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Astrophotography and Sketching >> Sketching

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Chopin
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Almaak 2012 11 09
      #5512812 - 11/10/12 08:08 AM

As a novice sketcher, I'm attempting to combine my interest in simple targets while refining my ideas for sketching (both at the eyepiece and of the finished product).

Last night I spent 30 minutes or so observing Almaak (Gamma Andromedae) in my 110mm Newt. The object itself was a striking blast of color and contrast against the sky. I chose 100x, a slightly lower power for this target, mainly to exercise some ideas I've had to record stars in my sketch.

In the pencil sketch you will note how I recorded my observation. First I drew the brightest stars, each numbered to represent approximate brightness order. Next I marked the remaining faint direct vision stars with unlabelled points. Finally I noted the positions for the remaining averted vision stars that scattered the background using a small "x".




Once scanned into my computer I was able to create a multiple layer image in Photoshop, working with the star layers individually. This gave me complete control of the brightness representation through the process. I'm fairly happy with the result. I took some recent suggestions to reduce the size of my bright stars a bit (un-bloating them, so to speak). I've also added some diffuse glow to the brighter stars to represent the eyepiece view.




Additional comments and criticisms are always welcome.


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Asbytec
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: Chopin]
      #5512820 - 11/10/12 08:20 AM

Criticism: N/A Well, maybe the companion appears too greenish on my monitor. Unless of course, that's the color you saw.

Beautiful. You put a lot of effort into it, Jason. It shows. Your technique is working nicely. I really like the way you're representing the star field, including the glow. I include my big hairy MCT diffraction patterns, too. LOL

Scope is cold, gotta run...

BTW, check out this gold mine of a thread.
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbarchive/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/645976/page/...

Edited by Asbytec (11/10/12 09:07 AM)


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Andrev
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5512920 - 11/10/12 10:19 AM

Jason.

Its really beautiful. I like is so much.

Andre.


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Chopin
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5512997 - 11/10/12 11:03 AM

Quote:

Criticism: N/A Well, maybe the companion appears too greenish on my monitor. Unless of course, that's the color you saw.

Beautiful. You put a lot of effort into it, Jason. It shows. Your technique is working nicely. I really like the way you're representing the star field, including the glow. I include my big hairy MCT diffraction patterns, too. LOL

Scope is cold, gotta run...

BTW, check out this gold mine of a thread.
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbarchive/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/645976/page/...





Thanks for the input, Norme. I recall following that thread years back, and was impressed with the attention to detail. Thanks for the resource.

Regarding the blue component star, it may be that my monitor is balanced poorly. I'd love to hear if others are picking up more green than blue. It could also be the diffusion of the yellow star that is causing an optical illusion. Admittedly, I was running into some difficulty choosing the color so that is showed the blue I was seeing, without appearing too blue.


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Chopin
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: Andrev]
      #5513002 - 11/10/12 11:05 AM

Quote:

Jason.

Its really beautiful. I like is so much.

Andre.




Thank you, Andre.


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Asbytec
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: Chopin]
      #5513153 - 11/10/12 12:48 PM

Jason, was thinking about you out observing some doubles tonight. (Sketches coming, maybe...) Yea, one of the hard things for me is really keeping a good mental image of the color. Once you get on the PC's 1 million color palate, they all look right.

Then, yea, (I say "yea" a lot), so okay, yea, sometimes the primary's color influences the companion's color. It does to me, anyway. Looking at a couple of doubles in Aries, 1 Ari and Gamma, they are listed as green. Green? Looked more ruddy to me. But, Green? (No reference to your green, just a coincidence.)

http://dvaa.org/AData/ADDoubles.html

I really do like the way you are approaching your double star sketching. Your stars look realistic.


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Jef De Wit
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5513982 - 11/11/12 04:16 AM

Quote:

Your technique is working nicely



I can only agree!


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Rutilus
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: Jef De Wit]
      #5514628 - 11/11/12 03:12 PM

Nice work.

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frank5817
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: Rutilus]
      #5515073 - 11/11/12 08:56 PM

Jason,

That is a good looking capture of the pair.

Frank


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JimPie
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: frank5817]
      #5515966 - 11/12/12 01:00 PM

Very nice sketch Jason.
To me the companion appears the right hue. But might be over saturated a little.


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Chopin
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: JimPie]
      #5516421 - 11/12/12 06:02 PM

Rutilus and Frank, thank you for the kind words.

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Chopin
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: JimPie]
      #5516427 - 11/12/12 06:05 PM

Quote:

Very nice sketch Jason.
To me the companion appears the right hue. But might be over saturated a little.




Thank you, Jim. I had been thinking that just yesterday when I glanced at the image again. Maybe I'll attempt to desaturate the companion and repost to see if it hits the mark. What else do I have to do with all these darn clouds?!?


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stray1
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: Chopin]
      #5517288 - 11/13/12 05:22 AM

Fantastic sketch, Jason!

I see the companion as a definite blue. The greenish effect that some are seeing might be caused by the mixing of the yellow diffuse glow of the primary with the blue of the companion. To me this appears to be an optical illusion.



-stray-


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niteskystargazer
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: Chopin]
      #5518323 - 11/13/12 05:04 PM

Jason,

Nice sketch of Almaak .

CS,KLU,

,

Tom


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Chopin
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: stray1]
      #5518695 - 11/13/12 09:05 PM

Quote:

Fantastic sketch, Jason!

I see the companion as a definite blue. The greenish effect that some are seeing might be caused by the mixing of the yellow diffuse glow of the primary with the blue of the companion. To me this appears to be an optical illusion.



-stray-





Thanks, Stray. I've been reading some interesting observational reports that have been made of Almaak, and descriptions of the companion range from icy blue to dirty greenish. It's amazing to me how different eyes can observe varying colors in the same subject. I may just leave the sketch as is. We'll call it an "honest impression".


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Ibmelrod
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: Chopin]
      #5518813 - 11/13/12 10:22 PM

Nice work Jason!

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Asbytec
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: Ibmelrod]
      #5518932 - 11/13/12 11:52 PM

Jason, Stray has made it clear my brain suffers from optical illusions. Grrrr!

Yes, report it as you see it, doing otherwise is cheating. To me, the companion is a soft robin's egg blue. But, that may be a function of magnification (hence separation) used. The closer the companion is, maybe the more the primary affects it. Dunno, just a guess. Try it at higher power, say over 200 to 250x. See if your perception changes.


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stray1
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: Chopin]
      #5519032 - 11/14/12 03:22 AM Attachment (6 downloads)

Quote:

Quote:

Fantastic sketch, Jason!

I see the companion as a definite blue. The greenish effect that some are seeing might be caused by the mixing of the yellow diffuse glow of the primary with the blue of the companion. To me this appears to be an optical illusion.



-stray-





Thanks, Stray. I've been reading some interesting observational reports that have been made of Almaak, and descriptions of the companion range from icy blue to dirty greenish. It's amazing to me how different eyes can observe varying colors in the same subject. I may just leave the sketch as is. We'll call it an "honest impression".




Heck, after reading the commentary on colors, I decided to give Almaak a glassing for myself (was planning on spending some time with Mintaka, but that can wait).

Okay, first look at Almaak was a heart-skipping experience (and what binary isn't? I always feel like a little kid at an Easter egg hunt with these gems!) The primary appeared as a light tangerine disc, almost golden in color; however, the companion was more gray than blue. I could sort of see a bluish tint to it, but my seeing was not all that good this morning (it was like trying to focus in on a spinning, flashing disco ball). I'll describe it as a mint cream whitish, beau bluish, timberwolf grayish object leaning heavily toward lupine gray.



-stray-


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Asbytec
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: stray1]
      #5519055 - 11/14/12 04:24 AM

LOL, you're memorizing and using the "flowery" list. And your putting Sketch paint to artistic use. Very nice, by the way.

That's how I see it, even on my monitor. But, sure enough others have reported green, er magic mint with a touch of honeydew, maybe.


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stray1
sage


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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5520483 - 11/15/12 01:59 AM

Quote:

But, sure enough others have reported green, er magic mint with a touch of honeydew, maybe.




Alright gentlemen, I just got home from work a half hour ago; it is 1:55AM; I'm wearing two pair of thermals under my BDU trousers because it is 27-degrees outside currently and I'm going out there to see if I can detect any "minty green" on a tiny point of light in the sky.

My wife thinks I'm losing my mind.



-stray-


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stray1
sage


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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: stray1]
      #5520523 - 11/15/12 03:26 AM

Quote:

Quote:

But, sure enough others have reported green, er magic mint with a touch of honeydew, maybe.




Alright gentlemen, I just got home from work a half hour ago; it is 1:55AM; I'm wearing two pair of thermals under my BDU trousers because it is 27-degrees outside currently and I'm going out there to see if I can detect any "minty green" on a tiny point of light in the sky.

My wife thinks I'm losing my mind.



-stray-




She's probably correct...I am losing my mind...to the stars...heh.

Okay, I spent about 45 minutes observing Almaak and its companion. Used every EP in my collection, viewing both tightly focused and slightly unfocused...no green, minty or otherwise.

I would, however, after this extended viewing session like to change my color commentary of the companion from "white, blue, gray" to a simplified "gas-burner blue". Yep, that sounds about right.

Gas-burner blue...you can quote me on that.



-stray-

Edited by stray1 (11/15/12 03:43 AM)


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Asbytec
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: stray1]
      #5520570 - 11/15/12 05:05 AM

Nice flowery color description, I hope this really takes off.

The other night I told my GF, who was waiting patiently for some attention, that I prefer observing Jupiter to drinking in the bars. She kind of liked that. But, then she realized I might prefer to be out drinking than with her. Anyway, nothing a good hug won't fix...at 3AM. At least you're home.


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Chopin
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: stray1]
      #5523328 - 11/16/12 07:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

But, sure enough others have reported green, er magic mint with a touch of honeydew, maybe.




Alright gentlemen, I just got home from work a half hour ago; it is 1:55AM; I'm wearing two pair of thermals under my BDU trousers because it is 27-degrees outside currently and I'm going out there to see if I can detect any "minty green" on a tiny point of light in the sky.

My wife thinks I'm losing my mind.



-stray-




She's probably correct...I am losing my mind...to the stars...heh.

Okay, I spent about 45 minutes observing Almaak and its companion. Used every EP in my collection, viewing both tightly focused and slightly unfocused...no green, minty or otherwise.

I would, however, after this extended viewing session like to change my color commentary of the companion from "white, blue, gray" to a simplified "gas-burner blue". Yep, that sounds about right.

Gas-burner blue...you can quote me on that.



-stray-





Hey, Stray, thanks for humoring this thread and giving two quality outings to the observation. Very nice sketch, both artistically and observationally. It's making me think I need to go back out and give the observation another go. I do believe that my first sketch was dominated be a strong sense of "psychological" color representation. I'm definitely not color blind, so I think something alse is at play, here.

BTW, "gas-burner blue" is fantastic! It's also a good way to represent real world color in an observation. Unless, of course, you are color blind and you think gas burner light is...greenish.


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Chopin
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5523332 - 11/16/12 07:09 PM

Quote:

Nice flowery color description, I hope this really takes off.

The other night I told my GF, who was waiting patiently for some attention, that I prefer observing Jupiter to drinking in the bars. She kind of liked that. But, then she realized I might prefer to be out drinking than with her. Anyway, nothing a good hug won't fix...at 3AM. At least you're home.




Hey, nothing wrong with ditching the bar and having a nice drink at the telescope. Just drink slowly, otherwise all of your stars will start taking on a greenish hue...


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Asbytec
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: Chopin]
      #5523492 - 11/16/12 09:32 PM

Ah ha! And easier to observe doubles! They all are.

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stray1
sage


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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: Chopin]
      #5525037 - 11/17/12 08:26 PM

Quote:

Hey, Stray, thanks for humoring this thread and giving two quality outings to the observation.




No, Jason, thank YOU. This Almaak survey was just the diversion that I needed after repeated failed attempts at splitting 33 Orionis for the Haas Project. Frustrating to say the least.

After doing some research, I've come to the conclusion that it is not my equipment nor my seeing/transparency conditions.

The problem lies in definite lack of observational skills on my part. I'm using a 90mm refractor. Someone else has apparently split it with an 80mm. I'm thinking that I just do not know what I am looking for or how to look for it. This is not an easy split for me.

Am I ready to call it quits? Heck no! Did we call it quits when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?



-stray-


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Asbytec
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: stray1]
      #5525081 - 11/17/12 08:58 PM



NO! We did not quit! We declared war on France!


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Chopin
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5526959 - 11/18/12 10:11 PM

Just thought I'd post my very quick impressions of tonight's observation, which lasted possibly 10 minutes. For the grab n' go session I used my 72mm ED doublet with a 4mm 50º eyepiece, giving me a magnification similar to my previous observation. What I noticed immediately was the same rich blue that I recorded in the first session. But after paying close attention to the color for a solid 5 minutes the blue faded, until it remained as a "pale icy gray". I wonder if the first view of the star was assisted by my just coming from the lit house. And once dark adaptation began it may be possible that the colors washed away. Likewise, the orange tint in the primary star faded to a dull gold. It's just a hunch. Call it physiological speculation. Anyhoo, here is a sketch of the evening's observation, complete with dancing diffraction rings. The sketch closely approximates how the colors appeared by the end of the session.



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stray1
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: Chopin]
      #5527299 - 11/19/12 03:38 AM

Jason,

Yes! You got it!

Fantastic diffraction rings. How did you achieve the effect?



-stray-


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mikesemmler
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: stray1]
      #5527306 - 11/19/12 03:46 AM

what a fine scetch - Jason. Observing double stars is one of the finest things on our firmament

Michael


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Asbytec
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: mikesemmler]
      #5527328 - 11/19/12 04:40 AM

Nicely done, Jason. Pale icy grey is a good description, and your diffraction patterns are quite good looking.

There are some complex things that go in in the eye when changing from rods to cones. I don't know what those changes are, others can speak to that. Maybe you know the physiology. I kind of trust the eyes to react properly given the stimulation.

Edited by Asbytec (11/19/12 04:43 AM)


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Chopin
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: stray1]
      #5527565 - 11/19/12 09:51 AM

Quote:

Jason,

Yes! You got it!

Fantastic diffraction rings. How did you achieve the effect?



-stray-




Thanks, Stray.

The effect was a combination of transparent layers in Photoshop.

Built from the ground up:

Layer 1 - third (outside) ring painted yellow, with green filter applied to left side and red filter applied to right side to mimic the "not perfectly apo" qualities of my 72ED refractor at 0.7mm exit pupil.

Layer 2 - slightly smaller black circle painted for separation.

Layer 3 - second ring painted yellowish gold.

Layer 4 - slightly smaller black circle painted for separation.

Layer 5 - first ring painted pale orange.

Layer 6 - slightly smaller black circle painted for separation.

Modified transparency of each individual ring layer to fade from center.

Merged layers 1-6.

New combined ring layer - used a soft eraser to create randomly sized radial spikes. New ring layer mimics the "dancing spikes" seen in refractor at small exit pupil.

Layer 7 - Painted primary star yellow.

Adjusted transparency of "dancing spikes" layer to reveal primary star without full distraction.


Repeated for companion, but with fewer layers.


FWIW, creating with layers in the finished sketch is what I enjoy most. A drawing program with layers gives extreme control over a finished sketch and enables you to kill and/or fix a layer individually without ruining the work you have put into the remainder of the illustration. I know, it's obsessive. That's how my mind works.


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Chopin
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: mikesemmler]
      #5527580 - 11/19/12 09:56 AM

Quote:

what a fine scetch - Jason. Observing double stars is one of the finest things on our firmament

Michael




Thank you for the kind words, Michael.

Double stars truly reveal a unique side to observing. It has been a learning experience where I can appreciate the effects of atmospheric seeing more readily than ever before. The beauty of the colors, the challenge of the resolve...I will not hesitate to find new subjects.


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Chopin
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5527583 - 11/19/12 09:57 AM

Quote:

Nicely done, Jason. Pale icy grey is a good description, and your diffraction patterns are quite good looking.

There are some complex things that go in in the eye when changing from rods to cones. I don't know what those changes are, others can speak to that. Maybe you know the physiology. I kind of trust the eyes to react properly given the stimulation.




I understand it minimally...possibly just enough to BS my way through a conversation.


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Special Ed
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: Chopin]
      #5528102 - 11/19/12 02:36 PM

Jason,

I've been trying to get a chance to read this thread for several days now--meanwhile it keeps getting longer. Very nice sketchwork (you, too Stray) and well executed. BTW, in your original post the companion looks blue on my monitor. If the seeing was Ant V for your second sketch, there's no telling what color you saw.

I just stumbled across a double when I made my sketch of M1. I was looking for a nearby star to tweak my focus and happened upon a close binary called Struve 742. You might want to check it out. It's in Taurus.

No doubt you already know, but Jeremy Perez has much valuable info about double star sketching on his Belt of Venus website.


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Chopin
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Re: Almaak 2012 11 09 new [Re: Special Ed]
      #5528554 - 11/19/12 06:40 PM

Thank you, Michael. I've perused Jeremy's site a few times, but never payed close enough attention to his double work. I will need to visit. Much appreciated!

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