Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums
Privacy Policy |
Please read our Terms
of Service | Signup and
Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu… uh, User
Elric82
super member
Reged: 09/25/11
Loc: Richmond, Kentucky
|
Re: Mirror Choice for 14-16" Dob Project
[Re: Mirzam]
#5458370 - 10/06/12 07:49 PM
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
Quote |
Quick Reply
|
|
|
Well, I sure didn't realize it was that simple of a math problem. I found a web site that made finding focal length way more complex than a simple multiplication problem. Thanks for clearing that up. So FL= aperture x focal ratio. I wish they wouldve just came out and said that. I was thinking of making one of these as my next scope for planetary observation. Bit I'm stil a "newbie". Not sure if they make a solid tube that big or where to find one, but I'm gonna sell my dirt bike too finance it if I can find the resources. I figure it'll be a year long project for when the weather is not so good.
|
Jeff Morgan
Post Laureate
   
Reged: 09/28/03
Loc: Prescott, AZ
|
Re: Mirror Choice for 14-16" Dob Project
[Re: brickbots]
#5458608 - 10/06/12 11:16 PM
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
Quote |
Quick Reply
|
|
|
FWIW ...
You certainly earn high marks for effort and homework. But it seems to me that you are being too much of a spreadsheet astronomer here, and trying to buy it "by the pound". Consider that producing a fine optic is almost as much art as science. It is not a commodity!
The thrill and satisfaction of quality is remembered long after the sting of high price. If you intend this to be a "lifetime" telescope take the pain now. There are certain opticians who maintain strong followings over time. The Fine Parabola club is not exclusive - you could grind a "0.95 Strehl" (whatever that is) mirror all by yourself. But if you prefer to buy vs. grind, I would stick with the more regarded names: Zambuto, Royce, Lockwood, Cowan. Forget the price for now. Aperture, length, and availability is what you need.
You could also watch the classifieds for older mirrors from other "regional" or "past" Masters of the Art - Alika Herring, Dick Wessling, Dan Joyce (and perhaps a dozen others whose names slip my mind at this moment). Research pays, and you seem inclined to it.
In terms of focal ratio we all have our preferences for different reasons. Personally, I have always favored the longer focal ratios at the cost of aperture. The reason is that a sphere is a very natural shape whereas the parabola is not and long mirrors are closer to spheres than shorter ones. The optician has to work (or force) the mirror to this shape, meaning that the overall smoothness probably will be less than the sphere. There is a measurement for this called Relative Transverse Error (RTA). It is a measure of smoothness of a surface (and the primary measure that Carl Zambuto uses). If you get a chance, check the back issues of Sky & Telescope circa February 1976 for more information on this (also known as the Milles-LaCroix measurement). In the words of my favorite visual observer (the late) Walter Scott Houston "Light that does not go into the image goes elsewhere to brighten the field. The result is a washed out image, and near the limit of visibility it may mean difference between seeing or not seeing the subject." - Deep Sky Wonders, January 1966. This is the essence of that elusive term "contrast".
This does not necessarily mean that a fast mirror can not perform as a slower one - a great optician can still get a great result on a fast mirror, it just takes more time (and money). You could probably do it yourself if you have a couple of hundred extra hours to spare making the mirror.
The best advice of all time comes (again) from Walter Scott Houston: “I had an even better view of the galaxy with the 12 inch Porter Turrent Telescope at Stellafane in Vermont. Its f/17 design is particularly free of scattered light that would otherwise reduce the contrast between the galaxy’s subtle features. Based on this, I occasionally tell people to design their optimum telescope by first determining the longest tube length they can manage and then the largest mirror that they can afford!” - Deep Sky Wonders, October 1988
|
brickbots
member
Reged: 10/02/10
Loc: Venice, ca
|
Re: Mirror Choice for 14-16" Dob Project
[Re: Dennis_S253]
#5459488 - 10/07/12 03:50 PM
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
Quote |
Quick Reply
|
|
|
Quote:
I just have to ask a question. I've always kinda wondered about this. Looking at the price of them mirrors, why wouldn't someone just buy a name brand already built dob? Are them mirrors really that much better than the ones that come in, say a meade light bridge? I would build a scope if I could "save" money. or is it just the thrill of building your own? Always wondered....
This is a good question, I cover my personal decision in some detail in these posts:
http://oneyearonescope.blogspot.com/2012/09/build-vs-buy-sum-of-parts.html
http://oneyearonescope.blogspot.com/2012/09/build-vs-buy-build-for-win.html
But basically, I decided to build vs. buy for a few reasons. First, was that I do think I will enjoy the process of putting together my telescope. I don't want to produce all the parts from scratch, but I wanted to have the opportunity to spec out every aspect and make all the price/value decisions along the way.
Second was that I think I can beat, or at least approach, the value of a mass produced telescope. In my blog posts I listed a lot of the scopes that would meet my requirements, and their pricing, and the LightBridge was a good contender. In fact, it's such a good value that some people actually buy the scopes to get the primary/secondary mirror and focuser to build into another scope!
From what I've read, and gathered from looking at the scope first hand, it'd require enough tweaking to increase the cost a bit, and it still would not be quite what I was looking for. Particularly, the focal length is too long to make my flat footed use a reality.
Third, I want something fairly portable, and the LightBridge is pretty large/heavy for it's aperture. I'm sure that I can put together something more portable using one of the kits from DobStuff or the like.
If I was not somewhat interested in the actual process of putting together the scope, I might have gone for something commercial, as there are some good values out there to be had. If you are interested in some of the scopes I checked out, and why I ultimately decided not to go with them, the two posts above cover it in some detail.
|
brickbots
member
Reged: 10/02/10
Loc: Venice, ca
|
Re: Mirror Choice for 14-16" Dob Project
[Re: careysub]
#5463147 - 10/10/12 12:01 AM
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
Quote |
Quick Reply
|
|
|
Quote:
If you go with a short focal length scope you will want to factor in the cost of a coma corrector also. For an F/4.5 scope the Astrotech/GSO coma corrector at $130-140 should be suitable (for which it is optimized), and may work well down to at least F/4. Faster than this the Paracorr Type I (available used) or Type II are preferable (on sale at $470 right now).
Thank you, that is a good reminder. I'm leaning more towards a 16" f/4 so a coma corrector is probably in the cards. The Paracorr is very well respected, but expensive. Do anyone have any experience with the Astrotech?
|
brickbots
member
Reged: 10/02/10
Loc: Venice, ca
|
Re: Mirror Choice for 14-16" Dob Project
[Re: careysub]
#5463152 - 10/10/12 12:05 AM
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
Quote |
Quick Reply
|
|
|
Quote:
There is a bit of a paradox inherent in "aperture fever".
Although there is truth to the statement that "aperture rules", it is also the case that small differences in light gathering cannot be distinguished by the eye, the threshold for visibility is something like 20% - you can just tell the difference in a side-by-side comparison. "Aperture rules" by creeping up in undetectable (or nearly so) steps.
....
A few more observations: * One of the best buys in a Zambuto is the 14.5" F/4.5 at $2620 ($15.87/sq in; just a tad higher than the absolute best buy 18" F/4.5 at $15.44/sq in), though this breaks your price ceiling; * Hubble Optics offers mirrors down to F/4 at least (maybe even shorter) in all sizes (http://www.hubbleoptics.com/products.html, there is a 15% surcharge for each 1/2 stop over their basic mirror). * You don't have Normand Fullum on your list, he has 14" F/4.5 for $2100 and a 16" F/3.8 for $2750. * Have you looked at Waite Research? He has changed his pricing model recently and I don't have comparative data handy yet but he should be in your price range.
*I decided this question by waiting for Hubble Optics to offer an 18" F/4 mirror on their eBay store for $1500, which I am sure is the largest mirror I will ever own.
Thank you for a lot of good suggestions and a bit of perspective on the difference between the various mirror sizes. The more I have thought of it over the past couple of days, the more I am leaning towards a 16" f/4. The 20+% difference between it and the 14.5 is something I might not notice, but it will be in my mind each time I look through the scope :-)
Since I am hoping this telescope will last me quite a while, I'm thinking I am going to spend a bit more and get the larger mirror, and probably go with a premium vendor. Swayze is looking good with the 16" f/4 at 2700 and some great reviews online.
|
brickbots
member
Reged: 10/02/10
Loc: Venice, ca
|
Re: Mirror Choice for 14-16" Dob Project
[Re: ausastronomer]
#5463160 - 10/10/12 12:14 AM
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
Quote |
Quick Reply
|
|
|
Quote:
What you are paying extra for is the comfort and re assurance that your mirror will be excellent. The mirrors that Zambuto has shipped that are worse than excellent can be counted on one hand from well over a thousand mirrors. Those couple of mirrors were still good but were happily replaced. Many other mirror makers are capable of making an excellent mirror, but they are just as capable of shipping something that isn't all that great, notwithstanding the test certificate data may say otherwise. In some cases these people will not hear of their mirror not being up to standard and you're are left with the cost of having the mirror refigurred by someone else. I have seen one case where the optician replaced a really bad mirror with a mirror that was barely much better than the first attempt. The owner is now stuck with the cost of refigguring a large mirror (over 22") or living with a mirror that is pretty mediocre. I have seen a number of mirrors from so called premium opticians that didnt even resemble a premium mirror. ….
On nights of excellent seeing you can certainly tell an excellent mirror apart from a good one. These nights aren't all that common but it's worth it when the air is good and knowing what you have doesn't get better.
It all comes back to getting what you pay for.
Cheers
Thank you! Your post gave me a lot to think about. Ultimately, I'm hoping to have this telescope for a long while and I don't want to be wondering if the mirror could have been better. To this end I'm aiming more at the larger/higher end mirrors. The Zambutu would be great, but Swayze and Lockwood seem to have good reputations as well and would save me almost enough to build an observatory as well :-)
I really appreciate all the great input I've received here! Clear Skies
|
johnnyha
Postmaster
   
Reged: 11/12/06
Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
|
Re: Mirror Choice for 14-16" Dob Project
[Re: brickbots]
#5463284 - 10/10/12 03:05 AM
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
Quote |
Quick Reply
|
|
|
I suggest Zambuto, I have a 14" f4.5 on order that was pushed back because Carl is retooling his plant and is going to do his own - well I promised I wouldn't tell - let's just say normally Spectrum does the coatings but some very expensive, cutting edge machines have made their way to Rainier, Washington.
|
careysub
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/18/11
Loc: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
|
Re: Mirror Choice for 14-16" Dob Project
[Re: brickbots]
#5463588 - 10/10/12 10:48 AM
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
Quote |
Quick Reply
|
|
|
Quote:
... I'm leaning more towards a 16" f/4 so a coma corrector is probably in the cards. The Paracorr is very well respected, but expensive. Do anyone have any experience with the Astrotech?
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3774044/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/all/vc/1
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3838304
It seems to be pretty good - certainly a vast improvement over no coma corrector.
A couple of suggestions about this - if you are building an F/4 then you should consider it a type of catadioptric telescope (a mirror/lens hybrid scope) and include the the coma corrector in the build. That is to say, consider the coma corrector to be a permanent part of the scope, and adjust the focal plane to focus with your EPs using the coma corrector when you are cutting your poles. Both Paracorrs and the Astro-Tech/GSO coma corrector (same design by Roger Ceragioli) require an extension of some sort (the Paracorr has its "tunable top") if mounted in a scope originally built for regular EP use.
Televue (with Starlight) offers a (very expensive) Feather Touch focuser (the Starlight SIPPS) that actually has the Paracorr II coma corrector lenses mounted in the focuser itself for this reason.
|
careysub
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/18/11
Loc: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
|
Re: Mirror Choice for 14-16" Dob Project
[Re: brickbots]
#5463638 - 10/10/12 11:13 AM
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
Quote |
Quick Reply
|
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
"Aperture rules" by creeping up in undetectable (or nearly so) steps.
The more I have thought of it over the past couple of days, the more I am leaning towards a 16" f/4. The 20+% difference between it and the 14.5 is something I might not notice, but it will be in my mind each time I look through the scope :-)
Aperture fever is all in the mind anyway. I followed the same reasoning you are when choosing an 18" over a 16". I am partial to DSO faint fuzzies, looking deep into the Universe, where that extra bit of light does the most good.
Quote:
Since I am hoping this telescope will last me quite a while, I'm thinking I am going to spend a bit more and get the larger mirror, and probably go with a premium vendor. Swayze is looking good with the 16" f/4 at 2700 and some great reviews online.
One option is to go with an economy mirror in the build (the option I chose), since mirrors are modular components that easily swapped for one with the same size and focal ratio. The mirror could be refigured later, or sold to finance a more expensive one (good astronomy components sell well, at a decent portion of their original price).
|
Photoner
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/06/06
|
Re: Mirror Choice for 14-16" Dob Project
[Re: careysub]
#5474711 - 10/17/12 09:28 AM
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
Quote |
Quick Reply
|
|
|
If you go with the ZOC 16" f/4, note that there is a 20% up-charge for going below f/4.5.
The f4 makes for a really nice eyepiece height and the ZOC is worry free regarding quality.
|
derangedhermit
sage
Reged: 10/07/09
Loc: D/FW, TX
|
Re: Mirror Choice for 14-16" Dob Project
[Re: Photoner]
#5476186 - 10/18/12 01:15 AM
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
Quote |
Quick Reply
|
|
|
I find it easier to step up or down a step or two and move a step stool than to adjust a chair and move it, or worse, try to observe bent over or on one knee - but I'm gettin old. I wish my scope's max ep height was a 12-18" higher (now 60" fl). I'm probably swimming upstream, but I think 16" f/5 would be nice.
|
brickbots
member
Reged: 10/02/10
Loc: Venice, ca
|
Re: Mirror Choice for 14-16" Dob Project
[Re: derangedhermit]
#5479768 - 10/20/12 12:23 AM
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
Quote |
Quick Reply
|
|
|
I've made my decision and put down a deposit on a 16" f/4 mirror from Terry Ostahowski Optics - http://www.ostahowskioptics.com/ for $2475. My research indicated he has a great reputation, and the price was very good. Originally my budget was $2500 and this worked out very well indeed. For a more verbose account of my decision making process, check my blog where I consider Ostahowski and some other interesting options not on my first list: http://oneyearonescope.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-design-primary-mirror-part-2.html
It was amazing how helpful and information every manufacturer I contacted was. I think we are all very luck to share a passion with so many fine people.
Ostahowski Optics was not on my original list, but I'm not surprised I missed some options. Of course, I found him through another discussion here on Cloudy Nights. Thank you so much to everyone who pitched in with advice and perspective. Now the waiting begins.....
Clear Skies!
|
ausastronomer
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 06/30/03
Loc: Kiama NSW (Australia)
|
Re: Mirror Choice for 14-16" Dob Project
[Re: brickbots]
#5479796 - 10/20/12 01:06 AM
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
Quote |
Quick Reply
|
|
|
Quote:
I've made my decision and put down a deposit on a 16" f/4 mirror from Terry Ostahowski Optics - http://www.ostahowskioptics.com/ for $2475. Clear Skies!
Good Luck
Cheers,
|
Víctor Martínez
sage
Reged: 02/05/07
Loc: Cádiz - Spain
|
Re: Mirror Choice for 14-16" Dob Project
[Re: brickbots]
#5479928 - 10/20/12 05:43 AM
|
Edit
|
Reply
|
Quote |
Quick Reply
|
|
|
Quote:
I've made my decision and put down a deposit on a 16" f/4 mirror from Terry Ostahowski Optics - http://www.ostahowskioptics.com/ for $2475. My research indicated he has a great reputation, and the price was very good. Originally my budget was $2500 and this worked out very well indeed. For a more verbose account of my decision making process, check my blog where I consider Ostahowski and some other interesting options not on my first list: http://oneyearonescope.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-design-primary-mirror-part-2.html
It was amazing how helpful and information every manufacturer I contacted was. I think we are all very luck to share a passion with so many fine people.
Ostahowski Optics was not on my original list, but I'm not surprised I missed some options. Of course, I found him through another discussion here on Cloudy Nights. Thank you so much to everyone who pitched in with advice and perspective. Now the waiting begins.....
Clear Skies!
I have a 16" f5 1.6" thick Ostahowski mirror with his 3.1" secondary, and I only can to say that has a superb performance. If I bought another mirror, choose one of Terry. You will be happy with your choice.
|
|
7 registered and 28 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: ausastronomer, richard7
Print Thread
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Thread views: 2064
|
|
|
|
|
|
|