus problems, and the software bundle includes a facility to download your captures into a pc/laptop as you shoot them so you can achieve focus - ie no immeidate need to start splashing the hard earned on DSLR Focus and the like.
Any q's PM me and we can discuss further.
-------------------- Simon.
One man and his shed: http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb288/Astroshed/
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margin_walker
professor emeritus
Reged: 07/25/05
Posts: 638
Loc: Waterfoot, England.
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Thanks very much for your responses. I found the dpreview website - amazingly comprehensive. The graphs they publish on luminance and RGB noise are quite revealing!
I'm not too bothered on a daylight compromise because my pictures are the usual mundane (but easthetically good! LOL!) stuff of waterfalls, English landscapes, gnomes (old CN joke!) and things like that. Ooh, actually I would love to start photographing lightning.
Rammysherriff, you'll have PM soon (I've had a bottle of wine but think I can still type okay).
-------------------- You are not what you own.
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Oldfield
Postmaster
Reged: 03/20/02
Posts: 5218
Loc: Hong Kong
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we will soon have Minolta 5D... it supports ISO 3200... question is, does that means it's cleaner so that the manufacturer can push it further?
of course, no real testing were seen.
-------------------- The Home Astronomer from a city where most people are proud of the light pollution
Toys: C5, Ranger, Borg 45ED II, SM40/BF10, Unistar Light, TG-SP II, LXD55, ToUCam Pro, DMK 31AF03, Canon 10x30 IS, Pentax PCF III 10x50...
My observation log and ideas My General Blog
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Ty Williams
super member
Reged: 05/13/05
Posts: 186
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Magrin,
First of all, don't get caught up in megapixels. Advertisers have done a masterfull job of connecting megapixels to quality in the public's mind. It's an outright lie. The megapixel count solely determines how large of a print can be made, it has nothing to do with quality. A 6MP camera will easily print up to a 12x18 (I think a Super B in your language without work in Photoshop. From my camera, I've made fine prints up to 20x30 inches. Unless you want to decorate the side of a bus, 6MP is enough. In fact, there are downsides to increasing the pixel count while holding the physical size of sensor constant. Increasing pixel count without increasing sensor size causes the photosites to be physically smaller. Smaller photosites are less sensitive to light, more prone to bloom, and more likely to show chromatic aberration. Manufacturers usually compensate for the reduction in sensitivity to light by increasing the voltage gradient (gain) across the chip. This increases noise dramatically. Ask yourself if you really want the extra resolution. It may be worth it, it may not.
On the topic of noise, Canon and Nikon handle noise very differently. Noise increases as you increase the equivalent ISO (gain) of the chip. Nikon has taken the stance of "Noise happens. Our customers are smart enough to know this. We'll deliver the best possible image, noise included, and let the customer figure out what to do about it." Canon took a different tack and said "Noise happens. Our customers hate noise. As the noise increases, we'll blur the image slightly so the customer can't see the noise." Neither approach in inherently wrong, but you need to know what you're getting into.
The D70s is the most well rounded camera. It has the most useful feature set in the real world. However, it does not have mirror lock-up which is very useful for astrophotography. The D70s has the easiest control system. This is largely due to all the most commonly used settings having a direct control on the outside of the camera body. You will rarely have to delve into the menu system. There's also an in-camera help system for the few times you have to get into the menus. This is one of the few cameras that you stand a reasonable chance of using without having to read the manual. Used for astrophotography, I have thus far been quite satisfied with the D70s. The D70s is also overwhelmingly favored by people with medium to large hands. It's also the most comfortable when shooting with large lenses. The difference between the D70 and the D70s is solely the size of the rear LCD screen. The D70s has a 2" diagonal screen vs. the 1.8" diagonal sceeen on the D70. You'll pay a minimum of $100 more for the D70s. The D70s also comes with a plastic protector for the LCD screen. This means that you spend $13 to replace a little plastic bit rather than $300 to replace the LCD sceen when you scratch something across the back (and you will). With regards to NEF encryption: This issue affects the D2x only, you don't need to worry about it. In fact, all camera manufacturers obsfucate the RAW data in some matter. Adobe used to reverse-enginneer it to provide compatibility. However, they received legal advice to stop doing so. Again, the D70s is not affected by this. The lens it comes kitted with (18-70mm AF-S DX) is superb.
The D50 is, electronically, VERY similar to the D70s. On the spec sheet, the D50 has a slightly dumber autofocus and autoexposure system. In the real world, I've yet to see a difference. The D50 is quite a bit smaller than the D70s. The D50 will be preferred by people with medium sized hands. It's screen does not have a protector. I have not done any astrophotography with this camera yet, but it's imaging system is identical to that of the D70s. In normal use, it works every bit as well as its bigger brother. Pretty much everything that I said about the D70s applies to the D50.
The Rebel XT (350D in Europe) is very small. Really, that's the first thing you notice about it. If you have normal or larger sized hands, it will probably be awkward. When you attach a large lens to the camera, it becomes outright hard to hold as the center of gravity is WAY out in front of your hands. The interface is awkward, it seems to require more button presses to do any one thing than it really ought to. Daylight performance is excellent. The auto-systems work well and are reliable. The menu system is a labyrinthine nightmare. Astrophotographic performance is good, as would be expected based on the performance of it's siblings. Be aware that it's shutter makes an extremely odd noise. Think mechanical cocker spaniel barking. This is a problem because when you fire the shutter, everyone will turn and look at you. People ignore camera sounds because they know what the sound is. No one knows what the heck that sound just was.
The facts are facts, but the judgments based on them are mine and those of my customers. In the last year, I've sold about 500 DSLRs. About 80% of them were Nikon D70's. Take that for what you will. For my money, it's D70s for all-around performance. If I had the money, I'd take a long, hard look at the Canon 20Da.
Feel free to ask me anything you want about cameras and photography. I'm new to astronomy, but I know more about photography and its associated equipment than I can admit in polite company
-------------------- Meade 826 8" f/6 Newt
Meade LXD75 Mount with Autostar
EquinoX on MacOS X
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P_Nut
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/21/03
Posts: 659
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia, Europe
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Quote:
On the topic of noise, Canon and Nikon handle noise very differently. Noise increases as you increase the equivalent ISO (gain) of the chip. Nikon has taken the stance of "Noise happens. Our customers are smart enough to know this. We'll deliver the best possible image, noise included, and let the customer figure out what to do about it." Canon took a different tack and said "Noise happens. Our customers hate noise. As the noise increases, we'll blur the image slightly so the customer can't see the noise."
Right on the contrary. Canon 300D, for example does not have noise reduction ( a good thing, you get the real RAW), while the Nikon D70 has it and you cant turn it off (except in mode 3).
-------------------- www.vesolje.gajba.net
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Ty Williams
super member
Reged: 05/13/05
Posts: 186
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P_Nut, We're getting into semantics here. The D70 has both a hardware-level noise suppression algorythm (however, it is not gaussian-blur based) and a user-selectable post-capture noise suppression routine. The hardware-level is obviously not able to be disabled. The Canon products initiate a slight gaussian blur at the hardware level as they ramp up the gain. To my knowledge, there's no user-selectable noise-suppression on the 300D. If you want to see how this works, get a USAF Test Target and watch the spatial resolving power drop as the the ISO is increased on the Canon.
As long as we're talking about these tiny, tiny details, the Canon also implements stronger anti-aliasing to prevent moire, which negatively impacts spatial resolving power.
Does any of this really matter? Who knows. I'm inclined to say no, but I still buy the camera that most closely fits my ethos. I recommend the OP does the same.
-------------------- Meade 826 8" f/6 Newt
Meade LXD75 Mount with Autostar
EquinoX on MacOS X
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Corn
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/27/04
Posts: 2198
Loc: Sweden
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Interesting, I never heard about any gussian blur on Canon cameras (are we talking about RAWs or jpgs?). As far as I know the AA-filter is actually combined with the IR filter (and nothing can be done about it exept physically removing it). The RAWs are saved with full 12 bit resolution (36 bit RGB) The D70 does a median filter on the RAWs before saving them to the CF card (unless you power the camera off while its doeing the "dark" frame with the NR option on) and is not good for pin point stuff like stars. Also it does not save the complete (linear 12 bit) data but does a logarithmic scaling/compression (effectivly 9.5 bits) mostly notable in the high lights. This actually makes it worse if you have a bright sky (like some LP) that will push the black level of the shot towards the high end and leave you with less dynamic range in the shot.
These two things with the D70 makes it somewhat less good for astro work in my eyes unless you have a really dark sky and want to power the camera on/off after every shot .
Cheers
-------------------- Canon 300D (mod)
8" f/5 Skywatcher, EQ6 Pro, HEQ5 and Barn door mount.
http://web.telia.com/~u18524382/
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margin_walker
professor emeritus
Reged: 07/25/05
Posts: 638
Loc: Waterfoot, England.
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Ty Williams and Corn,
thanks very much for your thoughts. It's actually good to hear an opinion on the D70 as everybody seems to rate the digital rebel. Corn, your qualifying views on the camera for astro work are ones I have not had explained before, so thanks for that.
I will no doubt have more questions when I have delved a little deeper into this. 
I'm actually laughing, I thought I had my mind made up and now it seems I don't.
-------------------- You are not what you own.
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Ty Williams
super member
Reged: 05/13/05
Posts: 186
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Yeah, all the engineering departments have interesting little secrets. You're correct, the AA filter is a part of the chip. Nikon chose a very minimal ones. Leads to tack sharp images and a propensity to show moire on high-contrast, high-frequency repetitive detail. Canon's is MUCH heavier handed (I'm not sure if this is actually a Canon vs Nikon ethos thing or a CCD vs CMOS design compromise thing) leading to softer images and much greater resistance to moire. Does it matter? Well, with most commonly owned lenses... no, the MTF of the lens is poor enough you'll never see what happens on the chips... shoot all high end primes... well, now that will be and interesting day.
Oddly, I live in TERRIBLY light polluted skies and have not yet seen the issues you speak of. Then again, I'm pretty new at the astro bit of astrophotography. Regarding the "compression" of the files: The compression is lossless. The full dynamic range is available to well-engineered raw converters like ACR or Capture One. Don't know how cheap programs handle it. I would assume you feel the median filter would lead to missing stars, an effect which I've not seen at all. /me shrugs
-------------------- Meade 826 8" f/6 Newt
Meade LXD75 Mount with Autostar
EquinoX on MacOS X
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Corn
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 12/27/04
Posts: 2198
Loc: Sweden
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I have seen it on a few places on the net that nikons RAWs are not lossless. You probably would not notice this in day time shots but in astro shots this compression in combination with LP/bright sky will result in lower S/N and less resolution in the dynamic range.
You can read about the log scaling here if you like (about 2/3 down). Due to the log scaling you still have 12 bit dynamic range but you resolution in the high end get lowered due to that. http://www.astrosurf.org/buil/d70v10d/eval.htm
Cheers
-------------------- Canon 300D (mod)
8" f/5 Skywatcher, EQ6 Pro, HEQ5 and Barn door mount.
http://web.telia.com/~u18524382/
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AleX`G
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/29/06
Posts: 877
Loc: Scotland UK
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The lighter and smaller 350 might be an advantage if you are using it piggybacked on another telescope. For what its worth I love my 300D for daytime and astro use. I havnt compared it with other cameras side by side but in day time use the lens makes all the difference especially for wide angle. From what ive heard many people seem to think the 350 is the best in the series for astro use. My next dslr will most likely be a full frame one when they come down in price.
Alex
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Celestron/Vixen 102 f9.8
Vixen GP
Canon EF300mm f4L USM (non IS)
Canon 300D
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Never express yourself more clearly than you think. - Niels Bohr
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Thick_asa_Planck
Dark Sky Hunter
Reged: 09/04/04
Posts: 3341
Loc: UK
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I bought the 350D and never looked back, it is a fantastic all purpose camera, and can definately hold its own in astrophotography terms.
-------------------- It is often commonplace to leave the notation ambiguous - Anonymous
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Rat8bug
Pooh-Bah
   
Reged: 01/07/05
Posts: 1358
Loc: Michigan
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Well, I am a Nikon slappy I have D70, D50, and D40. The D40 with its low noise, simple layout, and smaller size and weight, is the best of the lot for imaging.
http://www.barrie-tao.com/wotriplet.html
Ciao...Barry
-------------------- Nikon D40/D50/D70 DSLR
WO 105mm Triplet APO
WO Zenithstar 66SD APO (Black 'n Blue)
WO 8 x 45mm APO Bino
UO 20 x 80mm Bino
Vixen 80SS Refractor
Orion 127mm Apex Maksutov
Vixen GP-DX with Skysensor 2000
SBIG STV and e-finder
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Shawn350
member
Reged: 05/10/07
Posts: 79
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Sounds like 350D for me!
-------------------- Shawn Hendrix
Vixen SXW
Vixen VMC200L
Santa Clarita, CA
Mt. Pinos, CA
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