Philip Levine
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Reged: 03/22/07
Loc: near Boston, MA
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Binoculars YES, Binoviewers NO
#5553203 - 12/04/12 12:53 AM
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Just a post to express surprise that I can easily use and enjoy good quality binoculars, but cannot seem to merge images in good quality, collimated binoviewers.
Any insights as to why?
Phil
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mikey cee
Postmaster
Reged: 01/18/07
Loc: bellevue ne.
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Re: Binoculars YES, Binoviewers NO
[Re: Philip Levine]
#5553219 - 12/04/12 01:18 AM
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CarlDD
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Reged: 07/23/07
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Re: Binoculars YES, Binoviewers NO
[Re: mikey cee]
#5553423 - 12/04/12 07:00 AM
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I had the same problem, it was the eyepiece barrel safty groove - swapped from a pair of TV Click Stop Zooms to BGO's and all was well.
Also - try low poweredeyepieces, I like 30mm to 40mm they are easier to merge,
Best Regards
Carl
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RAKing
Postmaster
Reged: 12/28/07
Loc: West of the D.C. Nebula
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Re: Binoculars YES, Binoviewers NO
[Re: Philip Levine]
#5553425 - 12/04/12 07:02 AM
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Phil,
There was a learning curve for me. I have always enjoyed binoculars and was surprised the first couple of times I looked through a binoviewer. I couldn't merge the images either, and couldn't figure out why.
Then one night, I just relaxed, blinked my eyes, and the image merged. I still have trouble at times, especially with very dim objects. But I just look for a star to focus on, then go through my relaxing and blinking drill -- and it works.
I hope this helps. Using binos is the best thing that happened to me in astronomy.
Take care,
Ron
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Eddgie
Postmaster
Reged: 02/01/06
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Re: Binoculars YES, Binoviewers NO
[Re: Philip Levine]
#5553565 - 12/04/12 08:48 AM
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Perhaps something is wrong with your binoviewer.
I have had three pairs of binoviewers in the last year.. The Denkmeier (standard), the Baader Maxbright, and now the Mark Vs. I have had perfectly merged views with each of them with no strain at all. I just look though and see a single image.
I will say this though. The Denk and the Mark V make it easy to get the eyepeices in perfect alignment. Sometimes the Maxbrights would require a tiny bit of pressure on the top of the eyepeices to hold them seated, or when the screws were tightened, the eyepcies could be a tiny bit out of alignment. Loosening the screws and rotating the eyepeices slightly to get them seated would always fix this problem.
Anyway, if the binoviewer is in good alignemt there should be absolutly no problem merging the image, and it would appear that in the better quality units, you might be more likley to get better alignment.
So, perhaps you should reserve such a powerful "NO" until you have tried some other pairs. Clearly it is not you because binoculars work (though they are often out of alignment but this is masked because of the low powers), so logically (as Spock would say) it must be the binoveiwer you are using.
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gonzosc1
super member
Reged: 11/08/12
Loc: South Carolina
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Re: Binoculars YES, Binoviewers NO
[Re: Eddgie]
#5554171 - 12/04/12 03:24 PM
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I just got my orion BV's. still don't have my full scope set up yet. I have been playing with the BV's in the mean time.
after reading about all the merging problems I found myself looking through my BV's without ep's and I noticed the same thing.
after about a week of looking through the BV's I started trying different things to see if I could get it to merge.
I can only speak for myself but for me, my brain was getting in the way. that almost never happens 
it appears that my eyes are drawn to the BV's and not the view I should be seeing through them. I find myself looking at the inside of the BV's. don't ask why!!
so a few days ago I started holding the BV's at arms length and looking through them and not at them. I would slowly bring them closer and closer while keeping my eyes on target and there it was,,,one picture of the tree outside my window. BV's about 4-5 inches from my eyes.
after a few days I don't even think about it now. !!!
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Eddgie
Postmaster
Reged: 02/01/06
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Re: Binoculars YES, Binoviewers NO
[Re: gonzosc1]
#5554254 - 12/04/12 04:35 PM
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Trust me on this. Holding them up is not at all the same thing as using them in a telescope with eyepecies in them. It is very hard to set your IPD and the way there is no light cone can make it hard to even get the unit in perfect axial alignment.
I can hold a binoviewr with no eyepeices and see double image, but in the telescope with eyepeices in place and the IPD set properly, I never get this effect. Only when it is outside of the scope and no eyepeices are in it.
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Rick Woods
Postmaster
Reged: 01/27/05
Loc: Inner Solar System
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Re: Binoculars YES, Binoviewers NO
[Re: Eddgie]
#5554544 - 12/04/12 07:56 PM
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Anyway, if the binoviewer is in good alignemt there should be absolutly no problem merging the image, and it would appear that in the better quality units, you might be more likley to get better alignment.
So, perhaps you should reserve such a powerful "NO" until you have tried some other pairs. Clearly it is not you because binoculars work (though they are often out of alignment but this is masked because of the low powers), so logically (as Spock would say) it must be the binoveiwer you are using.
A big +1 to that. I first had a Burgess BV, and I hated it. Nothing looked right. Later, I took a chance on a Vernonscope BV, and it's flawless. Perfect, effortless merging. The VS unit cost three times what the Burgess unit cost. Is it three times better? Hell yes, and then some!
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johntrob
sage
Reged: 03/14/11
Loc: Georgia, USA
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Re: Binoculars YES, Binoviewers NO
[Re: Rick Woods]
#5554552 - 12/04/12 08:02 PM
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The first time I used my Denkmeier binos, it was love at first sight. Of course I could not get my goto to, goto. That is a different story.
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Rick Woods
Postmaster
Reged: 01/27/05
Loc: Inner Solar System
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Re: Binoculars YES, Binoviewers NO
[Re: johntrob]
#5556464 - 12/05/12 09:29 PM
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I could not get my goto to, goto.
Say that five times fast!
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t.r.
Post Laureate
Reged: 02/14/08
Loc: Upstate NY
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Re: Binoculars YES, Binoviewers NO
[Re: Rick Woods]
#5557330 - 12/06/12 11:36 AM
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Philip, there is a technique you can try to help merge the images...
First, use low power/long focal length eyepieces to start, around 20mm or longer. Starting at too high a magnification is self-defeating. Aim at a bright planet. Run the telescope focuser outside out of focus until you get an unfocused blob. Merge that blob. Now begin to rack the telescope focus inward toward the focal point slowly, keeping the blob perfectly merged. If it starts to separate, stop and relax. Close your eyes for a bit if necessary. Open and merge the image. Then proceed again and again in small increments, the blob will get smaller, tighter and then focus into a well defined, focused planetary disk.
Now go down to your next eyepiece pair, perhaps 18's or 16's and repeat. This will exercise your eye/brain combination and allow it to practice and build muscle memory. Soon, you will be able to binoview down to such low focal length eyepieces as 6mm if desired without effort, instinctively. Don't give up, not quite yet.  Good luck.
Oh, one more tip. DO NOT begin your observing session monoviewing for any amount of time! I have always found it more difficult to begin binoviewing if I have spent time in mono mode. Go out for the night and jump right into binoviewing fresh! Sounds quirky, but the stress on your eye when observing mono is real. My closed eyes ability to focus to the same point as the open observing eye's is compromised!
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faackanders2
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/28/11
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Re: Binoculars YES, Binoviewers NO
[Re: t.r.]
#5563315 - 12/09/12 11:11 PM
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Try lower power first. I believe image has to be within 10% to merge. If you can't get low power to merge it is either binoviewer colimation error or unfortunately you. Check to see if you have issues looking through someone else's binoviewers. Good luck.
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pftarch
sage
Reged: 09/21/07
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Re: Binoculars YES, Binoviewers NO
[Re: faackanders2]
#5563499 - 12/10/12 02:43 AM
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Are you ever near Manchester NH? I've had a bunch of "non-telescope" people look through my Earthwin's without problems. In fact, I've never had anyone say the couldn't merge the image. (It usually takes them a while to FIND the image, but heck, I've got them looking through RKE 28's. And I can always tell by the way they say "whoa" real softly when they actually see Jupiter or Saturn.) If you are in the neighborhood you are welcome to try out my humble rig and see if it works for you. Shoot me a PM and let me know.
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
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Re: Binoculars YES, Binoviewers NO
[Re: faackanders2]
#5564056 - 12/10/12 12:12 PM
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Try lower power first. I believe image has to be within 10% to merge. If you can't get low power to merge it is either binoviewer colimation error or unfortunately you. Check to see if you have issues looking through someone else's binoviewers. Good luck.
Magnification could indeed be related to the problem, because binoviewers function at a higher magnification than binoculars. This magnifies any alignment problems considerably.
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Jeff B
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/30/06
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Re: Binoculars YES, Binoviewers NO
[Re: Philip Levine]
#5564079 - 12/10/12 12:30 PM
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Just a post to express surprise that I can easily use and enjoy good quality binoculars, but cannot seem to merge images in good quality, collimated binoviewers.
Any insights as to why?
Phil
The first thing I had to do to merge the images was to stop drinking.
I sold them the next day.
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faackanders2
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/28/11
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Re: Binoculars YES, Binoviewers NO
[Re: pftarch]
#5565035 - 12/10/12 10:36 PM
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Some people can't merge the images - perhaps it is their eyes, perhaps their mind. Higher power magnifies the problem and makes it harder to merge. Lower power reduces the problem and makes it easier to merge.
Sometimes my 25x100 binos and binoviewers get twisted slightly out of colimation so I see double. The fix is to push them toghethr , pull them out, and then push to correct IPD. This eliminates the out of colimation twist.
Note if you observe for a long time and get tired, the brain has a harder time to merge.
I am in the midwest, not near NH.
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Sarkikos
Postmaster
Reged: 12/18/07
Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
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Re: Binoculars YES, Binoviewers NO
[Re: Rick Woods]
#5565623 - 12/11/12 09:50 AM
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Rick,
I have a pair of Burgess Binoviewers, the old BV125C model. I never really had much of a problem merging the images. (Maybe I was lucky and got a used pair that were still well-collimated?) But that became even easier when I replaced the set-screw eyepiece holders with the twist type. Now I can push the power to as much as 600x with 6mm eyepieces - though I rarely do that - and still merge the images.
I advise the OP to buy binoviewers with twist-top eyepiece holders instead of set-screws. But he says he has tried good quality binoviewers. They should have had twist-tops.
Mike
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