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InterStellarGuy
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 06/25/08

Loc: Overland Park, KS
Re: Cold Fusion new [Re: deSitter]
      #5585753 - 12/23/12 02:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Rossi claims the E-cat works by immobilizing hydrogen in nickel at high pressure, then triggering the reaction with either heat or some radio frequency (depending on which reports you read - he keeps the details a trade secret).



Might there be a hidden radio frequency beam supplying energy to the device?




No. Simple arguments remove all possibility of an external source. Read Jed Rothwell.

-drl




There is no way to eliminate the external source argument as Rossi will not allow close inspection of the innards of his device, nor will he allow the type of tests needed to definitively state that fusion is occurring.


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deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: Cold Fusion new [Re: Joad]
      #5585931 - 12/23/12 04:52 PM

Quote:

I took your advice, looked up Jed Rothwell, and found his cold fusion web site/archive. His "introduction" to the site begins with these words, and I quote:

"Cold fusion is a nuclear effect discovered by Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons in the 1980s. They announced the discovery in March 1989 at the University of Utah."

He does not mention anywhere that after this "discovery" was announced to much fanfare, an international investigation ensued, with the outcome that the "discovery" was rejected. (Let's not hear any conspiracy theories about this, shall we? The rejection was ecumenical.) Rothwell's exclusion of this essential information, while asserting the success (!!??) of the Pons/Fleischmann experiment, does not betoken reliability or objectivity on the subject.




No such thing happened, an "international investigation" did not "ensue". The people who had some reason to believe in the reality of the phenomenon in hydrated palladium continued on with their research with almost no support. Since this is bound to become emotional, with me, the physicist, most likely to become so, I will bow out now. You are free to believe whatever you wish, but I actually understand what is happening.

-drl


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Joad
Wordsmith
*****

Reged: 03/22/05

Re: Cold Fusion new [Re: deSitter]
      #5585953 - 12/23/12 05:05 PM

Man, are you ever in denial.

See the "Response and Fallout" section.


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Rick Woods
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: Cold Fusion new [Re: Joad]
      #5586253 - 12/23/12 08:54 PM

Aww, somebody needs a hug!

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Jarad
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/28/03

Loc: Atlanta, GA
Re: Cold Fusion new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #5586262 - 12/23/12 08:59 PM

Play nice, guys.



Jarad


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Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: Cold Fusion new [Re: deSitter]
      #5586297 - 12/23/12 09:30 PM

drl,

Please don't step out. You know things I want to know.

If you would, explain to me "ordinary" hot fusion; the type that happens in a star or a bomb. Why are such tremendous pressures and heat needed?

Once I understand that, then I will get on to asking you about explaining to me cold fusion.

Otto


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deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: Cold Fusion new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5586361 - 12/23/12 10:15 PM

Read Rothwell. Read the book "Excess Heat".

-drl


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Joad
Wordsmith
*****

Reged: 03/22/05

Re: Cold Fusion new [Re: deSitter]
      #5586407 - 12/23/12 10:42 PM

The Library of Congress contains no listings for "Jed Rothwell" (it contains twelve--not counting a Japanese translation of one of my books--for me so I know a bit about that sort of thing).

Amazon contains one apparently self-published (since LENR-CANR.org, the publisher, is the web address of a site maintained by Rothwell, which makes this text un-peer-reviewed, in the academic sense) kindle text by Jed Rothwell.

I am more persuaded by the opinions of scientists from Cal Tech on cold fusion. "Pathological science," someone from CERN has apparently called it.


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Jarad
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 04/28/03

Loc: Atlanta, GA
Re: Cold Fusion new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5586789 - 12/24/12 08:50 AM

Quote:

If you would, explain to me "ordinary" hot fusion; the type that happens in a star or a bomb. Why are such tremendous pressures and heat needed?





For ordinary fusion, you have hot, ionized gas, which means the nuclei have been stripped of their electrons. So the nuclei are all positively charged (one charge per proton). So they repel each other. They are also very small. In order to fuse, they have to come extremely close together for the nuclear forces to overcome the electrostatic force. It takes tremedous pressure and heat to make that happen.

Jarad


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Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: Cold Fusion new [Re: Jarad]
      #5586915 - 12/24/12 10:05 AM

Once they overcome that resistance, what is it that creates such tremendous amounts of energy?

Otto


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star drop
Snowed In
*****

Reged: 02/02/08

Loc: Snow Plop, WNY
Re: Cold Fusion new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5586971 - 12/24/12 10:45 AM

Quote:

Once they overcome that resistance, what is it that creates such tremendous amounts of energy?

Otto



A change in the binding energy of the nucleons is the source.


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star drop
Snowed In
*****

Reged: 02/02/08

Loc: Snow Plop, WNY
Re: Cold Fusion new [Re: star drop]
      #5587059 - 12/24/12 11:37 AM

My guess is that the excess heat in the e-cat comes from a phase transition as the high pressure nickel hydride changes its crystal structure.

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llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
*****

Reged: 09/26/05

Loc: Amargosa Valley, NV, USA
Re: Cold Fusion new [Re: star drop]
      #5587284 - 12/24/12 01:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Once they overcome that resistance, what is it that creates such tremendous amounts of energy?

Otto



A change in the binding energy of the nucleons is the source.




The atomic mass of deuterium, a frequently considered fuel for artificial fusion, is 2.014102 u. That of helium, the product of fusing two deuterium atoms, is 4.002602. That leaves 0.025602 u of mass unaccounted for.

As a first order approximation, that's the amount of mass that has been converted into energy. Scale that up to a few trillion atoms and you've got something that can kick.


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deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: Cold Fusion new [Re: star drop]
      #5587860 - 12/24/12 11:00 PM

Quote:

My guess is that the excess heat in the e-cat comes from a phase transition as the high pressure nickel hydride changes its crystal structure.




This is an interesting idea and would amount to a sort of sophisticated new chemistry of lattices. However it does not explain the helium found or the density of energy produced.

-drl


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deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: Cold Fusion new [Re: star drop]
      #5587872 - 12/24/12 11:09 PM

Quote:

My guess is that the excess heat in the e-cat comes from a phase transition as the high pressure nickel hydride changes its crystal structure.




It always makes me happy to see someone thinking instead of just arguing from authority. But let's recap..

1) There are known phenomena in which behavior within a lattice is completely different than behavior in empty space - super- and semi-conductivity.

2) The slightest deviations from a perfect lattice have enormous effects on the phenomenon of semi-conductivity. The slightest rise in temperature is enough to disrupt the electron pairing behavior responsible for classical super-conductivity.

3) We have an experiment that sometimes works, sometimes does not, done with metals of unknown purity and lattice regularity

4) The conclusions are obvious. Here is a phenomenon which is difficult to reproduce because the lattice substrate is of varying quality and regularity, or perhaps even irregularity.

-drl


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deSitter
Still in Old School


Reged: 12/09/04

Re: Cold Fusion new [Re: deSitter]
      #5587880 - 12/24/12 11:19 PM

I should add - the lattice interactions responsible for super- and semi-conductivity are essentially quantum mechanical phenomena, and you cannot understand them in a classical sense. It is very likely that the excess heat from hydrated nickel and palladium is another such specifically quantum mechanical process.

-drl


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Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: Cold Fusion new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5587923 - 12/25/12 12:22 AM

Guys (gals?),

I am really interested in the things of which you are writing. But I cannot understand important parts of what you are writing. Would you mind taking just a few of your best ideas you have written here and explaining them step by step; especially being attentive to defining the vocabulary (words, mathematical symbols, scientific symbols) which you use?

I know I am asking you to move, for a bit, from your dialogue among equals to more of a teaching function.

And I do understand the risks you run in going this instructional route I request. The one risk is that in trying to simplify things, you make yourself vulnerable for others to hammer on you for unintended over-simplifications. The other risk is that sometimes people don't appreciate what a toil it is, and what a gift it is, to take something complex and simply explain it without doing injustice to it.

I would appreciate, for example, you teaching me more about...
- what generates the heat, the immense heat, in "normal" fusion
- what generates the heat/energy in cold fusion

But, in lieu of these, I would also appreciate it if each of you, any of you, some of you, would just take one of your best/favorite ideas and explain it/them to me (and others who are interested).

Otto


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gavinm
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 08/26/05

Loc: Auckland New Zealand
Re: Cold Fusion new [Re: Otto Piechowski]
      #5587956 - 12/25/12 01:03 AM

When you add a proton and a neutron to make the isotope of Hydrogen called Deuterium, the mass of the new atom (ignore electrons) is less than it should be (a proton and neutron added together) - mass has somehow disappeared, this is called a mass deficit. It hasn't disappeared - it has been converted to energy, called the binding energy. You can think of binding energy as the energy stored in the nucleus or the energy you need to put IN to split apart a nucleus. All nuclei (of all elements) don't add up and have a mass deficit and binding energy of differing amounts.

The upshot is that if you split apart a large nucleus into smaller nuclei (fission) the binding energy you need to put in to split the larger one is less than the binding energy released when the new nuclei form - so energy is released, largely heat due to kinetic energy of the particles.

You can also release this binding energy imbalance by joining two smaller nuclei to produce one larger one (fusion). You get more energy this way.

That was brief and undergraduate


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star drop
Snowed In
*****

Reged: 02/02/08

Loc: Snow Plop, WNY
Re: Cold Fusion new [Re: deSitter]
      #5588059 - 12/25/12 03:27 AM

Quote:

Quote:

My guess is that the excess heat in the e-cat comes from a phase transition as the high pressure nickel hydride changes its crystal structure.




It always makes me happy to see someone thinking instead of just arguing from authority. But let's recap..

1) There are known phenomena in which behavior within a lattice is completely different than behavior in empty space - super- and semi-conductivity.

2) The slightest deviations from a perfect lattice have enormous effects on the phenomenon of semi-conductivity. The slightest rise in temperature is enough to disrupt the electron pairing behavior responsible for classical super-conductivity.

3) We have an experiment that sometimes works, sometimes does not, done with metals of unknown purity and lattice regularity

4) The conclusions are obvious. Here is a phenomenon which is difficult to reproduce because the lattice substrate is of varying quality and regularity, or perhaps even irregularity.

-drl



Supposing that somehow a lattice effect is the key. Then might one expect that the use of an transition element with only one stable isotope, rhodium for example, would reduce the number of possible vibrations of the lattice? Carrying this further one might consider using technetium where there is an obvious instability in the arrangement of its nucleons. Perhaps something unexpected could occur.


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Otto Piechowski
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/20/05

Loc: Lexington, KY
Re: Cold Fusion new [Re: star drop]
      #5588580 - 12/25/12 02:41 PM

Thank you Gavin. You gave me the level of explanation I can handle well.

What is this "lattice" thing that is regularly mentionned here? I get the impression that this is constitutive to energy production in cold fusion that binding force is to hot fusion. ?


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