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Observing >> Deep Sky Observing

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blb
Post Laureate


Reged: 11/25/05

Loc: Piedmont NC
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: RolandosCY]
      #5533571 - 11/22/12 09:14 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The brightness of IC434 is similar to that of the Veil.




I beg to differ. It must be considerably fainter. The Veil (eastern half) is easy as pie in any of my telescopes, even unfiltered, but I've never seen a hint of IC 434, despite looking for it on some very good nights in the past.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark



Hmmm. I meant the unfiltered view. Then again, I don't usually check both on the same night. One thing that I have noticed is that IC434 needs some seconds to materialize, but once it appears it does seem similar. One possibility is that the usual practice is to locate first Zeta Orionis which appears VERY BRIGHT, possibly ruining some dark adaptation, and then IC434. Hence the "delay effect" in detecting IC434. The area has many stars much brighter than those around the Veil. Also, the fact that I usually see IC 434 about 20 degrees higher in the sky than you may also play a role.

IC434 (and the HH) are quite a strange case. Walter Scott Huston mentions that IC434 is visible in 60mm refractors. I once (only once!) spotted it (without a filter) with an 80mm refractor. Yet usually it is tough in a 10" reflector. Then, once spotted, makes you wonder why you couldn't notice it in the first place.

I have to admit that the HorseHead is one of my favorite (if not THE favorite) targets, and this is the reason I have analyzed its visibility (or lack thereof!) so much!




I have never seen IC434 as bright as the Veil Nebula. I have seen the Veil with my 10x50 binoculars from a dark sky site but I have never even seen the Flame Nebula, NGC 2024, which is much brighter than IC434, with binoculars. From a dark site in the mountains of western NC I have seen the Horse Head, B33, with my unfiltered 4-inch TV102 refractor. IC434 was very dim but visible and the HH was only seen with averted vision but it was plainly there to be seen in the 4-inch refractor.

Thomas, Phil Harrington last year here on CN's gave an account of having seen the HH with filtered binoculars at the Winter Star Party in FL. Check out last years Binocular Universe article on Orion. He has also shared that story in one of his new books, the Cosmic Challenge.


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BillFerris
Post Laureate
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Reged: 07/17/04

Loc: Flagstaff, Arizona, USA
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5533871 - 11/22/12 12:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The brightness of IC434 is similar to that of the Veil.




I beg to differ. It must be considerably fainter. The Veil (eastern half) is easy as pie in any of my telescopes, even unfiltered, but I've never seen a hint of IC 434, despite looking for it on some very good nights in the past.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark




Setting aside specific surface brightness data, my experience is that the Veil Nebula us much easier to detect than IC 434. The eastern portion of the Veil (NGC 6992) appears as an obvious misty patch through unfiltered 10x50 binoculars. I've never made an unfiltered binocular detection of IC 434. It appeared very subtle in my old 10 inch Newtonian and is consistently visible in my 18 inch Obsession. On one very good night, I did observe IC 434 and the Horsehead (B33) in a friend's unfiltered 6 inch Newtonian. The experience suggested B33 would have been discernible in an unfiltered 4 inch refractor.

A 10 inch aperture is definitely up to the task of revealing the IC 434, B33 complex. The keys are sky darkness and transparency. The nearby Flame Nebula (NGC 2024) should appear obvious and bright. If NGC 2023, the island of nebulosity surrounding 7.8 magnitude HD 37903 is a fairly easy detection, conditions should be right for a view of the Horesehead.

Bill in Flag


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IVM
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 01/07/08

Loc: Western New York
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: BillFerris]
      #5533997 - 11/22/12 01:54 PM

I'd say IC 434 with h-beta in brightness is like Pickering's Wisp (part of the Veil broadly defined) unfiltered. Both show a little of their marvelous internal structure with 16".

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Dave MitskyModerator
Postmaster
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Reged: 04/08/02

Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: IVM]
      #5534104 - 11/22/12 03:39 PM

I've seen B33 once through my H-beta filtered 8" f/6 Starsplitter Tube Dob equipped with a Zambuto mirror. It was a very difficult observation. The Horsehead Nebula has been a bit easier target through my filtered 10" f/4.7 Sky-Watcher Collapsible Dob.

I haven't been successful in detecting B33 with my 101mm f/5.4 Tele Vue refractor.

Conditions certainly play a crucial role in a successful sighting. On several occasions, when the transparency and seeing were excellent, I've been able to view the Horsehead without using a filter through 14.5" and larger premium Dobs from very dark sites.

B33 was fairly easy to detect through filtered 17.5 and 22" Dobs from a magnitude 6.3 dark site last Friday.

Dave Mitsky


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tcmzodiac
professor emeritus


Reged: 11/11/11

Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Dave Mitsky]
      #5534111 - 11/22/12 03:45 PM

Thanks everyone and...Happy Thanksgiving!
It certainly is good to read these reports. Good to know that my UHC may be of help.Again, thanks for the encouragement.The second DSO that my scope ever put up was the Veil. Id love for the HH to be early in the list too!


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Sarkikos
Postmaster
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Reged: 12/18/07

Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5534188 - 11/22/12 04:38 PM

Thomas,

Quote:

Quote:

The brightness of IC434 is similar to that of the Veil.




I beg to differ. It must be considerably fainter. The Veil (eastern half) is easy as pie in any of my telescopes, even unfiltered, but I've never seen a hint of IC 434, despite looking for it on some very good nights in the past.




What you say matches my experience. I've seen all three major parts of the Veil, many times in many scopes - 80mm to 300mm - at my yellow zone site. Not difficult at all. I've tried several times to see IC 434 and B33 here at the same site and have failed ... or have given up after trying for awhile, which amounts to the same thing. I have heard that if you can't see IC 434, don't try for B33. Makes sense to me.

In the meantime I've observed about 900 other faint and fuzzy objects at the same site.

I'd rather spend an hour or so observing a dozen other objects I've never seen before than trying once again to see this one object I've never seen before. Eh... Maybe one day.


Mike


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Astrojensen
Post Laureate
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5534250 - 11/22/12 05:38 PM

Quote:

I have heard that if you can't see IC 434, don't try for B33. Makes sense to me.




Uh, yeah, that makes sense... A lot of it, actually.




Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Sarkikos
Postmaster
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Reged: 12/18/07

Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5534387 - 11/22/12 08:04 PM

So actually the objective should be to see IC 434 ... and then try to see a notch along its eastern edge. That notch might be B33.

It's on my list, but so are many other objects.

Mike


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Bill Weir
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 06/01/04

Loc: Metchosin (Victoria), Canada
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5534664 - 11/23/12 12:16 AM

Carol's sketch with that lovely reference triangle is perfect as a guide in looking for this elusive dark nebula. That little angled trio of stars on its western point (left) are always what I show people as a guide in looking for B33. The faintest of them points right at the snout. You can still see these stars even with a NBP, H-Beta or Ultra Block in place. I suggest to people to forget about everything at first and only focus on those stars and where they are pointing. Often that's all it takes to get people to see B33. You have to be looking exactly in the right spot. For a best view it also requires observing it with an eyepiece that gives you an appropriate exit pupil to work with an H-Beta filter. This is from 4-7mm. Match all of this and I've found seeing B33 isn't as difficult as people think. I've had total newbies seeing it from not all that perfect conditions.

Story time;

In early September I was at a star party at a fairly nice location. Late in the night I wandered over to someone I'd met earlier to look through his 16" Starmaster. A bunch of them were looking at the "Flame" as Orion had finally risen above a ridge to the east. I asked if they minded if I had a look for the Horse Head. They all said sure as most had never seen it. Because I knew where to look although it was faint I could clearly make out the dark notch in the faint band of IC 434. Seeing that the eyepiece was a 13 Ethos I asked if anyone had a 1.25 H Beta. "No". So, "I'll be right back" and wandered off to get mine. With the H Beta in place B33 was then much easier to see and showing them those pointer stars all there could make it out although most were having difficulty. Then I started to think about the scope we were using. "What's the focal ratio?" "4.5" So that meant the exit pupil was only about 3mm. "Anyone got a 25-30mm 1.25" eyepiece?" "No" "I'll be right back." and went and got my 30 mm Orion Ultrascopic and plopped that along with the H Beta into the focuser. The change was remarkable. IC 434 had a hard N-S straight edge to the east side and the western edge feathered off to the west. Etched into the eastern edge like a chess piece was the Horse Head completeing the photographic view. My job there was done. For the rest of the time I was at that star party, every time I ran into that scope owner he thanked me for giving him the most memorable view he'd ever had with his scope.

This is not an object that needs magnification as much as it needs appropriate exit pupil. With my little ED 80 refractor from my reasonably dark backyard I've detected it on a perfect winters night.

Bill


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Sarkikos
Postmaster
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Reged: 12/18/07

Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Bill Weir]
      #5534698 - 11/23/12 01:02 AM

The bottom line is: If you can't see IC 434, you won't see B33.

Mike


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bassplayer142
professor emeritus


Reged: 10/03/11

Loc: Michigan
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5534772 - 11/23/12 02:22 AM

Thanks carol for the amazing sketch. I can't wait to give this a go with a near identical setup at home. Likely a tad more light polluted but will give a great representation.

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JayinUT
I'm not Sleepy
*****

Reged: 09/19/08

Loc: Utah
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. [Re: bassplayer142]
      #5534813 - 11/23/12 03:21 AM

Stephen Waldee has an excellent discussion on sketching the horse head located Here. a copy of and explanation of my observation using my XT10 is there from a few years ago. Stephen has returned me to focusing on the details more.

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Achernar
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Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: tcmzodiac]
      #5534978 - 11/23/12 08:05 AM

I have seen it through a 10-inch, but it's faint and very indistinct even with a H-beta filter. It's easier to see with my 15-inch, but unless skies are superbly dark, it's still indistinct and take real effort to make out the horsehead shape. It's much, much easier with a 15 or l8-inch telescope even from a very dark area. One more thing, if the nearby nebula NGC-2024 of Flame Nebula is hard or impossible to see, you can be sure you will not be able to see IC-434 and B-33 that night.

Taras


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ensign
professor emeritus


Reged: 12/16/08

Loc: Southwestern Ontario
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Achernar]
      #5535240 - 11/23/12 10:55 AM

I'll throw my $.02 in: having searched for the HH using a 10", I finally did manage to _detect_ it with averted vision on a very clear night under a very dark sky using an Orion H Beta filter and a Nagler type 4 17mm. I think the 3.6 mm exit pupil may have helped.

Does anyone have thoughts on an ideal exit pupil for viewing the Horsehead?


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Sarkikos
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Reged: 12/18/07

Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Achernar]
      #5535245 - 11/23/12 10:57 AM

Taras,

I routinely see the Flame Nebula (2024) from my yellow zone site. I'd say it's about as easy as seeing all three sections of the Veil, maybe even a little easier. The real test for the possibility of seeing B33 is IC 434.

But yes, I'd say that if you can't see the Flame, you definitely won't see IC 434 and B33. Give it up and focus on other objects that make more sense for that night.

Personally, I have very limited time at my dark site - such as it is - and I don't won't to waste time looking for something that I have zero chance of seeing on a particular night.

Mike


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Sarkikos
Postmaster
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Reged: 12/18/07

Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5535250 - 11/23/12 10:59 AM

Mike (ensign),

Barbara Wilson's link from the second post in this thread will give you a good idea of what you need.

Mike


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Dave MitskyModerator
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Reged: 04/08/02

Loc: PA, USA, Planet Earth
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5535338 - 11/23/12 11:56 AM

A 5mm exit pupil, la Barbara Wilson's article, really seems to enhance views of B33, in my experience. Using an ultra-widefield eyepiece is probably not the best choice in this case.

Dave Mitsky


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Sarkikos
Postmaster
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Reged: 12/18/07

Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: Dave Mitsky]
      #5535424 - 11/23/12 12:45 PM

For an f/5 scope, a 25mm eyepiece should be about right. I've actually setup a turret focuser with a 25mm UO Ortho, 25mm Kellner and 25mm Sterling Plossl in order to see the Horsehead with my 10" f/4.8 Dob. Still no go. Apparently what's needed is a dark site on an exceptionally transparent night, exceedingly well dark-adapted eyes and plenty of patience. I've seen many, many very faint things at my yellow zone site,so I know how to ferret out the difficult stuff, but so far not B33. I suppose if I travel the 600 miles to my nearest blue/black site, it would be much easier ... except for the time, gas money and effort involved.

Mike


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Bill Weir
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 06/01/04

Loc: Metchosin (Victoria), Canada
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: ensign]
      #5535451 - 11/23/12 12:57 PM

Quote:

Does anyone have thoughts on an ideal exit pupil for viewing the Horsehead?




I already mentioned it in my response but will link to the Lumicon page that halfway down shows the suggestions of exit pupils for their filters.
http://www.lumicon.com/astronomy-accessories.php?cid=1&cn=Filters

Required exit pupil is somewhat dependant on how dark the location is.

I've seen B33 many times from a location where the SQM reading only gets to 21 to 21.31, ie my back yard.

Bill


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Carol L

*****

Reged: 07/05/04

Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
Re: Bound and determined : Horsehead thru a ten..BUT.. new [Re: bassplayer142]
      #5535583 - 11/23/12 02:01 PM

Quote:

Thanks carol for the amazing sketch. I can't wait to give this a go with a near identical setup at home. Likely a tad more light polluted but will give a great representation.




You're welcome!

BTW, if your ground is snow-covered when you get a chance at the Horse Head, the reflected stray light can be bothersome - be sure to shield it from your eyes with a dark cloth or something similar. It also helps to make sure the eyepiece is kept fog free - put it in an inside pocket to warm it up, or use an anti-dew strip if you've got one.

Good Luck!!


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