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Equipment Discussions >> Cats & Casses

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mayidunk
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Reged: 02/17/10

Loc: Betwixt & Between...
Meade 7" Maksutov Collimation new
      #5554064 - 12/04/12 02:09 PM

I was fortunate to recently purchase a used Meade 7" Maksutov ("Big Mak") OTA, it's something that I used to dream about having way back when. I still can't really afford it, but decided that it was now or never!

Anyway, this OTA has push-pull collimation screws on the meniscus cell, which many seem to feel is "the" way to collimate this scope. I have learned from reading about other people's experiences trying to collimate their "Big Maks" using these screws that, basically, those screws aren't what they seem to be, with their efforts apparently ending in failure.

My "new" baby is scheduled to arrive this week, and I've been assured that the collimation is fine. Hopefully this means that no one has ever tried messing with the front cell adjustment. However, just as a point of curiosity, given that nothing else has changed in the alignment of the optical train, if it ever came to light that someone did try adjusting the front cell, is there a surefire way for a user to test it, and bring it back into adjustment if need be without having to send the OTA out to Dr. Clay do be collimated?



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orion61
Vendor(Clear Edge Optical)
*****

Reged: 10/20/07

Loc: NW Iowa BURRRR
Re: Meade 7" Maksutov Collimation new [Re: mayidunk]
      #5554200 - 12/04/12 03:54 PM

Those push pull screws work fine for tweeking those. I have one and was slightly out.
Here lies the problem, one of the problems with the 7" Mak is the large image shift from the mirror, it is enough that unless you pull it apart and address it the system can be perfect pointed west but point it up and it is out again.
Also make sure the meniscus holder is not too tight!
they work best when like a refractor lens there is a tiny rattle to it.


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mayidunk
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Reged: 02/17/10

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Re: Meade 7" Maksutov Collimation new [Re: orion61]
      #5554872 - 12/04/12 11:50 PM

Quote:

Those push pull screws work fine for tweeking those. I have one and was slightly out.
Here lies the problem, one of the problems with the 7" Mak is the large image shift from the mirror, it is enough that unless you pull it apart and address it the system can be perfect pointed west but point it up and it is out again.
Also make sure the meniscus holder is not too tight!
they work best when like a refractor lens there is a tiny rattle to it.



I think this is the purpose of the mirror lock. It's for squaring the primary with the optical train after it has been focused. In fact, I've read were other people recommend setting the mirror lock so that it slightly drags, so that the primary will remain reasonably square with the optical axis while it's being focused, and then locked afterwards in order ensure that it's squared up properly. Does your's have the mirror lock?

I also read about another person who had used the push-pull screws to try to fix a slight miscollimation, and in doing so actually made it worse! They weren't able to undo what they did because the misalignment they were originally trying to fix made it impossible for them to accurately undo their adjustment. Instead of making it better by adjusting the push-pull screws, they actually made it worse by adding another alignment error to the already existing error!

This is why I posed the question, as I have a hunch that some people may be incorrectly intuiting the purpose of those screws as having the same affect as the adjustment screws on the secondary of a typical SCT or newt. From what I've been reading it seems that, while they may be adjusting the secondary's tilt, more importantly they're actually allowing you to adjust the meniscus in parallel with adjustments made to the primary as it's collimated. I don't completely understand it, but I believe that those screws may have more to do with maintaining an important relationship between the meniscus and the primary, and less to do with adjusting the tilt of the secondary, though that's also happening. The Meade has a spherical secondary, and an aspherical primary.

From what little I think I know about this, while most other Gregory/Maksutovs don't have push-pull meniscus cells, their meniscus' must still be shimmed in order to maintain that spatial relationship with the primary. In doing so, the secondary alignment pretty much takes care of itself. The crux of the matter being that the relationship of the meniscus to the primary is the more critical dimension, which cannot be correctly set by merely attempting to align the secondary spot. I think this may be why out-of-focus star images on many factory collimated Gregory/Maks appear to show them to be out of collimation, when in fact they are perfectly collimated at the focal plane.

That being said, I'm certainly no expert in any of this which is why I'm tossing it out for discussion with the hope that someone who does this a lot, like Dr. Clay, might also chime in on it.

Edited by mayidunk (12/05/12 05:29 AM)


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mayidunk
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Reged: 02/17/10

Loc: Betwixt & Between...
Re: Meade 7" Maksutov Collimation [Re: mayidunk]
      #5556078 - 12/05/12 05:55 PM

Bump...

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orion61
Vendor(Clear Edge Optical)
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Reged: 10/20/07

Loc: NW Iowa BURRRR
Re: Meade 7" Maksutov Collimation new [Re: mayidunk]
      #5556417 - 12/05/12 09:03 PM

The mirror lock is only on the later tubes.
When all else fails bottom the adjusters down and start one screw at a time. It is confising if you are used to SCT alignment. but trust me it was his inability not the scope.


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Asbytec
Guy in a furry hat


Reged: 08/08/07

Loc: La Union, PI
Re: Meade 7" Maksutov Collimation new [Re: orion61]
      #5556682 - 12/05/12 11:44 PM

Not sure where to go with this, you concern is that someone might have used the meniscus adjustment screws to align the scope. Those adjustment screws do seem to be more about adjusting the tilt of the meniscus so the chief ray coincides with the optical axis. Then you adjust the primary to that same axis to achieve collimation.

I doubt the meniscus adjustment has anything to do with the primary/meniscus spacing. With a moving mirror focusing mechanism, maintaining optimal spacing is nearly impossible since no one focus point is optimal for all eyepieces. You will always adjust focus while affecting the spacing a tiny bit.

If meniscus collimation is off, maybe there is some sort of laser technique you can use to square the meniscus. The idea would be to send the laser from the secondary down the primary baffle to dead center on the focal plane. Final tilting the primary mirror would bring it's axis coincident and complete the collimation - and not only at the focal plane, but along the entire axis on both sides of focus.

That seems to suggest a way to determine if the optical axis are coincident. If you get a nicely centered shadow through large de-focus on both sides, then it would be collimated. If the shadow skews from one side to the other - and is collimated at the focal plane only - something is not square. That something could be the meniscus/secondary. So, maybe collimating at or very near focus, then adjusting the meniscus tilt until it's perfectly centered along the entire range of focus travel is one technical to try, if needed.

You can imagine, if the meniscus is tilted, the chief ray will not be parallel or coincident with the tube or optical axis - nor strike the primary dead center (imagining it had a center.) Additionally, the diverging marginal rays might even miss the primary all together. Getting that right seems to be the purpose of those adjustment screws.

You're correct, I believe, my Mak and no others I am aware of have such adjustment. They rely on the meniscus being square to the OTA through the fabrication process and allow adjustment of the primary only.

If the star is merely collimated at the focal plane, then I think Larry will agree it's because the meniscus axis and primary mirror axis are not coincident. But, this looks like something that can be "not made worse" if a good technique can be devised - certainly focusing only on the meniscus axis, first and foremost.

My two cents.

Edited by Asbytec (12/05/12 11:52 PM)


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orion61
Vendor(Clear Edge Optical)
*****

Reged: 10/20/07

Loc: NW Iowa BURRRR
Re: Meade 7" Maksutov Collimation new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5556897 - 12/06/12 05:08 AM

I know the OTA he's talking about and it's a good tube.
It belonged to a friend of mine.
It may need tweeked now but the optics are Grade A.


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Jay
member
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Reged: 09/01/06

Loc: Southern California
Re: Meade 7" Maksutov Collimation new [Re: orion61]
      #5558073 - 12/06/12 06:52 PM Attachment (11 downloads)

Hi Bob and Orion61,

If this is the scope you recently purchased then the collimation screws were never touched. It arrived from Meade in Irvine less than 15 miles away and was in perfect collimation. The scope was used rarely and babied when in use.

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/attachments/5473677-small_DSC0018.jpg

Thanks,

Jay

Edited by Jay (12/06/12 06:53 PM)


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