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Claudio
sage

Reged: 07/26/04

Re: A Navy optical book, including binoculars repair [Re: daniel_h]

Hello Daniel,
I improved the sketch in order to show a binocular with 58-74 IPD range that swings its left body for 60 degrees, which eyepiece –hinge distance has been calculated to be 37,53 mm. My previous drawing was describing the swinging of the Sard 7x50, that doesn’t reach 60° when changes the IPD from 58 to 74 mm (but does it by using more of its wide IPD range). As I am working with a lent PC and I am not familiar with its drawing software, I abandoned the attempt of making a new sketch and simply wrote “60°” on the red angle. The sketch I post now describes (doesn’t demonstrate, demonstration is in the text) more accurately the left half body swinging 60° to change the IPD from 58 to 74 mm.

Claudio

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Claudio
sage

Reged: 07/26/04

Re: A Navy optical book, including binoculars repair [Re: Gordon Rayner]

Quote:

It seems that Claudio's isosceles triangle is different than the isosceles triangle which is the proper figure for use in the so-called "Tail of Arc" ( see the book described in the first post of this thread, where it is, unfortunately , called "equilateral") method to work for 3-axis parallelism.

He is describing nearby locations on the binocular. I fail to fully understand his substantial work's relationship to the goal of 3-axis parallelism.

Hello Gordon,
probably this is due to at least one imprecision in my text, where I wrote
“When opening the IPD, after getting a parallel the left optical axis and the mechanical axis at 58 mm IPD, there will be a deviation of that optical axis, i.e. the axis will travel along an arc of a circle.”
“When opening the IPD, after aligning the left optical axis with the target at 58 mm IPD, there will be a deviation of that optical axis, i.e. the axis will travel along an arc of a circle.”
With the binocular on the fixture, when the IPD increases, the left optical group revolves around itself, and its optical axis, not yet parallel to the hinge, describes at infinity an arc of a circle. This circle is small when at 58 mm the optical axis is not too much unparallel to the hinge, large when that parallelism is far from being obtained.
Tha angle subtended by that arc and the amount of rotation of the left optical group (thus of the left half body) are evidently identical, and the amount of rotation of the left half body is clearly the difference between the angle left eyepiece – hinge – right eyepiece at 74 mm IPD and the same angle at 58 mm IPD.
In the attachment this angle is 60° and the triangle is equilateral, but it could be different depending on the distance eyepiece – hinge and on the IPD range, as demonstrated in my first post.
Adopting the range 58-74 mm, the military binoculars I could examine (except the Sard 6x42) were showing a triangle still too close to the equilateral one to visualize it as isosceles during the collimation process. Therefore I find that the choice of defining the triangle as equilateral, description not far from the truth in those binoculars (and true using a slightly wider IPD), was a reasonable idea. After all, that was an operator’s manual, with information on a lot of instruments in the limited space of a book.

Quote:

The geometry described is generally applicable, to such as the Fuji UBMM projection arrangement, the B&L Rochester factory (RIP) projection target collimator, the Trioptics/Moeller-Wedel device, the Clave Paris arrangement, the Navy Mk. 13 projection binocular repair device, laser techniques, and no doubt other equipment.

I have never seen the collimation devices of Trioptics and Clave Paris. Any pictures and/or information?

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Gordon Rayner
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 03/24/07

Re: A Navy optical book, including binoculars repair [Re: Claudio]
#5415106 - 09/11/12 12:20 PM

Thank you for this clarification of your work.

It should be straightforward Googling to find Moeller-Wedel /Trioptics literature. They often exhibit at SPIE conventions in the U.S. Maybe also in Europe, Japan, etc.

Edited by Richard McC (09/12/12 05:52 AM)

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Claudio
sage

Reged: 07/26/04

Re: A Navy optical book, including binoculars repair [Re: Gordon Rayner]
#5415134 - 09/11/12 12:35 PM

If not possible here at Cloudy Nights, I would very very grateful if you could send those pictures privately. Perhaps I have pictures of other instruments that could be interesting for you

Claudio

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Claudio
sage

Reged: 07/26/04

Re: A Navy optical book, including binoculars repair [Re: Gordon Rayner]
#5415906 - 09/11/12 06:47 PM

Gordon,

is the Trioptic device similar to the Moeller Wedel Pruefgeraet shown here by Albrecht Koehler?

http://www.akoehler.de/test/binokular/index.htm

By the way: Bill, in the site of Koehler there is mention of the importance of the hinge in the collimation procedure.

Claudio

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Gordon Rayner
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 03/24/07

Re: A Navy optical book, including binoculars repair [Re: Claudio]
#5416501 - 09/12/12 01:00 AM

Yes. I believe that is the same thing. M-W and Trioptics are related, a spin-off, or some other shuffle of ownership. Trioptics acquired Davidson Optronics in West Covina, Calif.

Zeiss West had a similar arrangement. It appeared in adverts which showed a technician at work, in the New York office in the 1970's. ( Walter Schuetzenduebel, RIP)

Mike Rivkin had one of those 1960's (?) Zeiss West for sale at the 2003 Abrahams convention in San Diego.

I had not recently re-read the Koehler article which you linked. He does not mention the USN arrangement, which probably dates from the 1930's or the 1920's.

He discussed the use of a reversed binoviewer! I thought of that independently, as discussed previously in this forum.

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Claudio
sage

Reged: 07/26/04

Re: A Navy optical book, including binoculars repair [Re: Gordon Rayner]

Quote:

Zeiss West had a similar arrangement. It appeared in adverts which showed a technician at work, in the New York office in the 1970's. ( Walter Schuetzenduebel, RIP)

Mike Rivkin had one of those 1960's (?) Zeiss West for sale at the 2003 Abrahams convention in San Diego.

Gordon, is the Carl Zeiss West collimator you saw the same CZ West device shown here?
Claudio

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Gordon Rayner
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 03/24/07

Re: A Navy optical book, including binoculars repair [Re: Claudio]
#5417144 - 09/12/12 11:51 AM

Yes that is the same alignment device model. The knobs, the light green color, the CZ logo( your picture lacks clarity , but that is a CZ logo, no?) on the support for the two parallel target collimators...

If the adjustments on the binocular are screws through, or accessible via, the prism housing coverplates, the operator who would attempt to work would need to contort into uncomfortable body positions, use a mirror, change body position frequently, ...

The Fuji UBMM , a projection system onto a groundglass, using a concave mirror as the source of parallel light, flat folding mirrors, a projection lens, and a wiggle window upon which the front of the binocular rests, is used by oscillating the hinge, to make little triangles whose apices (the hinge location) the operator visualizes mentally. There, gravity works opposite the direction of that found in the CZ or the M-W/Trioptics.

There, front eccentrics loosened to be adjustable ( by temporarily removing 0-rings on the FMT-SX, or MT-SX, for example, or loosening setscrews/grubscrews)are likely have gravity separate the objective assembly from the body. Fall out. I sold my UBMM, after studying it, but not using it.

I should like to visit the factories in Japan to see how they work around this problem . They may have some custom fallout preventer for each binocular model? Maybe they use the UBMM as a checker, and some other arrangement for production assembly? Does any reader have knowledge of proven solutions to the fallout problem which are not slow?

Nor is the CZ,nor the M-W/ Trioptics (?) well suited, without the addition of a body clamp, or several body clamps for differing specimens, for binoculars with inaccessible hinges.
Those considerations , plus the weight involved, were some of the reasons I did not buy the one which I saw in 2003.

Might this be the same specimen as the one I saw? Have you any idea how many were made? Is that one in Europe, Israel, USA ...?

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Cory Suddarth
Vendor

Reged: 08/10/06

Loc: Henryetta, OK. USA
Re: A Navy optical book, including binoculars repair [Re: BillC]
#5420055 - 09/13/12 10:00 PM

Relax all! Give me your attention for an hour or so, sit down on the Mark V and I'll have you collimating a glass in no time! Forget all the trig and triangulations, caulculations, etc! The only difficult part (for a rookie) is manipulating the optics to where they need to be! Requires patience, but it isn't rocket science! Gordon, I understand your "less than isosceles" explaination, but I know I can have Joe Anyone doing binocular collimation in a day or less with my teaching method based on the OM 3&2 system! Spring loaded prism plate, side push prism, objective essentric, whatever! Doing it, and understanding the steps! Your graphs, pictures, diagrams, and explainations to the "n"th degree are outstanding! But way over MY head and I overhauled AND collimated, and shipped back to my customers 12 binoculars last week!

Cory

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BillC
on a new path

Reged: 06/04/04

Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
Re: A Navy optical book, including binoculars repair [Re: Cory Suddarth]
#5420258 - 09/14/12 12:00 AM

How many would you have shipped back if you had had to deal with all that triangle stuff? They need to see it--once; if slow of thought, twice.

Remember, Isoseles was the strongest man in Geek Mathology!

BillC

PS Cormaster . . . it looks like I R gonna be in ophthalmic soon!. . . Yippeeee! . . . Can you tell I'm excited!? Humph, 'didn't think so!

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Gordon Rayner
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 03/24/07

Re: A Navy optical book, including binoculars repair [Re: Cory Suddarth]
#5420935 - 09/14/12 01:11 PM

The " graphs, pictures, diagrams.." are Claudios, not mine. His familiarity with graphical software is way beyond my nonexistent experience there.

If one wants to pursue the Navy method, the contents of the first post provide the guidance needed to assemble equivalent hardware and to acquire a Navy book reprint.

Use of a 2-angular axis fixture from ADM, and the use of a reversed, eyepiece-less 1X binoviewer as the beam combiner for simultaneous view through the binocular half and peek-around periscopic direct view of the simulated or real target at infinity are , I believe, original breakthroughs (though Koehler in the link from Claudio, above, independently mentions the use of a reversed binoviewer).

Google's version of the original German becomes unusual English, so there are many miles to go in machine translation.

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Claudio
sage

Reged: 07/26/04

Re: A Navy optical book, including binoculars repair [Re: Cory Suddarth]
#5420981 - 09/14/12 01:40 PM

Quote:

Relax all! Give me your attention for an hour or so, sit down on the Mark V and I'll have you collimating a glass in no time! Forget all the trig and triangulations, caulculations, etc! The only difficult part (for a rookie) is manipulating the optics to where they need to be! Requires patience, but it isn't rocket science! Gordon, I understand your "less than isosceles" explaination, but I know I can have Joe Anyone doing binocular collimation in a day or less with my teaching method based on the OM 3&2 system! Spring loaded prism plate, side push prism, objective essentric, whatever! Doing it, and understanding the steps! Your graphs, pictures, diagrams, and explainations to the "n"th degree are outstanding! But way over MY head and I overhauled AND collimated, and shipped back to my customers 12 binoculars last week!

Cory

Cory,
graphs, pictures, diagrams and trig are mine. I just thought that some explanation about this recurrent question “equilateral or isosceles” (recurrent here at CN) could have been interesting if not for everybody at least for members involved in binoculars overhauling. To explain that, I used part of an appendix of the text on collimation prepared for the course I gave here in Italy two years ago. This theme was in an appendix exactly because it was not so vital and could distract from the main theme (collimation procedures). So I am far to think that during the collimation process one should dissert on how much equilateral is the triangle to be constructed.
Nevertheless, I find interesting each and every theme related to binoculars production and overhauling. If I had been Joe Anyone and had been so lucky to learn from a very experienced teacher as you are and to start practising with a collimator, probably I would have found less need of asking myself so many questions about overhauling and collimation. But many years ago, when I was Claudio Anyone, I started working in a shop where binoculars repair was considered less remunerative, thus less interesting, than repairing cameras. They showed me a bunch of dusty binoculars and told me “fix them please”. After a few binoculars collimated for my IPD, a customer with a quite different IPD objected that his binocular was still not collimated. I started asking myself how this could happen and with time I arrived to understand the importance of the hinge and built my first (and still working) collimating device for binoculars. Could I have done this if I hadn’t been curious to know every aspect on binoculars?
Members who would like to restore and collimate binoculars of their collection (at least those binoculars that don’t worth a professional repair) are probably interested in understanding collimation as deeply as to be able to design and build a collimating device.
Now, very seriously: I think that here there is half a dozen people which personal experience and knowledge on these themes are precious for me, and I think that my contribution is of some value for them. I consider that there should be a common will to avoid that our knowledge gets lost. But instead of this aim, I see that very often there are only useless controversies that muddle the other members and take them away from these themes. In the last years my presence at CN has been seesawing because of this polemic spirit that is distant from my feeling and that frankly should stay far from discussions on technical themes.
Claudio

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FrankL
sage

Reged: 07/30/09

Re: A Navy optical book, including binoculars repair [Re: Claudio]
#5421247 - 09/14/12 04:38 PM

Knowledge and scholarly study are valuable in themselves and should be respected. Although I am a bit of a dunderhead at mathematics, I can see the beauty in it and respect those who appreciate and enjoy it and take the time to explain it to others. Thank you Claudio for your contributions.

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eklf
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 05/12/07

Loc: Carrboro, NC
Re: A Navy optical book, including binoculars repair [Re: FrankL]
#5421255 - 09/14/12 04:46 PM

Quote:

Knowledge and scholarly study are valuable in themselves and should be respected. Although I am a bit of a dunderhead at mathematics, I can see the beauty in it and respect those who appreciate and enjoy it and take the time to explain it to others. Thank you Claudio for your contributions.

Very well said.

And indeed many thanks to others like Glenn Ledrew, Gordon, BillC, EdZ etc. who have taken pains to help make this forum a treasure trove of knowledge.

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Cory Suddarth
Vendor

Reged: 08/10/06

Loc: Henryetta, OK. USA
Re: A Navy optical book, including binoculars repair [Re: eklf]
#5425105 - 09/17/12 09:57 AM

Claudio,
Seriously, hats off to you! Both for your spirit of peace and your very intellegent disection of the three axis principle. I am certainly not smart enough to have figured that out for myself, but was very fortunate enough to have been trained by the USNavy. I've never stressed over what kind of triangle I am seeing on the collimator, never understood all the "rock throwing" on the topic. When the glass is done and collimated, it's just that, on to the next one. I would be honored to have you sit through my week long class, so if you are ever planning to visit this part of the world, let me know well enough in advance, we'll hook you up.

Peace to you,

Cory

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Gordon Rayner
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 03/24/07

Re: A Navy optical book, including binoculars repair [Re: Cory Suddarth]
#5425447 - 09/17/12 01:28 PM

Claudio, in re your post #5415134 09/11/12, above:

Yes,in an attempt to balance the time which you have put into posts with graphics , I am willing to send to you, as email attachments, the photos which I made of selected portions of 50-70 year old U.S.government documents, and the Clave Paris excerpt in French. That might boost Clave sales, if they yet make those binocular adjustment instruments, no doubt \$\$\$\$\$, which I very much doubt. It is a vertically arranged, gravity assisted, concave mirror and flat folding mirrors, one with holes, projection onto a screen, with what seem to be very fine fit and finish,arrangement. They used a hinge clamp.

Do Ets. S.R. Clave yet exist? Serge Clave would be approaching or beyond 100 years of age, so has probably retired.
At one time, in the 1960's or 1970's, Cave Optical, Cross Optical (Gene Cross), and some other US entrepreneurs imported/ made feelers to import, the highly regarded Clave eyepieces for telescopes. I went to the Ets. S.R.Clave ( right-tilt accent on the e) address in 1989, which I recall to be 9 Rue Olivier Metra (?), but they were closed. I believe that it was a Saturday.

Mine is gordiray@att.net

Edited by Gordon Rayner (09/19/12 11:08 AM)

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Simon S
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 01/07/07

Loc: Crawley West Sussex UK
Re: A Navy optical book, including binoculars repair [Re: Gordon Rayner]
#5425866 - 09/17/12 05:11 PM

Claudio, it's all Klingon to me but thank you for your time and willing to share your knowledge.

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Claudio
sage

Reged: 07/26/04

Re: A Navy optical book, including binoculars repair [Re: Simon S]
#5427226 - 09/18/12 11:55 AM

Cory, thank you for your kind words. Two years ago I was tempted to participate to your class, and certainly also now I’d like to do it. Availability of time and flight costs are the main problem, so for the moment being it isn’t possible, hopefully in the future it could be. It would be very exciting and instructive, and I promise I would leave at home set square and compasses . Thank you wholeheartedly for your invitation, Cory.

Gordon, thank you very much for sharing information. I’ll sent you a message with my E-address.

Many thanks to FrankL, eklf and Simon S, I am glad to see that you share the sense of my appeal.

Claudio

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BillC
on a new path

Reged: 06/04/04

Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
Re: A Navy optical book, including binoculars repair [Re: Claudio]
#5427493 - 09/18/12 01:56 PM

Claudio:

Be judicious in visiting Cory!

He has a device in his shop that emits parallel light rays! You could get collimated and not even know it!

BillC

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Claudio
sage

Reged: 07/26/04

Re: A Navy optical book, including binoculars repair [Re: BillC]
#5428806 - 09/19/12 07:23 AM

Quote:

Claudio:

Be judicious in visiting Cory!

He has a device in his shop that emits parallel light rays! You could get collimated and not even know it!

BillC

Oh, in a nation where statesmen talk about the need of “parallel convergences” we don’t fear a fistful of parallel light rays!

Claudio

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