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Andy Taylor
Twisted, but in a Good Way
*****

Reged: 09/24/08

Loc: Epsom - UK
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5471632 - 10/15/12 01:55 PM

Quote:

skyfall...as in the most recent iteration of the Bond saga...which just came out?

sorry about the lenses! What's the loss in dollars? (What is a quid in relation to a pound.)




Yes.

1 Quid = 1 Pound.

500,000 Pounds = $803,400...


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Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: CollinofAlabama]
      #5471638 - 10/15/12 01:58 PM

You wrote, Collin, "The realization of 'artificial' MUST predate Homo sapiens. After all, our ancestor Homo habilis didn't get his name from nowhere. Do you think Homo erectus couldn't tell the tools or campfire pit left behind from some other group of hominids didn't fall down from heaven? The awareness of 'artificial' vs 'natural' predates Homo sapiens, and we inherited this understanding from our savvy ancestors, already well aware of the difference."

The key word in your statement is "realization".

I contend, and have contended in previous posts to this thread that people often use ideas without being aware they are using those ideas. The example I used was the appropriation and utilization of philosophical concepts used by scientists so that they can go about doing science. This appropriation of ideas without awareness of those ideas, applies a fortiori to those of us are not scientists as much as we are the consumers of popularized summaries of science.

The ability to appropriate and utilize ideas without awareness applies a fortiori to the utilization of technologies without a conceptual awareness. As something of an example, how many people understand how the toilet the use, works? Few.

............................

Next, you wrote, "How many other civilizations might we find still clinging to superstitious dogmas."

Among those superstitious dogmas to which people cling, should we include the enlightenment ideal? That is, the idea that a perfect human condition could be achieved through the use of reason alone? I contend, as do many others, especially those of the so called existentialist movement, that the enlightenment idea was proven wrong manifestly a hundred or so years later in the trenches of the first world war.

.......................

Further, you wrote, "Until the counter reformation, the Roman world was fundamentally illiterate and happy to keep it that way (as were...Islamic...religious societies of the pre-Luther era). But it took the printing press AND a simple alphabet AND the political freedom the Reformation afforded (thanks to Gutenberg, the Romans of 500BC and Luther and the northern German kings) to light the spark that let the human mind soar, ultimately unshackled by medieval belief systems.

How much credit for, as you wrote, "to light the spark that let the human mind soar" should we give to the preservation of texts of Aristotelian realism preserved in the monasteries of Europe and by Islamic philosophers, whose subsequent release at the end of the medieval period will form the basis of the modern scientific revolution?

It seems to me, that though the printing press was essential to this enlightenment, it was not nearly as important as the preservation and subsequent re-introduction of Aristotelian realism into the european environment in terms of political and scientific modernity. To say otherwise would be akin to giving Kennedy most of the credit for landing on the moon when he was simply one of the final steps in a scientific and political ladder.

.......................

Finally, you wrote, "I'm with Jarad, we have no N=1, other than us, and we are, at present, unable to reach anyone, really, in our present technological state."

I raised the n=1 issue in this thread to make the point that we have no way to make the assertion that because life exists here we can assume it exists elsewhere. Jarad subsequently confirmed my basic recall of what n=1 meant mathematically, and then beautifully explained the math behind n=1, and then pointed out that because of this we can only conclude the chance of extra-terretrial life is greater than 0. However, because there has been no communications or contacts received, we have no idea of knowing what the odds are between 0 (no life elsewhere) and 1 (life prevalent elsewhere).

It then follows, a fortiori the same would apply to the existence of extra-terrestrial intelligent life, sentient life, and technological advancement. Greater than 0 but where between 0 and 1 we have no idea.

My desire with this thread was to point out that the silence (lack of extra-terrestrial communication or contact) was deafening to me and offered a number of reasons for that silence. Among my proffered suggestions was the one you stated above; we lack sufficient technological advancement to make/receive the contact.


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Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Andy Taylor]
      #5471642 - 10/15/12 02:00 PM

You had $800,000 worth of lenses in your personal possession? Or, are you a business? Otto

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scopethis
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/30/08

Loc: Kingman, Ks
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5471751 - 10/15/12 03:11 PM

yea..lest war and conflict are simply a product/result of existence and a "thinking being"....alas.. the War in Heaven dogma...

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Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: scopethis]
      #5471790 - 10/15/12 03:48 PM

The question of what is the root of war is an interesting question and worthy of much discussion...but probably not here.

However, the question was not the root of war...the question was...can the enlightenment ideal irradicate war? The carnage of the first world war, one of many examples which can be cited, provide evidence that it was not able to do so.


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Andy Taylor
Twisted, but in a Good Way
*****

Reged: 09/24/08

Loc: Epsom - UK
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5471855 - 10/15/12 04:39 PM

Quote:

You had $800,000 worth of lenses in your personal possession? Or, are you a business? Otto




EEErrrrmmmm! No. I wish I was that rich. I work for a rental company.

And now - back to the topic.


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Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Andy Taylor]
      #5471883 - 10/15/12 04:59 PM

OK back to the topic....

I think this bone has been gnawed on till there's no more grizzle, but here goes

We agree we have no conclusive evidence of extra-terrestrial intelligence having made contact with us or having communicated with us.

Why the silence?
- there aren't any out there
- there aren't enough out there to overcome the geometries of distance and time
- the geometry of scale in the universe makes contact unlikely even if there are a quarter billion possible contact events in any given galaxy
- they don't want to make contact; they don't care to make ocntact
- they are kept from making their presence known

The second question I wished to explore with this thread was what the possible/likely impact would be when human imagination begins to get its mind around the fact (yet to be proven, of course) that we are alone (that we is all the intelligence there is), or that for all practical purposes we are alone?

Otto


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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5472079 - 10/15/12 06:39 PM

Well, for all practical purposes we are alone. But that's pretty much the default scenario anyway, so I don't see it as something humanity needs to get its mind around. That's already how we behave.

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CollinofAlabama
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 11/24/03

Loc: Lubbock, Texas, USA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5472598 - 10/16/12 12:33 AM

Otto, I think we agree about the Enlightenment, or at least the foolish nationalism it, to some degree, begat, with the wretched consequences of WW1, and, therefore, WW2.

You obviously love Aristotle and it struck a chord with you for me to point out the utter folly of some of his 'natural philosophizing'. But don't blame me for his lame dabbling into science. He took it on himself. OTOH, it was the Catholic Church that persecuted Galileo in the name of his dabbling. Rather interesting, really, since I strongly doubt Aristotle would have been very impressed with Roman Catholicism, and more likely would have preferred Marcus Aurelius, all things considered, though, of course, we will never know.

OTOH, the Enlightenment led to real democracy in the world, this nation being the first to try it in the greatest quantity to date. But, of course, how 'Enlightened' were these Enlightenment folk? Well, much better off than their Inquisitorial Medieval predecessors, but that didn't mean they were as Enlightened as we are today, or, with any hope, we are as Enlightened as our descendants 150 years hence. One has to hope human social evolution will advance, though it's true this is not a certainty.

I think this is the whole point of this post. Will humanity harness the power and technology needed to leave this world with greater ease (a necessity if we are to survive our Sun's ultimate demise, and general irritability long before it actually puffs out)? We have a long time to figure it out, of course. And it's kind of foolish to point out how little progressed we are in this endeavor compared to where we will have to be to make it a possibility. But given we have, as a species, maybe a couple billion years to achieve this, and that's longer than complex life has existed on the earth, and not much longer than our oxygenated atmosphere, I have to be an optimist and bet we'll make it.

When the sky is a bright canary yellow

Although we seem to be stressing Mother Earth pretty terribly with our 7 billion selves, we're still hanging in there, and like to believe modernity will make life better all the way around.

Aristotle did set some foundations for the scientific method, that's true, but he was only one small player, less significant, really than many, many others. He did a lot in his day, but his day came and went, and wasn't really followed up on. In fact, he became, like Ptolemy, somewhat deified by the powers that be, and in his name reactionary powers tried to hold scientific advancement back, so my love of Aristotle is tempered by the horrible things done in his name. I realize Aristotle proper had no hand in the sins of the Inquisition, but the damage is done. I think if Aristotle could see a jet airliner land and learn about the world today and our science, he would be in awe and wonder.

And this is why I'm an optimist. I like to believe that, should I somehow be magically brought to life 2000+ years hence, I, too, would be enamored of all the progress we've made.

Although we still have many problems, we have overcome many, too, and we certainly understand our universe much better than all the generations previous. And we don't have slavery, or at least not much of it, and it is seen by all educated, decent people as abhorrent. One day, we'll have the same attitude about women's rights, gay rights, etcetera, and people will universally abhor prejudice and hatred in the same we have come to look at an institution that seemed just the cost of doing business in Aristotle's day.

But all these advancements require human interaction and working together. Science builds upon science. We must stand on the shoulders of those giants before to peer over the dark murkiness of the unknown. We have very, very far to go, but look at where we've come from! One can't help but hope for the best, and an educated populace, and democracy, are the path to this ultimate success of humanity.

I'm not a Panglossian, and I am well aware of the challenges we face, and they are daunting. Global warming is shaping up to be a BIG problem for our grandchildren. I'm honestly worried about my young daughters seeing the beaches I've known and loved as a child. Will they still be there in 10 years? But humanity is resourceful. Idiots won't talk about the lack of global warming once thousands die and habitats are ruined the world over. And in democracies those adhering to such ideas, like "Segregation now, Segregation tomorrow, Segregation foreva", disappear. But even with our tendency to learn the hard way, we still learn, and act, and that's what's most important.

As for the 2.5 billion years, Otto, early in this discussion, someone pointed out that stars closer to the core were subject to more dust, and more general life threatening ugliness. On top of that, someone recently posted that, averaging it out, a billion intelligent life habitats put us something like an average of 4000 ly apart. Dave's right, we're alone right now, and it's likely we'll have to stay that way for at least the next few hundred years, till we master those terawatt lasers in space. But one day, may not in this millennium, but I believe we will. And we'll have the corresponding capacity to receive faint, 4000 ly distant laser transmissions, too. And it might take many thousands of years to talk, and we might be able to send sub-light speed (though, maybe close to .9x the speed of light?!) emissaries, and they do likewise. But Dave's right, all this is futuristic mumbo jumbo for silly primates who can't even live on their planet without cooking themselves.

Kyrie Eleison

The gods help those who help themselves.


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DarkSkys
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 10/11/10

Loc: In the dark desert of Eastern ...
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5472760 - 10/16/12 05:27 AM

Quote:

OK back to the topic....

I think this bone has been gnawed on till there's no more grizzle, but here goes

We agree we have no conclusive evidence of extra-terrestrial intelligence having made contact with us or having communicated with us.

Why the silence?
- there aren't any out there
- there aren't enough out there to overcome the geometries of distance and time
- the geometry of scale in the universe makes contact unlikely even if there are a quarter billion possible contact events in any given galaxy
- they don't want to make contact; they don't care to make ocntact
- they are kept from making their presence known

The second question I wished to explore with this thread was what the possible/likely impact would be when human imagination begins to get its mind around the fact (yet to be proven, of course) that we are alone (that we is all the intelligence there is), or that for all practical purposes we are alone?

Otto




While I think this has probably been said before, We have only just started to look.

If Humans survive the next 1,000,000 years, and in those years we are able to moniter every tiny portion of the sky, in exuisite detail and precision, 24 hours a day, every day for those million years, and we never hear/find anything, then we may be able say we are the only ones.

If you quit looking before you have even scratched the surfance, you can't draw concusions.
If we survive long enough, and our technology becomes advanced enough, mabey we will become the life we have sought to find(spread thought the galaxy), and the questions answer won't matter?



Edited by DarkSkys (10/16/12 05:38 AM)


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Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: DarkSkys]
      #5472792 - 10/16/12 06:26 AM

Quote:




If Humans survive the next 1,000,000 years, and in those years we are able to moniter every tiny portion of the sky, in exuisite detail and precision, 24 hours a day, every day for those million years....






If we do that we will have searched a Earth centered bubble that will reach barely 1/3 of the distance to Andromeda.

1 million light-years down 13.699 billion to go. (or ~46.999B if you account for expansion)


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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: CollinofAlabama]
      #5473304 - 10/16/12 01:11 PM

Quote:


I'm not a Panglossian, and I am well aware of the challenges we face, and they are daunting.




If civilization (not merely humanity) survives with continuity for the next 200 years, I'll be happy to become a panglossian.

At that point I'll only be 442 years behind on my home projects, but at least I'll feel better about relaxing and taking my time on them.


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Rick Woods
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5473513 - 10/16/12 04:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:


I'm not a Panglossian, and I am well aware of the challenges we face, and they are daunting.




If civilization (not merely humanity) survives with continuity for the next 200 years, I'll be happy to become a panglossian.




Personally, I've become a Frisbitarian.
We believe that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and you can't get it down.


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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5473562 - 10/16/12 04:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


I'm not a Panglossian, and I am well aware of the challenges we face, and they are daunting.




If civilization (not merely humanity) survives with continuity for the next 200 years, I'll be happy to become a panglossian.




Personally, I've become a Frisbitarian.
We believe that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and you can't get it down.




That's one way to spin it.


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Jarad
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/28/03

Loc: Atlanta, GA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5474071 - 10/16/12 09:27 PM

Okay, we had to remove the last couple of posts for moving into fairly blatant religious proselytizing. I would like to allow the discussion to continue, as long as it sticks to the topic without straying into religious territory. That is expressly against the TOS.

Thanks,

Jarad


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Qwickdraw
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 03/03/12

Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Jarad]
      #5475028 - 10/17/12 12:47 PM

Otto, I admire and respect your interjection of faith into this discussion and I think it has a place. However, as we have seen and as I have experienced firsthand in the past on CN any discussion other then a passing thought on the subject will not be tolerated and is quickly squashed. To that end, you may enjoy this website which actually promotes debate on all kinds of subjects including science v. religion.

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/atheism/TAM2VEMBIJAGHCBBK/p665

I have hundreds of posts on it myself.


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Jarad
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/28/03

Loc: Atlanta, GA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #5475227 - 10/17/12 02:35 PM


Please read the second post in the SASE forum guidelines:
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/80005/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1

Thanks,

Jarad


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scopethis
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/30/08

Loc: Kingman, Ks
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Jarad]
      #5477222 - 10/18/12 03:24 PM

the reason Earthlings don't hear anything from out there is because the out there isn't there anymore...all the galaxies etc are gone..all we see is the light..

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Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5479058 - 10/19/12 03:49 PM




The second question I wished to explore with this thread was what the possible/likely impact would be when human imagination begins to get its mind around the fact (yet to be proven, of course) that we are alone (that we is all the intelligence there is), or that for all practical purposes we are alone?

Otto




Pesse (That would make for a very non-nonsensical Universe) Mist


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Rick Woods
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Pess]
      #5479462 - 10/19/12 08:35 PM




The second question I wished to explore with this thread was what the possible/likely impact would be when human imagination begins to get its mind around the fact (yet to be proven, of course) that we are alone (that we is all the intelligence there is), or that for all practical purposes we are alone?

Otto




I'm still waiting for signs of intelligent life on Earth.


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