deSitter
Still in Old School
Reged: 12/09/04
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New hot fusion device
#5433049 - 09/21/12 04:11 PM
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Magnetic linear inertial fusion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetized_Liner_Inertial_Fusion
http://beforeitsnews.com/energy/2012/09/sandia-lab-releases-info-on-a-new-type-of-fusion-device-2444152.html
This might work. Toroidal fusion will never work, because the main failure mode is destruction of the apparatus when the plasma touches the container wall. Here, the topology is linear and the containment parts are replaceable.
-drl
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Neutrino?
sage
Reged: 12/14/09
Loc: Wasatch
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Re: New hot fusion device
[Re: deSitter]
#5433109 - 09/21/12 04:48 PM
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That's how easily you dismiss toroidal fusion? A plane in the air with a broken wing doesn't fly, thus its main failure mode is destruction of the apparatus. I guess that's why we don't fly around in large hunks of metal.
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deSitter
Still in Old School
Reged: 12/09/04
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Re: New hot fusion device
[Re: Neutrino?]
#5433286 - 09/21/12 07:09 PM
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Let's make a better analogy. If every engine failure led to loss of the aircraft, no one would be flying.
When the tokomak was conceived, people were much more optimistic that turbulence combined with magnetohydrodynamics could be tamed. If they had known what they were in for, they would stopped then and there.
-drl
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Otto Piechowski
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/20/05
Loc: Lexington, KY
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Re: New hot fusion device
[Re: deSitter]
#5433386 - 09/21/12 08:12 PM
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drl
What is the current status of fusion reactors? I mean, what successes are the having? For example, I seem to have read somewhere that they have reached break even on energy production. What seemingly insurmountable problems do they seem to be exhibiting?
Otto
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deSitter
Still in Old School
Reged: 12/09/04
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Re: New hot fusion device
[Re: Otto Piechowski]
#5433438 - 09/21/12 08:47 PM
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Hot fusion requires enormous kinetic energy (energy of motion) of the nuclei to be fused. That means extremely high temperatures. The base model of a fusion reactor is called a "tokomak" and was pioneered in Russia. This has a thin plasma of ions meant for fusion, confined by an extremely strong magnetic field to a ring-shaped region that itself is enclosed by an evacuated donut. This evacuated donut is the heart of the fusion reactor. The ions are in theory kept centralized in the ring by confinement through an intense rotating magnetic field. Producing this field is a miracle of engineering, but it is relatively easy compared to predicting the flow of the ion fuel inside the donut. Unfortunately, the equations governing all this are not only highly non-linear, they are fiendishly complicated in their own right. It is impossible to make accurate calculations of the trajectories of single particles, much less an immensely hot extremely energetic gas of them. Instabilities in the flow of ions around the donut invariably set up, and break the magnetic confinement. When that happens, the ionized and extremely hot fuel gas contacts the containment vessel wall and pokes a hole in it. Months of costly repairs ensue.
Essentially all the money spent of this sort of reactor has been wasted. This was abundantly clear as long ago as the early 80s. It was often stated that in trade for the countless billions spent on this research, about 1/2 second of operational time has been accumulated.
-drl
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Otto Piechowski
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/20/05
Loc: Lexington, KY
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Re: New hot fusion device
[Re: deSitter]
#5433447 - 09/21/12 08:56 PM
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The central problem seems to be, you are saying "predicting the flow of the ion fuel inside the donut." Is this "unpredictability" a quantum thing? unpredictable like quantum stuff is unpredicatible (i.e. only using quantum stuff as a metaphor)...or is it a computing problem, which may be solved at some point in the future if computing continues to get better?
If the answers are simply, no, not a good metaphor, and no, just let me know that. But, of course, I enjoy when you walk me through the physics.
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Shadowalker
Apocaloptimist
Reged: 11/23/04
Loc: Bay Saint Louis, Mississippi, ...
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Re: New hot fusion device
[Re: deSitter]
#5433448 - 09/21/12 08:57 PM
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I hear a practical fusion reactor is about 20 years away. Heard that in 1972.
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deSitter
Still in Old School
Reged: 12/09/04
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Re: New hot fusion device
[Re: Otto Piechowski]
#5433454 - 09/21/12 09:01 PM
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Quote:
The central problem seems to be, you are saying "predicting the flow of the ion fuel inside the donut." Is this "unpredictability" a quantum thing? unpredictable like quantum stuff is unpredicatible (i.e. only using quantum stuff as a metaphor)...or is it a computing problem, which may be solved at some point in the future if computing continues to get better?
If the answers are simply, no, not a good metaphor, and no, just let me know that. But, of course, I enjoy when you walk me through the physics.
No, it is a consequence of non-linear dynamics. There is no accurate model of turbulence even for benign non-magnetic non-electric 70 degree air at sea level, much less an ionized plasma at tens of millions of degrees.
-drl
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Otto Piechowski
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/20/05
Loc: Lexington, KY
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Re: New hot fusion device
[Re: deSitter]
#5433464 - 09/21/12 09:07 PM
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non-linear dynamics.....the chaos theory/mandelbrot set stuff?
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deSitter
Still in Old School
Reged: 12/09/04
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Re: New hot fusion device
[Re: Otto Piechowski]
#5433469 - 09/21/12 09:12 PM
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No, just turbulent flow, immensely complicated by magnetism.
-drl
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Otto Piechowski
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/20/05
Loc: Lexington, KY
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Re: New hot fusion device
[Re: deSitter]
#5433483 - 09/21/12 09:22 PM
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This turbulence, complicated by magnetism, cannot be predicted?
Is the flow of protons or whatever it is they accelerate at cern, manipulated by magnetism....the turbulence and magnetism (gauss?) child's play by comparison?
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deSitter
Still in Old School
Reged: 12/09/04
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Re: New hot fusion device
[Re: Otto Piechowski]
#5433495 - 09/21/12 09:32 PM
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No. Non-linear equations must be solved on a case-by-case basis. This makes it nearly impossible to make accurate computer models of such systems. Computer models are only of much value when the problem being modeled can be broken down into many sub-problems, the solutions to which may be aggregated. That is not possible with non-linear systems.
There is a million dollar prize waiting for the person who demonstrates, not an actual solution, but just that a smooth solution even exists, to the Navier-Stokes equations that govern the flow of water in your plumbing - well, in your house's plumbing. Oh, they also govern the flight of airplanes. It's amazing what can be accomplished in the face of abject ignorance!
http://www.claymath.org/millennium/Navier-Stokes_Equations/
-drl
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Shadowalker
Apocaloptimist
Reged: 11/23/04
Loc: Bay Saint Louis, Mississippi, ...
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Re: New hot fusion device
[Re: Otto Piechowski]
#5433496 - 09/21/12 09:32 PM
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It's a fluid mechanics problem. The equations that govern simple laminar flow are complicated enough. Add in turbulence, compressibility, insanely high temperatures and pressures and you end up with a witch's brew of higher order differential equations that defy solution.
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Otto Piechowski
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/20/05
Loc: Lexington, KY
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Re: New hot fusion device
[Re: Shadowalker]
#5433513 - 09/21/12 09:47 PM
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Last question drl, Tom,
The people pursuing fusion reactors and fusion reactor energy containment...assuming they too are well educated and experienced...why do they continue pursuing these problems which seem insurmountable?
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Neutrino?
sage
Reged: 12/14/09
Loc: Wasatch
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Re: New hot fusion device
[Re: deSitter]
#5433539 - 09/21/12 10:15 PM
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Let's make a better analogy. If every engine failure led to loss of the aircraft, no one would be flying.
When the tokomak was conceived, people were much more optimistic that turbulence combined with magnetohydrodynamics could be tamed. If they had known what they were in for, they would stopped then and there.
-drl
How about if a failure occurs, it's down to coin toss if you live or die? Want to go for a ride in my Bonanza?
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deSitter
Still in Old School
Reged: 12/09/04
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Re: New hot fusion device
[Re: Neutrino?]
#5433570 - 09/21/12 10:38 PM
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NO!
-drl
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deSitter
Still in Old School
Reged: 12/09/04
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Re: New hot fusion device
[Re: Otto Piechowski]
#5433571 - 09/21/12 10:38 PM
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Last question drl, Tom,
The people pursuing fusion reactors and fusion reactor energy containment...assuming they too are well educated and experienced...why do they continue pursuing these problems which seem insurmountable?
No Buck Rogers, no bucks!
-drl
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deSitter
Still in Old School
Reged: 12/09/04
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Re: New hot fusion device
[Re: deSitter]
#5433577 - 09/21/12 10:42 PM
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Sorry. I think people just get it in their minds that GD-it, I'm gonna lick this. I've spent 20 or 30 years on this and I'm not quitting! Of course it helps when there is a river of cash into which one might regularly dip his soft funding toe.
-drl
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Otto Piechowski
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 09/20/05
Loc: Lexington, KY
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Re: New hot fusion device
[Re: deSitter]
#5433652 - 09/21/12 11:30 PM
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As you (all) know I am not a scientist of any sort, much less a research scientist. I can't imagine how painful, emotionally, it must be to spend 10 or 20 years or more of one's life pursuing a dream...a good dream...and then have to admit it isn't going to happen. I think for example of persons who, let's say, were directed to planetary exploration by a thesis director in college, and then got attached to JPL and attached to just one probe being sent to study Mars or Jupiter or whatever...and then, the probe crashes. I can't...I don't want to think what that is like, especially since, the life of scientific research is just not very warm to snuggle one's life up against, figuratively speaking, and then that "warmth"/that distraction/that addiction/that devotion is gone and there is nothing but ash.
But, perhaps I'm visualizing it wrong. Perhaps a really good scientist is one who understands it to be a job and compartmentalizes that job into one aspect, important aspect, but one aspect of her/his life...and understands that its value can reside as much in meaningful failure and what that tells us; and of course, the colleagues and students touched and guided along the way.
Yes, I can imagine a person really getting attached to a project as long as the hope and the cash flow.
You see...the thing about a divergent/phenomenological thinker like myself is sometimes I can think/write/talk and then the insight comes....
....it just struck me; somebody has to be fronting the cash for this hot fusion research. Assuming those people fronting the cash are smart enough to know when research isn't going anywhere.....why are they still pumping the cash? Even the Navy knew to discontinue the 600 foot radio telescope in West Virginia, even though they had dumped millions into it, once they realized that satellites could do what they needed better.
Otto
Edited by Otto Piechowski (09/21/12 11:33 PM)
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Shadowalker
Apocaloptimist
Reged: 11/23/04
Loc: Bay Saint Louis, Mississippi, ...
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Re: New hot fusion device
[Re: Otto Piechowski]
#5433669 - 09/21/12 11:41 PM
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Hey, scientists are people too! Of course they get frustrated. A crashed space probe is devastating.
We need to remember that it's possible to learn as much from failure as from success. Obviously not the same stuff 
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