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NorthWolf
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Are Globular Clusters White Holes?
      #5610628 - 01/07/13 05:50 PM

Are Some/All Globular Clusters White Holes?

Have globular clusters been proven to have an end? And even if they do end somewhere, is it possible that we can't see the black hole/white hole because the view is blocked by all the stars that have spewed out of the black hole?

Are we looking at the backside of a black hole? Can this be considered as a wormhole as well? Can only mega black holes create the big globular cluster formations? Are there millions of types of globular clusters, big and small, just like there are different sized black holes?

There are some links here that have talked about white holes and wormholes, but not many concerning a possible globular cluster connection.

Are the black holes recently found in the center of some globular clusters actually white holes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNrYvLlhA4g

Interesting Links:

http://www.universetoday.com/76909/white-holes/

http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/schww.html

Interesting thread:

http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread.php/18256-Globular-clusters-amp-White-...

I have no degree in Astronomy or Astrophysics, but these globular clusters sure are mysterious. For now.


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: NorthWolf]
      #5610827 - 01/07/13 08:01 PM

Globular clusters are merely a class of object lying on a continuum ranging from binary stars on up to galaxies. Any black hole lurking at the center is only the result of the evolution of one or more stars at some earlier epoch after the cluster's formation.

And current understanding of physics does not have stars "spewing" out of a black hole, or white hole. Anything falling into a black hole is rendered to its constituent bits, certainly not remaining intact as a recognizable body.


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llanitedave
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5610839 - 01/07/13 08:11 PM

And gravitationally, black holes don't seem to be required to hold a globular cluster together, at least for short to medium timescales, although a certain percentage seem to have detectable signs of them. In fact a number of globular clusters appear to have partly "evaporated" over the eons, raising some doubt about whether there's any massive "anchor object" contained within them at all.

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Ira
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5610907 - 01/07/13 09:05 PM

What's a white hole?

/Ira


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llanitedave
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: Ira]
      #5610926 - 01/07/13 09:21 PM

If a black hole sucks everything in, a white hole would spew everything out.

It's more like a nozzle, I guess.


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NorthWolf
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5611170 - 01/07/13 11:36 PM

Quote:

Any black hole lurking at the center is only the result of the evolution of one or more stars at some earlier epoch after the cluster's formation.




That's what I was thinking.

Quote:

And current understanding of physics does not have stars "spewing" out of a black hole, or white hole. Anything falling into a black hole is rendered to its constituent bits, certainly not remaining intact as a recognizable body.


Well, all those stars getting sucked in must show up somewhere, they can't just vanish?

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Carl Coker
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: NorthWolf]
      #5612224 - 01/08/13 04:01 PM

Yes they can. They get shredded before they even enter stellar-mass or intermediate-mass black holes. Even for very large supermassive black holes (above about 10^8 solar masses, as I recall), where a star isn't disrupted before it disappears behind the event horizon, it will still be shredded by tides long before it hits the singularity. Any stars swallowed by a black hole become part of it and add to its mass.

And even if white holes existed, which is doubtful at best, they'd be spewing random gas, particles, and light out, not whole recognaizable objects. The tides from the singularity are just too strong in almost all cases.


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Qwickdraw
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: Carl Coker]
      #5612318 - 01/08/13 05:00 PM

White hole theory is logically flawed.
if a universe is created from a white hole then the obvious question is where did the parent universe come from? Another white hole? you can ask where the parent universe came from ad infinitum but at some point you are stuck with having to explain where the alpha universe came from. If you can explain the process where the alpha universe came from you can also use that process to explain where any universe came from which totally nullifies the need for white hole theory all together.


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FirstSightModerator
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #5612677 - 01/08/13 08:45 PM

Quote:

White hole theory is logically flawed.
if a universe is created from a white hole then the obvious question is where did the parent universe come from? Another white hole? you can ask where the parent universe came from ad infinitum but at some point you are stuck with having to explain where the alpha universe came from...




The paradox you cite does not at all negate the theoretical existence of "white holes" in some form, any more than the birth of children is negated by the inability to specify exactly who and when the "alpha" humans were before whom there weren't any at all. It does, however mean that whatever is at the ultimate bottom of the chain of existence (if such there be) it cannot be a white hole (or a black hole either) and that white and black holes are something that arose as a consequence of the original conditions of being rather than a cause unto themselves. The "alpha" problem boils down to our inability to logically or emperically explain the thermodynamics of something springing out of nothing at all, whereas the "white hole" hypothesis presumes that whatever is being spit out is derived from something preexisting somewhere else. The other related problem with the "white hole" hypothesis is our inability to come up with a thermodynamically sound explanation of how they operate, if indeed they exist at all. OTOH, similarly there's no ultimate sound thermodynamic explanation for how or why existence came to be infinitely concentrated in the singularity that was the origin of the "big bang". What the "big bang" has going for it that the "white hole" concept doesn't (unless we consider the big bang to be the only example so far we know of a "white hole") is that we have empirical evidence of the big bang (microwave background radiation, red shift with distance of objects) whereas we have absolutely none of any other potential white hole candidate.

All we've established in this thread is that globular clusters are very unlikely candidates to be an examples of white holes, and also that if white holes exist, they are not necessarily the paired output function of a black hole any more than "dark" matter is necessarily a complementary paired structure with "regular" matter.

Edited by FirstSight (01/09/13 02:49 AM)


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5612761 - 01/08/13 09:34 PM

The evaporation of globulars is not a source of doubt about the possible existence if a black hole within. The evaporation is a dynamical process which will occur, BH or not. Stars, which through sufficiently close encounters (mostly involving binaries) are accelelerated to escape velocity, will ecsame the system. And tidal stripping induced by the parent galaxy will strip away stars whose orbital energy carries them near to the tidal radius.

These processes, intrinsic and extrinsic, are always in operation from the moment of formation of the cluster. The later formation of a black hole does not change the system as a whole, as the object is merely the aggregation of mass of some small number of stars already within the system from the start. If anything, the settling toward the center of this massive object, as equipartition of energy tends to do, will somewhat increase the efficiency of evaporation as gravitational 'slingshotting' pumps up the energy of close passing stars. But I feel that even so, hard binaries are still a more efficient source of energy for the ejection of stars, due to the large angular momentum resulting from the close separation, some of which can be imparted to an interloper or a loosely bound tertiary in a hierarchical triple system.

I recommend the classic text on the subject, Galactic Dynamics.


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Pess
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: Qwickdraw]
      #5614241 - 01/09/13 06:34 PM

Quote:

White hole theory is logically flawed.
if a universe is created from a white hole then the obvious question is where did the parent universe come from? Another white hole? you can ask where the parent universe came from ad infinitum but at some point you are stuck with having to explain where the alpha universe came from. If you can explain the process where the alpha universe came from you can also use that process to explain where any universe came from which totally nullifies the need for white hole theory all together.




Pesse (Sounds like a white-washed first cause argument) Mist


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Pess
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: Pess]
      #5614276 - 01/09/13 06:48 PM

As I understand the latest conjecture of 'White Holes' is the idea is that our universe started when a Black Hole formed in another Universe. Thus, in simple terms, the Big Bang was the solitary White hole in our Universe from which our own time & space poured out.

If true, that means every time a Black Hole forms in OUR universe the same thing happens: A new Universe is formed as a White Hole forms into a new space/time expansion.

Hawking also had something to say in that he felt that the Hawking radiation he hypothesizes coming from Black Holes is essentially the radiation one would expect and predict from a White Hole. Confusingly, this makes a Black Hole & a White Hole one in the same.

Pesse (The issue is Black & White) Mist


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llanitedave
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: Pess]
      #5614869 - 01/10/13 03:11 AM

I don't think we can even posit a meaningful hypothesis of where the universe came "from". That would require some prior thing, yet the very concept of "prior" requires a time measure that exists independently of the universe. However, relativity tells us that space and time are intertwined and are both creations of our universe. We cannot go back in time past the Big Bang, because that's where time both begins and ends.

So no concept of "before" the universe, or causation of it, can actually be meaningful.


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ggiles
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5615018 - 01/10/13 08:10 AM

I can't say I buy the white hole thing one bit, it sounds like a lot of hooey and Vulcan mind melding to me. Creating a universe on the other side? Come on ... there isn't enough material in the general vicinity and what goes in gets destroyed before it gets anywhere near the center. Isn't "Hawkins Radiation" the result of anything that goes in?
Maybe I have a narrow close minded view but it just seems common sense to me.


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scopethis
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: ggiles]
      #5615707 - 01/10/13 03:10 PM

what causes globular clusters to rotate?

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Pess
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: ggiles]
      #5615731 - 01/10/13 03:26 PM

Quote:

I can't say I buy the white hole thing one bit, it sounds like a lot of hooey and Vulcan mind melding to me. Creating a universe on the other side? Come on ... there isn't enough material in the general vicinity and what goes in gets destroyed before it gets anywhere near the center. Isn't "Hawkins Radiation" the result of anything that goes in?
Maybe I have a narrow close minded view but it just seems common sense to me.




Hawking radiation, if it in fact exists, is not resulting from anything 'falling in'.

Hawking theorizes that virtual particles may 'pop' into existence near an event horizon. Normally virtual particles consist of a particle and its anti-particle and they annihilate each other almost instantly.

They can arise in empty space that contains zero net energy.

However, if the pair are close enough to an event horizon one of the pair may be captured before they annihilate and the other may escape off into the universe with a now 'real' existence (as opposed to virtual).

The energy to create this real particle is siphoned off from the black hole and, thus, hawking theorizes that over time black holes will evaporate.

The existence of these virtual pairs agrees with quantum theory and has been verified experimentally. Look up Casimir effect for more info.

Pesse (So keep any Black Holes in an air tight Tupperware container) Mist


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Carl Coker
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: scopethis]
      #5615755 - 01/10/13 03:43 PM

Quote:

what causes globular clusters to rotate?


They don't. They are self-gravitating clusters of stars, all of which orbit a common center. The distribution of those orbits and the different directions the stars orbit in are fairly random.

If they did rotate, it would be for the same reason galaxies and planetary systems rotate: conservation of angular momentum left over from their formation.


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: Carl Coker]
      #5615785 - 01/10/13 03:58 PM

Indeed, for the most part the net rotation of globular clusters is essentially zero, due to the randomness of the orbits of the member stars. But some globulars do project as slightly non-spherical, which implies some degree of net rotation. This is more likely than attributing the oblateness to a temporary 'squashing' after a galactic disk plane passage or passing through perigalacticon or elongation due to tidal stripping, etc.

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deSitter
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5618059 - 01/11/13 09:32 PM

Answer - no - globular clusters show anomalous radial velocity profiles that are exactly analogous to the anomalous rotation profiles in spiral galaxies, and explainable in exactly the same way - effect of non-linearity of general relativity.

-drl


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: deSitter]
      #5618864 - 01/12/13 11:29 AM

The radial velocity profiles of globulars are, as far as I understand, fully consistent with and explainable by Newtonian mechanics. To be sure, there is no velocity component resolved to remotely near the extent required to discern (or invoke) relativistic effects. The velocity dispersion of the system is in line with the luminosity, the derived mass-to-light ratio (considering the contribution of white dwarfs) and the observed King radius (roughly equal to the tidal radius.)

No dark matter nor 'non linearity' of general relativity need be invoked for a virtually complete description. The situation is not at all like that for galaxies.


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deSitter
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: GlennLeDrew]
      #5620233 - 01/13/13 07:14 AM

Did I just say this to hear myself talking??

"If you could return to the 50s and tell someone - what's the most amazing thing about modern life - what would it be?"

"I have a device in my pocket that can reach most of human knowledge. I use it to look at cat pictures and get into arguments with strangers."

http://arxiv.org/abs/0707.2459

Now where's my cat picture site?

-drl


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llanitedave
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: deSitter]
      #5620431 - 01/13/13 10:14 AM

Where do they get the assertion that globular clusters don't contain dark matter?

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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5621595 - 01/13/13 08:28 PM

I don't know... That paper appears in the ESO Messenger; is that a peer review Journal? Nonetheless, that globulars for the most part exist *within* the larger potential of the Galaxy and hence are subject to tidal stripping, can we confidently ascribe an apparent flattening of the velocity profile to some departure of gravitation in the weak acceleration regime?

If only we could study a system in at least near to isolation, and not well enveloped in the potential of a system having a mass many orders of magnitude larger.


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deSitter
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5622393 - 01/14/13 10:12 AM

Quote:

Where do they get the assertion that globular clusters don't contain dark matter?




They are not gravitationally bound (e.g. Palomar 5 tidal stripping).

-drl


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: deSitter]
      #5622729 - 01/14/13 01:52 PM

Tidal stripping is not indicative of a stellar system being not gravitationally bound. These two states are not incompatible. Such clusters have existed for 10+ Gyr, which is a great many crossing times for a star residing in the system. If not gravitationally bound, they would have dispersed quite thoroughly after less than 10% of their current age.

Tidal stripping is an ongoing process, commencing immediately upon cluster formation. Individual stars, which through encounters with others have their orbits 'pumped up' with sufficient energy, can have their orbit apocenter pushed out to and beyond the tidal radius, leading to the star being 'stolen away' by the Galaxy.

Many if not most globulars must be shadows of their earlier selves, having lost a considerable fraction of their member stars to the Galactic halo. Yet what remains today is still well bound gravitationally, including the least concentrated and less populous examples.


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NorthWolf
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: NorthWolf]
      #5626975 - 01/16/13 08:37 PM

I'm watching Inside the Milky Way right now on the Discovery channel and even Nebulas look like white holes.

Why? We don't know where the gas is coming from. What if all that gas and matter is all the spaghettified and compressed energy and matter that's coming out of a blackhole? We can't even see the source of these nebulas. I'm sure these white holes will be understood in a century from now. Maybe different shaped and types of blackholes/whiteholes produce different shapes (Globular clusters, Nebulae, Galaxies) because of the way the matter and energy is spat out?


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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: NorthWolf]
      #5627404 - 01/17/13 03:25 AM

The nebulae in that program look like white holes? So I guess we can now say that white holes look like nebulae. And globular clusters. And what other objects?

Has anyone yet identified, with any reasonable degree of certainty, a white hole? In all my readings I have yet to encounter anything like a firm claim supported by *some* evidence. To my knowledge, the concept of the white hole is currently just that; a concept.


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Jarad
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: NorthWolf]
      #5627669 - 01/17/13 09:18 AM

Quote:

I'm watching Inside the Milky Way right now on the Discovery channel and even Nebulas look like white holes.

Why? We don't know where the gas is coming from.




I don't think that's true. For planetary nebulas, the gas is being ejected from the central star. For some like the Veil, the nebula is the shockwave from a supernova. For emission nebulas like M42, it is the remains of the gas clouds that were condensing in to form stars being heated by those stars after they ignite fusion.

Remember, "empty" space isn't really empty - it has gas spread out through it. The density is very low, but the volumes are huge, so the total mass is still quite significant.

Jarad


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NorthWolf
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: Jarad]
      #5628105 - 01/17/13 01:36 PM

Where are all the gases coming from?

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Jarad
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: NorthWolf]
      #5628138 - 01/17/13 01:54 PM

According to current theory, all the normal matter in the universe was created at the Big Bang, and was mostly hydrogen with a small amount of helium. Small variations in density caused sections to collapse under gravity into stars. The first stars fused the hydrogen into heavier elements, then went supernova, spraying heavier elements into the interstellar gas, and also creating shockwaves that help start other gas clouds collapsing into more stars. Some also left behind black holes that accreted more gas, but in the process sent out jets creating shockwaves, etc.

Repeat for several generations of stars and supermassive black holes, and you get what we have now. The interstellar gas is generally less dense than in the beginning due to the combination of expansion of the universe (more volume), and much of the gas being condensed into stars, planets, etc. The remaining gas is now seeded with a significant proportion of heavier elements from supernovae. Various clouds of gas still collapse to form new stars or clusters of stars (depending on the size of the cloud). Such collapses can be triggered by supernova shockwaves, density waves in spiral galaxy arms, galaxy collisions or close passes, etc.

But the bottom line is the gas has been hanging around out there since the beginning, as far as we can tell. Nebula and clusters don't form due to new gas appearing, they form due to existing gas collapsing.

Jarad


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NorthWolf
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: Jarad]
      #5628205 - 01/17/13 02:34 PM

I never bought into that whole Big Bang theory... To me it looks more logical that all these nebulae, (Not the planetary ones), Globular Clusters, some Galaxies are all appearing through blackholes/whiteholes/bent space/time/wormholes from other universes and just keep spreading and spreading...

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GlennLeDrew
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: NorthWolf]
      #5629227 - 01/18/13 01:00 AM

It might 'look' more logical to the layperson, but science, as we currently understand it by considering all available *evidence*, suggests otherwise.

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llanitedave
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: NorthWolf]
      #5629840 - 01/18/13 12:08 PM

Quote:

I never bought into that whole Big Bang theory... To me it looks more logical that all these nebulae, (Not the planetary ones), Globular Clusters, some Galaxies are all appearing through blackholes/whiteholes/bent space/time/wormholes from other universes and just keep spreading and spreading...




It's not a question of buy-in. We don't choose our theories based on what "looks more logical to me". At least not since Galileo decided to test Aristotle's logical pronouncements and found them mistaken.

It's a matter of understanding the processes and the math, and causation. Logic is involved, but it's a much more rigorous logic than somebody's gut intuition, and it has to be tested to see if it conforms with predicted observations.


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TL2101
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5630382 - 01/18/13 06:41 PM

Aren't there at least three competing theories of the universe?

The Big Bang
The Big Bounce
M Theory - the collision of two branes


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llanitedave
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: TL2101]
      #5630748 - 01/18/13 10:45 PM

I think the next two incorporate the Big Bang into their hypotheses, so they aren't really in competition with it.

Plus, I hesitate to call them "theories" in the sense of being predictive and explanatory, although others are free to disagree. I don't think they've made it past the hypothesis stage yet.

Edited by llanitedave (01/18/13 10:46 PM)


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Carl Coker
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: llanitedave]
      #5634174 - 01/20/13 11:47 PM

That's right; all the Big Bang really says is that the universe was once in a hot, dense state and expanded. It says nothing about how it got to that hot, dense state, or anything about the universe's creation.

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llanitedave
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: Carl Coker]
      #5634903 - 01/21/13 12:48 PM

And it can't. Not without an extension to the laws of physics that can make predictions beyond the event horizon.

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deSitter
Still in Old School


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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: Carl Coker]
      #5635378 - 01/21/13 05:14 PM

Quote:

That's right; all the Big Bang really says is that the universe was once in a hot, dense state and expanded. It says nothing about how it got to that hot, dense state, or anything about the universe's creation.




This is an overlooked point. Even if you adopt the most optimistically naive point of view about what the observations imply, you can only really conclude that the Universe was once much hotter and denser. The rest is wishful thinking. And so the real question is one of level of naivete.

-drl


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Pess
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Re: Are Globular Clusters White Holes? new [Re: NorthWolf]
      #5635549 - 01/21/13 07:03 PM

Quote:

I never bought into that whole Big Bang theory... To me it looks more logical that all these nebulae, (Not the planetary ones), Globular Clusters, some Galaxies are all appearing through blackholes/whiteholes/bent space/time/wormholes from other universes and just keep spreading and spreading...




If that were the case wouldn't the Universe grow in mass to the point where it would eventually collapse in on itself?

Also you are violating conservation of mass law if you don't postulate a source for all this gas. Are we deflating another Universe somewhere?

Pesse (Isn't that what happened to Beverly Crusher?) Mist


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