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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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pbsastro
sage
*****

Reged: 03/21/07

Re: Explore Scientific 9mm 120° new [Re: Shneor]
      #5471740 - 10/15/12 03:03 PM

Quote:

A wider Ethos is not a great desire of mine; in any case, ES is coming out with a 25mm 100° for $600. I don't use a Paracorr or other coma correctors. My 13mm Ethos shows bloated stars near the edge (22" f/4), while ES' 9mm 120° has stars pinpoint at the edge. Jupiter at the edge has some lateral color (white), but the shape of the disk is correct and the bands are still quite distinct. And the real apparent field is more like 140°. Sure, I love the 4 Ethoi I have. But this eyepiece surpasses them in many respects. Do I wish it were less expensive? Of course. Do I wish it were lighter? Of course. Do I wish it was easier to make, so more of them could be available? Of course. But it's an exceptional eyepiece, and a real breakthrough in eyepiece design.




I have Ethos 17 and Ethos 3.7 and find them perfect to the edge, but I only use f/7 or longer scopes.
It is excellent that the ES9-120 is even better than the Ethos at f/4.
What I find surprising is that the ES works so well without Paracorr. It is amazing how it works so well in both scopes with coma and without coma. This sure needs further investigation on the reasons.


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Shneor
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/01/05

Loc: Northern California
Re: Explore Scientific 9mm 120° new [Re: pbsastro]
      #5472679 - 10/16/12 02:16 AM

Quote:


It is excellent that the ES9-120 is even better than the Ethos at f/4.
What I find surprising is that the ES works so well without Paracorr. It is amazing how it works so well in both scopes with coma and without coma. This sure needs further investigation on the reasons.



I agree; maybe then more manufacturers will make eyepieces like this one. I could also wish for, say, a 5 or 6 mm eyepiece like this. I don't think a longer focal length is feasible - it would be too heavy and require a 2.75" focuser. But there's no way I can see anyone taking this eyepiece apart.

Clears,


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dyslexic nam
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 01/28/08

Loc: PEI, Canada
Re: Explore Scientific 9mm 120° new [Re: Shneor]
      #5472869 - 10/16/12 08:27 AM

Quote:


I agree; maybe then more manufacturers will make eyepieces like this one...




When the first 120* clones appear (regardless of manufacturer), it will be interesting to see if these boards light up with the same kind of outcry that accompanied the introduction of the ES100 eyepieces.


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Mike B
Starstruck
*****

Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: Explore Scientific 9mm 120° new [Re: Shneor]
      #5473275 - 10/16/12 12:54 PM

Quote:

But there's no way I can see anyone taking this eyepiece apart.



Of course there is! Send it to BillP... he'll happily do the honors, i'm quite certain.


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Shneor
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/01/05

Loc: Northern California
Re: Explore Scientific 9mm 120° new [Re: Mike B]
      #5473426 - 10/16/12 02:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:

But there's no way I can see anyone taking this eyepiece apart.



Of course there is! Send it to BillP... he'll happily do the honors, i'm quite certain.




Will he be able to argon-purge it when he puts it back together and keep it waterproof?

Clears,


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Mike B
Starstruck
*****

Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: Explore Scientific 9mm 120° new [Re: Shneor]
      #5473463 - 10/16/12 03:26 PM

I'm not so sure... i think he might've switch to xenon recently.


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BillP
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 11/26/06

Loc: Vienna, VA
Re: Explore Scientific 9mm 120° new [Re: Shneor]
      #5473530 - 10/16/12 04:16 PM

Quote:

Will he be able to argon-purge it when he puts it back together and keep it waterproof?

Clears,




I will re-purge it with a special 78% Nitrogen 21% Oxygen and 1% proprietary rare-gas blend instead ... plus maybe a cat hair or two for good measure since she's always curious about what I am doing


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Mike B
Starstruck
*****

Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: Explore Scientific 9mm 120° new [Re: BillP]
      #5473739 - 10/16/12 06:18 PM

I stand corrected. Unless 'Xenon' is the name of your cat.


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Shneor
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/01/05

Loc: Northern California
Re: Explore Scientific 9mm 120° new [Re: BillP]
      #5475216 - 10/17/12 02:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Will he be able to argon-purge it when he puts it back together and keep it waterproof?

Clears,




I will re-purge it with a special 78% Nitrogen 21% Oxygen and 1% proprietary rare-gas blend instead ... plus maybe a cat hair or two for good measure since she's always curious about what I am doing



Sorry, that mixture is not inert...maybe someone else will go for it...or maybe at least x-ray one. Just not mine.

Clears,


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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Explore Scientific 9mm 120° new [Re: Shneor]
      #5475310 - 10/17/12 03:29 PM

It's the cat hair that makes it special....

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MitchAlsup
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 08/31/09

Re: Explore Scientific 9mm 120° new [Re: MitchAlsup]
      #5475918 - 10/17/12 09:34 PM Attachment (39 downloads)

Quote:

Ok, Serial number #17 is now in my posession.

I can verify the circular blue ring is present. I can also verify that the circular blue ring is not visible through the exit pupil.




I had 1.3 nights to use this EP. The first night had pretty good skies for Ft. Davis Texas, not as good as I have seen (like last year) but pretty good. The second night was a short session the was ruined by clouds early in the night. The other 2 nights it remained cloudy, so this observation report will remain sketchy.

The Ep is very sharp, both on axis and as far off axis as I can actually see.

The width of the FoV has a strange effect. Observers in the desert with nearly 180 degrees of sky and little obscuration of the horizon have a distortion effect. This effect is caused by both extinction and by refraction (through the curved atmosphere). The effects cause the stars on the very horizon not to look as if the sky were a semicircle but that of a bowl with a flattened edge. The sky "looks" flatter at the horizon than at zenith (or basically anything over 30 degrees.)

The 9ES120 has this same effect. Stars remain sharp with nary pin cushion nor barrel distortion easily visible. However, as one looks towards the ege fo the field, it looks to be farther away (like the horizon above) than it should be. Note carefully: this is not an effect associated with aberations in the EP (distortion being one of these).

It is a very comfortable 9mm EP to pan around the sky searching for stuff--although lower powers are more forgiving due to their wider FoVs. Comfortable in that the exit pupil is high enough off the eye lens that you don't feel constrained (like many EPs in this focal length). The flat undistorted FoV is nice to watch as one pans around--and I am generally one who does get sea sick when using EPs with significant pincushion or barrel distortions.

This report remains sketchy due to the atmospheric conditions and the short amount of observing time had with this EP in the focuser. The telsecope used was a 20" homemade DOB used with a Paracorr-1.

I did spend some time on NGC7331 and Stephan's Quintet nearby with the 9ES120. The visible FoV is about as wide as my 13E, the stars are sharp (as the sky permitted seeing.) I also compared this to my original T1 9mm Nagler. The coatings and light throughput of the 9ES120 was at least on par with the 9NT1 the scatter from the coatings less (20 years less cleaning, more modern coatings,...) and usefully more eye relief.

Anyway, that is my story and I'm sticking to it. Sorry for the brevity, but the skies just did not deliver an ability to test it more strenuously.

I did notice that the 9ES120 wants the Paracorr tunable top to be set at 5 whereas the 31NT5 and the 21E use position 1 and I have parfocalized my 13E to use position 1 also. The 9ES120 will get parfocalized similarly.

Picture included to scope out the monsters.


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Tamiji Homma
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 02/24/07

Loc: California, USA
Re: Explore Scientific 9mm 120° new [Re: MitchAlsup]
      #5476004 - 10/17/12 10:31 PM

Quote:

It is a very comfortable 9mm EP to pan around the sky searching for stuff--although lower powers are more forgiving due to their wider FoVs. Comfortable in that the exit pupil is high enough off the eye lens that you don't feel constrained (like many EPs in this focal length). The flat undistorted FoV is nice to watch as one pans around--and I am generally one who does get sea sick when using EPs with significant pincushion or barrel distortions.




Hi Mitch,

Have you observed any (relatively tight) double star across the field? As you noted, I also thought that ES9-120 had smaller rectangular distortion than I expected. So I thought that I should have noticed AMD but I didn't.

I need to reexamine but it did strike me that it had low AMD too unlike Nikon NAV SW. Nikon NAV SW shows visibly tighter double star at edge than on-axis.

I was expecting to see double star much tighter at edge than on axis with ES9-120 but I didn't.

So I was a little bit puzzled by it. I'll do pay attention to it next time.

Tammy


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Shneor
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/01/05

Loc: Northern California
Re: Explore Scientific 9mm 120° [Re: Tamiji Homma]
      #5476288 - 10/18/12 02:51 AM

Mitch, have you tried without the Paracorr? I suspect it's unnecessary; it is for me in my f/4 (as verified by other observers as well).

Incidentally, I tried in my 4" f/5 achromat - same effect, stars as sharp at the edge as they are in the center of the field.

Clears,


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MitchAlsup
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 08/31/09

Re: Explore Scientific 9mm 120° new [Re: Shneor]
      #5476779 - 10/18/12 11:32 AM

Quote:

Mitch, have you tried without the Paracorr? I suspect it's unnecessary; it is for me in my f/4 (as verified by other observers as well).




I colimated the scope (on Polaris) without the Paracorr but after colimation the Paracorr got stuck in. I can't really say I did any viewing other than right at Polaris while colimating.

I did notice that it is hard to find the center of an EP with a FoV this large. The only reasonable approximation I got was to pull my head from the exit pupil until it was far enough away I could see the EP in the focuser and polaris still in the exit pupil. This makes keeping Polaris in the FoV a lot easier, but placing it at the center of the FoV difficult.


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Shneor
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/01/05

Loc: Northern California
Re: Explore Scientific 9mm 120° new [Re: MitchAlsup]
      #5477191 - 10/18/12 03:09 PM

It's true, the field is so large it's not easy to find the center. I try to look directly into the eye lens (orthogonally).

According to a rough calculation, if the field were equal to that of the 13 Ethos, the apparent field would have to be just over 144°. When I tried to measure it using the Pleiades, I estimated that the apparent field was about 98% that of the 13 Ethos...or just over 141°. It bothers me that the eyepiece is marketed as 120° when the actual apparent field is so much larger - and I can't find any distortion across the field, just some lateral color for bright objects (planets) in the outer 15%. I haven't tried to look for doubles at the edge, however.

Does anyone know how many of these have actually reached users? From the count here, I just know of 4, one of which was defective (slick on the field lens).

Clears,


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MitchAlsup
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 08/31/09

Re: Explore Scientific 9mm 120° new [Re: Shneor]
      #5477990 - 10/18/12 11:37 PM

Quote:

According to a rough calculation, if the field were equal to that of the 13 Ethos, the apparent field would have to be just over 144°. When I tried to measure it using the Pleiades, I estimated that the apparent field was about 98% that of the 13 Ethos...or just over 141°. It bothers me that the eyepiece is marketed as 120° when the actual apparent field is so much larger - and I can't find any distortion across the field, just some lateral color for bright objects (planets) in the outer 15%. I haven't tried to look for doubles at the edge, however.




I suspect that the EP is wider than 120 degrees but less than 130 degrees, maybe less than 125 degrees. So marketing it as a 120 degree EP does not fall into the catagory of "pulling ones leg". however, it is quite wide.

I noticed no lateral color at field sizes less than 100 degrees (probably at 110 degrees) and a subtle bluing of stars near/beyond 120 degrees. I also noticed that the color was dependent on how my eye pupil was oriented with respect to the EP exit pupil.


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Scanning4Comets
Markus
*****

Reged: 12/26/04

Loc: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Re: Explore Scientific 9mm 120° new [Re: MitchAlsup]
      #5478125 - 10/19/12 01:17 AM Attachment (15 downloads)

Holy Moly! I am not one for heavy eyepieces at all, but trying the 9mm out would be well worth the admission price alone!

M-42 @ 133x in my scope would be a real treat with Orion Ultrablock or O-III filter on it! I would get about 59' field if it indeed was a 130 degree eyepiece! Even if it was 125 degrees, I would still get 56.4' field.

It'd also be nice to sweep around at that power without getting lost at times....if you did get "lost", it would be easier to get your field back, that's for sure! I plugged the EP into stellarium and the field is so huge looking that it takes up the whole page almost !!!

I may grab it once the price comes down in a few years.

Cheers,


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Shneor
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/01/05

Loc: Northern California
Re: Explore Scientific 9mm 120° new [Re: MitchAlsup]
      #5478185 - 10/19/12 02:15 AM

Quote:

Quote:

According to a rough calculation, if the field were equal to that of the 13 Ethos, the apparent field would have to be just over 144°. When I tried to measure it using the Pleiades, I estimated that the apparent field was about 98% that of the 13 Ethos...or just over 141°. It bothers me that the eyepiece is marketed as 120° when the actual apparent field is so much larger - and I can't find any distortion across the field, just some lateral color for bright objects (planets) in the outer 15%. I haven't tried to look for doubles at the edge, however.




I suspect that the EP is wider than 120 degrees but less than 130 degrees, maybe less than 125 degrees. So marketing it as a 120 degree EP does not fall into the catagory of "pulling ones leg". however, it is quite wide.

I noticed no lateral color at field sizes less than 100 degrees (probably at 110 degrees) and a subtle bluing of stars near/beyond 120 degrees. I also noticed that the color was dependent on how my eye pupil was oriented with respect to the EP exit pupil.




The arithmatic is simple - the only difference if the apparent field is identical to that of the Ethos - mathematically is 13/9=1.44444etc. times 100° degrees or 144.44°. (In other words, 13=9x, solving for x and multiplying by the apparent field of the Ethos). Tamiji measured 140° and I believe he is correct; that's the only way the true field of view of the 13 Ethos and the 9mm could be equal. I think the field is just a tad smallet than that of the 13mm Ethos.
Clears,


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Shneor
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/01/05

Loc: Northern California
Re: Explore Scientific 9mm 120° new [Re: Tamiji Homma]
      #5478194 - 10/19/12 02:27 AM

Quote:

Hi Shneor,

Thank you for your report. Viewing a whole field of view would need some practice (get used to it).

I also had to move my eye to see the edge at beginning. After a few sessions, I am able to view (sense) entire field effortlessly. I can't do that for terrestrial view.
It must be something to do with exit pupil size difference.

I'd love to try dense globular filling entire field in the eyepiece. It must be AWWW moment with big scope

Looking forward to hearing your observation with 22" f/4.

Tammy



I don't think there's a globular that would fill more than a fraction of the field in my 22" f/4; M22 took maybe a quarter of the field at most. For spectacular whole objects, M8 and M42 fill the bill; N253 did not stretch from one edge to the opposite; M51 will be nice (haven't observed it yet with this EP). But Abell galaxy clusters are magnificent. So was the Veil, even though you do have to pan along the nebulosity.

Clears,


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Cyclop_si
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 03/13/08

Loc: Slovenia
Re: Explore Scientific 9mm 120° new [Re: Shneor]
      #5478209 - 10/19/12 03:08 AM

Shneor, I am afraid you might be mixing AFOV with TFOV.

Declared 120° of ES 9mm eyepiece is AFOV. However when you are comparing this ES 9mm with TV Ethos 13mm, you are doing TFOV comparison. Due to different distortions, AFOV and TFOV can not be compared for different eyepieces.


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