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Astrophotography and Sketching >> Beginning and Intermediate Imaging

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dr.who
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Reged: 01/05/12

ES 152mm Mak Newt or ES 80mm APO for AP help new
      #5612564 - 01/08/13 07:22 PM

My apologies if this is the wrong forum but I wanted to see what the pro's from Dover thought before I committed myself to a potential costly mistake.

I am getting more and more into DSLR AP with DSO's and will move to CCD in the next year. I have been using my existing equipment for this without complaint but I want to do better from my LP skies and instead of buying a Hyperstar it was suggested that I look at a faster APO so I had settled into getting an ES 80mm APO. Since then it was pointed out that I should look at the ES David Levy Comet Hunter Mak Newt instead.

Of the two targeting DSO's from a Orange/Red LP sky what would you recommend? Or should I split the difference and get the ES 102mm?

This will be mounted on a CGEM by the way with a possibility of upgrade to the CGEM DX. Camera is a Canon Rebel XTi for now with plans for an SBIG 8300 mono.

Collimation is not a problem. And I want to stick to the ES line instead of something else.

Thank you for the help!


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Mike Wiles
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 02/04/09

Loc: Goodyear, AZ
Re: ES 152mm Mak Newt or ES 80mm APO for AP help new [Re: dr.who]
      #5612649 - 01/08/13 08:27 PM

I'm curious why you don't give the ED127 a shot with the camera. I've found it to be an excellent telescope for imaging and would be a nice fit with your current DSLR. That particular scope also works really well with the 8300 series cameras. You'll need a field flattener in either case...but that's a whole lot less expensive than a new telescope.

Not that I'm one to stand in the way of a guy trying to buy a new telescope. I'm all about the new telescopes. I'm just saying from my own experience that the ED127 is a solid astrophotography platform and you already have it.

Mike


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dr.who
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Reged: 01/05/12

Re: ES 152mm Mak Newt or ES 80mm APO for AP help new [Re: Mike Wiles]
      #5613854 - 01/09/13 02:48 PM

Mike-

I do now with my DSLR. And I have had modest success. To the point where I was looking into a dedicated imaging kit.

I also planned to view while imaging with my logic being that since I plan to go from DSLR (what to me would be considered OSC) to narrow band mono there would be quite a bit of "down time" while shooting subframes in each band ergo instead of sitting there goggling a laptop screen I could be viewing.

And since the CGEM will be in use for imaging that leaves me the CG5 to use as a mount for viewing. While the C11 will work on the CG5 it is a bit of a hassle whereas with the 127mm it works like a dream. And I prefer the views I get from the little 5" APO to the ones I get in the photon bucket C11 even from my LP skies. So I would rather use the 127mm than the C11 anyway.

Plus I get to buy a new scope! Seriously though I do want to image and view unless this is a silly thought...


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nemo129
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Reged: 01/03/10

Loc: WMass
Re: ES 152mm Mak Newt or ES 80mm APO for AP help new [Re: dr.who]
      #5613957 - 01/09/13 03:49 PM

Quote:

Plus I get to buy a new scope!




Ahh...the most important part of the discussion here!


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dr.who
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Reged: 01/05/12

Re: ES 152mm Mak Newt or ES 80mm APO for AP help new [Re: nemo129]
      #5614110 - 01/09/13 05:16 PM

I have NO idea what you are talking about Kirk!

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Mike Wiles
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 02/04/09

Loc: Goodyear, AZ
Re: ES 152mm Mak Newt or ES 80mm APO for AP help new [Re: dr.who]
      #5614144 - 01/09/13 05:39 PM

Quote:

...instead of sitting there goggling a laptop screen I could be viewing.




Now I understand. I've been at exactly this spot before myself. Over time I've managed to get it to the point that my laptop uses the AP900/ED127 and I use my 15" Dob. You can only stare at a screen that's taking 30 minute subs for so long. :-).

Normally, I would say to go for the ED80 because you'll find the shorter focal length easier to deal with just starting out. However, if you've experienced some modest success already with the DSLR/ED127 - I'd be inclined to go for the 152mm MakNewt. It'll give a really nice image scale with that DSLR and will be a bit faster optically.

If I were in your shoes....I'd buy the 152mm MakNewt. But - you can't go wrong either way in my opinion.

Mike


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dr.who
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 01/05/12

Re: ES 152mm Mak Newt or ES 80mm APO for AP help new [Re: Mike Wiles]
      #5614208 - 01/09/13 06:18 PM

Thank you Mike. Yep that's exactly it. Right now I am only doing 30 second subs because of LP bloom but I would do 20 of them which means that I need to find something to do for 10 minutes or so. Not too bad.

But as I understand it I can use LRGB to go beyond the 30 second subs to maybe 60 seconds which moves my time from 10 minutes per channel to 20 minutes multiplied by 4 channels for a total photo run of up to 80 minutes or just shy of an hour and a half which is A LOT of time to play Solitaire! And even longer if I start in on the whole narrow band end of things...

Thus the need for something else productive to do and also a second "imaging" scope!

However with me moving from DSLR to a CCD like the SBIG 8300 or ATIK 314L would that change the recommended OTA?


One thought that came to mind was that my original plan of getting the 102mm would mean me spending $1,500 US for just the OTA. The ES 80mm non-CF is $800 and the 152mm Mak is $1,000 so for $300 more I could just get both...! Seriously though one or the other would be the preferred option.

Edited by dr.who (01/09/13 06:19 PM)


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Mike Wiles
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 02/04/09

Loc: Goodyear, AZ
Re: ES 152mm Mak Newt or ES 80mm APO for AP help new [Re: dr.who]
      #5614268 - 01/09/13 06:45 PM

Quote:

However with me moving from DSLR to a CCD like the SBIG 8300 or ATIK 314L would that change the recommended OTA?




Not for me it wouldn't. I think the KAF-8300 sensor and our ED127's are really close to a perfect match of focal length vs. pixel size so I would choose the telescope that gets me as close as possible to that same match. In this case it's the 152...it's a bit shorter focal length, but a lot faster f/ratio than the ED127. Bonus all the way around if you ask me. I have toyed with the idea of getting the 152 MakNewt myself to take advantage of the faster f/ratio.

Alas, as of yesterday there's an ED152 refractor sitting in my living room waiting for me to get home and hook a camera up to it...so I guess the MakNewt will have to wait. I think they're interesting telescopes though. Jim Thommes over in the CCD forum is using an ST8300 with an ES MakNewt if memory serves me correctly. It's an excellent combination.

Mike


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nemo129
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Reged: 01/03/10

Loc: WMass
Re: ES 152mm Mak Newt or ES 80mm APO for AP help new [Re: dr.who]
      #5614373 - 01/09/13 07:44 PM

Quote:

However with me moving from DSLR to a CCD like the SBIG 8300 or ATIK 314L would that change the recommended OTA?



Keep in mind that the KAF8300 chip in the ST8300 is bigger than the Sony ICX-285AL in the 314L (3326 X 2504 vs. 1392 x 1040 pixels) so you will be able to fit more of your target on the chip than with the 314L. A lower focal ratio scope like the f/4.8 mak-newt will benefit from the larger chip if you like doing wide-field. Actually thinking about it, a bigger chip helps no matter what!

I own an ST8300M, but I have been admiring the work done by folks with their 314Ls! The low noise Sony chips do a great job with nebula detail.


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dr.who
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Reged: 01/05/12

Re: ES 152mm Mak Newt or ES 80mm APO for AP help new [Re: Mike Wiles]
      #5614438 - 01/09/13 08:10 PM

Quote:



Not for me it wouldn't. I think the KAF-8300 sensor and our ED127's are really close to a perfect match of focal length vs. pixel size so I would choose the telescope that gets me as close as possible to that same match. In this case it's the 152...it's a bit shorter focal length, but a lot faster f/ratio than the ED127. Bonus all the way around if you ask me. I have toyed with the idea of getting the 152 MakNewt myself to take advantage of the faster f/ratio.





Good to know. Thank you. What about cool down on the Mak as well as collimation? Not afraid of collimation by the way but it's one less thing to deal with. More worried about cool down as many times I only have 2 hours to shoot before I have to go inside and having to wait 30-40 minutes for a closed tube OTA to cool is not a plus...

Quote:


Alas, as of yesterday there's an ED152 refractor sitting in my living room waiting for me to get home and hook a camera up to it...so I guess the MakNewt will have to wait. I think they're interesting telescopes though.





Okay! NOW you are just being mean, nasty, and (worse) a tease Mike! Is it the ES one? And if so you need to give a first light report! I was drooling over one a while ago. My local shop has ONE and showed it to me...

Edited by dr.who (01/09/13 08:11 PM)


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dr.who
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 01/05/12

Re: ES 152mm Mak Newt or ES 80mm APO for AP help new [Re: dr.who]
      #5614443 - 01/09/13 08:12 PM

Cheers Kirk. Actually while I had some free time I was noodling about and looked into the ATIK. It looks like a better place to start than the SBIG since it's about $500 less which is money I can use on a filter wheel, LRGB filters, and maybe even a Ha and OIII...

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Mike Wiles
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 02/04/09

Loc: Goodyear, AZ
Re: ES 152mm Mak Newt or ES 80mm APO for AP help [Re: dr.who]
      #5614464 - 01/09/13 08:29 PM

Quote:

Okay! NOW you are just being mean, nasty, and (worse) a tease Mike! Is it the ES one? And if so you need to give a first light report! I was drooling over one a while ago. My local shop has ONE and showed it to me...




It is indeed the Explore Scientific ED152 - 152mm f/8 carbon fiber triplet. Probably be a bit before I get a true first light out of it....I have a couple of images with the ED127 to finish up and I'm anticipating that I'll have to order another counterweight. I'm pretty stoked to get it on the mount and point it at something...no doubt. The bahtinov mask will be coming out to get some first light photos....but any serious long exposure imaging probably isn't happening until I attach motorized focusing....and then it's "Game On!!" I've already set aside time around March new moon and the All Arizona Messier Marathon for a nine day trip to the desert to break it in.

Mike


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dr.who
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Reged: 01/05/12

Re: ES 152mm Mak Newt or ES 80mm APO for AP help new [Re: Mike Wiles]
      #5614671 - 01/09/13 11:03 PM

I am REALLY beginning to NOT LIKE you Mike! Just kidding! Congratulations on your new scope! And my condolences to your fellow astronomers as such a mind crushingly awesome purchase will mean that the low pressure front with rain coming my way in California is going to be here for a few days then hang up over your house for a good month!

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nemo129
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Reged: 01/03/10

Loc: WMass
Re: ES 152mm Mak Newt or ES 80mm APO for AP help new [Re: dr.who]
      #5616290 - 01/10/13 09:22 PM

I think you will do fine with the Atik as well. I really wasn't trying to push the SBIG , just pointing out a difference. As I said I really like the work I have seen done with the 314L.

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dr.who
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Reged: 01/05/12

Re: ES 152mm Mak Newt or ES 80mm APO for AP help new [Re: nemo129]
      #5616572 - 01/11/13 01:01 AM

Oh no worries Kirk! Didn't take it that way at all!

The big question in my head is still the one about the Mak-Newt vs. the 80mm. My big concerns on the Mak are the cool down time. Anyone have any insight or experience with that?

I hesitate because my bloody C11 takes a good hour plus and I am constantly fighting currents in it and that worries me when it comes to imaging... Is that a problem? Heat currents inside the tube that is.


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dr.who
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 01/05/12

Re: ES 152mm Mak Newt or ES 80mm APO for AP help new [Re: dr.who]
      #5619763 - 01/12/13 08:22 PM

After talking to someone who images with the Mak-Newt today at my local shop my worries about the cool down time were confirmed. He told me it takes a minimum of 45 minutes to cool to the point where I would be able to shoot with it which makes it very unattractive to me when compared to the 80mm APO which is ready to shoot out of the gate. Plus I can use the 80mm on the 127mm or even the C11 as a guide scope when I am doing work that requires more deep penetration.

So I picked up the 80mm today.

Thank you all again for the help!

Now it's just a question of what cam to get! The Atik really has my eye and I found out today that the 8300 SBIG's are not going to be around... So anyone have a recommendation on a entry level but decent Atik?


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