Telescope Reviews: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera

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Equipment Discussions >> Video and Electronically Assisted Astronomy

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera
#5391973 - 08/28/12 05:43 PM Attachment (135 downloads)

I thought I would start a new tread on this camera..So many pages of great info on the the last one...

So just got my camera today ,without the built in filter..It was included in a bag..

This camera is SMALL very small...looks like it will be great,I plan on using it on solar broadcasting...
The wire controll buttons is on ebay for about $5 delivered from a usa source..I will be wiring the buttons soon when I get back home,the wires will have to be sodered to pads on the back pc board...Small but doable....
So here are some pics of the camera,hope to do some testting tonight on nsn..
THIS IS THE CAMERA I GOT

http://www.aliexpress.com/product-fm/583938938-1-3-SONY-960H-EXview-HAD-CCD-II-700TVL-0-0003Lux-Real-WDR-OSD-3D-DNR-wholesalers.html

Edited by mega256 (08/31/12 10:00 AM)

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5391975 - 08/28/12 05:44 PM Attachment (97 downloads)

another

Edited by mega256 (08/28/12 05:45 PM)

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5391977 - 08/28/12 05:45 PM Attachment (91 downloads)

camera and remote cable

Edited by mega256 (08/28/12 05:46 PM)

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5391979 - 08/28/12 05:46 PM Attachment (83 downloads)

Inside camera...back
Im not sure,but it looks like only 2 wires go to the main
pc board.For button controll....might be a way to remote with only 2 wires?
Kind of like the back pc board is some kind of button convertor ?...Also power and video is on the othe cables.?

Edited by mega256 (08/28/12 06:14 PM)

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5391981 - 08/28/12 05:47 PM Attachment (71 downloads)

Inside camera front

Edited by mega256 (08/28/12 05:48 PM)

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5392013 - 08/28/12 06:07 PM Attachment (64 downloads)

Another of the back pc board asy..

Edited by mega256 (08/28/12 06:08 PM)

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5392023 - 08/28/12 06:17 PM Attachment (62 downloads)

The back buttons

Edited by mega256 (08/28/12 06:17 PM)

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darethehair
member

Reged: 09/11/09

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5392054 - 08/28/12 06:46 PM

Interesting thread and pics!

It sure isn't obvious to me where the wires (or which ones) would go. Please show pics and instructions when you are done. Could you provide a link to the eBay source this this wire harness? Also, I cannot tell what the intended use of the two 'ends' of that cable are supposed to provide -- one looks like 'power', and the other '???'.

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mclewis1
Thread Killer

Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: New Brunswick, Canada

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: darethehair]
#5392164 - 08/28/12 08:06 PM

The other is composite video.

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StarmanDan
Post Laureate

Reged: 08/27/07

Loc: Deep in the heart of Texas

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mclewis1]
#5392180 - 08/28/12 08:19 PM

Yea, the cable coming off the board are for power (red & black), auto iris (white, yellow, red & black) and video (white & black). The buttons are surface mounted and the wires will need to be soldered to the front side of the board.

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mclewis1
Thread Killer

Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: New Brunswick, Canada

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: StarmanDan]
#5392191 - 08/28/12 08:30 PM

Anyone found a source for the LNTECH OSD cable - the one with the headers and not the bare wires?

http://www.lntech.com.cn/en/products/productsinfo.asp?id=538

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mclewis1]
#5392214 - 08/28/12 08:52 PM

This the cable that I got wih wire tabs on the end..I dont think the Lntech 300 has a header and must be wired in...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290754079840?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

There are pads that say up/dw/rt/lft...
Now to try out the camera...

Post Extras:

John59
sage

Reged: 11/06/11

Loc: Round Rock,TX

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5392491 - 08/29/12 12:14 AM

Quote:

I thought I would start a new tread on this camera..So many pages of great info on the the last one...

So just got my camera today ,without the built in filter..It was included in a bag..

This camera is SMALL very small...looks like it will be great,I plan on using it on solar broadcasting...
The wire controll buttons is on ebay for about $5 delivered from a usa source..I will be wiring the buttons soon when I get back home,the wires will have to be sodered to pads on the back pc board...Small but doable....
So here are some pics of the camera,hope to do some testting tonight on nsn..

Looked for you on NSN. Did you make it and I missed you?

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: John59]
#5393099 - 08/29/12 12:23 PM Attachment (121 downloads)

Some pics from last night.....no color,got to figure that one out yet...Mostly 4 seconds
AT6RC F4.5 Ntech 300 ist light

Edited by mega256 (08/29/12 01:12 PM)

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5393102 - 08/29/12 12:26 PM Attachment (83 downloads)

another pic

Edited by mega256 (08/29/12 12:26 PM)

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5393104 - 08/29/12 12:28 PM Attachment (94 downloads)

another 4 seconds agc med br mid

Edited by mega256 (08/29/12 12:28 PM)

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5393107 - 08/29/12 12:30 PM Attachment (67 downloads)

This camera is Very sensetive....But needs a remote to use..
The buttons are very small..I will need to add remote for better testting

Edited by mega256 (08/29/12 12:31 PM)

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5393109 - 08/29/12 12:32 PM Attachment (76 downloads)

One more.....

Edited by mega256 (08/29/12 12:33 PM)

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5393211 - 08/29/12 01:20 PM

My 1st light/night Conclusion.....

This camera is much more sensetive than my samy sdc435..
To the point that this camera can use heaver Filters than the samy can..So lp could be knocked down some...It will be interesting to see its use by the users here...
The "300" model is very small and compac...and very light.
At a coust of about $75....a very good investment!(IMHO)
But this small camera should be used with some sort of remote,and many options are there...The simple button remote will be easy to ad(as soon as I get a small iron..lol)....FURTHER Test to come.

Post Extras:

darethehair
member

Reged: 09/11/09

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5393339 - 08/29/12 02:20 PM

Quote:

This camera is much more sensetive than my samy sdc435

How easy would it be for you to do a side-by-side comparison (as I alluded to in the other thread)?

Also, isn't that wiring harness 'overkill' i.e. there are already ports on the camera (and ready-made cables available) for compositive video output and 12v power input -- to control just the button controls doesn't need wires for that, right?

Post Extras:

mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: darethehair]
#5393379 - 08/29/12 02:44 PM

Untill I get a remote there wont be any more testting,comparisons by me.The 300 does not have rs capacity as the larger one does,but it does have coax capacity.The wires are what is needed,there are no headers in the small unit (300).(for a simple button remote)
I also like the simple remote switch vrs a computer pgm...as in outreach I dont use a computer..just a monitor..
I like the KISS system..

But the camera works well just as it is,once the settings are made ,many subjects are just point and shoot.

Post Extras:

James Cunningham
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 08/07/10

Loc: Maryland

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5394432 - 08/30/12 07:51 AM

I just ordered that wired remote. Once you get yours installed, PLEASE show us pix and tell us exactly which wires go where. What scope were you using and did you have any reducers on it. Thanks.
Jim

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: James Cunningham]
#5394711 - 08/30/12 10:54 AM

I used a AT6RC with a x.5 reducer on the camera..I did not use any filters,but next time I will,I expect better results.I need to get a small soldering iron to install
the switchs...

Post Extras:

mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5395876 - 08/30/12 11:49 PM Attachment (82 downloads)

Well I went out to Radio Shack and bought a 15 watt soldering iron..And I did it!
I used the white cable with power and video and the 5 switch conections....
My cable went like this..

2x red =power
2x black and 1 brown = ground
yellow =video

purple =enter
orange =down
gray =up
white =left
green =right

Now when u remove the back frame on the right are pads that are labled...near the black/white connector..
they run vertical and are labled as
L
R
SET (ENTER)
UP
DO (down)

YOU CAN SEE POWER AND VIDEO..thats it ,works great..
I will try and add photos...

Edited by mega256 (08/30/12 11:52 PM)

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5395899 - 08/31/12 12:06 AM Attachment (68 downloads)

Another view
There are 2 places to wire to...the vertical pads...as labled...
OR
the points in blue..Its up to you...I did the blue points..This was simpler for me to do with-out more tools.
L=left,R=right,E=enter,U=up,D=down....G=common(ground)
5 wires and common...
also V=video (center pin),,,then also +12volts.

Edited by mega256 (08/31/12 09:24 PM)

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5395927 - 08/31/12 12:26 AM Attachment (63 downloads)

More mod pics..
Drilled hole for cable

Edited by mega256 (08/31/12 12:27 AM)

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5395929 - 08/31/12 12:28 AM Attachment (53 downloads)

wire points besides vertical pads..

Edited by mega256 (08/31/12 12:29 AM)

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5395931 - 08/31/12 12:30 AM Attachment (55 downloads)

Picture for above dwng..

Edited by mega256 (08/31/12 12:30 AM)

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5395935 - 08/31/12 12:31 AM Attachment (59 downloads)

Done fin.....All buttoned up..(lol)...
ITs done ,just add power and the video to the Monitor or pc
and works great...also the back buttons still work also.

Edited by mega256 (08/31/12 09:30 PM)

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alexaggie
journeyman

Reged: 01/10/12

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5396055 - 08/31/12 03:10 AM

Great work! Did you solder the cable into headers to put on there? or did you just solder the control directly on to the board? It seems that this route would greatly streamline all of the cables and things coming off the camera.

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: alexaggie]
#5396335 - 08/31/12 09:51 AM

I went to the board,there is a little more room...But you can use the header and a meter to check you have thre right solder pads. as per dwg and photo..The header is great if u can solder to it,being very very small..BTW the original switchs,video all work as b4 the mod.

Edited by mega256 (08/31/12 09:54 AM)

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darethehair
member

Reged: 09/11/09

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5396721 - 08/31/12 01:12 PM

Quote:

I went to the board,there is a little more room...But you can use the header and a meter to check you have thre right solder pads. as per dwg and photo..The header is great if u can solder to it,being very very small..BTW the original switchs,video all work as b4 the mod.

So now you can do the deeper evaluation/comparison that we are hoping for?

Maybe an easy question to start off with: is it 'better' than the SCB-2000? You have already stated that it is a lot more sensitive (which sounds good to me).

Post Extras:

James Cunningham
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 08/07/10

Loc: Maryland

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5396722 - 08/31/12 01:13 PM

Can you post a picture of the wires once they have been connected and does it work?

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: darethehair]
#5397331 - 08/31/12 09:10 PM

Im not saying that this camera is better than my trusty samsung 435...It does seam to be more sensetive.It seams to me that at the same 4 seconds of exposure time,the lntech 300 seams to get more exposure of the subject...This can be bad or good depending on ur use and conditions....
The moon is out now and I will hve to wait to do some deaper test.....And Yes the remote works...(Jim)..To realy understand how the wires go on you need to look at your camera(pull the 4 screws off for the back frame,as above).
This is only for a 300 type camera...The other units are different. ..If you are not able to use a ohm meter,this button option mod may not be for you..Cables may be different colors ect and should be traced out..
This was as easy as my samsung 435 buttton mod.

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5399584 - 09/02/12 12:40 PM Attachment (96 downloads)

Some results..from 9-1-12...M27 AT8RC x.5 reducer..
These were at x1024,,,,med agc,.6...
Adjustments of brightness and AGC are touchy....and work
together..
These 2 pics are with an Orion uv/skyglow imaging filter on.

Edited by mega256 (09/02/12 12:57 PM)

Post Extras:

mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5399589 - 09/02/12 12:43 PM Attachment (76 downloads)

The SDC435 was more simpler for me to use..BUT This camera
may just be new to me...again x1024 (17 seconds)M27

At High AGC this would take much less time.

Edited by mega256 (09/02/12 12:47 PM)

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alexaggie
journeyman

Reged: 01/10/12

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5400871 - 09/03/12 10:58 AM Attachment (87 downloads)

Finallly got mine out last night for the first time. This is my first attempt at using a camera with my scope, but it worked pretty well I think... Got this pic of M42 early this morning...it is processed, but I was amazed at the lack of noise. [image][/image]

Post Extras:

John59
sage

Reged: 11/06/11

Loc: Round Rock,TX

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5401021 - 09/03/12 12:42 PM

Quote:

Some results..from 9-1-12...M27 AT8RC x.5 reducer..
These were at x1024,,,,med agc,.6...
Adjustments of brightness and AGC are touchy....and work
together..
These 2 pics are with an Orion uv/skyglow imaging filter on.

Bob,
Great shots! I agree this one is not as simplistic as the Samsung. I think it has more potential but requires much more tweaking for every object. I was trying to put together a settings post but I have found that it is never the exactly same in almost all the settings from object to object. I am having problems getting the color to really come out. I have resorted to “Night” mode just to play with the AGC, brightness etc for now. Also to get a faster response time for initial focusing I turn off SDNR as it really slows down the response to adjustments. Glad you like the camera. I think it will be a good one once all the characteristics are mapped out. Look forward to seeing more. If you ever stream on NSN with it let me know I would like to see the results.

Post Extras:

John59
sage

Reged: 11/06/11

Loc: Round Rock,TX

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: alexaggie]
#5401036 - 09/03/12 12:50 PM

Quote:

Finallly got mine out last night for the first time. This is my first attempt at using a camera with my scope, but it worked pretty well I think... Got this pic of M42 early this morning...it is processed, but I was amazed at the lack of noise. [image][/image]

Alex,
Glad your first try was a good one! I think you will enjoy this camera. This will open up a whole new realm of possibilities with your telescope. Keep us posted with your results.

Post Extras:

alexaggie
journeyman

Reged: 01/10/12

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: John59]
#5404252 - 09/05/12 01:48 AM

Thanks John! hopefully when the weather gets better I will see you at the dam sometime.

Post Extras:

Teabagger
member

Reged: 08/18/12

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: alexaggie]
#5405233 - 09/05/12 04:39 PM

how did you process the image of m42?

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GlennLeDrew
Postmaster

Reged: 06/18/08

Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: Teabagger]
#5405324 - 09/05/12 05:42 PM

I too was wondering about how it was 'processed', for processing is normally performed on images of dim targets having low contrast. The inner Huygenian region of M42 is just about as bright as nebulosity can get. For this reason it's a poor test target for the assessment of sensitivity and noise levels.

To me, this image simply appears like a single frame taken at a long focal ratio and/or short exposure time. The fact that this pretty near brightest of all nebulosities appears this 'dark' is by itself no great confidence builder on performance with less brilliant objects.

Post Extras:

alexaggie
journeyman

Reged: 01/10/12

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: GlennLeDrew]
#5406909 - 09/06/12 05:10 PM

yes, its a single frame with a short exposure....I just meant that I ran it through photoshop. It was also taken from the border of a white zone in my backyard.

Post Extras:

GlennLeDrew
Postmaster

Reged: 06/18/08

Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: alexaggie]
#5407005 - 09/06/12 06:15 PM

And it reveals just how very bright the inner part of M42 is, whereby a nice and colorful view can be had, with still a 'black' sky, under horrid light pollution. This is why such bright targets do not make good tests for imaging equipment where sensitivity and noise characteristics are desired to know; even un-cooled, low-sensitivity, noisy cameras on warm nights can deliver good looking results. If only a *lot* more nebulae (many planetaries do, but they're almost universally tiny) had such high surface brightness!

Post Extras:

alexaggie
journeyman

Reged: 01/10/12

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: GlennLeDrew]
#5407309 - 09/06/12 09:27 PM

Indeed. That is my first photo EVER...taken when working out the kinks with the camera. It is through an 8" dob, so until I get my EQ platform running and can get out to a dark site I have to stick with very short exposures. I did crank it up to 512 and 1024, but as I have no tracking it was a smear across the frame. The noise, however, was not much more than in the picture I uploaded. The brightness of that nebula was blowing out the image at those speeds. The shutter setting for the picture was x8. As I am new, it seemed to me that for an exposure time that short, under those conditions, the camera will be sensitive enough for some pretty good imaging under more ideal conditions. The next time I get out to my dark site I am going to try M101 as that one is absolutely impossible to see from my house.. That should probably be a better measure of potential.

Post Extras:

James Cunningham
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 08/07/10

Loc: Maryland

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: alexaggie]
#5407413 - 09/06/12 10:32 PM

Where is the image?

Post Extras:

scout72
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 05/12/08

Loc: SF Bay Area

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: James Cunningham]
#5407598 - 09/07/12 12:36 AM

Quote:

Where is the image?

About 9 posts back-

Post Extras:

rkayakr
super member

Reged: 10/27/10

Loc: Tallmadge, Ohio

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: scout72]
#5407868 - 09/07/12 08:37 AM

What are people using for capture? I tried the EasyCAP / WXastro combo that I use with my Samsung and could not acquire an image from the Ntech.

Post Extras:

James Cunningham
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 08/07/10

Loc: Maryland

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5410605 - 09/08/12 07:11 PM

Did you ever figure out why the camera was only showing black and white at first?
Jim

Post Extras:

Teabagger
member

Reged: 08/18/12

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: rkayakr]
#5410658 - 09/08/12 07:45 PM

Quote:

What are people using for capture? I tried the EasyCAP / WXastro combo that I use with my Samsung and could not acquire an image from the Ntech.

Im using some cheap kworld ub445 capture device(that was a real pain to get to work with win 7), and it works fine now with sharpcap. wxastro, ampcap, Videolan. It has been pouring rain since my camera arrived so I have only had a chance to set it up in house.... Really looking forward to getting it under the skies.

Post Extras:

Teabagger
member

Reged: 08/18/12

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: Teabagger]
#5411051 - 09/09/12 01:00 AM Attachment (77 downloads)

Got out with the camera tonight in very light polluted skies. mainly playing with the set up, brand new to me cg5 and first time out with ccd... with no filters whatsoever, i generally washed out the screen over 32X sense up. I just decided to take frames when my comp died and that ended my night with it. heres a snapshot I took.

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: James Cunningham]
#5411162 - 09/09/12 04:46 AM

Yes Jim the agc vrs the brightness made a diference keep agc low and brightness under 20 and color with daylight will work

Post Extras:

James Cunningham
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 08/07/10

Loc: Maryland

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5411241 - 09/09/12 07:36 AM

Thanks. I had my brightness all the way up to 85.
Jim

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barbarosa
professor emeritus

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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5419166 - 09/13/12 01:09 PM Attachment (62 downloads)

Here are a series of images that mark waypoints on my learning curve for the LN-300. One lesson learned is that at least some settings you change in the menu will revert to the prior settings after a time unless you exist and save after each change. I did not take notes but as I get closer I will record the settings.

The images are SharpCap "snapshots" and were not post processed. CPC1100 scope and a .5x reducer on the cam.

First image.

Edited by barbarosa (09/13/12 01:15 PM)

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barbarosa
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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: barbarosa]
#5419172 - 09/13/12 01:12 PM Attachment (59 downloads)

Second image.

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barbarosa
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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: barbarosa]
#5419174 - 09/13/12 01:13 PM Attachment (51 downloads)

Last image. This is not the best image seen, but I changed something in the menu (small buttons compared to finger size) and lost the initial settings.

Edited by barbarosa (09/13/12 01:17 PM)

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Teabagger
member

Reged: 08/18/12

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: barbarosa]
#5419436 - 09/13/12 03:39 PM

I had similar results as you lastnight once it hit the meridian and it stopped tracking m27 so I switched to m57, that was much more pleasing to the eye.

Edited by Teabagger (09/13/12 03:46 PM)

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Teabagger
member

Reged: 08/18/12

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: Teabagger]
#5419439 - 09/13/12 03:42 PM Attachment (66 downloads)

Here is the shot of m57 from last night... so due to my success/lack of with the ntech i went and bought a mallincam xtreme today so tonight will probably be cloudly.

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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: Teabagger]
#5419525 - 09/13/12 04:41 PM

So far, the results from this camera suggests that, in warmer weather at least, they're somewhat useful on the brightest DSOs. In order to have a chance on objects of lower surface brightness, it will require temperatures more in the freezing domain.

Another approach is to see about getting the f/ratio down to f/2, if not faster. But this is easier said than done at larger apertures outside of something like the Hyperstar system.

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James Cunningham
Carpal Tunnel

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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: Teabagger]
#5419588 - 09/13/12 05:20 PM

You will be happy with the Xtreme. I gave up on my Lyntech and sold it. The Extreme is so much nicer.
Jim

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mclewis1
Thread Killer

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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: James Cunningham]
#5419628 - 09/13/12 05:44 PM

The Xtreme should be much nicer, it's something like 20x more expensive.

I really hope someone modifies one of these Lyntech cameras with cooling. I think that could make for a nice cheap sub 20s camera.

There's clearly a spot between these security cameras and the high end Mallincams for something that can handle 20-30s integration times and deliver reasonable images. Something that would be very well suited for use with some of the less expensive alt az goto scopes.

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Teabagger
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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mclewis1]
#5419712 - 09/13/12 06:34 PM

I can honestly say that I am not disappointed in the performance of ntech, its a 75 dollar camera. I dont think I could have found a 75 dollar eye piece that would have been better, than what the ntech provided..

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Hemmi
super member

Reged: 09/08/10

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mclewis1]
#5420062 - 09/13/12 10:06 PM

Quote:

The Xtreme should be much nicer, it's something like 20x more expensive.

I really hope someone modifies one of these Lyntech cameras with cooling. I think that could make for a nice cheap sub 20s camera.

There's clearly a spot between these security cameras and the high end Mallincams for something that can handle 20-30s integration times and deliver reasonable images. Something that would be very well suited for use with some of the less expensive alt az goto scopes.

I modified mine with an cold finger and TEC. I have yet to have time to build the TEC controller. I'm not sure how much difference it will even make. There are few hot pixels in my camera. Noise is more about the DSP then cooling I think. I'm sure it will help some, we will see if I ever get around to making the TEC controller.

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ccs_hello
Postmaster

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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: Hemmi]
#5420540 - 09/14/12 08:19 AM

A casual and happy subject:

Remember a movie (forgot which one) that an alien civilization sent a drone to Earth trying to find "VO GER". The aliens found NASA's Voyager with its exterior being torn and few characters were forever gone....

This camera reminded me the same story. The artistic character "L" in the camera logo made people believe the camera is Ntech

. It's actually LNTECH, see
http://www.lntech.com.cn/

Oh, almost forget, ex view should be written as Exview. It's SONY's trademark.

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello

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barbarosa
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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: Teabagger]
#5420948 - 09/14/12 01:22 PM Attachment (107 downloads)

For this capture, I installed an f/6.3 reducer on the CPC1100, and a .5x reducer on the LN-300. EXPOSURE set to NORMAL, AGC set to OFF, SENs UP set to OFF, and other processing set to zero or OFF. LENS to ELECTRIC and SPEED set to x1024. DAY/NIGHT set to DAY.

The targets were the Dumbbell, the Ring, M13 and the Cocoon Nebula. As you would expect M13 was way too bright. The Cocoon was reccognizable but faint.

The Samsung SCB-2000 still gets the nod over the LN-300, but the gap is smaller than I first thought. Also the LN-300 has many fewer dead or stuck pixels than the Samsung.
No post processing other than to convert the image from .PNG to .JPEG. Not bad for $80.

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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: barbarosa]
#5421188 - 09/14/12 04:06 PM

David,
That M27 image is more like it! The amount of sky glow suggests you have not insignificant light pollution, which helps to suppress instrumental noise. I'd be curious to see the Cocoon, if you captured it too; this will better show the capability of the camera.

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barbarosa
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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: GlennLeDrew]
#5421253 - 09/14/12 04:44 PM

Glenn-

Sky glow galore! Traped between the San Francisco Bay dome/wall and exessively illuminated large suburbs to the E and SE. The Milky Way is faintly visible (some nights) near the zenith.

I did not capture the Cocoon. The 7 daay forecast is for mostly clear (until the marine layer moves in)and I will try again tonight.

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James Cunningham
Carpal Tunnel

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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: barbarosa]
#5421258 - 09/14/12 04:47 PM

I can't ever see the Milky Way here on the East Coast not far from Washington, D.C. and Baltimore.

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barbarosa
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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: James Cunningham]
#5421439 - 09/14/12 07:19 PM

Quote:

I can't ever see the Milky Way here on the East Coast not far from Washington, D.C. and Baltimore.

Bi-costal equality at last!

Setting aside a the issue of whether lighting the night sky is really a selfish, foolish and counter-survival trend, there might be another factor hiding the Milky Way--age related decrease in night vision, yours, mine and so very many others.

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James Cunningham
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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: James Cunningham]
#5426813 - 09/18/12 07:16 AM Attachment (65 downloads)

I just got an e-mail from Jock who sells the camera and a remote control cable. He sent me some photos of the OSD cable connections. Here they are:

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James Cunningham
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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: James Cunningham]
#5426816 - 09/18/12 07:17 AM Attachment (57 downloads)

Here is the 2nd one. She charges $10.00 for the OSD cable including shipping.

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barbarosa
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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: Teabagger]
#5427349 - 09/18/12 12:57 PM Attachment (92 downloads)

Further adventures with the LN-300. Setup the same- CPC1100, f/6.3 reducer/corrector, .5x reducer, and additional local light pollution from "tests" of the sports field lighting at the nearby college.

Camera settings, lens to ELECTRIC, AGC to OFF, BLI, HLI, and WDR to O. Color to Manual.

SharpCap snapshots saved as JPEG to reduce file size.

M51 (about 15 degrees Alt.). Captures of this target with a Samsung SCB-2000 are only somewhat better.

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barbarosa
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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: barbarosa]
#5427354 - 09/18/12 01:00 PM Attachment (72 downloads)

A galaxy (one of the brighter ones, name not recorded)

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barbarosa
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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: barbarosa]
#5427364 - 09/18/12 01:04 PM Attachment (73 downloads)

Bubble Nebula

Edited by barbarosa (09/18/12 01:05 PM)

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barbarosa
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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: barbarosa]
#5427380 - 09/18/12 01:09 PM Attachment (63 downloads)

Cescent Nebula

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barbarosa
professor emeritus

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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: barbarosa]
#5427408 - 09/18/12 01:21 PM Attachment (79 downloads)

I also captured M31 using various combinations of faster shutter speed and wide dynamic range or highlight or backlight compensation as well as auto settings. In some the galactic core was small and bright and the star field was brighter and more detailed. In others hints of the galaxy structure could be seen, but not dramatically so.

M31 at x1024

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: James Cunningham]
#5427610 - 09/18/12 03:11 PM

Jim...Great find...!Good price too...looks like it is way simpler.....
BTW this little camera may have potential!
But are u shure this cable is for the iNtech 300,dosnt
look like mine....there are no pins in this small (300) camera....might it be for the bigger version?

Or do u take the wires off the back board and put this cable in place of the back board and wire connectors to front ccd board?

Edited by mega256 (09/18/12 03:22 PM)

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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5428108 - 09/18/12 07:35 PM

David,
Nice results! I'm particularly impressed by the capturing of both the Bubble and Crescent.

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James Cunningham
Carpal Tunnel

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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5455323 - 10/04/12 04:13 PM

I have no idea how the wiring would work.

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barbarosa
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LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: mega256]
#5463816 - 10/10/12 01:05 PM Attachment (59 downloads)

This little cam works at f/10 without a focal reducer! Here is the first of two snapshot images taken with the LN-300-R (x1026)through a CPC1100 using only the stock diagonal. Video proc amp adjustments of course during viewing, but no post processing other than to convert the image to jpeg for a smaller file size. The air was fairly steady but thin cirus clouds were moving thorugh the area when I did the capture; a few minutes later the nebula was not visible at all.

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barbarosa
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Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: barbarosa]
#5463841 - 10/10/12 01:25 PM Attachment (110 downloads)

The Ring Nebula @f/10. File not processed except for conversion to jpeg.

Edited by barbarosa (10/10/12 01:35 PM)

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GlennLeDrew
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Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: barbarosa]
#5464311 - 10/10/12 07:24 PM

That's a strange looking M57. The colors would seem to be reversed, where normally it's green on the inner parts with a red rim.

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barbarosa
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Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: GlennLeDrew]
#5464397 - 10/10/12 08:37 PM Attachment (89 downloads)

Well my main point was only that this camera works acceptably at f/10, However you are right about the colors.

This image was the first in a hasty series, cut short by increasing cirus clouds overhead. I was also trying filters, sky glow, IR, and O3, and it could be that I failed to return the saturation or hue settings to default.

So under less than clear conditions is the second Ring image.

Edited by barbarosa (10/10/12 08:39 PM)

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: barbarosa]
#5505081 - 11/05/12 08:32 AM

One of the big advantages with this 16 second camera over the 8 second type camera is that with that extra intergration time..is.That filters might be used to combat the LP that most of us has to live with!Trying to use filters with short interation times is very hard to do.
Filters and this camera might be where it shines over the sammy.

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nytecam
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Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: mega256]
#5506309 - 11/06/12 03:30 AM

Interesting results for $75 cam

Is there a PAL version

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: nytecam]
#5506593 - 11/06/12 10:08 AM

Yes there is a PAL version, its an option with a check off box as to which camera type to get.Price is the same,,,and also ask to have the ir filter removed,they will include it in the box..

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nytecam
Postmaster

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Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: mega256]
#5507047 - 11/06/12 03:07 PM

Thanks for that - sounds good

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yaesu77
member

Reged: 11/04/12

Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: nytecam]
#5510095 - 11/08/12 02:54 PM

Greetings to all, i also waiting for this camera (the PAL version), i hope to do some nice videos or photos to be posted here on the forum.

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nytecam
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Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: yaesu77]
#5512706 - 11/10/12 05:25 AM

Quote:

Greetings to all, i also waiting for this camera (the PAL version), i hope to do some nice videos or photos to be posted here on the forum.

Welcome to the forum

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charles genovese
sage

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Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: nytecam]
#5513223 - 11/10/12 01:49 PM

I don't understand why the first images in this thread showed a Mallincam extreme control panel ?

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mclewis1
Thread Killer

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Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: charles genovese]
#5513541 - 11/10/12 06:50 PM

Charles,

That particular MC Xtreme control app has both control and video presentation capabilities (there are quite a few MC control apps and some don't have video capabilities). The video side gives you some nice capabilities that some of the simpler webcam based video apps don't have (or don't make quite as easy to use).

So I would assume that Bob simply used the video side of the MCX control app when trying out his LNTech camera.

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: mclewis1]
#5514287 - 11/11/12 11:22 AM

Yes correct indeed...Just makes things easy....and the same
for all my test..
cs

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yaesu77
member

Reged: 11/04/12

Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: mega256]
#5532190 - 11/21/12 12:40 PM

Hi, has anyone used this camera for meteor observation? Thank you.

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StarmanDan
Post Laureate

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Loc: Deep in the heart of Texas

Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: yaesu77]
#5532860 - 11/21/12 07:43 PM Attachment (43 downloads)

For meteor observation you don't necessarily need a camera with this long of an integration time. I've used the SBC-2000 with great success. Usually the integration times I use are around .3 seconds in order to keep the video relatively fluid and to keep the meteors from showing up as inanimate streaks. At this exposure I'm able to see stars down to around 5th magnitude and the Milky Way is clearly visible from my green zone observatory.

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yaesu77
member

Reged: 11/04/12

Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: StarmanDan]
#5536673 - 11/24/12 06:02 AM

Thank you StarmanDan

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: yaesu77]
#5562614 - 12/09/12 03:05 PM

Just a reminder with this camera menu system..
YOU MUST SAVE your settings after making a change
IF NOT THE CAMERA WIIL GO BACK TO THE LAST SETTING B4 CHANGES..(about 15 seconds)

So save setting changes
FYI

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Tom and Beth
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Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: StarmanDan]
#5565029 - 12/10/12 10:32 PM

Quote:

For meteor observation you don't necessarily need a camera with this long of an integration time. I've used the SBC-2000 with great success. Usually the integration times I use are around .3 seconds in order to keep the video relatively fluid and to keep the meteors from showing up as inanimate streaks. At this exposure I'm able to see stars down to around 5th magnitude and the Milky Way is clearly visible from my green zone observatory.

I have a 2.8 - 12 MM Auto Iris coming, Thinking about some form of camera I can cobble into a Weather & Cloud observation. Meteors would be a sweet bonus. Is the shorter end of this lens about what you are using? Will your cam allow daytime observations, or am I being foolish and will just fry the detector?

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StarmanDan
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Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: Tom and Beth]
#5565102 - 12/10/12 11:21 PM

My lens is a 1.4-3.1mm and I've got mine set about halfway on the zoom setting so your 2.8 should do alright. My lens is also an auto iris and I haven't yet to experience any issues using it during the day.

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Tom and Beth
Carpal Tunnel

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Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: StarmanDan]
#5565182 - 12/11/12 12:08 AM

That's great to hear! Thank you for the specs on your lens.

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svrider1000
member

Reged: 06/28/12

Loc: Sylmar, California

Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: mega256]
#5617333 - 01/11/13 02:02 PM

Quote:

Yes correct indeed...Just makes things easy....and the same
for all my test..
cs

Hi Bob,

When I select my capture card in Mallincam Extreme Control with composite and I select preview, I do not see any video from the LN-300. In other apps I have to select Pal or NTSC to see video. Do you know what option you selected to be able to view live video from the LN-300?

Thanks

Jim

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mclewis1
Thread Killer

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Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: svrider1000]
#5617391 - 01/11/13 02:45 PM

Jim,

What options do you see when you select Source on the video tab?

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svrider1000
member

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Loc: Sylmar, California

Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: mclewis1]
#5617648 - 01/11/13 05:42 PM

It seems to work now. Thanks for the reply. It seems like as soon as I ask for help things start to work on their own

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svrider1000
member

Reged: 06/28/12

Loc: Sylmar, California

Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: svrider1000]
#5633433 - 01/20/13 03:37 PM

Hi,

I had more time to play around with this camera. I really like it a lot. I am figuring out how much Sense Up to use for each object. My only challenge now is getting the color back and how to get Jupiter to show up with less light so that I can see the bands.

Thanks for any info anyone has on this.

Jim

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: svrider1000]
#5633516 - 01/20/13 04:35 PM

There is an option for svideo (normal mcx) or video rca,that needs to be checked..
After you select your video card..VIDEO SOURCE..

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barbarosa
professor emeritus

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Loc: "lamorinda", CA

Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: svrider1000]
#5633967 - 01/20/13 09:42 PM

Quote:

I am figuring out how much Sense Up to use for each object. My only challenge now is getting the color back and how to get Jupiter to show up with less light so that I can see the bands. Jim

Jim-
I will take a run at these questions.

SensUp--I don't use it. Unless a DSO is very bright (M42) I start with x1024. Then go to shorter integrations if needed.(Exposure -Normal, LENS- ELECTR. SPEED x1024)

No or little color when when AGC is ON, haven't checked for color using SENSUP.

For Jupiter, start with SPEED 1/60 or so then move to faster speeds until cloud bands are visible. Then you might want to try the one or two faster speeds. Likely when you see clouds you won't see the moons very well.

My CPC is cooling down now and I will target Jupiter on NSN. If you sign in, I will be glad to try various settings. If not tonight then anytime you see me on NSN.

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svrider1000
member

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Re: LN-300 x1024@f/10!! new

[Re: barbarosa]
#5633998 - 01/20/13 09:58 PM

mega256 Thanks for the reply. I was using version 2.5 on my laptop and 2.8 on my desktop. The desktop had color and the laptop didn't I am going to test out 2.8 on my laptop tonight hopefully.

barbarosa,

Thank you for all of the settings info. I am not using the global Sense Up but the one below Electrical. I will try and join your broadcast tonight

Thank you both.

Jim

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svrider1000
member

Reged: 06/28/12

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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5636495 - 01/22/13 09:38 AM

Quote:

Yes Jim the agc vrs the brightness made a diference keep agc low and brightness under 20 and color with daylight will work

I totally missed this post. I noticed last night after I finished viewing in black and white again that my color was at AUTO even after I thought I set it to Day. Hopefully I can test I can test it out tonight before the clouds come in.

Thanks

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svrider1000
member

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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: svrider1000]
#5648257 - 01/28/13 01:57 PM Attachment (34 downloads)

Once I set it to day it was able to see color. Last night was not very clear so I was only able to look at M42 for about 5 minutes and I could not see Jupiter to test it out. I attached an image below that is not very good because of the conditions and amount of time I had to take it.

Thanks

Edited by svrider1000 (01/28/13 01:59 PM)

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svrider1000
member

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Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: svrider1000]
#5648274 - 01/28/13 02:01 PM Attachment (31 downloads)

Here is a black and white image of what I was able to see with my 80mm f5 refractor before I set it to Day

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svrider1000
member

Reged: 06/28/12

Loc: Sylmar, California

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: svrider1000]
#5680086 - 02/14/13 07:25 PM Attachment (13 downloads)

Here is a quick video I took last night. I sort of took a small part and looped it a few times. I also added an image. These are not stacked at all.

Test Video of Orion Nebula with XLT 150 and LN-300 CCD camera

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mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: svrider1000]
#5685791 - 02/17/13 07:29 PM Attachment (13 downloads)

Its been awhile,...But just did some solar with this cam and a Lunt 60Tha..

Edited by mega256 (02/17/13 07:32 PM)

Post Extras:

mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5685796 - 02/17/13 07:33 PM Attachment (18 downloads)

and 1 more
its a great solar camera.

Edited by mega256 (02/17/13 07:34 PM)

Post Extras:

svrider1000
member

Reged: 06/28/12

Loc: Sylmar, California

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5686003 - 02/17/13 09:30 PM

Very nice images Bob.

Post Extras:

mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: svrider1000]
#5690314 - 02/20/13 07:54 AM

This camera is easy to use on the Sun and planets,,
But I still prefer the Samsung 435(200) for deep sky..
Its just easy to use...over the Ntech..With DSO the entech
seams to be very touchy about agc.

Post Extras:

E-Ray
member

Reged: 03/26/10

Loc: Austin, TX

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5700756 - 02/25/13 11:04 PM

Hi Bob,
Can you confirm the solder location for the Ground (G)terminal for the hand controller? Is it the bottom left of the 5 pins in your photo with blue marks for solder points or is it the center pin?

Regards, Ed

Post Extras:

E-Ray
member

Reged: 03/26/10

Loc: Austin, TX

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: mega256]
#5700762 - 02/25/13 11:07 PM

Hi Bob,
Can you confirm the solder location for the Ground (G) terminal for the hand controller? Is it the bottom left of the 5 pins in your photo with blue marks for solder points or is it the center pin?

Regards, Ed

Post Extras:

mega256
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 05/10/07

Loc: N of Tampa

Re: Ntech 300(small version) x1024 ex view camera new

[Re: E-Ray]
#5701252 - 02/26/13 09:34 AM

Its on the left side marked with G as in post #5395899

Its the same as the coax ground any common point will work.

Edited by mega256 (02/26/13 09:38 AM)

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