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Robert Ellis
super member


Reged: 04/25/05
Posts: 166
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
How much magnification? new
      #537171 - 07/29/05 04:43 PM

How much magnification is needed for good views of most Messier Objects and brighter DSOs? Like If I wanted a good look at M31 and see even a little detail. How much is useful for separating the more observed binaries?

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Leupold Yosemite 6x30
Nikon Action 7x35
Nikon EII 8x30
Nikon EII 10x35
Nikon Monarch 10x36
Swift Audubon 804 8.5x44




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DanJ
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 12/01/04
Posts: 1026
Loc: Youngsville, NC
Re: How much magnification? new [Re: Robert Ellis]
      #537185 - 07/29/05 04:54 PM

I like to use a wide angle lens at low power, initially. Usually 20-30mm (60-80X in my 1200mmfl). Especially for wider objects. I like to use my KnightOwl 6mm (200x) WA to crack most globs, it's fantastic.

One thing I have been doing a lot lately, with DSO's of smaller size, is to use my zoom. I can then go up and down the power range to find that "sweet spot" rather than pulling out different lenses. Find a range you're comfortable with and explore.

Cheers,

--------------------
Dan J.
XT8i
ETX 90
PST



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sixela
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Reged: 12/23/04
Posts: 9499
Loc: Boechout, Belgium
Re: How much magnification? new [Re: Robert Ellis]
      #537198 - 07/29/05 05:05 PM

For M31, the answer is in fact as little as possible (unless you're hunting for some of the M31 globulars, that is): that object is about five times as wide as the full moon!

For other objects, it all depends on the scope's focal length and aperture (and on object scale for the larger ones or for large focal length scopes).

Take the f/ratio of the scope as f#(focal length divided by the aperture, *both* in mm of course). An eyepiece with a focal length of N mm yields an exit pupil of N/f# mm.

Another way to look at it: the exit pupil is the aperture divided by the magnification, or if you want to calculate the magnification corresponding to an exit pupil, it's the aperture divided by the exit pupil (both in mm).

Rules of thumb:

An eyepiece with an exit pupil of more than 7mm isn't that useful - you'll reduce image scale, but the images aren't going to become brighter because all the light won't be able to enter your eye (your eye's fully dilated pupil will only let through part of the light rays). Such an eyepiece may be useful for very large objects, though.

On obstructed scopes, you can't go *much* higher than 7mm - as your eye's pupil will not be at the ultimate focal plane of the system, it will clip off the *useful* light rays at the edge and partly be in the (progressively larger) shadow of the obstruction. On refractors, no such problem.

That's why the long focal length wide field eyepieces are so popular: they let you keep the exit pupil at 7mm but see a larger true field of view; a narrower apparent field of view eyepiece showing the same field will magnify less but without showing any brighter images.

2) A *general* rule of thumb is that the eyepiece with an exit pupil of 2mm will be the DSO workhorse - the darkening of the sky will make you *perceive* better contrast, image scale will be larger than at a 7mm exit pupil which also makes faint objects stand out more, but it's still close enough to a 7mm exit pupil not to dim the objects too much.

But that's only a rule of thumb -- as an example, many planetary nebulas really want a lot of magnification to reveal the internal detail, and if you want to see the faintest stars in a globular, you also have to go for quite some magnification.

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400mm f/4.46 David Lukehurst truss Dobsonian on Tom Osypowski equatorial platform
Orion Starblast (114mm f/4 reflector, Alt/Az)


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David Knisely
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Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 6787
Loc: Beatrice, Nebraska
Re: How much magnification? [Re: Robert Ellis]
      #537246 - 07/29/05 05:57 PM

Quote:

How much magnification is needed for good views of most Messier Objects and brighter DSOs? Like If I wanted a good look at M31 and see even a little detail. How much is useful for separating the more observed binaries?




OK, here a rundown of useful power ranges. The power will be per inch of aperture (i.e. if you have a six inch telescope, 10x per inch of aperture would mean that you would be using 60x).

USEFUL MAGNIFICATION RANGES FOR VISUAL OBSERVING
IN ASTRONOMICAL TELESCOPES

LOW POWER (3.6 to 9.9x per inch of aperture)(7mm to 2.6mm exit pupil): Useful for finding objects and for observing ones of large angular size like open clusters, large faint nebulae, or some larger galaxies. For lunar work in modest apertures, it is generally somewhat on the low side, but can show the crescent moon with background starfields well. This is also the range where Nebula filters tend to perform the best.

MEDIUM POWER (10x to 18.9x per inch of aperture)(2.5mm to 1.3mm exit pupil): Useful for observing somewhat smaller deep-sky objects such as galaxies, some diffuse nebulae, smaller open clusters, and moderate to large planetary nebulae. Also useful in apertures 6 inches and larger for getting at least partial resolution on the brightest globular star clusters. Often used in moderate to large apertures for detecting very small galaxies which may be invisible at low powers and for revealing details in some galaxies like dark lanes, mottling, and star-like nucleii. Very useful for wide area views of the moon, or for showing the moon systems and some of the larger features of the planets.

HIGH POWER (19x to 31.9x per inch of aperture)(1.3mm to 0.8mm exit pupil): A very useful power range for observing fine planetary and lunar detail. This is the range where the full theoretical resolving power of the telescope is becoming visible. Also useful in moderate to large apertures for getting better star resolution in tight globular clusters or for viewing detail in the smaller planetary nebulae, as well as resolving tight double stars. This power range is sometimes compromised in apertures larger than 5 inches by seeing effects (ie: disturbances in the Earth's atmosphere which can blur fine detail).

VERY HIGH POWER (32x to 46.9x per inch of aperture)(0.8mm to 0.5mm exit pupil): Useful for study of certain specific planetary details, and resolving double stars near or just above the resolution limit of the instrument. Also useful in larger telescopes for resolving the cores of some very tight globular clusters or for detecting the finer detail and faint central stars in the smaller planetary nebulae. Quite useful for telescope collimation tests or rough star-testing. This power range is not as frequently usable with larger apertures due to seeing disturbances. For planetary viewing, eye defects like motes and floaters (along with the somewhat lower overall light level), begin to become visible and slightly annoying in the upper half of this range.

EXTREME POWER (47x to 75x per inch)(0.5mm to 0.3mm exit pupil). Mainly used for resolution of double stars at the resolution limit of the instrument, or for detecting elongation of unresolved doubles. Powers up to 60x per inch are sometimes usable in rather small instruments for making gross planetary detail easier for beginners to see (ie: Jupiter's main belts or the Cassini Division in Saturn's rings). This power range is not often used in apertures above 6 inches due to seeing limitations, and requires very good optical quality in the instrument. Even when conditions are good, lunar and planetary views using this power range can sometimes seem less pleasing overall than at somewhat lower powers due to the lower light intensity and increasing interference from eye defects like floaters. However, this range can be somewhat useful for certain *specific* targets or details which require extreme scale. Examples include (for large apertures) seeing Encke's Division in Saturn's rings, the central star in M57, detail in some brighter planetary nebulae, or for resolving a few small specific lunar details. Powers from 75x to 90x per inch are occasionally used for very close double star elongation, micrometer measurements, or for optical testing, but otherwise, powers well beyond 75x per inch can often be nearly useless, especially in inexpensive "department store" telescopes.

EMPTY MAGNIFICATION (100x per inch and above). Nearly useless powers, mainly used as a marketing ploy by unscrupulous telescope retailers or manufacturers to sell small over-powered telescopes to beginners.

Clear skies to you.

--------------------
David W. Knisely
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info


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lighttrap

*****

Reged: 02/06/04
Posts: 3833
Loc: cloudy, foggy, humid NC, US
Re: How much magnification? new [Re: David Knisely]
      #537252 - 07/29/05 06:09 PM

Thanks to such excellent answers from Sixela and David Knisely, this thread has been linked from the bottom of the first post in the "Best of the Beginner's thread" pinned to the top of this forum. Thank you both.

Mike

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18" Starsplitter II f/4.5
8" Hardin Dob f/6
C5 workhorse mini SCT f/10 or f/6.3
70mm TV Ranger dual purpose birding/astro
77mm Leica Televid APO
16x70 Fujinons on UA Deluxe Mt.
12x50 Nikon SE
8x30 Nikon E2s
and many others


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