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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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JimP
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 04/22/03

Loc: South Carolina
Why? new
      #5371964 - 08/16/12 06:02 PM

Why do almost all eyepieces work well in long focus scopes (f/9 or greater)?

JimP


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BWAZ
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 11/21/05

Loc: CA
Re: Why? new [Re: JimP]
      #5371979 - 08/16/12 06:18 PM

In a long f ratio scope, the light cone is narrow so the EP needs less bending to bring the diverging light back to parallel. Less bending of the light means better control of aberration. Simply put, shallow light cone--> less bending of the light, or less steep curve inside the glass --> less aberration.

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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Why? new [Re: BWAZ]
      #5371996 - 08/16/12 06:34 PM

Cuz refractors will just let any old eyepiece into its focuser?

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Tim Gilliland
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/28/09

Loc: Sand Springs Okla.
Re: Why? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5372023 - 08/16/12 06:54 PM



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JimP
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 04/22/03

Loc: South Carolina
Re: Why? new [Re: BWAZ]
      #5372090 - 08/16/12 07:39 PM

Thanks BWAz! That certainly makes sense. So, an ES 100 degree eyepiece might perform just as well as a Televue Ethos...

JimP


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Why? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5372119 - 08/16/12 08:15 PM

Ouch!



- Jim


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MRNUTTY
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 11/22/11

Loc: Mendon, MA
Re: Why? new [Re: JimP]
      #5372192 - 08/16/12 09:36 PM

More like a GSO Superview will performance as well as a Panoptic. :-)

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Jeff Morgan
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/28/03

Loc: Prescott, AZ
Re: Why? new [Re: JimP]
      #5373298 - 08/17/12 02:31 PM

Quote:

Why do almost all eyepieces work well in long focus scopes (f/9 or greater)?

JimP




Virtually every aberration that effect telescopes and eyepieces increases inversely with focal ratio. Astigmatism is a big one for eyepieces and IIRC it increases cubically. Ouch.

Here is a good reference.


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gnowellsct
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/24/09

Re: Why? new [Re: JimP]
      #5373387 - 08/17/12 03:30 PM

Quote:

Why do almost all eyepieces work well in long focus scopes (f/9 or greater)?

JimP




IMO it's a myth (similar to all barlows are bad) that is a holdover from the era of 1.25 inch eyepieces and the hottest thing going was the debate between Kellners and orthos.

The truth is that there is a big difference in eyepiece performance once you get into modern eyepieces. I consider myself a victim of this myth. Well meaning people told me not to bother with higher end glass because it wouldn't make any difference.

But the 40mm UO MK-70 is just an eyepiece at f/11, whereas the 40mm Pentax XW is the path to The Light.

Greg N


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Why? new [Re: gnowellsct]
      #5373400 - 08/17/12 03:43 PM

Quote:

IMO it's a myth (similar to all barlows are bad) that is a holdover from the era of 1.25 inch eyepieces and the hottest thing going was the debate between Kellners and orthos.




An Erfle at F/13 can be quite magical... not so hot at F/4.

Myth, I don't think so... most eyepieces are quite decent at F/11 or slower...

Jon


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BillP
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 11/26/06

Loc: Vienna, VA
Re: Why? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5373439 - 08/17/12 04:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:

IMO it's a myth (similar to all barlows are bad) that is a holdover from the era of 1.25 inch eyepieces and the hottest thing going was the debate between Kellners and orthos.




An Erfle at F/13 can be quite magical... not so hot at F/4.

Myth, I don't think so... most eyepieces are quite decent at F/11 or slower...

Jon




Virtually everything is magical in my f/16.7. And some eyepieces that are magical in fast scopes, are doubly so in the longer focal ratio!!

Edited by BillP (08/17/12 04:04 PM)


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Why? new [Re: BillP]
      #5373477 - 08/17/12 04:23 PM

Quote:

Virtually everything is magical in my f/16.7. And some eyepieces that are magical in fast scopes, are doubly so in the longer focal ratio!!




I find that sometimes in the slow refractors, simpler eyepieces have more magic than the fancy ones. An F/13.3 or F/16.7 60mm refractor massages the light, it doesn't force it into tight bends, it's all very gentle. With such scopes, eyepieces that are gentle with the light can sparkle, they are not yanking it around with 6 or 8 separate pieces of glasses, they are easy on it, guiding it with gloved hands.

When the scope is big and fast, it bends the light at big angles and it takes an aggressive eyepiece to get that light going where it belongs.

Jon


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killdabuddha
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 08/26/11

Re: Why? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5373489 - 08/17/12 04:29 PM

Quote:

Cuz refractors will just let any old eyepiece into its focuser?







and it doesn't even make sense. dunno why it's so funny. reminds me, tho, of Al Franken's joke that also doesn't make sense...when you assume you make an a*s*s out of me and Uma Thurman...guess it's just the general silliness


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gnowellsct
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/24/09

Re: Why? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5373503 - 08/17/12 04:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

IMO it's a myth (similar to all barlows are bad) that is a holdover from the era of 1.25 inch eyepieces and the hottest thing going was the debate between Kellners and orthos.




An Erfle at F/13 can be quite magical... not so hot at F/4.

Myth, I don't think so... most eyepieces are quite decent at F/11 or slower...

Jon




We've had this discussion before. If anyone out there owns a C14 and thinks cheap eyepieces are the way to go, think again, it's wrong. Dead wrong. Greg N


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MitchAlsup
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 08/31/09

Re: Why? new [Re: JimP]
      #5373582 - 08/17/12 05:37 PM

Quote:

Why do almost all eyepieces work well in long focus scopes (f/9 or greater)?




Let us look at the basic issue: exit pupil. An EP using in a slow scope will have a small exit pupil. The same EP in a fast scope will have a large exit pupil.

For a good deal of the way through an EP the light cone is around the size it has at the exit pupil. In any event, the proportion remains rather constant from F/ratio to F/ratio.

So, the circle of light being refracted at each curved surfaces is proportional to the speed of the optical train. The bigger this is, the easier it is for this circle of light to be bent by the curved surface that is doing the refracting. {Where bent means that an aberation is increased.}


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AlBoning
sage


Reged: 03/06/11

Re: Why? new [Re: gnowellsct]
      #5373587 - 08/17/12 05:39 PM

Once upon a time it was focal ratio that ruled ... and some eyepieces will accept no other master.

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Jim Nelson
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/10/05

Loc: SE Michigan
Re: Why? new [Re: gnowellsct]
      #5373639 - 08/17/12 06:18 PM

Quote:

If anyone out there owns a C14 and thinks cheap eyepieces are the way to go, think again, it's wrong. Dead wrong.




Errr...there's a lot of room between "most eyepieces perform slightly to much better in longer focal ratios" and "one should use cheap eyepieces".


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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
*****

Reged: 06/24/03

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Why? new [Re: AlBoning]
      #5373659 - 08/17/12 06:37 PM

There is focal ratio and there is focal ratio.
I.e., it depends how the f/ratio is produced.
An f/10 refractor and f/10 newtonian both have very flat fields and close to zero inherent astigmatism and coma in the lateral field (what little of it there is).
A catadioptric scope, however, does not have as flat a field, nor have its lateral field coma or astigmatism as well corrected.
Cats designed for refractor-like images are usually f/15 and longer, or employ complex correctors somewhere in the image train.

In this era of sub-f/4 scopes, I do notice that there seem to be a lot of TeleVue eyepieces being used. I don't think that's an accident. Designers of eyepieces can make the designs more complex (and expensive to produce) to handle the short light cones with their oblique rays, but most do not.

Telescopes started with singlet lenses and f/ratios of 30-100.
When doublets came around, telescopes got "short", f/15-f/25.
The first reflectors kept up with this, at f/10-f/20.
So eyepieces didn't have to be very complex or have steep curves on the lenses to correct the images.
Once scopes became f/6-f/8, eyepieces started showing aberrations they didn't have at longer f/ratios.

You see, every design has a "Critical F/Ratio" below which the off-axis rays start causing problems like astigmatism and lateral chromatic aberration and field curvature, etc.
If those CFRs were published for every design, a lot of manufacturers would make very few sales, so the CFRs are generally NOT published.

Here is what I have for CFRs for major eyepiece types:
Huygens f/12
Herschel f/12
Ramsden f/10
Kellner f/6
Plossl f/4
Nagler I and II f/4
Monocentric f/10 (f/5 for Steinheil design)
Abbe Orthoscopic f/6
Symmetrical f/6
Hastings triplet f/4
Konig I and II f/4
Erfle II f/4
RKE f/6
Galoc f/4
Zeiss Astroplanokular (Masuyama design also) f/4

It should be noted that that does not mean that every one of the above eyepieces with a CFR of f/4 performs equally at f/4. Many of the earlier designs were originally narrower fields and have been "stretched" to produce wider fields more popular today. So that means either that the critical f/ratios need to be lengthened or that the designs should not be stretched to such a wide field. A good example of this (and I can pick on it here because it is no longer in production or available) is the 5-element Plossl from Meade, called the "Series 5000 Super Plossl". At 60 degrees, this eyepiece had a lateral field filled with chromatic aberration, astigmatism, distortion (of both kinds!) and field curvature. Had the design been confined to 50 degrees, it might have been a truly good design for the amateur astronomer. At 60 degrees, though......
Even worse, a similar design was stretched to 65-70 degrees for many low-power eyepieces sold under a variety of labels. And sold with f/4-f/6 dobs. Tsk, tsk.

So, most eyepieces are designed to work well at or above certain f/ratios, and confined to an apparent field not larger than a certain angle. If you want to expand the apparent field, lower the critical f/ratio, or both, the eyepieces will have more lenses and generally be more expensive to design and manufacture.

As they say, Wide, Cheap, Good. Pick any two.


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Why? new [Re: gnowellsct]
      #5373761 - 08/17/12 08:06 PM

Quote:


We've had this discussion before. If anyone out there owns a C14 and thinks cheap eyepieces are the way to go, think again, it's wrong. Dead wrong. Greg N




This discussion is not necessarily about cheap eyepieces, rather the fact that fast scopes are harder on eyepieces than slow scopes.

Consider a comparison between your C-14 ~F/11 versus my 12.5 inch F/4.06 + Paracorr = F/4.67. The Newtonian has a wide, flat field that is relatively free of coma and other aberrations. The C-14 has a curved focal plane as well as some residual aberrations.

In any event, there are probably no eyepieces which perform reasonably well in the fast Newtonian but do not preform reasonably well in C-14. On the other hand, there are many eyepieces which perform reasonable well in the C-14 but are poor performers in the fast Newtonian.

In fact, I would guess that your beloved XW-40 is "just another eyepiece" in an F/4.06 + Paracorr while in your F/11 SCT is apparently is quite a remarkable performer.

Jon


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JimP
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 04/22/03

Loc: South Carolina
Re: Why? [Re: Starman1]
      #5375064 - 08/18/12 06:29 PM

Wow Starman, that is great information. Thank you very much.

best,

JimP


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