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Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

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korborh
professor emeritus

Reged: 01/29/11

Re: Astro-Physics APCC is here new

[Re: Calypte]
#5533565 - 11/22/12 09:10 AM

Its not AP that manufactures these chips....just programs them. Chips are mass manufactured.
I don't know what exact chip it is, but $80 for a ROM chip seems overly expensive. I'd be interested to know the chip details though that make them so costly assuming AP is not marking them up 5x.

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BlueGrass
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 07/25/09

Loc: Wasatch Front, UT

Re: Astro-Physics APCC is here new

[Re: korborh]
#5533611 - 11/22/12 09:38 AM

Perhaps to salve the underlying complaint about how expensive AP equipment is, the replacement ROM should be included with the purchase of APCC? $80? AP? ... sounds about right to me ...

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Ray Gralak
Vendor (PEMPro)

Reged: 04/19/08

Re: Astro-Physics APCC is here new

[Re: korborh]
#5533642 - 11/22/12 10:03 AM

Quote:

Its not AP that manufactures these chips....just programs them. Chips are mass manufactured.
I don't know what exact chip it is, but $80 for a ROM chip seems overly expensive. I'd be interested to know the chip details though that make them so costly assuming AP is not marking them up 5x.

First, these chips are not your typical ROM. The part itself is expensive (I heard $30-35). That doesn't include the labor cost to program the chips.

Plus, I know that there was a lot of development and testing time that went into this new version. The new chip significantly improves the robustness of the mount when used with the AP V2 ASCOM driver. I think that AP has the right to recoup some of the development costs that went into making this chip. I really find it interesting that people are complaining about the cost of this chip. If $80 is too much for you then don't upgrade, but don't complain about the price. It is very reasonable considering the price of these mounts.

-Ray Gralak

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Ray Gralak
Vendor (PEMPro)

Reged: 04/19/08

Re: Astro-Physics APCC is here new

[Re: BlueGrass]
#5533660 - 11/22/12 10:10 AM

Quote:

Perhaps to salve the underlying complaint about how expensive AP equipment is, the replacement ROM should be included with the purchase of APCC? $80? AP? ... sounds about right to me ...

And when mounts start shipping with the new chip they would expect a $80 discount if they buy APCC.

The pricing was set individually because some people might not want both APCC and the "S" chip. Some might not want either. You can pick what you want.

-Ray Gralak

Edited by Ray Gralak (11/22/12 10:11 AM)

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FaronD
super member

Reged: 03/25/10

Loc: Richmond Hill, Ontario

Re: Astro-Physics APCC is here new

[Re: andysea]
#5533684 - 11/22/12 10:23 AM

Quote:

I seem to remember that APCC is really effective if you have a permanent setup. For those who have to travel it might not be necessary as a new pointing model would have to be generated at every imaging session.
I see that they have a 30day trial version. Since I have the S chip I might download it and report back. I will have to wait for better weather here in the NW which means months from now

Andy

Hi Andy, what benefits did you gain by adding the S-chip to your Mach 1? I understand it is required for the APCC software, are there any new features besides that?

Thanks
Faron

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BlueGrass
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 07/25/09

Loc: Wasatch Front, UT

Re: Astro-Physics APCC is here new

[Re: Ray Gralak]
#5533688 - 11/22/12 10:25 AM

Ray,
+1. People need to keep in mind that AP is not some large, mass production concern operating out of China. There is a reason AP equipment is held in such high regard and it has nothing to do with the cost of their products.

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David Pavlich
Transmographied

Reged: 05/18/05

Loc: Mandeville, LA USA

Re: Astro-Physics APCC is here new

[Re: Ray Gralak]
#5533698 - 11/22/12 10:33 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Perhaps to salve the underlying complaint about how expensive AP equipment is, the replacement ROM should be included with the purchase of APCC? $80? AP? ... sounds about right to me ...

And when mounts start shipping with the new chip they would expect a $80 discount if they buy APCC.

The pricing was set individually because some people might not want both APCC and the "S" chip. Some might not want either. You can pick what you want.

-Ray Gralak

Thanks for the post, Ray.

David

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andysea
sage

Reged: 09/03/10

Loc: Seattle, WA

Re: Astro-Physics APCC is here new

[Re: FaronD]
#5533831 - 11/22/12 12:00 PM

Hi Faron,
The S chip became available as I ordered the mach1. For $65 it sounded like a no-brainer upgrade. I ordered it mostly for resale value.

Andy

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wiruna
member

Reged: 08/11/06

Loc: Sydney, Australia

Re: Astro-Physics APCC is here new

[Re: andysea]
#5534281 - 11/22/12 06:03 PM

Quote:

Hi Faron,
The S chip became available as I ordered the mach1. For $65 it sounded like a no-brainer upgrade. I ordered it mostly for resale value.

Andy

Similar experience for me. I got a new AP900 in August and I still qualify for the $65 upgrade. Cost of a new mount plus shipping and Australian taxes made the $65 a clear no-brainer.
Geoff

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Starhawk
Post Laureate

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona

Re: Astro-Physics APCC is here new

[Re: wiruna]
#5534357 - 11/22/12 07:34 PM

Any differences for standalone operation?

-Rich

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korborh
professor emeritus

Reged: 01/29/11

Re: Astro-Physics APCC is here new

[Re: Ray Gralak]
#5534426 - 11/22/12 08:31 PM

Quote:

I really find it interesting that people are complaining about the cost of this chip. If $80 is too much for you then don't upgrade, but don't complain about the price. It is very reasonable considering the price of these mounts. -Ray Gralak

Ray, if you read my post, I deemed $80 as expensive and decided not to upgrade. Not complaining, just want to understand the price. Hopefully someone will post the chip details when they get it.

BTW, price of mount has nothing to do with the price of the chip.

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M13 Observer
professor emeritus

Reged: 12/09/06

Re: Astro-Physics APCC is here new

[Re: korborh]
#5534523 - 11/22/12 09:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I really find it interesting that people are complaining about the cost of this chip. If $80 is too much for you then don't upgrade, but don't complain about the price. It is very reasonable considering the price of these mounts. -Ray Gralak

Ray, if you read my post, I deemed $80 as expensive and decided not to upgrade. Not complaining, just want to understand the price. Hopefully someone will post the chip details when they get it.

BTW, price of mount has nothing to do with the price of the chip.

Not sure what you mean by "chip details when they get it". I can tell you that it won't look any different than the square one that is in your CP3 right now. The software/firmware on it will allow you to do certain things you could not do previously IF you have additional software which will take advantage of it.

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Ray Gralak
Vendor (PEMPro)

Reged: 04/19/08

Re: Astro-Physics APCC is here new

[Re: korborh]
#5534532 - 11/22/12 10:07 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I really find it interesting that people are complaining about the cost of this chip. If $80 is too much for you then don't upgrade, but don't complain about the price. It is very reasonable considering the price of these mounts. -Ray Gralak

Ray, if you read my post, I deemed $80 as expensive and decided not to upgrade. Not complaining, just want to understand the price. Hopefully someone will post the chip details when they get it.

BTW, price of mount has nothing to do with the price of the chip.

That's not what I said. I said the price of the chip is inexpensive compared to the price of the mount. The cost of the chip includes the physical cost of the chip, labor to program it, and the amortized cost of its development. Again, no one is forcing you to buy it. If you are happy with the firmware you have then that's great.

-Ray

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Ray Gralak
Vendor (PEMPro)

Reged: 04/19/08

Re: Astro-Physics APCC is here new

[Re: M13 Observer]
#5534536 - 11/22/12 10:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I really find it interesting that people are complaining about the cost of this chip. If $80 is too much for you then don't upgrade, but don't complain about the price. It is very reasonable considering the price of these mounts. -Ray Gralak

Ray, if you read my post, I deemed $80 as expensive and decided not to upgrade. Not complaining, just want to understand the price. Hopefully someone will post the chip details when they get it.

BTW, price of mount has nothing to do with the price of the chip.

Not sure what you mean by "chip details when they get it". I can tell you that it won't look any different than the square one that is in your CP3 right now. The software/firmware on it will allow you to do certain things you could not do previously IF you have additional software which will take advantage of it.

Some of the additional software is free and already available. The V2 ASCOM driver takes advantage of many of the new commands, the most significant of which are those that can read the mount state. So, without initializing the mount the ASCOM driver will know the complete state of the mount. If another application or the keypad changes the mount state, the driver will now see the change and diaplay it. There is a new command that will prevent the mount from tracking after a power cycle, thus preventing one common case of the mount "getting lost" or losing pointing accuracy. Other improvements and refinements have been made to improve accuracy and robustness when tracking, slewing and parking.

-Ray

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gavinm
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 08/26/05

Loc: Auckland New Zealand

Re: Astro-Physics APCC is here new

[Re: korborh]
#5534578 - 11/22/12 10:47 PM

Quote:

BTW, price of mount has nothing to do with the price of the chip.

I agree completely. What I find fascinating is the consumer psyche where people will pay tens of thousands of dollars on hardware, but consider $100 for some software to use it to its full capabilities too expensive. Happens all the time. Not exactly the same in this case, but you see what I mean. Not meant to be a criticism..sorry if you took it that way.

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korborh
professor emeritus

Reged: 01/29/11

Re: Astro-Physics APCC is here new

[Re: Ray Gralak]
#5534643 - 11/22/12 11:48 PM

Quote:

Other improvements and refinements have been made to improve accuracy and robustness when tracking, slewing and parking. -Ray

Ray, where can one find the details of these accuracy improvements?

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korborh
professor emeritus

Reged: 01/29/11

Re: Astro-Physics APCC is here new

[Re: gavinm]
#5534652 - 11/22/12 11:55 PM

Quote:

What I find fascinating is the consumer psyche where people will pay tens of thousands of dollars on hardware, but consider $100 for some software to use it to its full capabilities too expensive.

Depends on how useful the added capabilities are to the particular consumers' needs.
And there are also consumers who will throw money on stuff without knowing enough to know they need it.

Post Extras:

Ray Gralak
Vendor (PEMPro)

Reged: 04/19/08

Re: Astro-Physics APCC is here new

[Re: korborh]
#5534697 - 11/23/12 12:58 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Other improvements and refinements have been made to improve accuracy and robustness when tracking, slewing and parking. -Ray

Ray, where can one find the details of these accuracy improvements?

I'm not sure that you can, but I gave you one example... that is the power cycle scenario. If the mount was not parked the accuracy of the RA position can be compromised. That's because there is usually a non-zero time between the time power is applied and mount initialization. This causes an error in RA position equal to the time it takes to initialize the mount. The error doesn't happen if you park the mount but can anyway if power is unexpectedly lost or an application unknowingly starts tracking after the mount was parked.

-Ray

Edited by Ray Gralak (11/23/12 12:59 AM)

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JMW
scholastic sledgehammer

Reged: 02/11/07

Loc: Nevada

Re: Astro-Physics APCC is here new

[Re: Ray Gralak]
#5536171 - 11/23/12 07:59 PM

I just put in the order for the S chip. I also ordered a 24 pound counterweight. I am looking forward to APCC. I will feel more confident about letting the mount go unattended while imaging after set up mount limits.

My biggest challenge will be using PEMpro to reprogram the periodic error after upgrading the chip. I have been using the mount for about 8 months so maybe its time to use PEMpro anyway.

I have been very happy with the AP900GTO mount. It is a very well made mount and it so much nicer than my old Atlas for imaging. I now can image from 420mm to 2800mm in focal length. My 20 minute exposures at 2800mm look much better than my 5 minute 800mm ones ever did on the Atlas.

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M13 Observer
professor emeritus

Reged: 12/09/06

Re: Astro-Physics APCC is here new

[Re: JMW]
#5536379 - 11/23/12 10:31 PM

Quote:

My 20 minute exposures at 2800mm look much better than my 5 minute 800mm ones ever did on the Atlas.

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