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Qwickdraw
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 03/03/12

Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Pess]
      #5528261 - 11/19/12 03:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I think I'd be willing to take that bet.




Same here, I wonder how much Pess is willing to bet?
As a matter of fact, I will make it easy bet against proof of life on Mars being found not EVER existing with the qualification that we did not or do not bring it there.





But, in regards to the bet, how does one 'prove' a negative?





Well, there you go...
you just conceded it is a negative, pay up !


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Pess
(Title)
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Reged: 09/12/07

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Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #5528441 - 11/19/12 05:30 PM

I would be willing to cede the Mars life argument if no life is detected in the first cave system we evaluate.

Pesse (But if that nightclub is a pop'n you pay up!) Mist


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llanitedave
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Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Pess]
      #5529079 - 11/19/12 11:05 PM

Quote:


So the Universe may be colonized already but planets are looked at solely as too much a pain in the butt to colonize and not worth the energy to extract resources from.





That's my working hypothesis!


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Mister T
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Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5529737 - 11/20/12 10:12 AM

http://www.npr.org/2012/11/20/165513016/big-news-from-mars-rover-scientists-m...

could be some good stuff

I'm guessing life on Mars moves at 101% of c


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Pess
(Title)
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Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: The silence is deafening.... [Re: Mister T]
      #5530362 - 11/20/12 02:54 PM

Quote:

http://www.npr.org/2012/11/20/165513016/big-news-from-mars-rover-scientists-m...

could be some good stuff

I'm guessing life on Mars moves at 101% of c




Pesse (That's just a tachy idea...) Mist


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Hikari
scholastic sledgehammer
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Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Pess]
      #5537695 - 11/24/12 07:02 PM

The silence may actually be an indication of intelligent life--they did not bother inventing TV. Which would also mean they kept their intelligence. They may also be introverts where trying to find everyone in the universe and then worrying on how to get there or communicate with them was not a high priority.

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Rick Woods
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Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Hikari]
      #5538120 - 11/25/12 12:41 AM

Quote:

The silence may actually be an indication of intelligent life--they did not bother inventing TV. Which would also mean they kept their intelligence. They may also be introverts where trying to find everyone in the universe and then worrying on how to get there or communicate with them was not a high priority.




Good thought. They probably realize that once you get to know the neighbors, pretty soon they'll be wanting to borrow your stuff and not return it.


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InterStellarGuy
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Reged: 06/25/08

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Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5538195 - 11/25/12 02:00 AM

I don't get why people refer to the silence. Considering the only program we have at the moment, SETI, is far from conclusive, an the parameters required for it to succeed are so narrow that we could be smack dab in the middle of a galactic conversation between hundreds of sentient, intelligent species and never detect a single one. I find it far shortsighted to refer to the silence when our technology is in its infancy at detecting ET. If an ET civilization was living on a world orbitting Alpha Centuari AB, with our exact level of technology, they would be unable to detect us, unless we sent a signal there way, on a specific frequency, and they happened to be listening to our direction, at that frequency, at that moment, to hear it.

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Qwickdraw
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Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: InterStellarGuy]
      #5538327 - 11/25/12 07:13 AM

Quote:

I don't get why people refer to the silence. Considering the only program we have at the moment, SETI, is far from conclusive, an the parameters required for it to succeed are so narrow that we could be smack dab in the middle of a galactic conversation between hundreds of sentient, intelligent species and never detect a single one. I find it far shortsighted to refer to the silence when our technology is in its infancy at detecting ET. If an ET civilization was living on a world orbitting Alpha Centuari AB, with our exact level of technology, they would be unable to detect us, unless we sent a signal there way, on a specific frequency, and they happened to be listening to our direction, at that frequency, at that moment, to hear it.





One question...
Have you heard any signal source by any means?
Didnt think so


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InterStellarGuy
professor emeritus
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Reged: 06/25/08

Loc: Overland Park, KS
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #5538717 - 11/25/12 01:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I don't get why people refer to the silence. Considering the only program we have at the moment, SETI, is far from conclusive, an the parameters required for it to succeed are so narrow that we could be smack dab in the middle of a galactic conversation between hundreds of sentient, intelligent species and never detect a single one. I find it far shortsighted to refer to the silence when our technology is in its infancy at detecting ET. If an ET civilization was living on a world orbitting Alpha Centuari AB, with our exact level of technology, they would be unable to detect us, unless we sent a signal there way, on a specific frequency, and they happened to be listening to our direction, at that frequency, at that moment, to hear it.





One question...
Have you heard any signal source by any means?
Didnt think so




Signal source? Of course we haven't gotten any signals. That's my point, our technology is severely limited by the type of signals we can even detect.

We can only detect signals that are directly beamed to us, and at a certain frequency, and only if we are listening.

Contrary to what some may think, SETI is *NOT* capable of detecting radio leakage. We couldnt detect say, for example, the TV broad casts of aliens living on a world around Alpha Centauri AB.


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Qwickdraw
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 03/03/12

Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: InterStellarGuy]
      #5538748 - 11/25/12 01:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I don't get why people refer to the silence. Considering the only program we have at the moment, SETI, is far from conclusive, an the parameters required for it to succeed are so narrow that we could be smack dab in the middle of a galactic conversation between hundreds of sentient, intelligent species and never detect a single one. I find it far shortsighted to refer to the silence when our technology is in its infancy at detecting ET. If an ET civilization was living on a world orbitting Alpha Centuari AB, with our exact level of technology, they would be unable to detect us, unless we sent a signal there way, on a specific frequency, and they happened to be listening to our direction, at that frequency, at that moment, to hear it.





One question...
Have you heard any signal source by any means?
Didnt think so




Signal source? Of course we haven't gotten any signals. That's my point, our technology is severely limited by the type of signals we can even detect.

We can only detect signals that are directly beamed to us, and at a certain frequency, and only if we are listening.

Contrary to what some may think, SETI is *NOT* capable of detecting radio leakage. We couldnt detect say, for example, the TV broad casts of aliens living on a world around Alpha Centauri AB.




I was only suggesting that is the reason it is considered "silence"

be well


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Andy Taylor
Twisted, but in a Good Way
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Reged: 09/24/08

Loc: Epsom - UK
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: InterStellarGuy]
      #5538877 - 11/25/12 02:49 PM

Quote:


Signal source? Of course we haven't gotten any signals. That's my point, our technology is severely limited by the type of signals we can even detect.

We can only detect signals that are directly beamed to us, and at a certain frequency, and only if we are listening.

Contrary to what some may think, SETI is *NOT* capable of detecting radio leakage. We couldnt detect say, for example, the TV broad casts of aliens living on a world around Alpha Centauri AB.




Ho Hum. never anything good on the telly...


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FirstSightModerator
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Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Andy Taylor]
      #5539183 - 11/25/12 06:12 PM

The simple explanation for the silence is likely that:
1) although intelligent life is, in aggregate, relatively abundant throughout the universe;
2) it is nevertheless extremely sparsely distributed, with the mean distance between intelligent civilizations so vast as to attenuate any signals therefrom far below any practical ability to distinguish them from background noise.

This sparse distribution may even be a feature, rather than a bug, which contains any pathologically destructive aspects of life in one location from invasively affecting another. It also contains more technologically advanced civilizations from predatory intrusions on less advanced civilizations, e.g. Columbus on the Native Americans.


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Pess
(Title)
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Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: InterStellarGuy]
      #5540152 - 11/26/12 11:26 AM

Quote:

I don't get why people refer to the silence. Considering the only program we have at the moment, SETI, is far from conclusive, an the parameters required for it to succeed are so narrow that we could be smack dab in the middle of a galactic conversation between hundreds of sentient, intelligent species and never detect a single one. I find it far shortsighted to refer to the silence when our technology is in its infancy at detecting ET. If an ET civilization was living on a world orbitting Alpha Centuari AB, with our exact level of technology, they would be unable to detect us, unless we sent a signal there way, on a specific frequency, and they happened to be listening to our direction, at that frequency, at that moment, to hear it.




You are missing the point.

The Universe has been around long enough that other civilizations would exhibit a broad spectrum of technology with some being more advanced, others less advanced than us.

So why are the more advanced ones so introverted?

My feeling is that we are so far behind the evolutionary curve of advanced space faring races that we are not worth contacting. It is only our hubris that makes man think he is the end all product of evolution.

Could you imagine man trying to contact the dinosaurs on a planet a million years behind us in evolution?

Man is still evolving. We have artificial hips, ears, knees etc. Someday the entire body will be replaced (TP=Total prosthesis) and will man still be man?

AI could come to dominate. Perhaps man will rapidly become a foot note?

We look for the first cell. Perhaps space faring races see the invention of the transistor back in Bell labs as their equivalent of a 'first cell' progeny.


Pesse (We got a long way to go and a short time to get there.) Mist


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Qwickdraw
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5543301 - 11/28/12 05:47 AM

Quote:


This sparse distribution may even be a feature, rather than a bug, which contains any pathologically destructive aspects of life in one location from invasively affecting another. It also contains more technologically advanced civilizations from predatory intrusions on less advanced civilizations, e.g. Columbus on the Native Americans.




It almost sounds like you are suggesting this "sparseness" is a necessary evolutionary step. If so I would suggest that even this feature as you describe it would not have had enough time to evolve unless there is an intelligent design already implemented in the life process to allow for this.


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InterStellarGuy
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Loc: Overland Park, KS
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Pess]
      #5544074 - 11/28/12 03:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I don't get why people refer to the silence. Considering the only program we have at the moment, SETI, is far from conclusive, an the parameters required for it to succeed are so narrow that we could be smack dab in the middle of a galactic conversation between hundreds of sentient, intelligent species and never detect a single one. I find it far shortsighted to refer to the silence when our technology is in its infancy at detecting ET. If an ET civilization was living on a world orbitting Alpha Centuari AB, with our exact level of technology, they would be unable to detect us, unless we sent a signal there way, on a specific frequency, and they happened to be listening to our direction, at that frequency, at that moment, to hear it.




You are missing the point.

The Universe has been around long enough that other civilizations would exhibit a broad spectrum of technology with some being more advanced, others less advanced than us.

So why are the more advanced ones so introverted?

My feeling is that we are so far behind the evolutionary curve of advanced space faring races that we are not worth contacting. It is only our hubris that makes man think he is the end all product of evolution.

Could you imagine man trying to contact the dinosaurs on a planet a million years behind us in evolution?

Man is still evolving. We have artificial hips, ears, knees etc. Someday the entire body will be replaced (TP=Total prosthesis) and will man still be man?

AI could come to dominate. Perhaps man will rapidly become a foot note?

We look for the first cell. Perhaps space faring races see the invention of the transistor back in Bell labs as their equivalent of a 'first cell' progeny.


Pesse (We got a long way to go and a short time to get there.) Mist




Well soon it wont matter. As exoplanet research and detection gets better, we will eventually reach the point where we can detect the signatures of techology in an exo-atmosphere, and from that, infer that there is an intelligent civilization living on that world, (For example, if we detect CFCs in an alien atmosphere, since CFCs do not occur naturally, we know someone made them) so I think more likely we will find them before they ever reach out to us.


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Pess
(Title)
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Reged: 09/12/07

Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: InterStellarGuy]
      #5544138 - 11/28/12 04:01 PM

Quote:

Well soon it wont matter. As exoplanet research and detection gets better, we will eventually reach the point where we can detect the signatures of techology in an exo-atmosphere, and from that, infer that there is an intelligent civilization living on that world, (For example, if we detect CFCs in an alien atmosphere, since CFCs do not occur naturally, we know someone made them) so I think more likely we will find them before they ever reach out to us.




Agreed. 'Our' discovery of life elsewhere will happen when our technology gets to the point where we can run spectroscopic analysis of distant planets atmospheres.

Even simple plant life will sustain an oxygen atmosphere that would not otherwise exist.

Pesse (with our luck a first contact alien would have a lisp and the farmer thought he heard, "Take me to your Weeder...") Mist


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llanitedave
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Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #5544153 - 11/28/12 04:11 PM

Quote:

Quote:


This sparse distribution may even be a feature, rather than a bug, which contains any pathologically destructive aspects of life in one location from invasively affecting another. It also contains more technologically advanced civilizations from predatory intrusions on less advanced civilizations, e.g. Columbus on the Native Americans.




It almost sounds like you are suggesting this "sparseness" is a necessary evolutionary step. If so I would suggest that even this feature as you describe it would not have had enough time to evolve unless there is an intelligent design already implemented in the life process to allow for this.




Genetic isolation is a factor in nearly all evolutionary change. I don't see how isolation would have required intelligence since it's the default value in our kind of vast spacetime.


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llanitedave
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Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: InterStellarGuy]
      #5544157 - 11/28/12 04:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I don't get why people refer to the silence. Considering the only program we have at the moment, SETI, is far from conclusive, an the parameters required for it to succeed are so narrow that we could be smack dab in the middle of a galactic conversation between hundreds of sentient, intelligent species and never detect a single one. I find it far shortsighted to refer to the silence when our technology is in its infancy at detecting ET. If an ET civilization was living on a world orbitting Alpha Centuari AB, with our exact level of technology, they would be unable to detect us, unless we sent a signal there way, on a specific frequency, and they happened to be listening to our direction, at that frequency, at that moment, to hear it.




You are missing the point.

The Universe has been around long enough that other civilizations would exhibit a broad spectrum of technology with some being more advanced, others less advanced than us.

So why are the more advanced ones so introverted?

My feeling is that we are so far behind the evolutionary curve of advanced space faring races that we are not worth contacting. It is only our hubris that makes man think he is the end all product of evolution.

Could you imagine man trying to contact the dinosaurs on a planet a million years behind us in evolution?

Man is still evolving. We have artificial hips, ears, knees etc. Someday the entire body will be replaced (TP=Total prosthesis) and will man still be man?

AI could come to dominate. Perhaps man will rapidly become a foot note?

We look for the first cell. Perhaps space faring races see the invention of the transistor back in Bell labs as their equivalent of a 'first cell' progeny.


Pesse (We got a long way to go and a short time to get there.) Mist




Well soon it wont matter. As exoplanet research and detection gets better, we will eventually reach the point where we can detect the signatures of techology in an exo-atmosphere, and from that, infer that there is an intelligent civilization living on that world, (For example, if we detect CFCs in an alien atmosphere, since CFCs do not occur naturally, we know someone made them) so I think more likely we will find them before they ever reach out to us.




Again, however, this assumes that any life we find is planet-bound. This might only be true for the more primitive phases of life, up to and including our own level of technology, but not so much for technology even slightly beyond ours.


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Jarad
Postmaster
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Reged: 04/28/03

Loc: Atlanta, GA
Re: The silence is deafening.... new [Re: InterStellarGuy]
      #5544168 - 11/28/12 04:19 PM

Quote:

Well soon it wont matter. As exoplanet research and detection gets better, we will eventually reach the point where we can detect the signatures of techology in an exo-atmosphere, and from that, infer that there is an intelligent civilization living on that world, (For example, if we detect CFCs in an alien atmosphere, since CFCs do not occur naturally, we know someone made them) so I think more likely we will find them before they ever reach out to us.




I dunno - I think it will be a while before we can detect signatures of small percentages of chemicals in the atmosphere of a planet around Alpha Centauri, and I think that the range on such detection will be limited to the nearest stars, if any. They aren't emitting photons themselves, they absorb photons, which means we will be relying on detecting absorption lines in spectra of the tiny fraction of starlight that passes through the planet's atmosphere against the background of the star's full light. That's a pretty miniscule signal to examine...

Jarad


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