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Muffin Research
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/28/07

Loc: Belgium
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: llanitedave]
      #6289058 - 01/03/14 06:01 AM

Quote:


Sorry maugi, I thought the question was a joke. The only way to know whether you're a microbe is to ask "Are you small?"




To which the answer would be a resounding yes!
Or no.. depending on the frame of reference and the type of balloon.

It's all relative isn't it

I thought the question was a joke as well.. even an aggressive one.. as if Maugi was a microbe and Dave spoke IN him.. Dave would even be smaller than a microbe.


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Qwickdraw
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 03/03/12

Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: llanitedave]
      #6289065 - 01/03/14 06:11 AM

Quote:


Vent organisms are carbon-based, they have a DNA genetic system, they use the same amino acids and proteins and ribosomes that the rest of life on Earth uses.





Which is to say they adapted to the vents from another environment. Maybe during an ice age?


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Muffin Research
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/28/07

Loc: Belgium
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: GregLee1]
      #6289076 - 01/03/14 06:22 AM

Quote:

Quote:

As I think the consensus is that for something to be true or a 'fact' that it has to be repeatable and shared.. otherwise it's just a loony tune.



And is that a fact?




It's an agreed upon opinion / consensus.
It might be false-consensus effect.
Although I'm pretty sure the person claiming the experience without this 'irrefutable proof' thing or without the rest of us being 'alien probed' is going to have hard time not being regarded as the fruitcake.

Turns out most 'facts' have a half-life which kinda makes it difficult to be a fact in the first place.
Shouldn't 'fact' be 'in effect' or rather a contraction of in effect and in affect as everything is constantly transforming and changing to an outcome/consequence which instantly affects to a different effect?
Making the 'fact' just a handpicked sample in the process.


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maugi88
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 08/25/13

Loc: SE MN
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: llanitedave]
      #6289252 - 01/03/14 09:44 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Dave am I one of the microbes in which you speak?




Quote:


I know I shouldn't get small when I'm drivin', but, uh, I was drivin' around the other day, you know and a cop pulls me over. And he goes, 'Hey, are you small?' I said, 'No, I'm tall, I'm tall.' He said, 'Well, I'm gonna have to measure you.' They've got a little test they give you; it's a balloon, and if you can get inside of it, they know... you're small. And they can't put you in a regular cell either, because you walk right out.



/Steve Martin




I must be the microbe. I don't understand how your reply relates to my question.

Dave made a statement ending in irrefutable. I asked what he meant by that. Then Greg completely insulted me so I let him know it bothered me.

The next thing I know, a joke about intelligent microbes turns into an insult toward someone on this forum. I asked if it was me.

I guess I got my answer.

Thanks Dave.





Sorry maugi, I thought the question was a joke. The only way to know whether you're a microbe is to ask "Are you small?"




I feel very silly. I didn't get it that way. It can be hard to see the humor in the mere words on a page.

What Greg said was very condescending to me. I was hurt and I guess I just let those feelings propagate.

My bad, Dave you have always been very fair, insightful and funny for that matter. I am sorry I didn't get it. Please accept my apologies, I am feeling a little embarrassed right now.


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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: maugi88]
      #6289401 - 01/03/14 11:12 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Dave am I one of the microbes in which you speak?




Quote:


I know I shouldn't get small when I'm drivin', but, uh, I was drivin' around the other day, you know and a cop pulls me over. And he goes, 'Hey, are you small?' I said, 'No, I'm tall, I'm tall.' He said, 'Well, I'm gonna have to measure you.' They've got a little test they give you; it's a balloon, and if you can get inside of it, they know... you're small. And they can't put you in a regular cell either, because you walk right out.



/Steve Martin




I must be the microbe. I don't understand how your reply relates to my question.

Dave made a statement ending in irrefutable. I asked what he meant by that. Then Greg completely insulted me so I let him know it bothered me.

The next thing I know, a joke about intelligent microbes turns into an insult toward someone on this forum. I asked if it was me.

I guess I got my answer.

Thanks Dave.





Sorry maugi, I thought the question was a joke. The only way to know whether you're a microbe is to ask "Are you small?"




I feel very silly. I didn't get it that way. It can be hard to see the humor in the mere words on a page.

What Greg said was very condescending to me. I was hurt and I guess I just let those feelings propagate.

My bad, Dave you have always been very fair, insightful and funny for that matter. I am sorry I didn't get it. Please accept my apologies, I am feeling a little embarrassed right now.




I guess you had to have been there. When I was young, Steve Martin's "Let's Get Small" routine was one of my favorites.


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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #6289445 - 01/03/14 11:40 AM

Quote:

Quote:


Vent organisms are carbon-based, they have a DNA genetic system, they use the same amino acids and proteins and ribosomes that the rest of life on Earth uses.





Which is to say they adapted to the vents from another environment. Maybe during an ice age?




The tube worms, crabs, and crustaceans there might have evolved rather recently. The fact that different vent systems often have their own unique communities implies that those communities might well have evolved in place, or at least in the region, since the formation of those systems. Individually, the vents aren't that old. But the sulfur-metabolizing microbes that form the foundations of those communities, especially the archaeans, just might be extremely ancient.

There were vent environments on Earth long before there were any habitable zones elsewhere.


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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: GregLee1]
      #6289455 - 01/03/14 11:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:


... BUT, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect it to be constructed of the same mix of carbon-hydrogen-oxygen-phosphorus-sulfur compounds that familiar life does, simply because these elements are abundant throughout the universe, and they combine and behave in ways that allow life to proceed.



But
Quote:

It is easy to conceive of chemical reactions that might support life involving noncarbon compounds, occurring in solvents other than water, or involving oxidation-reduction reactions without dioxygen.




according to The Limits of Organic Life in Planetary Systems, p. 18.




Those reactions may be easy to conceive of, but they would of necessity be far less ubiquitous than the carbon-based ones. The circumstances in which they could occur are just not as common, or available over as broad a range, or involve the elemental abundances as do the carbon-hydrogen-oxygen reactions that we see already happening.


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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: maugi88]
      #6289473 - 01/03/14 11:52 AM

Some days, Donald Rumsfeld liked to philosophy and he said: 'there is stuff that you know you don't know, and stuff that you don't know you don't know', same here.
Forget the later, the point is that with what we already know about Carbon-based Life in water, we can draw conclusions and make predictions.

And the prediction is that, as the sample size of Earth-like exoplanets, observable by current or near future telescopes, will grow big enough, we MUST observe some occurrences of Life, as we know it, in that sample, otherwise there is something wrong in our concept of 'Life'.
I was watching a Youtube video of Lawrence Krauss, a cosmologist and when he was asked if he thought the Universe was designed, his answer was: 'absolutely not, there is not a single evidence for that'.
In that case, Life is a thermodynamic process that can and must occur, otherwise it is not 'that'. Furthermore, if we add Darwinism as a scientific law, 'Intelligence' must arise as well when the sample is big enough.
Negatives (absence of detectable signs of life) , which may or may not be false negative, will inevitably occur, but as the sample size grows, the chance of repetitive negative decreases exponentially fast to zero.
When one throw a dice 10 times, the chances of 10 consecutives heads or tiles are already as small as 1/1024, Occam's razor demands that it would be more appropriate to question the dice than to accept the result as unbiased.


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GregLee1
professor emeritus


Reged: 07/21/13

Loc: Waimanalo, HI
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Muffin Research]
      #6289494 - 01/03/14 12:01 PM

Quote:


It's an agreed upon opinion / consensus.
It might be false-consensus effect.
Although I'm pretty sure the person claiming the experience without this 'irrefutable proof' thing or without the rest of us being 'alien probed' is going to have hard time not being regarded as the fruitcake.




The President of the US is always mostly liquid water. So part of the meaning of "president" is "watery". That's the type of argument you're making. Even if you're right that proponents of non-consensual facts are always sent to the looney bin, that doesn't make "consensual" part of the meaning of "fact".

I gave my best idea about the meaning of "fact" in the other thread, and "consensual" played no role, so evidently I am not part of the supposed consensus.


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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: dickbill]
      #6289509 - 01/03/14 12:07 PM

I'm as Darwinian as they come, but I'm not quite so sanguine about the inevitability of evolved intelligence. Not that it can't happen, obviously it has, but evolution is such a contingent process, and so dependent upon what has already gone before, that it's just not possible to predict the circumstances and likelihoods of intelligence arising multiple times. It did happen at least three times on Earth -- maybe four, if you count canines. Cetaceans, apes, and elephants. OK, five if you count ravens and crows. Advanced tool use, though, happened only once so far.

But these are all advanced vertebrates, and even as a class, there is no predictable likelihood of something similar arising elsewhere. Metazoan life itself -- the eucaryotic cell, even, could be a very rare occurance.

I've argued in the past against Ward and Brownlee's Rare Earth hypothesis, but although I disagree with many aspect of their reasoning, I still think their conclusion was probably correct (just for the wrong reasons) -- that while bacteria/archea levels of life might be reasonably common elsewhere, the chances of those developing the extreme complexity and tissue specializations we have experienced on Earth are probably due to rare chances that are not likely to be repeated often.

I could be wrong and I'd like to be wrong, and nothing would make me happier (or maybe more frightened) than to be proven wrong in my lifetime, but right now I think our best bet in the search for life elsewhere is to look for microbes, not Vulcans.


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GregLee1
professor emeritus


Reged: 07/21/13

Loc: Waimanalo, HI
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: maugi88]
      #6289511 - 01/03/14 12:08 PM

Quote:

Then Greg completely insulted me so I let him know it bothered me.



Well, if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black. It was implied that the question I had asked was unclear because evidently I didn't understand the meaning of "irrefutable".


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PeterR280
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 05/27/13

Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: GregLee1]
      #6289548 - 01/03/14 12:24 PM

Dave

Do you find the evolution of single cell organisms to multi-cell to be a more difficult process than DNA originating from the environmental chemicals when the Earth was young?


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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: PeterR280]
      #6289608 - 01/03/14 12:49 PM

I couldn't begin to say. I don't know if DNA was an early or late arrival during the OOL process, or whether it was an accidental addition or a necessity for further development. I'm probably more curious about the role of DNA as a basis for life than any other aspect of it. Part of me expects extraterrestrial life not to use DNA at all, part of me can't see any way around it.

I don't know if DNA is the key to the whole shebang, or simply a local side trip.


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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: llanitedave]
      #6289616 - 01/03/14 12:53 PM

You're right, Intelligence must be a smaller subset of Life, perhaps much smaller, perhaps not. In the worst case scenario, if it takes lots of exoplanets 'alive' to have one intelligent, there may not be enough in our entire galaxy to have more than one, in that case it is probably outside our observation capabilities as I assume we could observe exoplanets in a radius of a few thousand lightyears but no more.
That put extragalactic earth-like exoplanets out of range of our direct telescope observation. But I would be happy just with one or few evidence of bacterial life in the neighbourhood.

On the other hand, if Evolution responds to a process of information processing in an organism, at some point the amount of information is too big to be entirely hard-coded in DNA, RNAS or similar, and that is a strong incentive for an information-gathering dedicated organ, aka a brain. And that must be true anywhere, so as the amount of information to process continues to grow, the brain cannot stay small. If consciousness is a side effect of that growth, it will inevitably appear soon or later.
You're right to mention that big brains are mostly associated with mammals, but the late bipedal dinosaurs who lived in Antarctica may not have been that far from it.


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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: PeterR280]
      #6289643 - 01/03/14 01:06 PM

Quote:

Dave

Do you find the evolution of single cell organisms to multi-cell to be a more difficult process than DNA originating from the environmental chemicals when the Earth was young?




Part of the advances in prebiotic chemistry is that there must have been lots of pre-DNA analogs to store information. In addition to the postulated RNA world, Wikipedia talks about a Lipid-world and different sort of nucleic acid/protein/sugar hybrids molecules. So in no ways DNA must have originated directly from the young Earth free chemicals. The first 'DNAs' must have been a zoo of different nucleotides under different forms, a big mess.


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maugi88
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 08/25/13

Loc: SE MN
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: GregLee1]
      #6289645 - 01/03/14 01:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Then Greg completely insulted me so I let him know it bothered me.



Well, if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black. It was implied that the question I had asked was unclear because evidently I didn't understand the meaning of "irrefutable".




Greg,
I didn't even see your post with the word irrefutable. I was responding to Daves post just before mine. I simply asked what, in the realm of extraterrestrial life, would be irrefutable proof. I see looking back that dave was referencing a post referencing you, I did not notice that at the time. You then quoted me and asked if I needed the definition. Then condescendingly and arrogantly went on your rant. My post was in response to Daves not yours but you sure made yours about me. Go back to post 4 on page 28 and read it if you don't believe me I just read the word irrefutable and responded to that. Then read post 5 (yours) and see how you would like it. My statement was inn response to daves not yours.

I hope now you understand that I was not saying you didn't know the explanation of irrefutable, but what would be considered irrefutable. I may not have "all that fancy college book learnin" but I am not an idiot.

I think this may have been a misunderstanding and have the hope that things can be civil between us.

Edited by maugi88 (01/03/14 01:35 PM)


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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: llanitedave]
      #6289685 - 01/03/14 01:26 PM

Quote:

I think our best bet in the search for life elsewhere is to look for microbes, not Vulcans.




100% agree, but you know human curiosity. Imagine an exoplanet is discovered in 20 years and shows oxygen in its atmosphere, and maybe some colorful patches on the surface, what are the chances we are not going to look for Vulcans?
If what it takes to find out costs $10 trillions, so be it, we'll ask the fed' to print the money.


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Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: dickbill]
      #6289696 - 01/03/14 01:33 PM

The idea has been floated here…I forget who, probably many of us, possibly Dave…the idea has been floated that it is much more likely to have DNA develop in different places in the universe than for intelligence to have developed.

What if the development of intelligence is a tool/strategy used by DNA to help gets it (the DNA) passed along and developed?

Otto


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maugi88
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 08/25/13

Loc: SE MN
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #6289712 - 01/03/14 01:43 PM

As if DNA has the ability of cognitive thought? Or just a part of DNA being DNA evolution for lack of a better term?

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dickbill
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/30/08

Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #6289718 - 01/03/14 01:46 PM

Quote:

The idea has been floated here…I forget who, probably many of us, possibly Dave…the idea has been floated that it is much more likely to have DNA develop in different places in the universe than for intelligence to have developed.

What if the development of intelligence is a tool/strategy used by DNA to help gets it (the DNA) passed along and developed?

Otto




Sure it is, that's the selfish gene theory, where the gene codes for a brain.


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