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lighttrap
   
Reged: 02/06/04
Posts: 3833
Loc: cloudy, foggy, humid NC, US
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Quote:
After seveal years of reading Mike S' praise of the Superior E I am tempted also...
Folks, let me be perfectly blunt about these binoculars. They're not for everybody. I really, really like mine for most pursuits, both terrestrial and celestial. But, they do suffer some major drawbacks:
1. They're not waterproof. (Though I believe they're a good bit more water resistant than most non-wp optics.)
2. They are both the max, or even over the max power that many people can comfortably hold still.
3. They are not as easily tripod mounted as most binoculars. Though it's easy enough to mount them with a special additional cost adapter either through Nikon or via a handful of aftermarket or homemade solutions.
4. If they must be mounted, then they really aren't high power enough, or large enough to justify the expense.
5. They cost a mint.
6. They're hard to find locally to test, and in this case testing them for your own personal use prior to purchase, is practically mandatory.
The only reason that I wound up with a set of these is that I just stumbled upon an online dealer, (whom I'd had several good camera purchases with), who was just happening to be getting out of the retail binocular business at precisely the time that I decided that I wanted some SEs. In fact, I was initially torn between the 8x32s and the 12x50s. They'd already sold out of the 10x42s, that would, for most folks, make a more versitle, all around choice. It was one of those deals where I knew that I just had to act, and act quickly. In all honesty, I don't think I'd buy them at the current street price of $850. That's a lot of money. Now, having said all that, I'll add some reasons why they still might appeal to those for whom spending that kind of money on an optic isn't really an issue:
1. These are the brighest, clearest optics that I've yet seen. That's true of all 3 sizes in the SE line. The reason that Nikon doesn't offer the standard 8x42, 10x50 and 12x60 in this line is that their engineers have figured out how to get all the brightness from a smaller objective. Everybody that's ever looked through mine, (which would include dozens of bird club members as well as a few am. astro folks), have commented on the bright, clear view. Some of these folks are no strangers to Leica BNs and Swarovski ELs, etc.
2. That, coupled with some subtle but important erogonomic design improvements, means that this SE series is extremely handholdable for many people, including me. The comment that I usually get right after the exclamation about the brightness, is one of disbelief when they find out that they're 12x. Even little old ladies have found that they can hold these things, provided that they know how to hold themselves. But, there have been at least two Astromarters who sold off their sets, apparently because they couldn't hold them steady. So be warned.
3. The 12x50SEs represent the highest power, in the smallest, easiest to control package that I can actually use for both birding and astronomy.
4. I expect a lot out of my binoculars, and these have never failed to deliver, with one important exception: They don't focus as close as most birders require. That doesn't bother me because my interests lean more to waterbirds and raptors and other long distance viewing.
5. With that in mind, these actually can substitute for a very low power, small diameter spotting scope, but are no replacement for a good 30x scope.
6. Personally, having compared these in my hands to a few of the Cannon IS series, I prefer the brighter, better images of the Nikon SEs. *However* , that's highly subjective, and is irrelevent if you can't hold them still to begin with. (Something a lot of folks tend to gloss over is that the circuitry in the IS binoculars really does rob a bit of resolution. Even with it off, I haven't seen a set of IS bins that can really compete with top end glass from Nikon, Leica or Swarovski. But, again, that's a subjective interpretation, and there are legions of people who see things quite differently, apparently to include some highly respected optics critics. To me, the IS views always look a bit flat, and lack the 3D depth of field of really highend optics. But then, I've never looked through any IS bins other than Cannon. So I can't comment on Nikon or Fuji IS. )
These are NOT for everybody. They came into my life at a time when I was willing to pay the price that I could get them for. Weigh your own needs carefully. I would hate for anybody to drop that kind of money on them and then be disappointed.
Regards to all, Mike Swaim
-------------------- 18" Starsplitter II f/4.5
8" Hardin Dob f/6
C5 workhorse mini SCT f/10 or f/6.3
70mm TV Ranger dual purpose birding/astro
77mm Leica Televid APO
16x70 Fujinons on UA Deluxe Mt.
12x50 Nikon SE
8x30 Nikon E2s
and many others
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KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10163
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Mike,
I think it very thoughtful of you to have posted that.
I must say that after the little matter of around 35 years of looking through binoculars of many makes ,shapes and sizes , the Nikon 8 x 32 SE has been the one that impressed me the most in terms of presenting a " bright clear image" with a 4mm exit -pupil.
It really is an incredibly superbly performing little binocular for sure.
There are however , three binos with 6mm or 7mm exit pupils that have impressed me similarly.
One was a Leica 8 x 50 BN , the other a Swarovski 8 x 56 SLC and the third the one I bought -- Zeiss 7 x 42 B GA T.
All of these have minor features that in my opinion prevent them from being THE perfect hand-holdable binocular.
I have it from reliable sources that the very latest offerings from Swarovski ( 8 x 32 EL ) Leica ( Ultravids) and Zeiss ( modified Victory's) could all lay claim to be worthy of mention amongst the above.
I think I must be hyper -sensitive to "brightness" as in brightness provided by binoculars in daylight.
There are times when I actually consider my Zeiss 7 x 42s to be TOO bright -- I wondered if you ever have the same feeling with your Nikon 12 x 50 SEs ?
One thing is certain -- there are some VERY VERY good binoculars available these days for those with deep pockets.
Regards -- Kenny.
-------------------- If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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brocknroller
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 10/16/03
Posts: 1517
Loc: Liberal, Kansas
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I've owned both the 8X32 and 12X50 SEs, and I recently borrowed a 10X42 SE from a friend for a couple weeks (he has my XL Zooms in return). I watched a nocturnal flying squirrel last night with the 10X42 from about 10 ft. away, amazing detail! Although you give up some TFOV moving from the 8X32 to 10X42 (7.5° vs. 6°), the AFOV is the same -- 60*, and the 10X42s are sharper. Like all SEs, the 10X42s fit my hand like a glove, and I can hold them in the "elbows-in" stance for better stability like a roof bin.
While the 12X50 is a bit better for astronomy, I can't hold it without shakes so that detracts from my enjoyment, and it lacks a good close focus for birding. I like my 8X32 SE very much -- light weight, compact, and wide FOV -- but if I had to choose only one SE, it would be the 10X42, because it's the most versatile -- just the right magnification for handheld binocular astronomy and good close focus for birding. As far as WP, I'd rather have the 10X42 SE and buy a cheaper porro WP bin like the nikon 8X40 extreme since I'm pretty much a fair weather birder. Both bins together would cost less than some top of the line premium roof bins. Although the 10X42 SE is relatively expensive, you can find used and refurbs for under $500. The one I'm using now was bought for under $400 and is in "like new" condition. Check eBay.
-------------------- Oscar Zoroaster Diggs
"O.Z."
#########################################
"And remember, my sentimental friend....a heart is not judged by how much you love,
but by how much you are loved by others."
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Wayne Parrish
sage
   
Reged: 02/23/04
Posts: 442
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Lightrap, Where are you located in N.C. ? I am in Apex,right next to Cary and would like to talk at you some time. Thanks, Wayne Parrish, wparrish2@nc.rr.com
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Erik D
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 2570
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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Wayne,
Welcom. You can send Mike a private email by clicking on <lighttrap> at the top of the thread. Assuming Mike checks his mail box here on regular basis. You can check mail here by clicking on <my home> at the top of the page.
Erik D
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Mike
Thanks for the health warning.
You are right, not everyone will be happy with 12x power on hand-held binos. My first serious astro binoculars were 12 x 50s and I found that I could hand hold them if I was sitting or laying down.
At 900 grams the Nikons look eminently hand-holdable.
Your comment about them not being waterproof leads me onto something that I have been wondering about.
If the binoculars are going to be used mostly for astronomy, why bother going to the extra expense of buying binoculars which are nitrogen-purged, O-ring sealed, etc. Is it really worth the extra money? On a purely "bang per buck" level it is better to save the money and buy optically-excellent binos which are not waterproof. After all, you are unlikely to drop your binoculars into water (unless you have a garden pond....like I do!)
Bruce
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KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10163
Loc: Lancashire UK
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A point I've been making for years Bruce.
It also occurs to me that it is also unlikely one would be out stargazing overmuch in heavy rain.
As far as "bang per buck" goes ,a good porro prism bino is a clear winner over a good roof prism model.
P.S are you making the most of these clear skies ?
I saw 3 satellites in as few minutes the other night whilst looking at Orion.
Two of them looked almost as if they were about to collide in a south / north - east / west junction --right in front of the Orion nebula !
Continuing clear skies -- Kenny.
-------------------- If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
   
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 12601
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Not sure if it has anything to do with it, but my nitrogen purged fujinons are ALWAYS the last ones to dew over on a poor night. All the others drop one by one and the Fujinons are still left standing. Sometimes when all the others are wet, I can cap the 16x70s at the end of the night and the lenses are still dry.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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lighttrap
   
Reged: 02/06/04
Posts: 3833
Loc: cloudy, foggy, humid NC, US
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Quote:
If the binoculars are going to be used mostly for astronomy, why bother going to the extra expense of buying binoculars which are nitrogen-purged, O-ring sealed, etc. Is it really worth the extra money?
This completely and totally depends upon how much dew you get in your area. People that are in locations not subject to amazing amounts of dew, tend to completely underestimate it's long term effect on optics. People used to "night rains" that aren't really rains, but rather very heavy dews will have one set of requirements. The cumulative effects of many, many nights out in 80, 90, 100% humidity will have a very detrimental effect to some very loose, not watertight binoculars. Those with less humidity will have another set of needs. Those living in a desert, who only observe at night, can practically disregard all of this. So it goes.
These days, with relatively low cost, nitrogen purged, O ring sealed, porro prism binoculars so readily available, I'm a big proponent of them for most uses. After all, even if you live where it's bone dry, you never know when you'll be wanting to take your binoculars to a location that isn't. I bird with mine in all kinds of weather. I look at wildlife in most kinds of weather. I astronomize when it suits me, etc.
However, all that being said, the only bins that I've ever actually fogged internally were either on the pretty low end of the spectrum or were practically antiques. In terms of modern binoculars of reasonable quality, like my Carton Adlerblicks or Nikon SE's, I simply don't worry too awfully much about what their waterproofing spec is. The antiquish Zeiss Jenas were another matter. So were the Bushjunk. Fogcity.
Regarding the Nikon SE line, I personally think that they are a good bit more water resistant than Nikon claims. They are not waterproof. I wouldn't dunk them in a tub. But, they do just fine with huge amounts of humidity in any condition short of drenching rains.
Mike Swaim
-------------------- 18" Starsplitter II f/4.5
8" Hardin Dob f/6
C5 workhorse mini SCT f/10 or f/6.3
70mm TV Ranger dual purpose birding/astro
77mm Leica Televid APO
16x70 Fujinons on UA Deluxe Mt.
12x50 Nikon SE
8x30 Nikon E2s
and many others
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lighttrap
   
Reged: 02/06/04
Posts: 3833
Loc: cloudy, foggy, humid NC, US
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Quote:
Not sure if it has anything to do with it, but my nitrogen purged fujinons are ALWAYS the last ones to dew over on a poor night. All the others drop one by one and the Fujinons are still left standing. Sometimes when all the others are wet, I can cap the 16x70s at the end of the night and the lenses are still dry.
Wow! That's WEIRD! It wouldn't have anything to do with them being nitrogen purged, but it very well may have to do with thermal mass cooling down more slowly. Wish I could say the same. Unfortunately, what we always find are that the mounted 70mm binos dew up long before the neck worn binos regardless of config. or quality. That's simply due to the direction that the objectives wind up pointing most of the time and their proximity to a heat source (body).
Long after your scope is dewed up beyond usage, don't forget about the binos around your neck, (you do have binos around your neck, dontcha? ;-) I've spent the tail end of many a wrecked night looking at the sky and the sucker holes through whatever bino was kept warm and dew free by my body heat.
At times, it's almost been a point of pride to be able to keep observing well past "scope-down" with a lowly set of handheld binocs.
Mike Swaim
-------------------- 18" Starsplitter II f/4.5
8" Hardin Dob f/6
C5 workhorse mini SCT f/10 or f/6.3
70mm TV Ranger dual purpose birding/astro
77mm Leica Televid APO
16x70 Fujinons on UA Deluxe Mt.
12x50 Nikon SE
8x30 Nikon E2s
and many others
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KennyJ
   
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 10163
Loc: Lancashire UK
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I wonder ,
Is there not a case therefore for "insulated jackets" for binoculars out there on the old tripod ?
Just a thought -- Kenny.
-------------------- If everyone is thinking the same thing , no-one is thinking - General George S.Patton
Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT
Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50
Nikon 10 x 42 Superior E
Swift Audubon Kestrel 10 x 50
Helios 15 x 70 Observation
Strathspey 20 x 90
Televue 76 APO
Zeiss 85 Diascope
Helios 102 f5 refractor
Various eyepieces barlows tripods mounts etc.
Panasonic Lumix DMC - TZ5 digital camera
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brocknroller
Carpal Tunnel
   
Reged: 10/16/03
Posts: 1517
Loc: Liberal, Kansas
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Quote:
I've owned both the 8X32 and 12X50 SEs, and I recently borrowed a 10X42 SE from a friend for a couple weeks (he has my XL Zooms in return). I watched a nocturnal flying squirrel last night with the 10X42 from about 10 ft. away, amazing detail! Although you give up some TFOV moving from the 8X32 to 10X42 (7.5° vs. 6°), the AFOV is the same -- 60*, and the 10X42s are sharper. Like all SEs, the 10X42s fit my hand like a glove, and I can hold them in the "elbows-in" stance for better stability like a roof bin.
While the 12X50 is a bit better for astronomy, I can't hold it without shakes so that detracts from my enjoyment, and it lacks a good close focus for birding. I like my 8X32 SE very much -- light weight, compact, and wide FOV -- but if I had to choose only one SE, it would be the 10X42, because it's the most versatile -- just the right magnification for handheld binocular astronomy and good close focus for birding. As far as WP, I'd rather have the 10X42 SE and buy a cheaper porro WP bin like the nikon 8X40 extreme since I'm pretty much a fair weather birder. Both bins together would cost less than some top of the line premium roof bins. Although the 10X42 SE is relatively expensive, you can find used and refurbs for under $500. The one I'm using now was bought for under $400 and is in "like new" condition. Check eBay. -- Weird Owl
I beg to differ with Weird Owl. To me, the 12x50 SE provides enough more "punch" to make it noticeably "superior" to the 10x42 for stargazing, and if I'm well braced, it doesn't cause any more jitters than the 10x42.
In addition, my sample has a close focus of 17', which is just a bit more than the 10x42's listed 16.4' close focus (though it sounds like the 10x42 SE Weird Owl tried also had a closer than normal close focus -- 10'?! I have read one 10x42 SE owner report his sample had 13' close focus so perhaps Weird Owl "underguesstimated" by a few feet.
The shallower DOF of the 12x50 SE makes birding somewhat 2-D near close focus, and at close range the 5* TFOV can make finding a bird in the bush like finding a needle in a haystack, however, the 17' close focus comes in handy in a pinch when I'm watching a bird at a distance and another bird of interest lands close by. I usually don't have to back up like I did with the first sample 12x50 SE I had, which had the listed 24' close focus.
I've tried three samples of the 10x42 SE, the first one too briefly to evaluate, but I had the other two samples for a week and month, respectively. I found the 6* FOV of 10x42 SE was too restricted for my tastes. I can live with the 5* of the 12x50s for stargazing and even for long range birding, but for all around birding, I prefered the 8x32 SE, because of its larger 7.5* FOV and greater DOF.
I also had the opportunity to compare the 10x42 SE with two 10x42 LX samples. I found the LX's TFOV measured a few degrees larger than the SE, and the resulting larger AFOV gave a more "open" feeling to the views. The LX's twist-up eyecups were much more comfortable, and allowed me to adjust the ER to my facial features so I could see the entire FOV, which might partly account for the difference in measurements, although even with the rubber eyecups rolled down, the SE still had slightly less TFOV and less AFOV.
The LX's apparent image size is also larger than the SE, which I found more appealing for terrestrial pursuits. At close range the image scale roughly matches my 12x50 SE.
The LX's contrast is noticeably better than the SE's, however, the bin is heavy compared to the SE, and not as comfortable for me to hold.
The newer LX L solves the weight problem, but the 10x42 LX L sample I tried wasn't on par optically with the original LX. The apparent brightness was greater, but too bright, IMO, since it washed out views of brightly lit objects, making them less contrasty and detailed. The LX L's color rendition was also not as "true" as the LX, but slightly wamer (reds had some orange in them).
The LX L had different coatings and different glass (lead-free) than the original LX (though one LX owner reported that Nikon used lead-free glass on the original LX, but never advertised it). Whatever the reason, there was a noticeable difference in image quality btwn the old and new LXs. The original LX's optics in the lighter LX L package would work best, IMO.
Both LX versions suffer from barrel distortion, which I found distracting at times. But otherwise, I felt the LX was "superior" to the 10x42 SE for birding whereas I liked the 10x42 SE better for stargazing (more contrast on the night sky, sharper stars, no barrel distortion). However, the 12x50 SE blew them both away on the night sky.
So after much deliberation, I concluded that the 10x42 SE, rather than being the most "versatile" in the SE line, as Weird Owl asserted above, represents a compromise that for overall birding does not work as well as the 8x32 SE, or for stargazing not as well as the 12x50 SE.
Live and learn is what I say. :-)
Brock
-------------------- Oscar Zoroaster Diggs
"O.Z."
#########################################
"And remember, my sentimental friend....a heart is not judged by how much you love,
but by how much you are loved by others."
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