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Astrophotography and Sketching >> DSLR & Digital Camera Astro Imaging & Processing

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Mike Clemens
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Loc: Alaska, USA
Re: EOS 6D new [Re: mmalik]
      #5604681 - 01/04/13 12:24 PM

Interesting feature, but it takes away sky time, and... only 1 dark frame? I have had really good luck shooting my darks at the end of a session and using 20 or 30+

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jgraham
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Re: EOS 6D new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #5604732 - 01/04/13 12:52 PM

I've been conducting some experiments with a 550D using the internal versus external darks with excellent results. Pairing a light with an immediate dark is a very powerful technique. It would be neat if you could pair the dark with the light taken immediately before and immediately after the dark was taken, however, a single dark several frames removed from the light would be of limited value. The biggest benefit is nearly perfect temperature matching between the dark and light. The BIG misconception about using internal darks is that the time taking them is wasted when it could have been spent taking a light. Keep in mind that the whole purpose of stacking images is to reduce noise and this method of taking and applying darks preserves the noise information that would have been taken if the frame had happend to be a light instead of a dark. So far my experiments suggest that the method of using internal darks becomes roughly equivalent to external darks after about 10 frames (10 light/dark pairs versus 10 lights and 16 external darks). I haven't taken a stand-alone dark in over a year.

Food for thought, but of course use whatever gives you acceptable results.


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Footbag
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Re: EOS 6D new [Re: jgraham]
      #5604753 - 01/04/13 01:03 PM

First off, every time I upgrade my Canon camera, I need to update the RAW Codec. So there is a difference in RAW files between cameras. Personally, I think Canon needs to address and improve this.

And a question...
Does live view work over the WiFi?


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Mike Clemens
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Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Alaska, USA
Re: EOS 6D new [Re: Footbag]
      #5604911 - 01/04/13 02:25 PM

Yes I can use liveview over wifi, from the computer, or from an Android phone.

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Mike Clemens
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Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Alaska, USA
Re: EOS 6D new [Re: jgraham]
      #5604919 - 01/04/13 02:30 PM

Interesting stuff. I can't imagine any better use for clear stable skies though than collecting photons from the target subject. My dark management has never gone perfectly and I get varying results. I think the in-camera darks would be more consistent but I would be unwilling to sacrifice the sky time.

Quote:

Keep in mind that the whole purpose of stacking images is to reduce noise and this method of taking and applying darks preserves the noise information that would have been taken if the frame had happend to be a light instead of a dark. So far my experiments suggest that the method of using internal darks becomes roughly equivalent to external darks after about 10 frames (10 light/dark pairs versus 10 lights and 16 external darks).




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Footbag
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Re: EOS 6D new [Re: jgraham]
      #5604948 - 01/04/13 02:45 PM

Quote:

I've been conducting some experiments with a 550D using the internal versus external darks with excellent results. Pairing a light with an immediate dark is a very powerful technique. It would be neat if you could pair the dark with the light taken immediately before and immediately after the dark was taken, however, a single dark several frames removed from the light would be of limited value. The biggest benefit is nearly perfect temperature matching between the dark and light. The BIG misconception about using internal darks is that the time taking them is wasted when it could have been spent taking a light. Keep in mind that the whole purpose of stacking images is to reduce noise and this method of taking and applying darks preserves the noise information that would have been taken if the frame had happend to be a light instead of a dark. So far my experiments suggest that the method of using internal darks becomes roughly equivalent to external darks after about 10 frames (10 light/dark pairs versus 10 lights and 16 external darks). I haven't taken a stand-alone dark in over a year.

Food for thought, but of course use whatever gives you acceptable results.




That is interesting, but I'm curious as to how you are matching the temps of the darks and lights. When I began using the sensor temp, and not the ambient temp; my darks got much better at removing the noise.

You said temp matching is the most important thing. How do you control for improper temp matching?

And theoretically, why would a cameras internal dark calibration be any different then external once the temp is controlled?


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Mike Clemens
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Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Alaska, USA
Re: EOS 6D new [Re: Footbag]
      #5605236 - 01/04/13 05:20 PM

Is there a version of Adobe Camera Raw for Photoshop CS3 that will open images from 6D (or other modern bodies)? Or does Adobe try to force your hand on CS6 etc.

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mmalik
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Re: EOS 6D new [Re: mmalik]
      #5605312 - 01/04/13 06:04 PM

Quote:

I read following about 5D in this... article (page/link 4) but I have not been able to confirm or locate that setting in the manual. Was wondering if 6D has that feature; if yes please point me to the right page in the manual of 5D... and/or 6D...? Thx






Let me ask again...(without getting into the old debate/lecture of losing sky time)...where exactly is the setting to match one dark with multiple lights in the manuals of 5D (and 6D if it has that feature)? Has anyone tested that feature on 5D?


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ewave
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Re: EOS 6D new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #5605437 - 01/04/13 07:37 PM

Quote:

Is there a version of Adobe Camera Raw for Photoshop CS3 that will open images from 6D (or other modern bodies)? Or does Adobe try to force your hand on CS6 etc.



Mike
First off congrats. But I couldn't get my Adobe PS CS3 CR to open my T2i raw files, so I grabbed the CS6.


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Mike Clemens
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Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Alaska, USA
Re: EOS 6D new [Re: mmalik]
      #5605456 - 01/04/13 07:44 PM

All I see in the 6D manual that sounds even remotely related is --

(when long exposure noise reduction is enabled) "the noise reduction process after the picture is taken may take the same amount of time as that for the exposure. During noise reduction, shooting is still possible as long as the maximum burst indicator in the viewfinder shows 1 or higher."

Does this mean the camera can work on the noise reduction for the previous frame while shooting the next light frame?


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zerro1
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Re: EOS 6D new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #5605619 - 01/04/13 09:43 PM

Quote:

Is there a version of Adobe Camera Raw for Photoshop CS3 that will open images from 6D (or other modern bodies)? Or does Adobe try to force your hand on CS6 etc.




No not for CS3, "I think" the only thing you can do to get it into CS3 is with the digital negative converter?


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mmalik
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Re: EOS 6D new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #5605782 - 01/04/13 11:39 PM

Quote:

Does this mean the camera can work on the noise reduction for the previous frame while shooting the next light frame?




NO, I was referring to a very different thing (plus burst mode may not be applicable to long exposures in AP, if I understand it correctly?).

Those with 5DMkIIs, can you folks confirm if there is such a thing as buffering up to five images in the camera and then taking a single dark frame to apply to all of 'em.


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Lightning
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Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: EOS 6D new [Re: mmalik]
      #5605850 - 01/05/13 12:39 AM

Unless there is residual image left in your darks, then each dark is a statistical sampling of the noise expected to be present at a particular temperature. It's random. If you apply only a single dark to a single image (or even multiple images) then you are doing nothing about address the variance of that noise (or the read noise from the dark).

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Patrick
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Re: EOS 6D new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #5605858 - 01/05/13 12:46 AM

Quote:

Is there a version of Adobe Camera Raw for Photoshop CS3 that will open images from 6D (or other modern bodies)? Or does Adobe try to force your hand on CS6 etc.





I don't believe Adobe is updating CS3 with newer camera's RAW files. I had the same problem with CS3 not being able to read my Canon 60D CR2 files.

Patrick


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jgraham
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Re: EOS 6D new [Re: Patrick]
      #5606163 - 01/05/13 09:15 AM

I've been using Digital Photo Professional to convert my RAW files to TIFF and then load them into Photoshop. The batch mode makes this fairly painless.

P.S.

Patrick; I was pretty busy last night with my T2i. I went through 4 batteries (I rotated 3 through my charger), 5 deepsky targets, and ended at about 4 this morning with the moon. I love how versatile this camera is and how Backyard EOS helps to pull it all together.

Now for a nap!


Edited by jgraham (01/05/13 09:21 AM)


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ewave
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Loc: northwest NJ
Re: EOS 6D new [Re: jgraham]
      #5606364 - 01/05/13 11:18 AM

Quote:

I've been using Digital Photo Professional to convert my RAW files to TIFF and then load them into Photoshop. The batch mode makes this fairly painless.

P.S.

Patrick; I was pretty busy last night with my T2i. I went through 4 batteries (I rotated 3 through my charger), 5 deepsky targets, and ended at about 4 this morning with the moon. I love how versatile this camera is and how Backyard EOS helps to pull it all together.

Now for a nap!




John
Just curious, would it be then beneficial to use the AC adapter in that case (I guess thermal noise would not pose a problem in the winter months)?

Thanks

Sean


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Footbag
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Re: EOS 6D new [Re: ewave]
      #5606409 - 01/05/13 11:40 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I've been using Digital Photo Professional to convert my RAW files to TIFF and then load them into Photoshop. The batch mode makes this fairly painless.

P.S.

Patrick; I was pretty busy last night with my T2i. I went through 4 batteries (I rotated 3 through my charger), 5 deepsky targets, and ended at about 4 this morning with the moon. I love how versatile this camera is and how Backyard EOS helps to pull it all together.

Now for a nap!




John
Just curious, would it be then beneficial to use the AC adapter in that case (I guess thermal noise would not pose a problem in the winter months)?

Thanks

Sean




I would think so. I use an AC adapter.

When it's below 10F, I can only get 30m or so out of a battery. And every time you switch it, you risk bumping your imaging train and messing up and flat calibration.


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jgraham
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Re: EOS 6D new [Re: Footbag]
      #5606642 - 01/05/13 01:37 PM

I previously used an AC adpater with my XTi and I really liked not having to worry about the batteries. With my T2i I may end up getting one and if I do I'll spring for the Canon adapter. I have AC out at the scope so powering the adapter is no problem. However, to be honest since I image from home and control everything from inside my house swapping out the batteries has not been a problem. In warm weather they last about 3-1/2 hours, in the cold that sneaks down to 2-1/2 (so far), and I've heard as short as an hour when it gets really cold. I have run them completely empty before (one gave out on my last night as I was imaging the moon), but just to be safe I'll swap them about every 2 hours or between targets. It takes about an hour to recharge a fully drained battery, so I've never run out (yet).

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Mike Clemens
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Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Alaska, USA
Re: EOS 6D new [Re: jgraham]
      #5606721 - 01/05/13 02:21 PM

I may go for the Canon DC adapter for the T2i. I've been using one on the 40D for years.

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Mike Clemens
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Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Alaska, USA
Re: EOS 6D new [Re: Patrick]
      #5606872 - 01/05/13 03:57 PM

Wow! I'm speechless. And the new versions are more expensive than ever. Buy in now and assume they wont update it for future cameras. Sweet deal.

Quote:

Quote:

Is there a version of Adobe Camera Raw for Photoshop CS3 that will open images from 6D (or other modern bodies)? Or does Adobe try to force your hand on CS6 etc.





I don't believe Adobe is updating CS3 with newer camera's RAW files. I had the same problem with CS3 not being able to read my Canon 60D CR2 files.

Patrick




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