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nightfisher
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Reged: 11/06/11

Loc: Huddersfield UK
is a mak an APO? new
      #5351520 - 08/04/12 11:08 AM

Is the view through a Maksutov as good as an Apo refractor for similar apertures, allowing for the central obstruction of the mak, for example say you looked through a 5" mak with a focal length of 1000mm and a 51/2" apo with same focal length, would the object being viewed appear the same? Just throwing up a question for the fun of it

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jmiele
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Reged: 12/04/10

Re: is a mak an APO? new [Re: nightfisher]
      #5351525 - 08/04/12 11:16 AM

That depends on the Mak, and the Apo.

Joe


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Binojunky
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Reged: 12/25/10

Re: is a mak an APO? new [Re: jmiele]
      #5351535 - 08/04/12 11:29 AM

Inch for Inch contrast and aperture will suffer because of the central obstruction, however a first rate mak will out perform a poor apo refractor,DA.

Edited by Binojunky (08/04/12 11:30 AM)


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nightfisher
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Reged: 11/06/11

Loc: Huddersfield UK
Re: is a mak an APO? new [Re: jmiele]
      #5351536 - 08/04/12 11:30 AM

just figuratively speaking, i have heard it said "the view through a mak is apo like"

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johnC
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Re: is a mak an APO? new [Re: nightfisher]
      #5351545 - 08/04/12 11:38 AM

My Intes Micro 715 is quite simply stunning. Enough said :-)

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Eddgie
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Re: is a mak an APO? new [Re: nightfisher]
      #5351559 - 08/04/12 11:47 AM

You said 51/2" APO, and ir you wanted to make a direct comparison, then I am going to assume you wanted to say five inch and not five and a half inches.

First, you will never find these two scopes in the same aperture and focal length, and as a result the discussion can only be purely theoretical.

No one makes a 5" f/10 APO, but you can find 5" f/10 MCTs.

In this comparison, if you could find one, the 5" f/10 APO would be a better instrument.

To be f/10, the obstruction of the MCT would have to be rather large, and as a result, there would be two areas taht the MCT would loose ground.

The first would be light transmission. The MCT would not only have less effecient transmission (maybe 90% overall), but it would also have the shading of the secondary obstruction. As a result, the image would be slightly britghter in the 5" f/10 APO. Subtle, but being a theoretical discussion, we are left with splitting paper hairs.

The second would be that the larger central obstruction would decrease the contrast transfer of the 5" f/10 MCT. This means that small, low contrast detail would be more easily visible in the 5" f/10 APO.

Now, you could make the scopes f/15, and the much smaller central obstrucion needed could make the MCT a bit more similar in performance, but why would anyone make an f/15 APO when you can make them f/7.5 or f/8 and still get APO performace

Focal lenght by itself is a neutral in the sense that the focal lenght or focal ration does not change the performance of the scope at the center of the field.

What focal length (again, assuming the same aperture) does is give a scope the ability to give a wider true feild.

And if I had a 5" f/8 refractor, and I put it next to the f/15 MCT, while the MCT would come very very close in performance at the cetner of the field (many observers might not be able to easily see a difference), the f/8 APO would still have the benefit of being able to show a larger field, and hence be able to give a performance capability that the MCT could never match.

But the reality is that no one makes an MCT faster than f/10, and to my knowledge, no one makes a 5" APO slower than about f/8.

Agian, this means that this discussion can only be purely theoretical, and in theory, the 5" refractor (assuming that it is indeed an APO) will have the advantage, regardless of the focal length of the two scopes because it will enjoy both a slightly brighter and slightly higher contrast image.

Edited by Eddgie (08/04/12 11:48 AM)


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Scott BeithAdministrator
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Reged: 11/26/03

Loc: Frederick, MD
Re: is a mak an APO? [Re: Eddgie]
      #5351565 - 08/04/12 11:51 AM

http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=785

Comparrison of a 5" Mak to a 4" achromat.

Both in the same price range so it isn't a lopsided evaluation.


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brianb11213
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Re: is a mak an APO? new [Re: Scott Beith]
      #5351601 - 08/04/12 12:13 PM

Eddgie, first of all optical quality issues make far more difference than the small central obstruction typical of Maks.

Secondly, there are Maks shorter than f/10 on the market, I've seen them down to f/6.

Thirdly, there is at least one 130mm (5.1") f/9.25 triplet apo on the market (and a very good scope it is too).

Finally, apart from the potential to have wide fields (which is simply not required or even helpful for some types of observation), long focal lengths have no diadvantages and several real advantages. Some people will talk about long tubes being hard to transport / mount but a 20 cm f/20 Mak will have a shorter, lighter tube than a 15 cm APO ... by a big, big margin.

I have seen scopes of all design types give "refractor like" images, when they have been of high quality and when the air has been exceptionally stable. I have seen some pretty good apos giving rotten images when they've been out of temperature equilibrium and/or the air has been unstable (especially with a jet stream racing overhead). IMHO design simply doesn't matter (assuming the focal length is sufficiently long for the optics to be properly corrected), seeing does, so does optical quality.


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Jon Isaacs
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Reged: 06/16/04

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Re: is a mak an APO? new [Re: brianb11213]
      #5351676 - 08/04/12 12:55 PM

Quote:

Eddgie, first of all optical quality issues make far more difference than the small central obstruction typical of Maks.

Secondly, there are Maks shorter than f/10 on the market, I've seen them down to f/6.




There are Mak-Newtonians even faster than F/6. My interpretation of the original question was MAK as in MAK-Cassegrain and they do not have the 20% COs and F/6 focal ratios possible with a Mak-Newt.

In comparing such a scope with an apo, the difference would be in the thermal stability, the light throughput and the field illumination. A 5 inch F/6 Mak-Newt with a 20% CO is not going to come close to fully illuminating the field stop of 31mm Nagler.

Jon


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nightfisher
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Reged: 11/06/11

Loc: Huddersfield UK
Re: is a mak an APO? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5351737 - 08/04/12 01:35 PM

Oh lord, what have i started!

I am referring to the gregorian maksutov in comparison to an apo, just in a theoretical basis, hence when i stated a 51/2" mak vs a 5" apo that was just to get an understanding, and allowing for a margin of central obstruction


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Eddgie
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Reged: 02/01/06

Re: is a mak an APO? new [Re: brianb11213]
      #5351740 - 08/04/12 01:36 PM

Quote:

Eddgie, first of all optical quality issues make far more difference than the small central obstruction typical of Maks.




This is not at all true. A telescope with a 30% central obstruction and perfect optics will not have contrast transfer that is much better than a similar size refractor with 1/4th wave of spherical abberation. A 25% obstruction would be about the same as a 1/6th wave spherical abberation flaw in a refactor.

If anything. This means that you can have a refactor with barely diffraction limited optics and it can perform as well as a perfect 30% obstructed reflector.

But the OP did not say that one scope or the other would be permitted to have better optics. When it is not specifically expressed as a requirment, then one would normally assume with these kinds of questions that the quality was implied to be the same.

But make no mistake... A refractor can get away with less than great optics and still outperform a similar sized scope with a 25% obstruction and perfect optics (same aperture). An obstruction is very damaging.. Much more than minor quality errors in a refactor.

Quote:

Secondly, there are Maks shorter than f/10 on the market, I've seen them down to f/6.




The OP said "Maksutov" and while a Mak Newt is a derivitave of the Maksutov, most optical engineers would call it a Newton type telescope with a Maksutov corrector. When one is referring to them, they are always differentiated by using the more correct "Maksutov Newtonian" so that they are differentiated. The OP did not include Mak-Newt in his question, so I limited my response to the Maksutov telescope.

Everything is still true of the MN though, becasue it will still have reduced transmission efficency and a reduced contrast.

I owned an MN56. The central obstruction is 25%. The system transmission would likely only be about 90%. It was easily on par with a 4" APO, but I doubt that it would quite equal a 5" APO.

Quote:

Thirdly, there is at least one 130mm (5.1") f/9.25 triplet apo on the m
market (and a very good scope it is too).




Ah, too bad.. The OP asked about 5" telescopes. 130mm telescope is a 5.2" telescope. Since there is no 130mm MCT on the market, once again, we can't compare it with any other MCTs on the market.

Edited by Eddgie (08/04/12 01:38 PM)


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Eddgie
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Re: is a mak an APO? new [Re: nightfisher]
      #5351831 - 08/04/12 02:52 PM Attachment (36 downloads)

Ah, you meant a 5.5" MCT specifically. I did not know because you ran the 5 into the 1/2 and I was not sure if it was a typo.

Here is your answer.... The 5.5" (rounded from 139.7mm to 140mm for plotting) and a 20% obstruction and plotted here...

The red line is a perfect 140mm aperture.

The dotted red line is a perfect 140mm aperture with a 20% obstruction.

The green line is a perfect 127mm aperture.

The light transmission of these scopes would be very similar. The total collection of the 140mm MCT would give about 23 square inches of light collection, but the transmission would likely be only about 90% and the secondary would shadow a couple of square inches, so the total transmission would be perhaps slightly less than the 5" telescope.

This is consistent with the big shootout did about 10 years ago. An MN61 and a 5" APO side by side, and the 5" APO was judged to have a slightly brighter image. This was an older scope not utilizing high transmission coatings on the mirrors, but it was also 150mm, so it would be reasonable to expect that even with high transmission coatings, the MCT would still not have quite as good a transmission as a 5" APO.

The contrast transfer for the MCT would be slightly lower at the important visual frequencies, but would be slightly better at high frequencies.. This means that for planetary observing the refractor would (on paper) have a slight edge, but for doubles, the MCT would have a slight edge.

The contrast loss in the MCT vs. the 5" APO though would only be about 6% difference at .3 of the max spatial frequency. The APO would loose about 37% of the contrast at .3 max fs, wile the MCT would loose about 43% of the available contrast. This is in the range of two or three Airy Disk diatmeters. For the detail in this general size, the APO would give a very slight advantage, but honestly, most observers would not be able to see it.

Still, there are people on these formums that routinly say that they can detect difference in contarst performance and transmission of eyepieces when most lab studies suggest that these small differences would be almost impossible to see.

Anyway here is the MTF for each. In the end, I think that they would perform close enough that most people would struggle to see a difference.

Edited by Eddgie (08/04/12 04:40 PM)


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Erik Bakker
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Reged: 08/10/06

Loc: The Netherlands, Europe
Re: is a mak an APO? new [Re: nightfisher]
      #5351854 - 08/04/12 03:09 PM

No. A good apo is superior in all respects to the same aperture mak. The mak excels in size and convenience. The difference in performance can partly be overcome with more aperture in the mak. However, after comparing my 4" Tak apo to my 7" Questar mak for a half a year or so, I sold my 7" mak and got myself a nice top quality 16" f/5 dob. Where the 7" Mak became redundant next to the 4" apo, I use the 16" f/5 a lot. The 4" apo and 16" dob make a great team!


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Tim2723
The Moon Guy
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Reged: 02/19/04

Loc: Northern New Jersey
Re: is a mak an APO? new [Re: Erik Bakker]
      #5352324 - 08/04/12 09:39 PM

A long time ago I discovered it's better to forgo the math and focus my time at the eyepiece. You can spend a whole lot of time wondering if your scope is perfect while missing the show.

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Pinbout
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Reged: 02/22/10

Loc: Montclair
Re: is a mak an APO? new [Re: nightfisher]
      #5352394 - 08/04/12 10:40 PM

I think this is a fair comparison.

daniel mounsey's TEC140 vs. Ceravolo HD145 thrd


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Jon Isaacs
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: is a mak an APO? new [Re: Pinbout]
      #5352737 - 08/05/12 08:26 AM

Quote:

I think this is a fair comparison.

daniel mounsey's TEC140 vs. Ceravolo HD145 thrd




Humm...

The double-double in a 140mm? That's a challenge double for a good 60mm...

Jon


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brianb11213
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Re: is a mak an APO? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5352742 - 08/05/12 08:31 AM

Quote:

The double-double in a 140mm? That's a challenge double for a good 60mm...



Even a pretty ropey 60mm will split it (both pairs). Provided the seeing is halfway reasonable. I managed it with my first 60mm f/11 "department store" scope which had optics which were at best 1/2 wave. Only takes about x60.


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jrbarnett
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Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: is a mak an APO? new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5352827 - 08/05/12 10:09 AM

"no one makes a 5" APO slower than about f/8"

Au contraire, mon ami!

http://www.apm-telescopes.net/de/Teleskope/Linsenteleskope-Optik/Tubus-/Apochromaten/Apo-130/1200-LW-Photo-1913

130mm f/9.25.

- Jim


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junomike
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Reged: 09/07/09

Loc: Ontario
Re: is a mak an APO? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5352947 - 08/05/12 11:28 AM

Jim, that link leads to a pic of a 130mm/1170mm scope which is F9, but then under "spezifikationen" (specs) It lists It as being 1200mm or F9.2?

My German is poor, but that's still confusing?

Mike


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SteveC
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Reged: 06/15/06

Loc: The Garden State & Ocean State
Re: is a mak an APO? new [Re: nightfisher]
      #5353559 - 08/05/12 05:47 PM

Quote:

Is the view through a Maksutov as good as an Apo refractor for similar apertures, allowing for the central obstruction of the mak, for example say you looked through a 5" mak with a focal length of 1000mm and a 51/2" apo with same focal length, would the object being viewed appear the same? Just throwing up a question for the fun of it




I own both the TEC140 and an Intes Micro 7" Mak. This same subject appeared about 2 weeks ago, and I reported that views of the planets were almost equal, with perhaps the TEC140 edging out the 7" Mak on occasion. Jim Barnett had owned the same two scopes at one time and he said the views of planets were noticeably sharper and more contrasty in the TEC140, if memory serves me right. We usually see eye to eye on this subject, so I went back to the archives to check my old posts. I was wrong, my old posts indicated that I definitely said that planetary views were better in the TEC140. That mistake corrected, I felt that both scopes were about equal on globs, The TEC140 was usperior on double stars, and The Mak was better on DSO's that fit within its narrow field.

I believe you would need an 8' IM Mak to find all round superior performance over the TEC140. Both scopes are top notch in the quality catagory, but how that translates performance wise between price points and quality levels in other scopes is beyond my expertise. Cooling issues/ease of use in cold climates also have to be factored in.


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