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Astrophotography and Sketching >> Beginning and Intermediate Imaging

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Chris Purves
super member


Reged: 11/01/08

Loc: Wimbledon, London
Re: What FWHM can I hope for in central London ? new [Re: zerro1]
      #5342125 - 07/29/12 06:09 PM

Here are some results from tonight although I am not sure if I am any closer to an answer. Please feel free to jump in!

Here is a CCDInspector analysis for a 5sec image of somewhere in the MilkyWay....

[image]http://flic.kr/p/cFX5J5[/image]

And a 60 second one.

[image]http://flic.kr/p/cFX6b7[/image]


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Jared
Post Laureate
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Reged: 10/11/05

Loc: Piedmont, California, U.S.
Re: What FWHM can I hope for in central London ? new [Re: Chris Purves]
      #5342133 - 07/29/12 06:13 PM

O.K., a few things...

First, there is no reason you can't compare FWHM across different systems. That's the whole point. It's not going to be exact, of course, and is an indication of both the seeing and the quality/alignment/focus/cooling of your optical train. That's the whole point, of course. It incorporates everything that softens your images--both in your optics and in the sky itself. As you mentioned in one of your posts, you just need to use a star with a reasonable SNR that isn't near saturation. It's not exact--and you should probably sample values across several stars, but it will give you a good general result. Also keep in mind that, due to field curvature (even with a flattener), there will be some variation across the field.

Now, on to your issues...

Your stars show coma--it's very obvious in the luminance frames (which are binned 1x1) at 200% magnification. Stars are fan shaped across the field. The most likely cause is that the optical elements in your TOA's objective are not centered with respect to each other.

Another possibility is the same sort of decentering issue in the flattener. I'd recommend taking an exposure without the flattener in place and examine the most in-focus stars and see if they still show coma. If they do, then it's the objective. If not, it's the flattener.

This can't be a tracking issue. If it were a matter of bad tracking, you'd have rugby ball shaped stars, not fan shaped. If it were a focus issue or a result of spherical aberration, you'd have round stars that were bloated. If it were a polar alignment issue, you'd see field rotation as well as rugby ball shaped stars. If your camera weren't square to the optical axis, you'd see variations across the field with stars in one corner much worse than the other three corners.

Coma is quite distinctive, and is not intrinsic in refractors, so you have an optical problem.

Assuming you find the issue is in the objective, not the flattener, I'd recommend sending it back to your dealer for alignment and/or repair. If this is a new scope, I'd just ask for a replacement--let them do the alignment on their own time (assuming the dealer has ready access to a replacement--they may not).

One good thing... Once the alignment issue is resolved it is likely to be permanent. TOA's hold their alignment quite well. Yours may have had a severe blow in shipping, or it may have just somehow slipped through QA.

If this were a doublet design, I'd say you could go ahead and try to fix it yourself. But since it's a triplet, it's probably not a good idea.

By the way, this isn't a collimation issue in the traditional sense, so the push/pull screws on the front of the lens cell aren't going to help. Also, you should be able to see the issue visually as well. Just de-focus a bright star, and you should see that the Fresnel rings are not concentric. That's another way to confirm the problem.

Sorry, I know it's not good news. Hopefully, it's just a defective flattener that you can have replaced, but I think the objective is the more likely culprit.


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Jared
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Reged: 10/11/05

Loc: Piedmont, California, U.S.
Re: What FWHM can I hope for in central London ? new [Re: Jared]
      #5342143 - 07/29/12 06:21 PM

By the way, your coma is not all that severe, frankly, but this is high end equipment capable of producing first class results. You can expect better from it. I'm not certain how good or bad the seeing is in London, so I'm not certain what kind of resolution you will be able to achieve routinely, but the equipment itself is holding you back now, not the seeing, and that shouldn't be the case with a TOA. I suspect that if you can get the coma issue addressed you would have seen FWHM values in the samples you provided closer to 2.5 arc seconds--maybe even a bit better.

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Jared
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Reged: 10/11/05

Loc: Piedmont, California, U.S.
Re: What FWHM can I hope for in central London ? new [Re: Jared]
      #5342149 - 07/29/12 06:24 PM

One other thing... Don't worry too much about the light pollution while you are learning. You can get wonderful pictures of the "showcase" type objects even under severely light polluted skies. Until very recently, I was doing most of my LRGB imaging under magnitude 2.9 skies here in Oakland, CA. Are dark skies better? Of course. But that doesn't mean you can't get satisfying results from the city. Just don't expect to be imaging faint galaxies and such. As someone else mentioned, narrow band imaging could be your path as well. City lights make very little difference when imaging Ha, OIII, and SII.

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Chris Purves
super member


Reged: 11/01/08

Loc: Wimbledon, London
Re: What FWHM can I hope for in central London ? new [Re: Jared]
      #5342156 - 07/29/12 06:28 PM

Thanks Jared,

Oh dear. From what you say this sounds pretty bad.

Would you mind having a quick look at the 2 fits files in

http://www.wimbledonastro.com/astrofiles/20120729/

taken tonight just to confirm you still think the same.

If so I will try with the flattener removed but as you suggest if its the optics then I have some serious shipping to pay as I think these can only be fixed in Japan.

Chris


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Jared
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Reged: 10/11/05

Loc: Piedmont, California, U.S.
Re: What FWHM can I hope for in central London ? new [Re: Chris Purves]
      #5342197 - 07/29/12 06:47 PM Attachment (10 downloads)

Well, it sounds a lot worse than it is. Let's assume it's the objective, not the flattener (you need to confirm this, of course, by seeing if you get the same results without the flattener). If you had a doublet, you'd be able to fix it yourself easily enough. This is a triplet, though, and you don't have any way of telling which of the three elements is out of alignment. With a doublet, it doesn't matter which of the two you shift since you just need two elements aligned with respect to each other. With a triplet, though, two are probably already in alignment, so you need to shift the third one. Which one is out? That's why I'd say send it back for alignment or replacement. With a proper optical bench, it should be straightforward to adjust it. Without a bench, though...

I did look at the new files you provided. They have the same issue. I'm attaching a JPG of a 200% crop so you can see what I'm talking about. The "fan" shape at the top left of each star shouldn't be there. This is classic coma, and in a refractor it's generally caused by decentering of one of the elements.

It's possible that your dealer could fix this without sending it back to Japan. Depends on the dealer's skill set and their agreement with Takahashi--don't know whether Tak will let them do warranty work.

Definitely try out a picture without the flattener to confirm it's the objective. Just for the heck of it, I'd try a couple different orientations of the camera as well. If the "fan" shape rotates when you rotate the camera, and you have eliminated the flattener, then all that's left is the objective. I'm pretty confident in my diagnosis, though. It's a pretty common problem. Very frustrating, but as I mentioned, the fix should be permanent and this is not an indication of a lemon or anything like that. The scope probably just took a bad knock in shipping.


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tomcody
professor emeritus
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Reged: 07/06/08

Loc: Titusville, Florida
Re: What FWHM can I hope for in central London ? new [Re: Jared]
      #5343004 - 07/30/12 09:18 AM

You stated that the reducer was set to the correct metal distance, did you add aditional distance for the filters as shown on the QSI web site?
Rex


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netboy
member


Reged: 05/04/12

Re: What FWHM can I hope for in central London ? new [Re: tomcody]
      #5343199 - 07/30/12 11:21 AM

OT but curious how the light pollution is from the Olympics?

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Chris Purves
super member


Reged: 11/01/08

Loc: Wimbledon, London
Re: What FWHM can I hope for in central London ? [Re: netboy]
      #5343215 - 07/30/12 11:29 AM

Tom - yep added in the extra 1mm (increase) due to the filter.

London has sooo much LP that I doubt the Olympics will add much! I am right next to the Wimbledon tennis but haven't noticed anything extra. Was at the beach volleyball this morning - just superb. Not sure what the TV coverage is like in other coutries but we are having a ball here.

Cheers
Chris

Edited by Chris Purves (07/30/12 11:32 AM)


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Jared
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Reged: 10/11/05

Loc: Piedmont, California, U.S.
Re: What FWHM can I hope for in central London ? new [Re: Chris Purves]
      #5343492 - 07/30/12 02:04 PM

Quote:

Tom - yep added in the extra 1mm (increase) due to the filter.

London has sooo much LP that I doubt the Olympics will add much! I am right next to the Wimbledon tennis but haven't noticed anything extra. Was at the beach volleyball this morning - just superb. Not sure what the TV coverage is like in other coutries but we are having a ball here.

Cheers
Chris




Glad you're enjoying the Olympics. I've never seen them myself, though I did live in Atlanta in '96. Missed them since I was out of town.

I don't think this can have anything to do with the spacing of your filter wheel or with the filters. Getting the spacing wrong only affects focal length and field curvature. It usually shows as astigmatism in a refractor--the field curvature allows the small amount of inherent astigmatism to be visible. Your problem isn't astigmatism--it's coma. Also, it is visible through both luminance frames and in the color frames, so it can't have anything to do with your filters. It's easier to see in the luminance frames just because they weren't binned, but it's there in everything you have posted.

Let us know when you have taken some sample images without the flattener in place. If you like, you can even try very short test shots on brighter stars so you don't need to worry about tracking at all. Perhaps some 10s exposures of a rich star field? That would absolutely confirm it's an optical issue, not a tracking issue.


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Chris Purves
super member


Reged: 11/01/08

Loc: Wimbledon, London
Re: What FWHM can I hope for in central London ? new [Re: Jared]
      #5343589 - 07/30/12 03:01 PM

Thanks Jared - will do. Just need s clear sky - clouds not helping at moment!

Thanks
Chris


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paul11
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 01/30/06

Loc: Essex UK.
Re: What FWHM can I hope for in central London ? new [Re: Chris Purves]
      #5343652 - 07/30/12 03:35 PM

Could be Thursday and Friday

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Jared
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Reged: 10/11/05

Loc: Piedmont, California, U.S.
Re: What FWHM can I hope for in central London ? new [Re: Chris Purves]
      #5345400 - 07/31/12 02:15 PM

Here's hoping it's the flattener, not the objective!

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Chris Purves
super member


Reged: 11/01/08

Loc: Wimbledon, London
Re: What FWHM can I hope for in central London ? new [Re: Jared]
      #5345735 - 07/31/12 05:34 PM Attachment (11 downloads)

Well I had a window tonight to take some images and I think the news is not good. I removed the flattener and the rotator and took the same images with the TOA-150b and the tsa-102 (piggyback).

I took some star tests and some defocused star images.

Files are here.

http://www.wimbledonastro.com/astrofiles/20120731/Images_QSI683wsg/

Flikr libraries here

150 - http://flic.kr/s/aHsjB4uvTC
102 - http://flic.kr/s/aHsjB4uo5d

have attached one of the TOA-150 defocussed stars.

Chris

Edited by Chris Purves (07/31/12 05:35 PM)


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Chris Purves
super member


Reged: 11/01/08

Loc: Wimbledon, London
Re: What FWHM can I hope for in central London ? new [Re: Chris Purves]
      #5345738 - 07/31/12 05:38 PM Attachment (11 downloads)

Oh and here is the similar image from the 102

Chris


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Jared
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Reged: 10/11/05

Loc: Piedmont, California, U.S.
Re: What FWHM can I hope for in central London ? new [Re: Chris Purves]
      #5346217 - 07/31/12 11:33 PM

Yup. De-centering issue on the TOA 150 objective. I was afraid of that. Unfortunately, I don't know of a way for you to determine which element is out of alignment, so it would be hard for you to fix it yourself. Plus, since this is an air spaced triplet, it's important to get the tension right in the adjustment screws or you run e risk of pinching--especially in colder weather. I'm afraid it will need to go in for alignment if you want it performing it's best.

- Sorry


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Chris Purves
super member


Reged: 11/01/08

Loc: Wimbledon, London
Re: What FWHM can I hope for in central London ? new [Re: Jared]
      #5346371 - 08/01/12 03:13 AM

Thanks Jared,

I will get it packed up and sent off At least I have the tsa-102 to play with.

Chris


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darbyvet
professor emeritus


Reged: 10/19/10

Loc: Seneca Falls, New York
Re: What FWHM can I hope for in central London ? new [Re: Chris Purves]
      #5346661 - 08/01/12 09:37 AM

Ouch Chris. At least you figured out the problem. I look forward to seeing some amazing images from your set up when it is all fixed.

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Jared
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Reged: 10/11/05

Loc: Piedmont, California, U.S.
Re: What FWHM can I hope for in central London ? new [Re: Chris Purves]
      #5347115 - 08/01/12 02:36 PM

Quote:

Thanks Jared,

I will get it packed up and sent off At least I have the tsa-102 to play with.

Chris




Take heart, Chris. Once it's resolved it should be resolved permanently. This isn't an indication of a lemon or of future problems. Just a hassle and shipping expense for the time being.


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Chris Purves
super member


Reged: 11/01/08

Loc: Wimbledon, London
Re: What FWHM can I hope for in central London ? new [Re: Jared]
      #5360079 - 08/09/12 03:02 PM Attachment (4 downloads)

Hmm I wonder if any of you might comment on the attached images. They were take using a Howie glatter laser collimator and the original Tak focuser (only just put back on - it was a feathertouch used to take the photos above).

This all looks off center!

Chris

Edited by Chris Purves (08/09/12 03:03 PM)


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