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jrbarnett
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Re: "Flowery" Color Terms for Double Star Descriptions new [Re: nytecam]
      #5524422 - 11/17/12 01:59 PM

Ah, but I'm a telescoper, not a spectroscoper, so for me the color terms are sensical and sensible. Should I leave telescoping in favor of spectroscoping, I will be sure to abandon color adjectives.

- Jim


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rookie
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Re: "Flowery" Color Terms for Double Star Descriptions new [Re: nytecam]
      #5525276 - 11/17/12 11:20 PM

Quote:

Anyway, when you've done a bit of spectroscopy, all these colour description seem nonsence



Newton took the spectrum, curved it into a color wheel, and gave us endless possiblities. It's not eggplant, it's aubergine.


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Asbytec
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Re: "Flowery" Color Terms for Double Star Descriptions new [Re: rookie]
      #5525286 - 11/17/12 11:31 PM

Well, in the spectrum, there is no paint can shaker mixing flowery colors, say blue-white with near infra red. But, that doesn't mean we can use them visually. If it looks aubergine, well it looks aubergine. Now, find it's frequency.

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VanJan
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Re: "Flowery" Color Terms for Double Star Descriptions new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5525526 - 11/18/12 05:03 AM

In due consideration of the rather shady nuances of this thread , I suppose I would not be stretching the lexiconical spectrum too far by offering an updated English interpretation of Struve's color description of Zeta B Orionis - "olivaceasubrubicunda" - as an "embarrassed aperture envy" hue.

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rookie
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Re: "Flowery" Color Terms for Double Star Descriptions [Re: VanJan]
      #5526611 - 11/18/12 06:47 PM



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jrbarnett
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Re: "Flowery" Color Terms for Double Star Descriptions new [Re: drollere]
      #6215709 - 11/25/13 05:21 PM

While it is true that many new color hues were the byproduct of the dye and chemicals industry of the industrial revolution, long before industrialization the western color vocabulary had already become rich and varied as a byproduct of heraldry.

Sable was "sable" long before I.G. Farben decided to muck about with "black".



- Jim


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azure1961p
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Re: "Flowery" Color Terms for Double Star Descriptions new [Re: nytecam]
      #6216269 - 11/25/13 10:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Dude, I type fast and am just too lazy to spell check. - Jim


Jim - your sounding a bit Smythy to me and I'd hope we've moved on from those flowery time. Anyway, when you've done a bit of spectroscopy, all these colour description seem nonsence




I think sterilizing a description of humanity by assigning cold spectral values while fine for cold science is all together bland and vacant for the needs of the average naturalist-astronomer. In the stricter pursuit of spectroscopy it works and its needed - but in the looser relaxed sense of one observer expressing an impression to another Smyth-like is preferred. Just so long as it isn't over done - lol - or done like the great Admiral.

Pete


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SusanY
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Re: "Flowery" Color Terms for Double Star Descriptions new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6217600 - 11/26/13 04:43 PM

Great list, Jim. No more ho-hum in my log book. Now all I need is for the cinerious, fuliginous, griseous, cesious, liard, plumbeous, fuscous clouds to clear...

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Rick M.
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Re: "Flowery" Color Terms for Double Star Descriptions new [Re: SusanY]
      #6217870 - 11/26/13 06:58 PM

This stuff reminds me of the writings of wine critics who try to outdo one another by finding more and more exotic tastes/scents in red wine. Any fruit and flower is fair game not to mention the entire spice rack and mineral world.

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mountain monk
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Re: "Flowery" Color Terms for Double Star Descriptions new [Re: Rick M.]
      #6218179 - 11/26/13 09:44 PM

Oh well, an insistence on using quaint vocabulary is always the sign of an amateur. Assuming that the purpose of prose is to communicate clearly, why use cerise instead of cherry red, citron instead of lemon yellow, or aubergine instead of dark purple? And wasn't Aubergine a character in Proust?

Edited by mountain monk (11/26/13 09:45 PM)


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jrbarnett
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Re: "Flowery" Color Terms for Double Star Descriptions new [Re: mountain monk]
      #6218421 - 11/26/13 11:54 PM

"Assuming that the purpose of prose is to communicate clearly..."

And here I thought the purpose of prose was to inform, educate, entertain and inspire. Silly me.

On a more serious note, is there anything less "clear" by calling Alberio "Canary and cobalt" than "Yeller and blue"? No. Rather the converse is true. Yellow and blue are supersets. There are millions of hues of each. Which hue of yellow? Which hue of blue? Canary and cobalt, if applied accurately to the subject, are more accurate than yellow and blue, in addition to being more...interesting.

Regards,

Jim


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Asbytec
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Re: "Flowery" Color Terms for Double Star Descriptions new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6218472 - 11/27/13 12:27 AM

Jim, as a matter of literature, it's better to create an image using nouns and verbs rather than colorful adjectives. "An amber fireball pierces the black expanse..." (simple color, active nouns and verbs), as opposed to, "a fiery chartreuse star seen against a charcoal black sky..." (fiery adjectives, boring nouns and verbs.)

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SusanY
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Re: "Flowery" Color Terms for Double Star Descriptions new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6218493 - 11/27/13 12:48 AM

I agree, and talking personally, I certainly would look a lot longer and a lot more carefully in order to determine the most accurate shade of let’s say a yellow I’m seeing.

Yellow, yellow-ish, yellowy, bright yellow, dull yellow… I get that right off. But canary – that’s a very specific yellow and will mean a lot more to me when I re-read a log book entry later, or want to compare what I saw with what my friend saw. Ditto honey. Gold. Straw. Tawny. Lemon. Primrose.

That's not to say I won't log a yellow, yellow-ish, yellowy, bright yellow, dull yellow - if that best describes what I saw.

I’m not likely to log a fulvous coloured star because I have no clue what shade of yellow fulvous is. No, wait a second, I just looked it up and it describes exactly the colour of the cloud of pollution I often see hanging over Cape Town on windless days when I drive over the mountain. A real onomatopoeiaic word; it sounds as poisonous as it looks.

Edited by SusanY (11/27/13 12:56 AM)


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mountain monk
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Re: "Flowery" Color Terms for Double Star Descriptions new [Re: SusanY]
      #6219067 - 11/27/13 11:10 AM

There are indeed millions of hues, but the names of only a fraction of them are in common use. I have no problem with lemon--indeed, that was one of my examples. Yes, red is too vague, but cherry red? Specific enough for me. Ditto honey, gold, straw… The ordinary lay reader will make those associations easily--same with tangerine, moss, etc. One of Strunk & White's rules (in The Elements of Style) is: Avoid fancy words.

I'm a bit sensitive to this issues since I am both a painter and a writer and I've had editors (at Outside) pull, e.g. "cerulean" as "affected" (oh dear me, where are my smelling salts) even though it is a common color for painters. In general, I go with KISS. And I agree with Asbytec: powerful writing relies on verbs. Again, the classic example is from The Elements of Style: "When Victoria was Queen of England." as opposed to "When Victoria reigned."

And Jim: I always appreciate your writing and wit here on CN. We would be the poorer without it.

Dark skies.

Jack


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jrbarnett
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Re: "Flowery" Color Terms for Double Star Descriptions new [Re: Asbytec]
      #6219679 - 11/27/13 03:47 PM

Dunno Norme. I'd say those two sentences reflect differences in literary *style* rather than differences in literary *quality*. There's no doubt that Lord Byron and John Steinbeck wrote differently stylistically, but I don't think either would be considered a literary hack despite one living on adjectives and the other on verbs and nouns.

- Jim


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jrbarnett
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Re: "Flowery" Color Terms for Double Star Descriptions new [Re: mountain monk]
      #6219721 - 11/27/13 04:05 PM

"...but cherry red..."

The perils of fruit colors.

Here's your sour cherry...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_aDJDrl97gGk/TDDf5_yE3aI/AAAAAAAAAUg/WkZyVY13h8Y/s16...

Your Bing...

http://olfactoria.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/cherries.jpg

Raniers...

http://jillfit.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/cherries.jpg

Etc., etc.

Lemons? Sour, treacherous things!

Bizzaria lemon...

http://www.homecitrusgrowers.co.uk/citrusvarieties/lemonbizzarriafruit2010.jpg

Shiranui...

http://nvdmc.org/images/shiranui.png

Eureka...

http://greenlifeinsocal.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/2010-10-25-022-eureka-lem...

Pinks...

http://www.spadespatula.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/pink-lemons.jpg

Meyer...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Meyer-lemon-ripe.jpg

Etc., etc.

Oh no. Pink limes anyone?

http://www.spadespatula.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/bloodlimes.jpg

(Australian Blood Limes)



And Jack, "cerulean" isn't affected. It's just that half the Outside Magazine audience would need to fetch a dictionary to figure out what you meant. Easier for the editor to label your style as "affected" than his customers as "uneducated" or "uninformed". On the other hand, most of us here on CN wouldn't know a carbiner from a crampon. It's an audience thing.

Also, how many Pulitzers have either Strunk or White won? The appropriate literary style depends more on the subject matter and the audience than any trite "rules" targeted at academics rather than authors or readers.

It's also hardly an either-or proposition. It is possible to use powerful adjectives and adverbs together with powerful nouns and verbs. "When corpulent and prideful Victoria reigned magnanimously."

- Jim

Edited by jrbarnett (11/27/13 06:36 PM)


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mountain monk
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Re: "Flowery" Color Terms for Double Star Descriptions new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6220061 - 11/27/13 06:42 PM

Hah. Wonderful list! Instead of orange, how about fuyu?!

Re Strunk & White: I thought you were the guy who found lists useful.

But yes, the best way to learn to write prose is to read great writers, and I think dear old Smyth would have benefited (assuming it possible) from a dose of Hemingway, Fitzgerald, or Salter. But then Hass, who keeps it simple, still has "brilliant citrus orange" for Albireo. Really? Fuyu, me thinks. I think I'll start my own list. Leek green, cabbage purple, rutabaga cream… What great sport.

Dark skies.

Jack


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jrbarnett
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Re: "Flowery" Color Terms for Double Star Descriptions new [Re: mountain monk]
      #6220303 - 11/27/13 09:05 PM

"Having already stated the why and the wherefore of
the question elsewhere, it only remains to show the ne-
cessity of acting in concert, and on a settled plan, so as
to obtain a more exact nomenclature in Chroma. Our
having noted the colours from fruits, flowers, vegetables,
jewels, and the like, involves conflicting uncertainty,
since most of those objects are of various tints. Indeed,
as a proof of the imperfection of such comparisons, I
will here cite a sample from my own practice, placing
the inexact epithets which I have used in Roman print,
and what was probably meant is expressed in Italics :

Amethyst . . . Purple

Apple green . . . Brownish green

Ash colour . . . Pale dull grey

Beet hue . . .Crimson

Cinereous . . . Wood-ash tint

Cherry-colour . . .Pale red

Cobalt .... Bluish white

Creamy .... Pale white

Crocus . . . Deep yellow

Damson . . Dark purple

Dusky . . . Brownish hue

Emerald .... Lucid green

Fawn-coloured ... Whitey-brown

Flushed .... Reddened

Garnet .... Red of various shades

Golden hue . . . Bright yellow

Grape red . . . A variety of purple

Jacinth .... Pellucid orange tint

Lemon-coloured . . Bright but pale yellow

Lilac . . . . Light purple

Livid .... Lead colour

Melon tint . . . Greenish yellow

Orpiment . . . Bright yellow

Pale .... Deficient in hue

Pearl colour . . . Shining white

Plum colour . . . Pale purple

Radish tint . . . Dull purple

Rose tint . . . Flushed crimson

Ruby colour . . . Pellucid red

Ruddy . . . . Flesh-coloured

Sapphire . . . Blue tint

Sardonyx . . . Reddish yellow

Sea green . . . Faint cold green

Silvery .... Mild white lustre

Smalt .... Fine deep blue

Topaz .... Lucid yellow

Vanilla tint . . . Dark brown or chocolate"

Know who that is? Yup. Admiral Smyth!

I'm gonna find me a sardonyx and orpiment pair. Just out of spite.

- Jim


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mountain monk
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Re: "Flowery" Color Terms for Double Star Descriptions new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6220620 - 11/28/13 12:59 AM

OK, Admiral. I spent fifty years walking up Garnet Canyon in the Teton Range, and I can tell you that the place is brimming with garnets. Oodles of them. Problem is…they are all black. And, counsel, a brief glance at Wiki will inform you and the Admiral that garnets also come in orange, yellow, green, purple, brown, blue, pink, and…(closing argument)…COLORLESS!

May I make a modest suggestion: Perhaps it would be best to stick with the primaries--red, yellow, and blue--and the secondaries--green, purple, and orange. Anything more leads to obfuscation. But then…how boring.

Dark skies.

Jack



Edited by mountain monk (11/28/13 01:02 AM)


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Bill Boublitz
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Re: "Flowery" Color Terms for Double Star Descriptions new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #6220660 - 11/28/13 01:54 AM

One who dares to claim seeing through another's eyes is.... What shall I say?... [The "Lords of Moderation" would not permit the term.]

Who among us can claim that what I call red is what another sees as red? We might agree on the experience and amicably agree to call it red, but the experience remains an individual one. My Father is color-blind. He can't match a shirt and tie, but he can see festoons on Jupiter, as well as remarkable detail in the "Red" spot... Um... I mean, "The Great Pink Spot"... No... that should be; "The Great Salmon Spot." Actually; "The Great Brown Spot." [BTW; I heard it turned "Orange" this year.... some Bozos claim Tangerine... but what do they know? :]

In the interest of science (and science's true purpose; "enlightenment"), perhaps we should cast aside the entire concept of the "individual." Instead, we might reduce the individual and individual experience to more quantifiable concepts. This would provide us with real data, real science, real truth; real enlightenment. Hence;

Was it Black or White? Was it One or Zero? Was it On or Off? Did it Hurt or Not? The future of the Technologists is such a promising one...

History has repeatedly demonstrated; the human condition is most often shaped by the unforeseen individual. Personally, I can deal with Lilac. At least until humans can quantify ourselves. Otherwise, our science is equivalent to that of Spiders.

Signed,

~ One more lunatic who has actually seen Lilac stars, even though he knows it not likely possible. Good wishes, All!


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