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Equipment Discussions >> Cats & Casses

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abaum
member


Reged: 03/30/12

Need help with scope differences
      #5368920 - 08/14/12 07:28 PM

All,

I am finally ready to make a purchase. After talking to local astronomy club members and a few retailers for a few months now, the general consensus is that I would be best off with an 8" SCT based on what I am looking to accomplish and budget.

Where I am confused is the Ford vs Chevy debate. People seem to favor either Celestron or Meade and push me in those directions. What I mean is that those who favor Celestron talk negatively about Meade and vice-versa.

This is occurring even among retailers that sell both lines. As such, I can't get a real handle on the differences between the two lines.

So...in the Meade field, what are the differences btwn the LX80, LX90 and LX200 lines - talking 8" only. What I've read seems to be a bit outdated because it looks like the optics are basically the same and the difference is in the mount. I think I am missing something based on acronyms used in spec sheets.

In Celestron lineup, I understand the diff. between the CGEM and CPC...(just different mounts?), but how does EdgeHD and CPC Deluxe play into things?

What I am looking to do is basic solar system viewing followed by some deep sky observing. Imaging is not in my immediate future, but maybe next year I'll add it on. My budget is $2500 +/- and I understand that I will need to acquire some accessories such as eyepieces, power crds/supplies. The bulk of my viewing will be in my backyard, but I will do some field trips (thus the 8" size for portability). I want to maximize my scope/mount now given said budget since they tend to be the most expensive items and I don't want to have to replace them sooner rather than later. I can budget a few hundred dollars for a few years for accessories to get to where I need/want to be.

Help is much appreciated.
Adam

Edited by abaum (08/14/12 07:33 PM)


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MikeBOKC
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Reged: 05/10/10

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Re: Need help with scope differences new [Re: abaum]
      #5368981 - 08/14/12 08:15 PM

The Meade scopes you list are all fork mounted alt-az scopes, as are the Celestron CPCs. The CGEM scopes are the same OTA (optical tube assembly, basically the bare telescope itself) on an equatorial mount, which is more use ful for astrophotography and is often a bit more of a challenge to transport, set up and align. If you are planning visual only use you are probably better off with the alt az mounted scopes. Meade has introduced some new SCTs on a new equatorial mount, but most of their scopes still come alt az mounted.

The Meade and Celestron OTAs are (and here I am generalizing and may be contradicted by some) both pretty much the same as far as quality and the views they will give you. There are some differences in the go to electrronics and hand controllers. A lot of folks feel the Celestron hand controller/electronics suite is more user friendly and perhaps a bit more reliable. Also, the Meade OTAs tend to be a bit heavier than the Celestrons, if transport and lifting are a factor for you. You are right that this is a perennial Ford-Chevy issue; both have theor partisans, both make pretty darn good instruments and it ultimately comes down to personal taste. You really cannot go wrong with either.


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MikeBOKC
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Re: Need help with scope differences new [Re: MikeBOKC]
      #5368988 - 08/14/12 08:21 PM

One more point you raised re the Edge difference. The edge HD design by Celestron was a response to Meade advanced coma-free optics, and both give a flatter field through tghe eyepiece than the standard Celestron optics, which is useful for astropphotagraphy, nice for visual but not essentail for it. There is nothing wrong with the view through a standard SCT with your eyeball; think of the edge HD and ACF optics as premium (note the extra cost too) and the standard optics as just that, standard.

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vct123
sage
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Reged: 11/17/09

Loc: Staten Island, N.Y.
Re: Need help with scope differences new [Re: abaum]
      #5369024 - 08/14/12 08:44 PM

Well your three big areas or expenses will be: scope, mount, and eyepieces.
A nice start would be a c8 with a cg5 mount. The c8 could either be a Celestron or Meade, but you will find more Celestron ota's then Meade. The mount could be a Celestron cg5 or the Meade Lxd-75, both similar and can handle the 8" sct with no problem.
My suggestion here would be to consider buying used from here on Cloudy or Astromart, you will save big. If you want to buy new, thats fine.
You will be looking at about $1,000 for the ota and mount used and about $1,500 new +-
Eyepiece selection to me would be the next thing to consider and just as important. There is much to pick from here but the Explore Scientific 82 degree NP eyepieces are very popular right now and still on sale.
I have some of their 1 1/4 eyepieces the 6.7, 8.8. and 11mm and at $99 on sale there is no need to go used in this department. You will also want at least (1) 2" eyepiece to start. I would say 5 eyepiece and a 2x barlow should be good enough to start with. There are different ways to get the same result here. You can buy a 10mm eyepiece, or get a 20mm and use a 2x barlow, etc. The key is to spread the magnification out: 50 x, 100x, 150x, 200x, 250x......
You don't need a 10mm eyepiece and an 11mm eyepiece is what I am saying.
Again the choices here are endless but a few to consider would be: Televue plossls, Explore scientific np 82 degree.

There are also some other items you need: power supply, dew shield or dew heater.

There are other scopes too in the 8 range, the Celestron cpc series or the Meade lx90 or lx200 are fork mounted scopes.
I happen to prefer the fork mount once you get into the 10" and larger range.

You could also consider an 8" dob which can be bought with no setting circles, or a push to goto system like the Orion Inteliscope or the goto dobs from Orion. But if photography is in the future, I wouldn't go in this direction.

As far as the Meade vs Celestron thing, its is kinda like you said a Ford vs Chevy thing. I have owned both and can tell you that you can get good and bad from both.

Edited by vct123 (08/14/12 08:46 PM)


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orion61
Vendor(Clear Edge Optical)
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Reged: 10/20/07

Loc: NW Iowa BURRRR
Re: Need help with scope differences new [Re: vct123]
      #5369186 - 08/14/12 10:15 PM

There is a basis for the C vs M views. There was a point in Meades past when their QC for optical performance wasn't as consistant as It could, that ans a botched try at a Silvered secondary that tarnished after a year or 2.
Celestron had some issues as most all mfgrs in the mid 80's.
Things are much different now and have been for a number of years, both companys put out outstanding optics.
When I got into serious Astronomy in the 70's a fork mount was the IN thing.
Now it trends to GEM mounts which tend to be a little more solis but bulkier, and a pain to haul move and set up compaired to Fork Mount scopes.
I have both, I still prefer Fork arm scopes one or 2 trips out the door as opposed to 3 to 5.
Meade tubes are a bit heavier inch for inch, some say better construction. Coatings are pretty much a tie as are
accys for each.
The used market is out there especially if you can look through it first. Savinge tend to be 40-60% over new.
If you don't want Go-To there are fantastic deals for Classic Orange tube Celestron C 8 scopes complete for as low as $400.00!
This forum tends to be a bit more biased toward Celestron.
I have both and do like some things from each.
The 8" SCT is a very good choice, you can use as is visually, then the Sky is the limit. Dobs are good for big mirrors cheap but have limits for Planetary and auto tracking.
My suggestion is READ, READ, READ. Look at user reviews, past posts sales trends etc. One of these days you are going to look at a scope and say YEP THATS the one.
You might want to read Uncle Rod M's blog
We'll be here for help whichever scope you choose.
The Beginners forum will also be of great help, and comfortable to be with others going through the learning curve.
All the Best
Larry Beach


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Rick Woods
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Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: Need help with scope differences new [Re: orion61]
      #5369231 - 08/14/12 10:37 PM

I would venture that in the Meade selections, the LX200 would be preferable to the LX90, especially if you might image someday. The LX200 fork mount is outstanding.
The LX80 - I don't know anything about it. Is it even shipping yet? And the new f/8 Meade offerings seem to have a really large central obstruction (~40%?).


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Stelios
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 10/04/03

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Re: Need help with scope differences new [Re: abaum]
      #5370131 - 08/15/12 01:20 PM

If imaging is not in your near future, the CGEM is just a lot of unnecessary weight. For a C8 a CG-5 is more than enough.

I'm one of those who don't like Meade. Tried it, won't try it again. I've never been disappointed in a Celestron, and I've owned 5 of them going back into the 70's.

By all accounts the Edge HD is the best optics in a mass-produced scope that you can buy today. I'd try to get the Edge HD OTA + CG-5. Currently this comes in at 1,169 + 750 = 1919 vs. 2249 for the same OTA on a CGEM. The $300 will buy you much needed stuff, from eyepieces to filters to observing chairs. Even if you need to do imaging later, the CG-5 should be good enough till you get to be expert level, and at that point you may want a different rig (perhaps with an APO) entirely.


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Rick Woods
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Reged: 01/27/05

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Re: Need help with scope differences new [Re: Stelios]
      #5370189 - 08/15/12 02:00 PM

By all accounts?

What is it you don't like about Meade? "Tried it, won't try it again" is a little vague.


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GeneT
Ely Kid
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Reged: 11/07/08

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Re: Need help with scope differences new [Re: abaum]
      #5370497 - 08/15/12 06:03 PM

Quote:

Celestron or Meade




Either one would be fine. If I were buying an SCT, I would buy a Celestron EdgeHD because I would want the sharpest optics possible. Right or wrong, I trust the overall reputation of Celestron's optics over Meade's. However, both Celestron and Meade most often produce a decent product. Just like anything else, there is a chance to get a superb telescope--or a lemon.


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elwaine
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 06/18/06

Loc: S.W. Florida
Re: Need help with scope differences new [Re: GeneT]
      #5370642 - 08/15/12 08:00 PM

Quote:

People seem to favor either Celestron or Meade and push me in those directions.




Take heart in this: once you make your own choice, regardless of which way you go, you, too, will push people in the direction that you went in. I think it is a phenomenon called "being human."


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jrbarnett
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Reged: 02/28/06

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Re: Need help with scope differences new [Re: abaum]
      #5371310 - 08/16/12 09:46 AM

Adam, any reason you're not interested in the Celestron Nexstar SE scopes? These are the ones with a single fork arm, and removable OTA, and are a heck of a lot less expensive than the CPC dual form arm units.

Also, for what you describe, if you go the equatorial mount route, you don't need to go for the CGEM for an 8" OTA if you'd rater not spend that much money. The CG5-GT is more than enough mount to handle the C8 OTA (or an 8" Meade OTA) at about half the price of the CGEM.

In my opinion, given that this is your first ever scope, the odds of it being your last are approximately zero. Rather than blowing your entire $2500 budget now, instead I would get the 8" SCT that you think you want as cost effectively as possible, use it and learn about scopes and the heavens, and after a year or two, figure out if the 8" SCT was really the right scope with the benefit of hindsight and hands-on experience.

If the dough is burning a hole in your pocket, take the extra and invest in things that hold their value well and can be used with this and any future scope, like quality eyepieces and filters, and also an observing chair.

Happy hunting!

Oh, and as for the Meade vs. Celestron debate, I've owned and used SCTs by both. I've had numerous bad ones from each. I've seen exactly three Meade catadioptric OTAs I would be happy to own and a similar ratio of good ones to bad ones for Celestrons I've owned and used.

I guess I'm an alien rather than a human, because I think you stand a pretty good chance of getting an optical dud from either company. Buy from a dealer with a no-questions-asked return policy. Unpack carefully, saving all materials. Test the scope with an experienced buddy or two. Don't let the excitement cloud your perception. See where you and your buddies feel the scope stacks up relative to others you've seen and used. If it doesn't meet your expectations, send it back for a refund or exchange. Key to this strategy is buying the scope during a season where you'll have a chance to use it before the 30-day return policy runs out.

- Jim

Edited by jrbarnett (08/16/12 09:52 AM)


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jmiele
Patron Saint?
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Reged: 12/04/10

Re: Need help with scope differences new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5371433 - 08/16/12 11:14 AM

I agree Jim and recommend Highpoint Scientific to folks. They have a liberal return policy, they deal with the OEM on issues and have free shipping to boot.

Best, Joe


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abaum
member


Reged: 03/30/12

Re: Need help with scope differences new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5371566 - 08/16/12 12:58 PM

JRbarnett -Not my first scope. I've actually had a cheap reflector for a number of years..but got rid of it about 5yrs ago. Simply enough, I outgrew it.

I'm looking for the convenience of a GoTo scope and I want a mount that can handle most of what I will throw at it. When I look at the CGEM (and other of its ilk), I see a mount that can last many years and handle many different OTAs. I'm also looking at the equatorials because imaging is in my future. I figure I'll buy the CCD a year out. My plan is to buy the main setup now and then buy the extra over time as I need them and as I save for them.

I have concerns about the CG-5 mount given all the negative comments I see in the Mounts forum on this site. Of course, you tend to read about problems more than successes so I have been taking it all with a grain of salt.


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bierbelly
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Reged: 01/23/04

Loc: Sterling, VA
Re: Need help with scope differences new [Re: abaum]
      #5371600 - 08/16/12 01:24 PM

Quote:

JRbarnett -Not my first scope. I've actually had a cheap reflector for a number of years..but got rid of it about 5yrs ago. Simply enough, I outgrew it.

I'm looking for the convenience of a GoTo scope and I want a mount that can handle most of what I will throw at it. When I look at the CGEM (and other of its ilk), I see a mount that can last many years and handle many different OTAs. I'm also looking at the equatorials because imaging is in my future. I figure I'll buy the CCD a year out. My plan is to buy the main setup now and then buy the extra over time as I need them and as I save for them.

I have concerns about the CG-5 mount given all the negative comments I see in the Mounts forum on this site. Of course, you tend to read about problems more than successes so I have been taking it all with a grain of salt.




If your budget allows, certainly go for the CGEM over the CG5GT. In your future, you'll find that the limited capacity of the latter will soon be reached and likely exceeded by the weight of AP accessories...not a lot of wiggle room on that mount. Additionally, from my understanding the CGEM has much more accurate tracking than the CG5GT. If you know you're heading in the direction of AP, and have the money, go for the better mount now.


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Jon_Doh
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Re: Need help with scope differences new [Re: bierbelly]
      #5372745 - 08/17/12 08:50 AM

I've owned both Celestron and Meade SCT's within the past twelve months and have dealt with each's customer service. As for optics there isn't any difference between the two. Any differences that may exist in units you may use are likely caused by variances in manufacturing as both are mass produced products. Celestron's are mass produced in China, while some Meade's are made in Mexico and a few still produced at their plant in California.

There is a difference in their coma free lens and I would recommend getting the Celestron HD or Meade ACF upgrade. Meade's are made of aluminum and weigh more than their Celestron counterparts, which are made of fiberglass. In theory the aluminum should cool faster, but cool down time on both is lengthy in my experience.

Celestron CPC means the scope is mounted on a fork, HD means they have coma free (flat field) optics, which are excellent. These are also good for astrophotography. Meade LX90 and LX200 are both fork mounts. The 200 series are more expensive, but they are heavier and handle the weight of 10 inch and larger bodies. They are also a bit better for astrophotography, although you can do astrophotography just fine with the LX90 for shorter exposures. You can also put a wedge on them. With Meade the ACF optics are coma free. If you are looking for an 8 inch scope the Celestron CPC HD or LX 90 ACF will do just fine. I would shy away from the Celestron NexStar 8 inch as the scope is a bit heavy for the mount and tripod and you get a lot of vibration. People buy vibration pads to put under the tripod. This scope is not suited for astrophotography imo.

Meade puts their carrying handles in the front facing toward you, which makes it harder to pick up and carry their units. This is especially true with 10 inch and above units. Celestron's handles are to the side facing out and you get better leverage, which makes it easier to pick up and carry their units. But for an 8 inch scope there probably isn't that big a difference.

Most folks prefer the Celestron hand control because it has a dedicated key to enter Messier or Caldwell numbers. On the Meade you have to scroll through a list of objects by name until you come to the one you want to view and then select goto. But, the Meade has other advantages that you might want to consider. The GPS in Meade finds the two brightest stars in the sky for you and slews to them so all you have to do to align is center them and hit enter. With Celestron you have to know the name of the star to align. On some of the newer Celestron's I've read they're adopting Meade's system so if you decide to get a Celestron, check out this out. Also, Meade offers Tonight's Best, which puts up a list of objects the computer deems to be best for viewing. You can still enter objects manually, just not as easily as with Celestron.

Intangibles. Celestron is owned by Tasco (a telescope toy manufacturer), which went bankrupt a decade ago and was bought by Bushnell, another toy/Walmart optics, telescope company. Should that matter to you? That's up to you to decide. On the other hand, I keep hearing rumors that Meade is fighting to stay out of bankruptcy and should they file for bankruptcy who knows what their future might hold.

I've dealt with customer service with both companies and neither is anything to write home about. I found Celestron's CS to be deplorable and the worse of any company I have ever dealt with. They simply were unresponsive and didn't seem to care. Meade's service was incompetent and not overly interested in the consumer, but in the end they did come through, whereas Celestron would have left me holding the bag if not for a superb vendor who came to the rescue. Frankly, if I could have found an SCT made by another company that I could have afforded I would have bought from them. In the end I got rid of the Celestron (too many problems with it and customer service that didn't care) and went with a Meade. I've been happy with the telescope and what it does, but I know if Meade files for bankruptcy I may never be able to get any service, should I need it in the future.

Everybody who has owned either scope will have a story to tell about why one scope is better than the other one. These are only our individual experiences and your mileage may vary. Oh, batteries are definitely not included and there will be a lot of assembly required. Good luck with your decision.

Edited by Jon_Doh (08/17/12 08:56 AM)


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elwaine
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 06/18/06

Loc: S.W. Florida
Re: Need help with scope differences new [Re: Jon_Doh]
      #5372823 - 08/17/12 09:50 AM

I would like to second (or third) what Jim wrote – except for one thing: get the absolutely best mount you can afford. Skimping on a mount is the one mistake most folks make during their early years in this hobby. With CATS, the two main reasons folks wind up frustrated with "poor performance" is poor collimation and a poor mount.

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drollere
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Reged: 02/02/10

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Re: Need help with scope differences new [Re: abaum]
      #5373170 - 08/17/12 01:09 PM

Quote:

Where I am confused is the Ford vs Chevy debate. People seem to favor either Celestron or Meade and push me in those directions. What I mean is that those who favor Celestron talk negatively about Meade and vice-versa.




it doesn't make much difference. in fact, if you are at the point where you have to ask the question, it doesn't make *any* difference at all that will be apparent to you visually.

the handset features are different, but you will buy one and get used to it, and whichever you choose, the other ones will seem odd.

the equipment will set up different, but you will learn how to wrangle the scope you have and the other ones will seem clumsy.

don't get sucked into the CN brand politics and manufacturer marketing hype. if this is your first purchase, get an inexpensive generic model and use the savings to buy accessories you find you need, such as an observing chair, a rechargeable battery, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.

the beginner priorities are: (1) train your eye, (2) learn how to handle, care for and use equipment, and (3) identify your passionate interests.

nothing expensive required for any of those objectives.


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rflinn68
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 03/09/12

Loc: Arkansas
Re: Need help with scope differences new [Re: drollere]
      #5373465 - 08/17/12 04:18 PM Attachment (6 downloads)

Why does it have to be one or the other? Why not BOTH!

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rflinn68
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 03/09/12

Loc: Arkansas
Re: Need help with scope differences new [Re: rflinn68]
      #5373478 - 08/17/12 04:24 PM

I also adapted the tripod that came with my Meade LX50 to fit a Celestron forked C8 for a nice alt/az scope. Setting up the CGEM DX is something I sometimes dont feel like doing so I am looking at a CG5 goto to use with my C8 and maybe the Meade 10". They still sell the CG5 with a C11 so I think it will be fine for photography with a C8.

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Rick Woods
Postmaster
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Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: Need help with scope differences new [Re: Jon_Doh]
      #5373551 - 08/17/12 05:19 PM

Quote:

Most folks prefer the Celestron hand control because it has a dedicated key to enter Messier or Caldwell numbers. On the Meade you have to scroll through a list of objects by name until you come to the one you want to view and then select goto.




Is this new? My Autostar II handbox has a Messier key and a Caldwell key (and an NGC key); no scrolling necessary. But, mine is 9 years old.


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