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shawnhar
Post Laureate
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Reged: 06/25/10

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: origin of life new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5814896 - 04/22/13 09:39 AM

Trying to say that things are pre-determined OR we have free will seems rather silly to me.
Free will, will always be pre-determined (i.e. limited) by the number of options available.
If I throw you off a cliff, you can't free will yourself into having wings. Your short term future is almost certainly set in stone, not a lot of variable will affect the final outcome.
If I offer you ice cream, you can't say it was destiny that you ate vanilla, that's the only option you had. If I had vanilla and chocolate, you can't say it was pre-determined you would eat one or the other...or can you?
Given enough data, we might be able to determine that you are allergic to vanilla and are therefore destined to eat the other, but not really because there are a billion OTHER options besides actually eating the ice cream. You can throw it, drop it, say "no thanks", etc... you got options, unlike the journey to the bottom of the cliff.


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scopethis
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/30/08

Loc: Kingman, Ks
Re: origin of life new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5815715 - 04/22/13 05:06 PM

does "something" pre-determine if one survives or dies from the fall off the cliff?

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Pess
(Title)
*****

Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: origin of life new [Re: scopethis]
      #5815742 - 04/22/13 05:19 PM

I love it when I argue with people about their fates being 'predetermined'.

Someone once said that if you knew the precise location and energy level of each particle in the Universe, you could theoretically, plot the entire future of each particle from Big Bang to Big Death....

Pesse (Then Heisenberg became uncertain and made it all mute.) Mist

Edited by Pess (04/22/13 05:20 PM)


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Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: origin of life new [Re: scopethis]
      #5815767 - 04/22/13 05:29 PM

that would be gravity.

or more generally Physics.


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Mister T
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/01/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: origin of life new [Re: Pess]
      #5815772 - 04/22/13 05:29 PM

Only if you knew the formulas too!!

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wolfman_4_ever
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 07/15/11

Loc: El Segundo, Ca, So. Cal
Re: origin of life new [Re: Mister T]
      #5816082 - 04/22/13 06:41 PM

who are we to discuss the origins of life, free will, fates, etc when we can't even communicate with other species on our planet? This is just a for all we know discussion and what we have been told discussion.

Roaches will survive us all and become the dominant species on the planet..Free will is nothing when there is a dominant species on a planet like the human infestation.


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minos
member


Reged: 10/17/12

Re: origin of life new [Re: wolfman_4_ever]
      #5830074 - 04/29/13 12:33 PM

Obviously there are millions of opinions, but there is only one truth.Truth is by definition true!!In addition, facts are by definition, also true, so normally they agree with truth and if we interpret them correctly, then we will get to the truth.But truth is higher than facts, because facts, eventhough they are true, they must be interpreted correctly if we want to get any meaning by them.
Our aim is truth! To do this we must analyze a huge set of facts and see if they agree with our existing theories that are candidates for being the truth.But, to my opinion, here lies the hoax.
A fact must be a fact!The fact that we only know the works of Copernicus, Kepler, Brahe, Galileo etc, doesn't mean that they were the only scientific works of that times!Between them, there were tons of scientific work, observations, facts that didn't survive to us because they didn't work!The same thing happens today in my opinion to my discipline,medicine.Reading medical textbooks of 1970's(40 years old) you can realize that actually we had exactly the same actual weapons we have today in really improving disease outcomes(salines, antibiotics, transfusions, oxygen etc).The cases in which somebody that at the 70's would have died, but today ,thanks to improvements in medicine , will survive, are very limited, if any(even though i read in the mass media press for a different novel cure for cancer three times every week).And this happens contrary to the humongous amount of biomedical scientific papers created everyday.This points out that something is wrong with the interpretation of all these facts.Perhaps they are "approximately" facts because we use statistics to justify our claims.Truth works everytime, not most of the times.
So facts are important, but also theories are also essential or else the facts will lead us toward dead ends and be our blind driver to nowhere.
As for if we can ever get to the truth, my opinin is that if truth is out there exposed, then someday we will reach it.Of course in some areas we can learn the truth more easily than others, and our difficulties arise mainly because we are a part inside the system, and our perspective is not always totally the real objective one!And this refers to subjects such as existence, life, human brain, purpose, free will etc)But with the right assumptions, truth can even be reached there as well.
Finally, regarding the theories about primordial soups, my opinion is that organic macromolecules are not legos or scrubble toys to put basic compounds next to one another to build complicating molecules in many areas of earth at the same time, and make them react with each other correctly so as life to be created.It makes more sense to assume that the creation of macromolecules is the logical result of the chemical reactions of life in the long term.


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minos
member


Reged: 10/17/12

Re: origin of life new [Re: minos]
      #5830112 - 04/29/13 12:50 PM

And to those believers arguing against scientific explanations for natural phenomena such as how life works, i can only say that history showed that it is better to argue against god than trying to defend him superstituously in the wrong basis!Remember how much was christianity hurt in the case of Galileo!Even today, the bleeding hasn't stopped yet...

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moynihan
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 07/22/03

Loc: Lake Michigan Watershed
Re: origin of life new [Re: minos]
      #5830121 - 04/29/13 12:53 PM

"Nothing unreal exists"

Kiri-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics



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scopethis
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/30/08

Loc: Kingman, Ks
Re: origin of life new [Re: moynihan]
      #5833962 - 05/01/13 09:51 AM

what "exist" is only determined by one senses...

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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
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Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: origin of life new [Re: scopethis]
      #5834077 - 05/01/13 10:53 AM

Viruses don't exist?

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Pess
(Title)
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Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: origin of life new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5834143 - 05/01/13 11:30 AM

The Universe is what it is.

The Universe is many different things to many different people because each Universe is merely a holographic representation based on sensory information--which can vary from organism to organism.

Pesse (Schizophrenics build sand castles in the sky while psychotics live in them) Mist


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Qwickdraw
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 03/03/12

Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Re: origin of life new [Re: minos]
      #5834310 - 05/01/13 12:44 PM

Quote:

And to those believers arguing against scientific explanations for natural phenomena such as how life works, i can only say that history showed that it is better to argue against god than trying to defend him superstituously




First, who's history are you referring to? Second, define "better" better in the sense of not being persecuted? My beliefs make it clear that I am going to be persecuted for them and so it only serves to confirm my faith when I am. There are plenty of examples in religious text that claim opposite of you. I guess if you want to pick out selective example or two of this have at it but the onus would be on you to prove those the norm.


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shawnhar
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Reged: 06/25/10

Loc: Knoxville, TN
Re: origin of life new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #5834372 - 05/01/13 01:13 PM

Quote:

My beliefs make it clear that I am going to be persecuted for them and so it only serves to confirm my faith when I am.



That is what is called a postive feedback loop, and it's bad.


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Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: origin of life new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #5834540 - 05/01/13 02:29 PM

Quickdraw,

I am one of those who is comfortable with the inclusion of philosophical and theological speculations within a scientific context such as this. CN, and this forum in particular, sometimes censors philosophical and theological discussion. And that may happen here. Until that does happen, I would like to hear/read your ideas.

What are your thoughts, beliefs, feelings about this topic of The Origin of Life?

Otto

Edited by Otto Piechowski (05/01/13 02:32 PM)


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moynihan
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 07/22/03

Loc: Lake Michigan Watershed
Re: origin of life new [Re: Pess]
      #5834576 - 05/01/13 02:49 PM

Quote:

Schizophrenics build sand castles in the sky while psychotics live in them) Mist




"The neurotic has problems, the psychotic has solutions. Thomas S. Szasz


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moynihan
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 07/22/03

Loc: Lake Michigan Watershed
Re: origin of life new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5834588 - 05/01/13 02:55 PM

Quote:

I am one of those who is comfortable with the inclusion of philosophical and theological speculations within a scientific context such as this. CN, and this forum in particular, sometimes censors philosophical and theological discussion. And that may happen here. Until that does happen, I would like to hear/read your ideas.

What are your thoughts, beliefs, feelings about this topic of The Origin of Life?

Otto






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Qwickdraw
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 03/03/12

Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Re: origin of life new [Re: shawnhar]
      #5834887 - 05/01/13 05:45 PM

Quote:

Quote:

My beliefs make it clear that I am going to be persecuted for them and so it only serves to confirm my faith when I am.



That is what is called a postive feedback loop, and it's bad.




But thank you for confirming my point in making your observation


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Qwickdraw
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 03/03/12

Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Re: origin of life new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5834935 - 05/01/13 06:12 PM

Quote:

Quickdraw,

I am one of those who is comfortable with the inclusion of philosophical and theological speculations within a scientific context such as this. CN, and this forum in particular, sometimes censors philosophical and theological discussion. And that may happen here. Until that does happen, I would like to hear/read your ideas.

What are your thoughts, beliefs, feelings about this topic of The Origin of Life?

Otto




Otto,

I know what you are talking about as far as the censoring of philosophical discussion is concerned here. I personally have had several posts deleted . What I find interesting is how obviously biased the censorship can be toward allowing condemnation of religious principles. For fear of the aforementioned I will attempt to answer your question.

I believe the origin of life on Earth is divine and can be attributed to an intelligent creator. Furthermore, I believe the Earth's attributes, orbital characteristics, solar characteristics, galactic position are far more rare and unique than we currently understand or believe. Possibly to the point it may be a one of a kind.
I see God as a logical necessity required to give pre-universe absolute nothingness contrast and definition. When asked who he was God said himself I Am that I Am which to me means he is because he has to logically be.


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ColoHank
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 06/07/07

Loc: western Colorado
Re: origin of life [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #5834949 - 05/01/13 06:18 PM

Quote:

There are plenty of examples in religious text that claim opposite of you.




It's obvious that someone knew all of the answers two thousand years ago, so let's ignore all of the scientific knowledge accumulated since then. Why can't we all just agree that lightning and thunder are generated when Thor swings his hammer and strikes his anvil?


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