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Kokatha man
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Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM cam-150%!
      #5550173 - 12/02/12 11:28 AM Attachment (253 downloads)

Hi again - I've had cloudy weather the last 2 nights so I sat down and did a check through the rgb sets and found at least 2 so far that are better (imho) than the one I posted in my other current thread...

I intend re-processing all the "good 'uns" when I get back home because this (uncalibrated) laptop is quite deficient re processing but I was impressed by a fairly quick processing of this avi, it being 14 minutes after the aforementioned thread's image...and about 40 minutes before Jupiter's culmination.

I say "quick" because I just took the .fits files straight out of Registax and did an rgb combine without any prior deconvolution on each channel beforehand (my usual, preferred practice) and then applied decon to the RGB after combining...

One reason for making this a seperate thread was to give anyone interested some rough guidelines for camera settings on the ASI120MM mono camera: capture and processing are as follows:

Used 512X400 resolution in FireCapture @ 80fps capturing each channel for 60 seconds: 4729 frames captured in each of R,G & B.

Gamma = "50"
Gain R=53, G=53, B=65
Histograms each 81/82%
Exposure = 12.5mS

28 MAPs in AS!2 (26 around disk and one each for GRS and Junior) with 1.5X drizzle, noise robusity 4 and 3000 frames selected out of a smidgen under 4800 frames total in each channel (approximately 52% - 55% of the best frame's quality.)

12 iterations or 0.8 cw Maximum Entropy in AstraImage after rgb combine.....taken as .tif into CS3 and gamma dropped to 0.86, blue levels adjustment to 0.92 on middle slider and a curves adjustment of 195/195 followed by a single application of "Dust & Scratches" which I faded to 28% and then image reduction to 80% for the 120% image, and another on top of this to 85% for the capture scale image.....canvass resized and text added.....finally saved each as .psd's and .png24's.

Down the track a proper full reprocessing and a WinJupos compilation of this and the 2 rgb sets before it!

Edited by Kokatha man (12/02/12 11:09 PM)


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Kokatha man
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5550175 - 12/02/12 11:30 AM Attachment (93 downloads)

.....and the capture scale image.

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Kokatha man
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5550183 - 12/02/12 11:33 AM

.....what I particularly like about this image is that there is an amount of fine detail in the GRS "wake" that was much less defined in the previous rgb capture I posted.

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martus
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5550226 - 12/02/12 12:00 PM

God, it's beautiful, great Darryl!

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martus


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BKBrown
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5550252 - 12/02/12 12:20 PM

Great results Darryl Looks like that camera can deliver the goods without too much jumping through hoops...how do you think it stacks up for image quality and ease of use against the current run of x618 cams?

Clear Skies,
Brian


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Rankinstudio
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: BKBrown]
      #5550297 - 12/02/12 12:51 PM

Any idea what the price range on this camera is? Thanks

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lcd1080
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Rankinstudio]
      #5550323 - 12/02/12 01:12 PM

Oh my gosh Darryl you didn't need to be in the Northern hemisphere after all, all you needed was that camera and a little time to sort through your data. The results are spectacular for 48.6 degrees elevation.

Pete


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Mick Hyde
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: lcd1080]
      #5550800 - 12/02/12 06:28 PM

Lovely resolution.

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Kokatha man
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Mick Hyde]
      #5550895 - 12/02/12 07:36 PM

Thank you Martus, Brian, David Pete and Mick!

Brian - Sam got me interested when he emailed me a few months back with some pretty telling comparisons between the ASI120MM & DMK618.....and since then it was a marathon effort between Sam, Torsten myself and Emil to get the capture software working smoothly - very mainly due to the efforts of Torsten for FireCapture builds, & Sam for driver improvements!

I gave some pointers elsewhere to what I'd be asking about any new camera purchase - suffice to say I don't think my PGR Flea3 is going to see too much action for now and when Saturn is sufficiently high (very soon!)

David - the ASI120MM sells for a smidgin under $300...!!

I didn't include the R6 settings I used for this process above.....here is the complete rundown of that processing - but of course all images folks take have to be treated individually!!!

I used 512X400 resolution in FireCapture @ 80fps capturing each channel for 60 seconds: 4729 frames captured in each of R,G & B.

Gamma = "50"
Gain R=53, G=53, B=65
Histograms each 81/82%
Exposure = 12.5mS

28 MAPs in AS!2.....26 across the disk of Jove (9, sized 200 & 17 sized 140) and one each for GRS (70) and Junior (40) with 1.5X drizzle, Quality Estimator "Gradient" and noise robusity 4, "Normalize Stack" value 55%.....3000 frames selected out of 4729 frames total in each channel ( this represents including frames down to 52% - 55% of the best frame's quality.)

The resulting .png file dropped into Registax6 and a Histogram stretch range 0-235 with default "smoothness" value.

Wavelets linked and set @ "100" for #1 with a Denoise vale of 0.05 & Sharpen = 0.11.....#2 slider also "100" with Denoise = 0.35 & Sharpen left at the default value "0.10"

12 iterations or 0.8 cw Maximum Entropy in AstraImage after rgb combine.....taken as .tif into CS3 and gamma dropped to 0.86, blue levels adjustment to 0.92 on middle slider and a curves adjustment of 195/195 followed by a single application of "Dust & Scratches" which I faded to 28% and then image reduction to 80% for the 120% image, and another on top of this to 85% for the capture scale image.....canvass resized and text added.....finally saved each as .psd's and .png24's.


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5550933 - 12/02/12 07:55 PM

Wow! Looks like a N hemi image Darryl! Thats it - you'll be spoiled now until Saturn!

Glenn


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Kokatha man
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: DesertRat]
      #5551242 - 12/02/12 11:08 PM Attachment (37 downloads)

Quote:

Wow! Looks like a N hemi image Darryl! Thats it - you'll be spoiled now until Saturn!
Glenn




Heh-hee Glenn, Saturn's already up 1.5 hours before the Sun..!

Here's a more orthodox processing for me - decon on each channel before rgb combine in AstraImage.....still on the laptop.....I'll probably wait to do a WinJupos job.


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Kokatha man
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5551256 - 12/02/12 11:15 PM Attachment (44 downloads)

.....or a more "sedate" 120% of capture scale rendition: more befitting of me since I entered my 64th year yesterday!!!

Edited by Kokatha man (12/02/12 11:16 PM)


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joelimite
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5551324 - 12/03/12 12:13 AM

Stunning capture, Kokatha Man! Nicely processed, too!

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wenjha
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: joelimite]
      #5551469 - 12/03/12 03:29 AM

Very nice!
150% resize supprised us!


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Kokatha man
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: wenjha]
      #5551533 - 12/03/12 05:25 AM Attachment (54 downloads)

Thanks Joel & Sam - there's still more to be squeezed out of these images as I'm finding out right now in a repro with a slightly different approach (one of the beauties of great data! ) and that's not even thinking about a WinJupos compilation!

Here are the individual channels from this particular RGB image.....as you know Sam, your cameras are especially sensitive in the green spectrum but I don't think the blue channel capabilities are to be sneezed at - and although iR742nM is definitely not at the top of the QE responses I have captured some very nice iR742nM images regardless..!


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martus
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5551542 - 12/03/12 05:54 AM

These fine details are incredible, fantastic images RGB channels ! I like it very much! excellent work Darryl!!

Regards,
martus


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tjensen
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: martus]
      #5551608 - 12/03/12 07:38 AM

Amazing images. What frame rates are you using? How do you find the sensitivity of the CMOS camera compared to the Flea3?

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Kokatha man
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: tjensen]
      #5551753 - 12/03/12 10:00 AM

Thank you Martus and Tim.....Tim, 9 posts above I've articulated the "full monty" of processing for this rgb, although the supersized 150% image and the 120% one below it were done the more conventional way with deconvolution applied to each channel before rgb combining in AstraImage.

Whilst preparing the individual channels for the BAA and this thread I happened upon another possibility to draw out more from the image without any compromises...and I want to finish that to see if it lives up to expectations...

I wish I could purchase a cloud filter.....just thrown in the towel waiting for a break, even though intermittently we could see that Jove was revealing some mighty fine details tonight!!!

As to the cameras, I haven't done anything remotely objective re comparing them.....but my gut feeling had me opting for the ASI120MM for all imaging opportunities this week - and I think it paid off..!

Saturn in a few weeks time should give me much more opportunity to properly compare the two cameras.....


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5551993 - 12/03/12 12:45 PM

Mo, hat's off to you on this beauty! Besides the super high quality, you collected the data at interesting settings, with a rather bright histogram 81-82% but a low gamma 50. I am not sure is 50 means 50% of 1.00 or something else, but the combination of the 2 are impressive. Thanks for posting the images and the method. I saved it and will try it on my new data I get tonight. Excellent work

Regards,
Steve


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Kokatha man
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: sfugardi]
      #5552648 - 12/03/12 07:23 PM

Quote:

Mo, hat's off to you on this beauty! Besides the super high quality, you collected the data at interesting settings, with a rather bright histogram 81-82% but a low gamma 50. I am not sure is 50 means 50% of 1.00 or something else, but the combination of the 2 are impressive. Thanks for posting the images and the method. I saved it and will try it on my new data I get tonight. Excellent work

Regards,
Steve




Thanks Steve - despite the mostly cloud-affected weather down here I don't feel too bad after collecting these captures...probably a minor miracle for Oz this apparition tbh...

I've shot at around 80% histo's for quite awhile nowadays, anything much more and burnout becomes an issue but going lower can also result in saturation/vibrancy issues for me where you get drab colouration with washed-out appearances.....which I definitely want to avoid because it's well-nigh imposible to correct properly in post-processing - just tipping 80% on the histo seems to achieve a nice balance on these issues...

"Gamma = 50" is a specific ASI120MM/FireCapture value that equates to the conventional "Gamma = 1" or "linearity" which is a standard setting for gamma during capture.....some folks advocate higher gamma settings during capture and others think that is a definite "no-no" - I allways presumed "Default" gamma using the Flea3 was "linearity" but I may be wrong there...

Good luck for tonight's imaging session!


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edsplace
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5552731 - 12/03/12 08:10 PM

I now have my camera... Super fast shipping Sam. Kudos!

So I am using fire capture and find that using the setting you gave I get about 40fps, I get a frame rate suspiciously close to 1/2 the advertised frame rate on nearly every setting. This leads me to wonder if the problem lies between the chair and the keyboard. I have checked the config file and made changes to get full resolution ect. I keep thinking I must be missing something. I am using USB2 is that a problem>

Besides this frame rate thing this camera sure seems like the deal on the market right now. I have put it through some paces indoors, of course 1/4 mile visibility and 200' overcast clouds predicted for the next few days, and can't seem to drum up any issues with the rolling shutter. All I can find is a high resolution, fairly low noise, very light sensitive camera.


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Kokatha man
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: edsplace]
      #5552767 - 12/03/12 08:30 PM

Quote:

I now have my camera... Super fast shipping Sam. Kudos!

So I am using fire capture and find that using the setting you gave I get about 40fps, I get a frame rate suspiciously close to 1/2 the advertised frame rate on nearly every setting. This leads me to wonder if the problem lies between the chair and the keyboard. I have checked the config file and made changes to get full resolution ect. I keep thinking I must be missing something. I am using USB2 is that a problem>

Besides this frame rate thing this camera sure seems like the deal on the market right now. I have put it through some paces indoors, of course 1/4 mile visibility and 200' overcast clouds predicted for the next few days, and can't seem to drum up any issues with the rolling shutter. All I can find is a high resolution, fairly low noise, very light sensitive camera.




Ed - I use Torsten's "Build #32" of the beta2.2 version website.....I see on that page of his (beta 2.2) under "Changes" that he lists:

•improved support for ASI cameras (build #29)

but that doesn't seem right/up to date (we went past that to Build #32) so I think you'd best email him to find out the score..!

He gets mountains of emails constantly so it may take awhile (and sometimes emails bounce back to you as "undeliverable") so perhaps contact Sam also who might be able to expedite things for you from his end.

Let us know if there are any problems - I've given some settings up above in this thread.....when you get the right version of FireCapture, to change resolutions and framerates click the ROI radio button, type in the specific resolution values (from the list) and then click the arrow to the right hand side of the values you have typed.....the screensize will then change to what you want and you then change the exposure.....there are actually several exposure ranges but the default is 5 - 30mSeconds which is all we ever use - the up & down arrow keys are better to use than the slider itself and allows more precise increments...

I will put together a "User's Manual" pretty soon but just post or PM me if you get stuck in any ways..!


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edsplace
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5552782 - 12/03/12 08:37 PM

I seem to be using 2.2 beta (build #35) - maybe coding issue.

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Kokatha man
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: edsplace]
      #5552795 - 12/03/12 08:46 PM Attachment (41 downloads)

.....sorry Ed - I meant to also add that there is an icon (shown in screenshot image here) that if you click on brings up a little window.....you should click on the "ROI Misc" tab up the top of that (middle one) and make sure "Hi speed" is ticked.

Don't play with any other settings there...


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Kokatha man
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5552798 - 12/03/12 08:47 PM Attachment (31 downloads)

.....and the window itself.

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edsplace
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5552862 - 12/03/12 09:19 PM

Yeah, I was just logging it to confirm my previous hypothesis about where the problem lie is now a theory. I found the problem myself, and can confirm you are correct! I see 65FPS. I am excited, hope to capture an image soon.

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Kokatha man
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: edsplace]
      #5553118 - 12/03/12 11:44 PM

Quote:

Yeah, I was just logging it to confirm my previous hypothesis about where the problem lie is now a theory. I found the problem myself, and can confirm you are correct! I see 65FPS. I am excited, hope to capture an image soon.




Happy imaging - I put some values I used for these images' captures in this thread that you might like to work from.....what you will find is that the ASI120MM's small pixel size (3.75uM) creates a much greater image scale (something like 150% compared to a Flea3 etc..)

For the C14 I had to make a special adaptor (it is the part that that is "missing" in Sam's avatar where he displays this camera - the "plug" that holds the nosepiece.)

That way I could get my TeleVue 2X barlow right up against the sensor almost and reduce the amplification down to about 1.25X.....newtonians might be somewhat different there.


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edsplace
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5553187 - 12/04/12 12:31 AM Attachment (61 downloads)

The camera I received came with a 1.25" adapter. I removed that "plug" using a hammer and screwdriver since I don't have a spanner tool. After that plug was removed any standard "C to 1.25" adapter should work. I imaged with a C11 tonight between clouds and in 20MPH winds... needless to say nothing even usable. I did come up with a barlow strategy. I used the element off 2"-2X barlow, then screwed that element into a 2"-1.25" adapter, I then put the filter wheel in that adapter with the camera in the filter wheel. It seemed to produce about an F20 size image from my experience.

On a side note a friend of mine a bit further south who ordered his ASI120mm camera when I ordered mine, who also owns a CPC1100 sent me some RGB stacks he acquired tonight, the seeing was great. I am very familiar with his equipment and imaging strategies. Below is the image I was able to produce using his data. Okay... without a doubt this camera is going to be an attractive upgrade/entry point product for many. 70fps in the red band down to around 50fps in the blue band, moderate gain for all channels. I noticed the color sensitivity seems much flatter than the Sony ICX618 chip. The rolling shutter was not an issue, there was no smearing even in the 20mph winds with the planet bouncing all over the place, no artifacts noticed in either of our first sets of images. The smaller pixel producing a larger image scale does allow you to image without a barlow if using a larger SCT (the image below was taken with a barlow.) Light weight is great for newtonian and dobsonian balance. I could just keep going.

Thank you Sam! and also thank you Kokatha for your assistance in getting my camera up and running quickly.

Edited by edsplace (12/04/12 12:33 AM)


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wenjha
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: edsplace]
      #5553260 - 12/04/12 02:26 AM

That's great first-light of jupter!thanks ED and Jule

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Kokatha man
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: edsplace]
      #5553263 - 12/04/12 02:34 AM

Quote:

The camera I received came with a 1.25" adapter. I removed that "plug" using a hammer and screwdriver since I don't have a spanner tool. After that plug was removed any standard "C to 1.25" adapter should work. I imaged with a C11 tonight between clouds and in 20MPH winds... needless to say nothing even usable. I did come up with a barlow strategy. I used the element off 2"-2X barlow, then screwed that element into a 2"-1.25" adapter, I then put the filter wheel in that adapter with the camera in the filter wheel. It seemed to produce about an F20 size image from my experience.

On a side note a friend of mine a bit further south who ordered his ASI120mm camera when I ordered mine, who also owns a CPC1100 sent me some RGB stacks he acquired tonight, the seeing was great. I am very familiar with his equipment and imaging strategies. Below is the image I was able to produce using his data. Okay... without a doubt this camera is going to be an attractive upgrade/entry point product for many. 70fps in the red band down to around 50fps in the blue band, moderate gain for all channels. I noticed the color sensitivity seems much flatter than the Sony ICX618 chip. The rolling shutter was not an issue, there was no smearing even in the 20mph winds with the planet bouncing all over the place, no artifacts noticed in either of our first sets of images. The smaller pixel producing a larger image scale does allow you to image without a barlow if using a larger SCT (the image below was taken with a barlow.) Light weight is great for newtonian and dobsonian balance. I could just keep going.

Thank you Sam! and also thank you Kokatha for your assistance in getting my camera up and running quickly.




Crikey Ed - a hammer and screwdriver..!?!

But I'm a bit mystified as to what you've done: that "plug" (my term btw) is the 40mm black anodized circular fitting (like a vey thick washer) that has a 40mm thread (M40) around its outside edge and a central threaded hole that already holds an 1&1/4" nosepiece as standard...in Sam's avatar both the plug & nosepiece are missing so that you can actually see the sensor...but you're correct, M40 is also known as "C" type which is a standard astro fitting.

I found that using it as it came meant the distance from the back of the barlow to the sensor gave too much amplification, even just unscrewing the barlow and only using the lens element to get things a bit closer to each other - so I did what I described getting a friend to lathe an adaptor.

Also, I run all the channels at the exact same framerate if I use the same exposures for each.....green is just as sensitive (actually a bit more) than red and gain is the only thing needed to be lifted for blue (like just about any mono cam.)

I'll put my "cheat sheet" values in this post - I refer to it when I change resolutions to know quickly what exposures I must set...

But it sure looks like your mate took some nice captures - and you've also done a very nice job of processing them Ed - congratulations to you both!

MONO COLOUR
RES EXP FPS EXP FPS
1280x960 30 30
1280x720 25 40
1280x600 22 45
1280x400 16.2 60
1024x768 12.5 40
1024x600 19.2 55
1024x400 12.5 80
800x800 25 40
800x640 20 50
800x512 16.3 60
800x400 12.5 80
800x320 10 100
640x560 16.2 60
640x480 14 70 30 32
512x440 13.7 74
512x400 12.5 80 25 40
480x320 10 100
320x240 7.6 130


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edsplace
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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5553717 - 12/04/12 10:37 AM Attachment (59 downloads)

I don't want to discourage others about considering this camera because of the "plug" and barlow ect. So I made the graphic below to clarify how I set my camera up to be telescope ready. It's not difficult and required only 5 minuets time. I'll clarify the hammer and screw driver statement :-) At time I say fun thing for a reaction, that was one of them. I inserted a screw that fit tightly in one of the holes designed for the spanner tool, then I placed a flat head screwdrivers bit flush against the "plug" while resting on the screw, a gentle tap on the screwdrivers handle with a rubber mallet was enough to break the "plug" free, after that I used the screw as a tool to back the "plug" out of the camera body. I learned this trick years about working with optics and have yet to break anything.

Jule and I have "twin" setup. CPC1100's, same diagonal, same filter wheel, same filters, same cameras, same software. It's a little freaky and Keck twin-ish. When imaging often we are on the phone togther while imaging the same object, we are able to problem solve imaging issues together. This has worked great over the years.
Last night in my poor seeing I used your exposure tactic of increase the gain and keeping the exposure time at the lowest possible setting. I was hoping that in would get a few moments of clarity during this horrible seeing, and a quick exposure time would be the best way to take capture these. Unfortunately I had both low level and high level atmosphere turbulence and nothing usable was acquired. Jule had some of the best seeing every, claiming at one point that his video was better then processed images produced with the DMK21. I am fairly sure this was result a combination of the ASI120mm camera and seeing. Anyway with the good seeing the idea of low gain capture to keep noise to the lowest possible levels and increasing the exposure time while taking a small hit in frame rate was the best way to take advantage of these superb conditions. This is an advantage to the ZWO Design camera over TIS cameras. The variable frame rate allows you to increase exposure time without sacrificing much in frame rate. With TIS camera you may have to step down from 60FPS to 30FPS if you choose to increase exposure time while the the ZWO if was only a 15FPS hit. Just another advatage to this camera.

Edited by edsplace (12/04/12 11:42 AM)


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: edsplace]
      #5553799 - 12/04/12 11:29 AM

Weird, I could easily unscrew the plug and and lens in one go. Didn't even know there was a plug there, it acts like one single unit.

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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: MvZ]
      #5554432 - 12/04/12 06:44 PM

Quote:

Weird, I could easily unscrew the plug and and lens in one go. Didn't even know there was a plug there, it acts like one single unit.




Heh-hee Emil - I hope you realise that the nosepiece (the 4th of Ed's piks where he has his thumb on it) also unscrews from that "plug."

Actually it's easy to think that these parts are just one piece (lens & plug, n/piece & plug) but they're not.....the problem is, although they are "standard" threads Sam has had made for the cameras, "standard" isn't something a lot of AA accessories adhere to in many cases..!

You can easily use 1&1/4" GSO extension tubes etc that screw into the n/piece internal thread (or either plug's central thread) - the problem arises when you want to get the barlow closer to the sensor.....and that's not Sam or the camera's fault but rather the fact that there are so many non-standardised accessories going around!

You make a very good point with your comment I've quoted below Ed, one I've commented on myself but haven't articulated it as fully as in your quote:

Anyway with the good seeing the idea of low gain capture to keep noise to the lowest possible levels and increasing the exposure time while taking a small hit in frame rate was the best way to take advantage of these superb conditions. This is an advantage to the ZWO Design camera over TIS cameras. The variable frame rate allows you to increase exposure time without sacrificing much in frame rate. With TIS camera you may have to step down from 60FPS to 30FPS if you choose to increase exposure time while the the ZWO if was only a 15FPS hit. Just another advatage to this camera

Clear skies and happy imaging..!


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5554453 - 12/04/12 06:57 PM

I didn't realize that Darryl. So far I have had no reason to 'grap a screwdriver and a hammer' and split these 'atoms'.

But next time I'll try and see if I can break them. Just because I can. Now I'm curious


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: MvZ]
      #5554476 - 12/04/12 07:15 PM

.....the n/piece and its' plug really do look like one piece machining Emil and your impression was quite understandable.....perhaps I should comment (as a pro artist/designer) that Sam's Cams are very flash/sophisticated looking units..!

Screwing these on and off runs the risk of getting dust on the sensor if done in dubious conditions - I've had to clean the sensor twice (no big deal) but I'd recommend you wash your sledge hammer and monkey-wrench first..!


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5554791 - 12/04/12 10:43 PM

So it comes with the eyepiece adapter and a lens?

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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Rankinstudio]
      #5554800 - 12/04/12 10:49 PM

Mine came with a wide angle lens, 1.25" telescope adapter, ~6' USB cable, and IR filter. The camera itself is also designed to fit into a 2" barrel without an adapter.

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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: edsplace]
      #5554810 - 12/04/12 11:00 PM

Thanks

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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: edsplace]
      #5554832 - 12/04/12 11:13 PM Attachment (37 downloads)

Hi Ed
May I use the picture in my websie?
I think its a good instruction for all users.
the "plug" actually is a universal CS lens adapter.
so you can use any CS lens to works with ASI camera.
I am going to use this setup(5mm-50mm lens) to capture meteor


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: wenjha]
      #5554847 - 12/04/12 11:21 PM Attachment (47 downloads)

here is a test of Orion at the focal length of 5mm
exposure 100ms gain 100 resized to half

Edited by wenjha (12/04/12 11:23 PM)


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: wenjha]
      #5554849 - 12/04/12 11:23 PM

Yes Sam feel free to use that image. I notices that was a CS adapter, but the threads it fits into are a C adapter. So when you get this camera is has fittings for C,CS,1.25" and 2"... That's Brilliant!

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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: wenjha]
      #5554851 - 12/04/12 11:25 PM Attachment (65 downloads)

here is a test of M42 area at the focal length of 50mm
exposure 100ms gain 100 resized to half


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: edsplace]
      #5554854 - 12/04/12 11:27 PM

Quote:

Yes Sam feel free to use that image. I notices that was a CS adapter, but the threads it fits into are a C adapter. So when you get this camera is has fittings for C,CS,1.25" and 2"... That's Brilliant!



Thanks Ed
Yes,its a multi function camera


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: edsplace]
      #5554861 - 12/04/12 11:35 PM

Quote:

The camera itself is also designed to fit into a 2" barrel without an adapter.




That joke's on me Ed after my comments to Emil..!

I thought I'd canvassed all the permutations with camera fittings but that simple observation/utilisation escaped me - good one Ed!!!

I used a 2" & 1.6X Antares barlow (nice units) with the Flea3 and although I could employ it as you describe to go from my current 1.25X to about 1.6X, the same reasons I ditched the Antares would still be valid.....I didn't want a heavy barlow on the end of the filter wheel: my Televue lens element is after the EFW in the various configurations I can employ it as but its' weight is negligible.....

And folks might like to know that the ASI120MM is also proving itself a very amazing Deep Sky camera as well - talk about versatility..!


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5554863 - 12/04/12 11:38 PM

Even more brillant - thanks for that extra info Sam..!!!

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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5555112 - 12/05/12 04:49 AM

ought to be a great Lunar cam too !- I'm sold

Edited by karlo (12/05/12 04:50 AM)


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: karlo]
      #5555119 - 12/05/12 05:02 AM

don't tell the missus

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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: edsplace]
      #5555149 - 12/05/12 05:53 AM

Quote:

With TIS camera you may have to step down from 60FPS to 30FPS if you choose to increase exposure time while the the ZWO if was only a 15FPS hit. Just another advatage to this camera.



In fact,not exact, ED. 120MM not a 15FPS hit. It respond accurately to exposure time. If it not beyond speed limit. You just need choose the highest speed from menu. And then change exposure time. So you can get speed step by step. For example 20ms(50fps)-21ms(47.6fps)-22ms(45.4fps)-23ms(43.4fps)...


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: ZuoZhao]
      #5555989 - 12/05/12 04:55 PM

Darryl,
You write that the 'plug' or black anodized circular fitting in the ASI120MM is a standard M40 also known as "C" type. The "C" type is 1 inch 32tpi. From Sam's website it shows as a M42x0.75 T2 thread fitting. The older T mount (Praktica type) was a M42x1.

I think it would be possible to have an adapter made, or it may exist already, to adapt a removable 2" barlow nosepiece fitting to that. That would get you close, and if too close you might even add a T2 extension to use at the design magnification.

I've have not considered the effect of working too close to a barlow. It depends on the design of the barlow, but most current designs add a little bit of spherical undercorrection when used far away from design (like 3X for a 2X barlow). You also lose some color correction, which can be negated somewhat by refocussing for each color using a mono camera. Too close would also hurt color correction. A simple negative lens adds overcorrection, but modern barlows are usually 2-4 compound lenses, and a thought experiment is not helping me - best to test - or if you have the energy and time you could model - but manufacturers rarely release their designs!

This brings me to my real question. Does the ASI120MM support hardware (better than software) binning? If it does then one could use a higher power barlow in a more conventional way, imaging with 7.5u pixels at 640x480.

Glenn


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: DesertRat]
      #5556166 - 12/05/12 06:40 PM

Glenn,
From what I see yes.


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: edsplace]
      #5556195 - 12/05/12 06:54 PM

Thanks Ed. I see that to, but to be clear I'm asking is the binning done on the chip or is it done at the driver level? Obviously at the application level binning is simply addition, but you are adding the A/D noise 4 times instead of once (also at the driver level - hence I said software).

Glenn


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: DesertRat]
      #5556288 - 12/05/12 07:46 PM

I have looked on the site of the company who makes the sensor, Aptina, and as I say it looks like it is chip based and not driver. http://www.aptina.com/assets/downloadDocument.do?id=876

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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: DesertRat]
      #5556388 - 12/05/12 08:38 PM

A lot of your last question is really beyond my (very limited) knowledge Glenn but I'll try to answer the binning one anyway!!! - and of course the thread is T2 as per the website and your comments.....that bit about "C" type was obviously "brain-fade" (or worse!) but I didn't have any neurons engaged at the very least!

Just for clarification for others reading some of my drivel, this thread (T2) is the common fitting as in on the back of Atik/Orion EFW's etc and a host of other accesories.....

Binning was something I felt wasn't a "most-wanted" feature when we were testing (probably because personally I have never really had a lot of success using this feature in my planetary captures.....although I appreciate others have an opposite opinion) so in my communications with Sam when we were really kick-starting the whole FireCapture compatibility I was more interested in useable framerates apropos resolution ranges.....aspects such as the comments you've canvassed weren't really thoroughly investigated by me personally at the time but in my defence I also seem to recollect that binning was only ever able to be initiated on 1 or 2 of the resolutions. (I think it was the largest)

Also I was pushing Sam very hard to get a good capture program (FireCapture) working - it just did't work back then - and I assisted by also approaching Torsten in the matter - Sam and I had quite a bit of fun at times trying to understand what each was saying.....although I was constantly reminding him that his English was perfect in comparison to my Mandarin!!!

The whole period was very "full on" and the amount of communicating between Sam, me and Torsten (and then Emil when he could start testing) was enormous.....and although I'm sure once the camera is "out there" more with more users Sam will continue to refine and adjust aspects of the system.....having a dedicated AA'er/planetary imager like Sam as a camera developer and builder is a real luxury imho..!

I'm a bit "under the weather" here atm as we've had a power blackout this morning and the temperatures inside the van have gone ballistic - the Power Supply company say it'll be down for hours so we may have to sit in the car with the aircon running soon! )

So what I say should be taken with a grain of salt but from the updates etc and choices we went for that Sam enabled I would take a stab and guess it is actually "driver" initiated.

Sam should come in on this sometime and he's obviously the person to give the facts.....in the meantime I thought (before I melt!) I'd possibly supply more BS..!


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: DesertRat]
      #5556418 - 12/05/12 09:03 PM

Quote:

Thanks Ed. I see that to, but to be clear I'm asking is the binning done on the chip or is it done at the driver level? Obviously at the application level binning is simply addition, but you are adding the A/D noise 4 times instead of once (also at the driver level - hence I said software).

Glenn




Hi Glenn
you are correct,the binning is implemented in software level.
the chip did has a bin function.
but works not nice. So I didn't use it


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: wenjha]
      #5556993 - 12/06/12 07:42 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Thanks Ed. I see that to, but to be clear I'm asking is the binning done on the chip or is it done at the driver level? Obviously at the application level binning is simply addition, but you are adding the A/D noise 4 times instead of once (also at the driver level - hence I said software).

Glenn




Hi Glenn
you are correct,the binning is implemented in software level.
the chip did has a bin function.
but works not nice. So I didn't use it




.....so it's driver-based as I said: hoped that interpretation was correct (and I remember us discussing these matters Sam ).....that'd give me 1 out of 2 comments right at least !

Edited by Kokatha man (12/06/12 07:43 AM)


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5557062 - 12/06/12 08:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Thanks Ed. I see that to, but to be clear I'm asking is the binning done on the chip or is it done at the driver level? Obviously at the application level binning is simply addition, but you are adding the A/D noise 4 times instead of once (also at the driver level - hence I said software).

Glenn




Hi Glenn
you are correct,the binning is implemented in software level.
the chip did has a bin function.
but works not nice. So I didn't use it




.....so it's driver-based as I said: hoped that interpretation was correct (and I remember us discussing these matters Sam ).....that'd give me 1 out of 2 comments right at least !



yes Darryl you are right. you really have a good memory I belive that you are only 36


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: wenjha]
      #5557403 - 12/06/12 12:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Thanks Ed. I see that to, but to be clear I'm asking is the binning done on the chip or is it done at the driver level? Obviously at the application level binning is simply addition, but you are adding the A/D noise 4 times instead of once (also at the driver level - hence I said software).

Glenn




Hi Glenn
you are correct,the binning is implemented in software level.
the chip did has a bin function.
but works not nice. So I didn't use it




.....so it's driver-based as I said: hoped that interpretation was correct (and I remember us discussing these matters Sam ).....that'd give me 1 out of 2 comments right at least !



yes Darryl you are right. you really have a good memory I belive that you are only 36




- not likely Sam..!!!


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: wenjha]
      #5557511 - 12/06/12 01:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Thanks Ed. I see that to, but to be clear I'm asking is the binning done on the chip or is it done at the driver level? Obviously at the application level binning is simply addition, but you are adding the A/D noise 4 times instead of once (also at the driver level - hence I said software).

Glenn




Hi Glenn
you are correct,the binning is implemented in software level.
the chip did has a bin function.
but works not nice. So I didn't use it




.....so it's driver-based as I said: hoped that interpretation was correct (and I remember us discussing these matters Sam ).....that'd give me 1 out of 2 comments right at least !



yes Darryl you are right. you really have a good memory I belive that you are only 36




Sorry to but in on that conversation. I see what I get for assuming I knew something :-0


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: edsplace]
      #5558159 - 12/06/12 07:44 PM

Ha-ha Ed, after my stupid comment about "C" type and "T2" I can't comment about what anyone else says - and your observations about the various fittings the camera offers opened my eyes about a unit I've had for longer than anyone else outside of China I believe!

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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5558187 - 12/06/12 07:58 PM

Don't feel bad Darryl! I've often felt that the T and C and so on designations open to confusion. Much better to state actual dia and thread in my view. I find vernier calipers handy when I'm going thru a box of unmarked adapters!

Glenn


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: DesertRat]
      #5558557 - 12/07/12 12:35 AM

Quote:

Don't feel bad Darryl! I've often felt that the T and C and so on designations open to confusion. Much better to state actual dia and thread in my view. I find vernier calipers handy when I'm going thru a box of unmarked adapters!
Glenn




Heh-hee Glenn - as I sad in one of Ed's threads, I'll claim part-redemption by presuming his gamma was low re the camera "artefacts" (I haven't really had any problems whatsoever with this camera so far, and I think I'm starting to rack up a few miles on it now. )

The most idiotic thing about that thread-type business is that when I checked the adaptor I'd originally used as my reference it actually has "T2" written on it in (small) white lettering....!


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5560328 - 12/08/12 01:59 AM

Hey Darryl I just finally saw this thread...and great job with the captures! Did you hop on a plane and fly up to the states? haha But yeah I'm glad you got some "keeper" images with Jupiter being so low. That camera looks like a solid performer...and for that price I think we all should get one.

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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Hillbrad]
      #5560683 - 12/08/12 11:02 AM

Quote:

Hey Darryl I just finally saw this thread...and great job with the captures! Did you hop on a plane and fly up to the states? haha But yeah I'm glad you got some "keeper" images with Jupiter being so low. That camera looks like a solid performer...and for that price I think we all should get one.




.....must be why my eyes are about to pack up Brad - jetlag from all that flying..!

Thanks, all the travelling and heat has some balm when you pull some good images.....but we've had a good night tonight and tomorrow night we'll just sleep (for ages!!! ) and head home the next morning...


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5561238 - 12/08/12 05:24 PM

Great thread Darryl -- thanks for all the information on the new cam. I'm just catching up here. I'm wondering about this model you have vs. the ASI130MM, and whether there is a reason to choose your ASI120MM over it. Seems the larger 5.2micron pixels of the 130 may make things a bit more similar in setup for us folks who have been using TIS or PGR cams with 5.6micron pixels. I'm very interested at these prices, and see myself going mono soon!

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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: GreatGigInTheSky]
      #5561377 - 12/08/12 07:23 PM

"Apples & oranges" Jeff - 2 different cameras with different sensors etc.....the ASI120MM is a high QE unit that excells at planetary imaging, but also has the resolution available to make it a very viable Lunar imager - it's sensitivity and low noise has also seen it being used on DSO's - Emil did a stack from a few hundred r. g & b takes of the core of M42 each (I think) about 1 second exposures.....the detail both in resolving stars and also the gas clouds deep within that area had to be seen to be believed: this all sounds a bit like "best thing since sliced bread" spiel but at just under $300 and being so fexible and only usb2, my Flea3 is unlikely to see much action - if any at all - from now on..!

It also has me looking at one of the latest CS Samyang wide angle lenses for some "sky play."

I can see cmos sensor cameras rising to the fore over the next few years and hopefully Sam will continue his practise of keeping abreast with the latest chips available and implementing them into his range, so that another model in a few years might take things even further..!


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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5561386 - 12/08/12 07:28 PM

ps: the smaller-sized pixels are more a problem in long f/l scopes like the C14 - but I have solved that for myself and have a couple of thoughts on making it even more flexible for said scopes...will post on that down the track!

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GreatGigInTheSky
sage


Reged: 02/06/11

Loc: Santa Clara, California
Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5561691 - 12/08/12 11:31 PM

Well I can read the specs, Darryl -- I can see they're different sensors. And I can see from the detailed info you've posted that the ASI120MM is a very capable cam. But if Sam's marketing material on his site is to be believed, then the ASI130MM is intended for planetary, solar and lunar imaging also, and has a fast frame rate (even faster than the 120), high QE (55% peak), as well as the same resolution as the 120.

I can look at the images posted on the site. The ones taken with the ASI130MM aren't quite competing with the ones posted there from you and Emil taken with the 120, but I can't tell if this is due to a difference in the suitability of the cameras, or a difference in the skills of the imagers. Knowing the work of a couple of the gents involved, however, I can make some semi-educated guesses. There are Saturns from ZZ on both pages, but not knowing anything about the conditions they were taken under, the processing, etc., other than being able to say that they're of roughly the same quality, I can't judge much.

What I was hoping for is to get some kind of idea of why you are working with the 120 instead of the 130. Maybe the 130 was only available later so it wasn't an option at the time in any case? Or perhaps you had a choice, and could inform us of what went into the decision. Ideally some objective comparison would be great, but if that's not possible, then I would appreciate reading your views on what the differences between the two might be if you care to share them, as I value your opinion. Or maybe Sam could provide some information.

I'm just thinking that with the investment I have in barlows, etc. that the larger pixels of the 130 would be a better fit for my existing setup. Also, all other parameters being equal (which they may not be) larger pixels are going to mean less noise.


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zAmbonii
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 01/19/08

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Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: GreatGigInTheSky]
      #5561780 - 12/09/12 01:19 AM

I was kinda interested in the comparison between the 120MM and the 130MM also (just for curiosity's sake and learning more).

The ASI130MM apparently has the same sensor that is in the QHY5 guide cam, and it isn't noted as a good planetary camera. Doing a search for the ASI130MM and two things that jumped out in some of the pages were "noise" and "pattern noise".

From here (under the help tab)...

Quote:

The ASI 130MM camera although great in many respects does suffer from noise that becomes more intrusive the more we increase gain and reduce exposure time. Sadly these settings are precisely what is required for capturing planetary images.....




and they show a method of trying to help get rid of the pattern noise...I believe through dark subtraction.

I quit searching after I found these images in which I thought the SPC900NC images looked better.

Almost looks like they tried to take a proven guide camera chip and adapt it for planetary use, and the electronics just wasn't up to the job. On the other hand, we have seen some examples of the 120MM and it looks good on the planetary front.


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GreatGigInTheSky
sage


Reged: 02/06/11

Loc: Santa Clara, California
Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: zAmbonii]
      #5561822 - 12/09/12 02:13 AM

Good find, z -- thanks. I'm convinced. But contrary to the description above, the long exposure images are far worse on pattern noise than the planetary shots. So hello ASI120MM! And as far as the Philips webcam images looking better, well, yeah, YOUR Philips webcam images... I can't say mine ever looked better than that!

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wenjha
Vendor


Reged: 09/24/08

Loc: SuZhou China
Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: GreatGigInTheSky]
      #5561887 - 12/09/12 05:11 AM

Hello Jeff
z is correct. the most difference between ASI130MM and ASI120MM is that ASI130MM has more noise and lower QE.
the color version of 120 ASI120MC has the same brightness of ASI130MM.So you must know how sensetive 120 is now


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Kokatha man
Postmaster
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Reged: 09/13/09

Loc: "cooker-ta man" downunda...
Re: Another (better!) Jupiter from ASI120MM camera! new [Re: wenjha]
      #5561989 - 12/09/12 08:27 AM

.....yes, sorry if my answer didn't really address your questions Jeff (apart from me stating they are 2 quite different cameras! )

And the question didn't really arise as to which I would have chosen and why: I was just very fortunate in that Sam sent me this camera (and the colour version, the ASI120MC! ) to test and assist him getting it the most "user-friendly" and we were most fortunate in that Torsten worked wonders with FireCapture builds to do said (and also Sam, who conversely kept making constant driver revisions).....and you can also see from the specs and Sam's response the QE etc of the ASI120MM is quite superior.....

As I've said, it has supplanted the Flea3 almost completely for me - it is so easy and flexible in its' use.


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