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Observing >> Deep Sky Observing

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Bill Barlow
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 12/03/07

Loc: Overland Park KS
Re: Can't Split The 6 Trapezium Stars new [Re: kansas skies]
      #5556321 - 12/05/12 08:02 PM

I could easily see both the E and F stars in my Meade 12 ACF between 150x-200x. This was when the Orion Nebula was only about 20 degrees above the horizon. I guess the higher resolution of the 12" scope helped me out a lot.

Bill


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MikeBOKC
Post Laureate
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Reged: 05/10/10

Loc: Oklahoma City, OK
Re: Can't Split The 6 Trapezium Stars [Re: Bill Barlow]
      #5556427 - 12/05/12 09:09 PM

E and F are just about always there in my CPC1100, unless seeing is really doggy. Then, they tend to fade in and out. Under 10 inches I think you need fairly still air.

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drbyyz
sage
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Reged: 11/04/12

Re: Can't Split The 6 Trapezium Stars new [Re: MikeBOKC]
      #5562253 - 12/09/12 11:27 AM

Gave this a shot last night after reading this thread yesterday. Seeing was kinda iffy, but not too awful. My skies also aren't the greatest. Was able to make out E pretty easily, but it was definitely flickering in and out of my vision. No luck at all on F. Going to try again on a better night.

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REC
Post Laureate
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Reged: 10/20/10

Loc: NC
Re: Can't Split The 6 Trapezium Stars new [Re: drbyyz]
      #5562471 - 12/09/12 01:36 PM

For me, that's a tough one for my 8" SCT. Generally feel lucky if I can just get E steady without blinking in and out. But when I do, I know I'm going to get a knock out view of the nebula! Definitely a seeing issue here.

Bob


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jacobmarchio
sage


Reged: 08/30/12

Loc: Alabama
Re: Can't Split The 6 Trapezium Stars new [Re: REC]
      #5563042 - 12/09/12 07:44 PM

Yeah, my skies are pretty bad right now... mostly clouds ever since the beginning of December, and the forecast doesn't look too good either.

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bandhunter
super member
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Reged: 12/01/09

Loc: North Carolina
Re: Can't Split The 6 Trapezium Stars new [Re: Rich (RLTYS)]
      #5574906 - 12/16/12 10:29 PM

Quote:

Seeing conditions can also have a major effect on seeing 6 stars. With my 10" refl sometimes it's easy other times I just can't do it.

Rich (RLTYS)




^
| This


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
*****

Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Can't Split The 6 Trapezium Stars new [Re: helpwanted]
      #5576645 - 12/17/12 11:56 PM

Nah. E and F are much brighter than that (about Mag 10 each), and typically are easy under suburban skies with average seeing in a 4" refractor.

I find poor baffling/glare suppression to be the biggest culprit in not seeing all six in moderate aperture scopes. The other challenge is observer expectations. Warm up on Polaris then Rigel. Train your eye to pick out a little "diamond chip" star next to a much brighter companion. Use a finder chart so that you know exactly where to look. I bet they were there in the 6" f/5 if he knew exactly where to look.

http://www.astropix.com/HTML/B_WINTER/TRAPEZ.HTM

Regards,

Jim


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blb
Post Laureate


Reged: 11/25/05

Loc: Piedmont NC
Re: Can't Split The 6 Trapezium Stars new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5577265 - 12/18/12 12:49 PM

Quote:

Nah. E and F are much brighter than that (about Mag 10 each), and typically are easy under suburban skies with average seeing in a 4" refractor.

I find poor baffling/glare suppression to be the biggest culprit in not seeing all six in moderate aperture scopes. The other challenge is observer expectations. Warm up on Polaris then Rigel. Train your eye to pick out a little "diamond chip" star next to a much brighter companion. Use a finder chart so that you know exactly where to look. I bet they were there in the 6" f/5 if he knew exactly where to look.

http://www.astropix.com/HTML/B_WINTER/TRAPEZ.HTM

Regards,

Jim




Vrey good advice Jim. If you can see the companion stars for Polaris and Rigel you should be able to see the E and F stars in the Trapezium, but you may need to use some averted vision to find them at first. Averted vision will place the stars in a more sensitive part of the eye, so they will be a little easier to see the first time. Also do a star test to be certain that your scope is well collimated. That may prevent you from seeing them too.


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Ain Soph Aur
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 08/11/11

Loc: West Tennessee
Re: Can't Split The 6 Trapezium Stars new [Re: blb]
      #5598779 - 12/31/12 09:31 PM

I've had E & F through my 4" f/13 Carton quite a few times from my backyard red/orange transition zone under good conditions this year, and not so much other times even when I thought conditions were excellent.

I have glimpsed E twice this fall in an excellent 60mm f/20 from a green zone, but neither from my backyard (yet) after quite a few times of trying. I usually only have the 60mm out at home for lunar viewing when the dark sky conditions aren't so good.


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bremms
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 08/31/12

Loc: SC
Re: Can't Split The 6 Trapezium Stars new [Re: blb]
      #5598875 - 12/31/12 10:56 PM

E and F are all about scattered light and seeing. Years ago, never had any trouble if the seeing was good from a green blue site with a very good 6 inch f8. Hard in a C8 due less contrast. Seeing is VERY important.

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Walter C
newbie


Reged: 01/01/13

Loc: South East Georgia USA
Re: Can't Split The 6 Trapezium Stars new [Re: bremms]
      #5600462 - 01/01/13 10:27 PM

New to this forum, 40+ years into astronomy.

I use a 10" Newt with a mirror that needs a good re-coating real bad.

Several weeks ago I saw the "E" star with no problem using a 20mm Plossl. It was a cool clear night with no wind below or high. Our dark sky site isn't totally dark, but, dark enough. Stars were points even at higher powers. I looked at Jupiter with 240x plus and was please to see 3 or 4 bans and the red spot with ease.

I took a stab at "E" with the very high power, but, it just was too fuzzy. The lower power 20mm and then with a 16mm Koneg II made the stars appear to be periods.

My opinion, stable air conditions are more important than the dark sky (which is very important) when it comes to "E".


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planet earth
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 09/07/10

Loc: Ontario Canada
Re: Can't Split The 6 Trapezium Stars new [Re: jacobmarchio]
      #5602348 - 01/03/13 04:34 AM

Sometimes in my light polluted area I will see E and F easily in a 6 f8 at X150, other times I can barely see E with a 12 f5 roughly same power.
Haven't really tried enough times with my 4.5 f8, but so far no luck.
Try try and try again.....
Sam


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jacobmarchio
sage


Reged: 08/30/12

Loc: Alabama
Re: Can't Split The 6 Trapezium Stars new [Re: planet earth]
      #5604689 - 01/04/13 12:30 PM

Ok, I've got a question: how far apart would the separation be at around 200x?

Haven't had good conditions for a while, patiently waiting... it seems like constant cloud.


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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
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Reged: 06/24/03

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Can't Split The 6 Trapezium Stars new [Re: jacobmarchio]
      #5604961 - 01/04/13 02:49 PM

Here is a map of the Trapezium and its associated stars:
Theta Orionis


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Lane
Post Laureate


Reged: 11/19/07

Loc: Frisco, Texas
Re: Can't Split The 6 Trapezium Stars new [Re: Starman1]
      #5605172 - 01/04/13 04:38 PM

I have seen E and F with my TMB 92L several times now in a blue zone, but it does take a bit of patience to find them. F always seems to be harder though when the atmosphere is not cooperating. I have failed to find it on several occasions with that little scope.

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BillFerris
Post Laureate
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Reged: 07/17/04

Loc: Flagstaff, Arizona, USA
Re: Can't Split The 6 Trapezium Stars new [Re: jacobmarchio]
      #5605571 - 01/04/13 08:58 PM

Quote:

Ok, I've got a question: how far apart would the separation be at around 200x?




E and F are separated by about 4 arcseconds, respectively, from stars A and C. At a magnification of 200X, the apparent separation would be (4x200) 800 arcseconds. This translates to (800/60) 13.3 arcminutes...not quite half the size of a full Moon to the naked eye.

Bill in Flag


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dpwoos
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 10/18/06

Loc: United States
Re: Can't Split The 6 Trapezium Stars new [Re: jacobmarchio]
      #5607597 - 01/06/13 12:10 AM

Quote:

Hi all,
I was out observing last night. It was simply beautiful; seeing was excellent and could sport high magnification. Most of my observing time was spent on the moon. As the moon was still up, I knew I wouldn't get much detail in M42, so I decided I would try to get all 6 stars in the trapezium (I had failed before, due to seeing etc.). Four of the stars were easy, even at low magnification- but even when I push my magnification to 208x (and seeing still excellent) I only see the 4. Do I need even more magnification, or am I just expecting to much from my 6" F/5 Newtonian?




This is a perfect example of the value of joining your local astro club and observing with other folks and other scopes. Both E and F are fairly easy to see in bigger scopes (10"-14"), and once you see them once then I bet you will be able to see them in your 6", assuming your optics are up-to-snuff and working correctly. In my 6" f/8 when the sky is cooperative they are both so obvious that it is a wonder that they aren't always so easy to see. And, when the sky isn't cooperative then E is much harder to see, and F is simply not there.


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kansas skies
sage


Reged: 12/02/12

Loc: Kansas, USA
Re: Can't Split The 6 Trapezium Stars new [Re: dpwoos]
      #5609420 - 01/06/13 11:05 PM

I was experimenting a little with trying to separate these components a couple of nights ago. I was using a 4" f/15 refractor with a 17mm Celestron Silvertop Plossl (this seemed to be the best magnification for showing a nice pinpoint E component under the conditions at the time). The F component was lost most of the time in the glare of C. The seeing was a little rough, but the F component would occasionally show itself during moments of better seeing. I tried averted vision, but it didn't seem to work well here. I think this was because averted vision just emphasized the glare of the brighter component, and in my opinion, made things worse. For this reason, I think the best way to separate the components is to use a magnification that allows for E to be seen clearly and then just be patient.

Bill


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Atl
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 04/13/12

Re: Can't Split The 6 Trapezium Stars new [Re: kansas skies]
      #5610205 - 01/07/13 01:03 PM

They are awfully small and at first you won't see them...but once you do they are quite obvious. It was a challenge at 100x on my 12.5" dob....but they are distinct and clear.

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CelestronDaddy
scholastic sledgehammer
*****

Reged: 08/22/09

Re: Can't Split The 6 Trapezium Stars new [Re: Atl]
      #5616320 - 01/10/13 09:41 PM

Conditions in my area have not been good at all and we just finished 2 days of rain. Tonight however looked good on my clear sky chart so I set up early and went out around 6:45pm. Around 7:30 I tried the Trapezium and at about 137x to 150x I was able to see E without too much trouble. Couldn't pick up F though. It seems to be harder so I need to keep trying, g....

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