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mmalik
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M new [Re: SeattleStarGazer]
      #5677034 - 02/13/13 05:05 AM

Quote:

Hi Hilmi, I got a notification that my STT8300M Pro package arrives Monday! Looking forward to getting it set up. I was wondering about your experience in getting the mirror positioned correctly? the manual references pointing the scope at a blank illuminated wall and moving the mirror until a shadow appears then backing it off until it just disappears. Is this what you did and if so, how did it go?




Congrats; your initial impressions/setup details will be welcome if you could share? Thx


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mmalik
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: mmalik]
      #5677158 - 02/13/13 07:49 AM

Few questions regrading Astrodon filters; if one were to buy STT-8300M Self-Guiding Filter Wheel Package (the one that comes with mono camera and empty guiding wheel)...

1. Are these the right Astrodon filters for empty self-guiding wheel?

Astrodon Narrowband Filters
36 mm dia. unmounted H-a 5 nm for SBIG ST-8300 (HA5_36R) $375
36 mm dia. unmounted H-a 3 nm for SBIG ST-8300 (HA3_36R) $565

36 mm dia. unmounted OIII 5 nm for SBIG ST-8300 (OIII5_36R) $375
36 mm dia. unmounted OIII 3 nm for SBIG ST-8300 (OIII3_36R) $565

36 mm dia. unmounted SII 5 nm for SBIG ST-8300 (SII5_36R) $375
36 mm dia. unmounted SII 3 nm for SBIG ST-8300 (SII3_36R) $565

Astrodon Tru-Balance E-Series Filters
36 mm dia. unmounted LRGB for SBIG ST-8300 (LRGB2-E36R) $595

2. Which of the two (5 or 3 nm) are better for the start?

3. Again for the start, is it good/bad to mix (5 & 3 nm)?

4. What is clear filter for; is it needed? If yes, where/which one is advised?

5. What nm are the Baader filters that come in the Pro package from SBIG?

Thx


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MattThomas
Vendor (SBIG)


Reged: 07/28/06

Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: mmalik]
      #5677486 - 02/13/13 11:22 AM

Quote:

5. What nm are the Baader filters that come in the Pro package from SBIG?





Baader Ha - 7nm
Baader OIII - 8.5nm
Baader SII - 8nm

Thanks.


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SeattleStarGazer
member


Reged: 10/19/07

Re: Understanding STF-8300M new [Re: mmalik]
      #5677501 - 02/13/13 11:33 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Hi Hilmi, I got a notification that my STT8300M Pro package arrives Monday! Looking forward to getting it set up. I was wondering about your experience in getting the mirror positioned correctly? the manual references pointing the scope at a blank illuminated wall and moving the mirror until a shadow appears then backing it off until it just disappears. Is this what you did and if so, how did it go?




Congrats; your initial impressions/setup details will be welcome if you could share? Thx





So far very nice. No surprises with assembly of the Selfguiding filter wheel to the camera. Everything fit perfectly. Took about an hour being very careful with the filter installation. Construction looks excellent, I really like the filter wheel design.

I did a table-top trial with CCDOps and MaximDL, both connected immediately, filter wheel and exposure operation were reliable. Cooling was great, I ran it down 45 degrees in just a few minutes (didn't time it). I attached it to my scope (Televue NP127is) and used my living room wall to calibrate the location of the mirror. The mirror shadow was obvious as I cranked it in, solid black across the bottom of the exposure, then backed it off until the shadow disappeared.

Will need to wait to get outside to do the focus calibration. Won't have a chance for a couple weeks as I am on business travel. Keeping my fingers crossed but so far overall a very positive impression compared with my first camera, an ST2000XM, where I had a number of glitches with software and the filter wheel.


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pfile
Post Laureate


Reged: 06/14/09

Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: mmalik]
      #5677573 - 02/13/13 12:06 PM

Quote:

Few questions regrading Astrodon filters; if one were to buy STT-8300M Self-Guiding Filter Wheel Package (the one that comes with mono camera and empty guiding wheel)...

1. Are these the right Astrodon filters for empty self-guiding wheel?

Astrodon Narrowband Filters
36 mm dia. unmounted H-a 5 nm for SBIG ST-8300 (HA5_36R) $375
36 mm dia. unmounted H-a 3 nm for SBIG ST-8300 (HA3_36R) $565

36 mm dia. unmounted OIII 5 nm for SBIG ST-8300 (OIII5_36R) $375
36 mm dia. unmounted OIII 3 nm for SBIG ST-8300 (OIII3_36R) $565

36 mm dia. unmounted SII 5 nm for SBIG ST-8300 (SII5_36R) $375
36 mm dia. unmounted SII 3 nm for SBIG ST-8300 (SII3_36R) $565

Astrodon Tru-Balance E-Series Filters
36 mm dia. unmounted LRGB for SBIG ST-8300 (LRGB2-E36R) $595






those look like the right part numbers to me based on the invoice here on my desk.

Quote:


2. Which of the two (5 or 3 nm) are better for the start?





i guess this is a matter of personal preference. the narrower filters are going to reject more moonlight. the 3nm Ha is so narrow that the NII signal is rejected. subexposure lengths will be higher for the narrower filters.


Quote:


3. Again for the start, is it good/bad to mix (5 & 3 nm)?





not sure, i think you may have FHWM concerns mixing filters. star sizes may not match making postprocessing more difficult.

Quote:


4. What is clear filter for; is it needed? If yes, where/which one is advised?





maybe for spectroscopy? or any time you are interested in IR wavelengths? the clear filter has no IR cut, if i understand it right.


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MattThomas
Vendor (SBIG)


Reged: 07/28/06

Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: mmalik]
      #5677807 - 02/13/13 02:46 PM

Quote:

4. What is clear filter for; is it needed? If yes, where/which one is advised?





I missed this question in my previous reply.

The purpose of the Clear filter is to allow you to shoot unfiltered with a minimal change in focus position (par-focal filters are only par-focal to a point - there still may be minor focus shift in par-focal filters). If you always refocus between filters (something I recommend), the clear filter has minimal-to-no advantages over just an empty position in the wheel.

If your optic has refractive elements, you are better off shooting through a Luminance filter that will reject UV and IR (which can cause star bloating due to the change in focus across the spectrum - aka chromatic aberration).

Hope this helps.


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mmalik
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Reged: 01/13/12

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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: MattThomas]
      #5678243 - 02/13/13 07:45 PM

Thanks Matt/Wayne/pfile for your feedback; very helpful. Regards

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mmalik
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: MattThomas]
      #5678732 - 02/14/13 02:49 AM

Quote:

Quote:

5. What nm are the Baader filters that come in the Pro package from SBIG?




Baader Ha - 7nm
Baader OIII - 8.5nm
Baader SII - 8nm





Matt, was wondering if SBIG would consider adding an "STT-8300M Self-Guiding Filter Wheel Pro Package" with Astrodon filters? If possible, that will be a big hit. Most folks end up upgrading to Astrodon anyway in the long run as you know. Thx


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jerryyyyy
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/06/11

Loc: Stanford, California
Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: mmalik]
      #5679102 - 02/14/13 10:20 AM Attachment (65 downloads)

Hi Matt, thought I would put up a novice's imaging with the new technology. This is about 12 images with the Baader filters at 1200s subs.

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Fogboundturtle
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/20/09

Loc: Burnaby, BC
Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: jerryyyyy]
      #5679120 - 02/14/13 10:28 AM

I think SBIG would make tons of money if they invented the cloud filter. That I would buy in a heartbeat.

Seriously though, I would have love to have the Astrodon pro package plus when I bought mine last month.


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jerryyyyy
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 10/06/11

Loc: Stanford, California
Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: Fogboundturtle]
      #5680474 - 02/15/13 12:16 AM

Guys, one bit of caution with this HEAVY rig. I have mine tied down to the OTA with a wire and the camera came loose tonight. Never came out but close. Whipping this thing around on the end of a long tube can loosen it... don't let it drop out!

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MattThomas
Vendor (SBIG)


Reged: 07/28/06

Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: mmalik]
      #5682241 - 02/15/13 07:52 PM

Quote:

Matt, was wondering if SBIG would consider adding an "STT-8300M Self-Guiding Filter Wheel Pro Package" with Astrodon filters? If possible, that will be a big hit. Most folks end up upgrading to Astrodon anyway in the long run as you know. Thx




We'll see what we can do. There isn't room for any discount on the Astrodon filters - so it would basically be the package without the filters plus the cost of the Astrodons...


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mmalik
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: MattThomas]
      #5682933 - 02/16/13 08:10 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Matt, was wondering if SBIG would consider adding an "STT-8300M Self-Guiding Filter Wheel Pro Package" with Astrodon filters? If possible, that will be a big hit. Most folks end up upgrading to Astrodon anyway in the long run as you know. Thx




We'll see what we can do. There isn't room for any discount on the Astrodon filters - so it would basically be the package without the filters plus the cost of the Astrodons...




Matt, some "hypothetical" number I have put together to look at what they may look like if such a scenario/s were to materialize?


STT-8300M Self-Guiding Filter Wheel Package...$5,290
STT-8300M Camera
FW8-STT Self-Guiding Filter Wheel

36 mm dia. H-a 5 nm for SBIG ST-8300 (HA5_36R)....$375
36 mm dia. OIII 5 nm for SBIG ST-8300 (OIII5_36R)...$375
36 mm dia. SII 5 nm for SBIG ST-8300 (SII5_36R).....$375
36 mm dia. LRGB for SBIG ST-8300 (LRGB2-E36R)......$595
+Clear Filter
___________________________
Total for "hypothetical" Astrodon 5nm Pro Package: ~$7,000
[$1k more over Baader Pro Package]

STT-8300M Self-Guiding Filter Wheel Package...$5,290
STT-8300M Camera
FW8-STT Self-Guiding Filter Wheel

36 mm dia. H-a 3 nm for SBIG ST-8300 (HA3_36R)....$565
36 mm dia. OIII 3 nm for SBIG ST-8300 (OIII3_36R)...$565
36 mm dia. SII 3 nm for SBIG ST-8300 (SII3_36R).....$565
36 mm dia. LRGB for SBIG ST-8300 (LRGB2-E36R)......$595
+Clear Filter
___________________________
Total for "hypothetical" Astrodon 3nm Pro Package: $7,580
[$1.5K more over Baader Pro Package]


Note: Above scenarios/numbers are straight additions/comparisons; I am thinking if you could maybe accommodate ~$500 break off of straight grand totals above, numbers may look like this:


Total for "proposed??" Astrodon 5nm Pro Package: $6,500
[$500 more over Baader Pro Package]

Total for "proposed??" Astrodon 3nm Pro Package: $7,080
[$1K more over Baader Pro Package]


This seems quite feasible, competitive, and/or comparable if you were to entertain such an idea which seems like a great idea by the way? Thanks you in anticipation. Regards


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mmalik
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: mmalik]
      #5703210 - 02/27/13 10:32 AM

People talk of CCD chamber being sealed or not, getting rid of dirt/condensation on the sensor, etc. What is the case with STF-8300M & STT-8300M on these matters?

While we are on the subject, given internal cooling, how big of a problem is condensation on the sensor or inside the camera in the CCD world?

People talk of rechargeable desiccant plug; how is it recharged? Is plug supplied with the camera? Can or should CCDs of this sort be used without one or without charged one? How does one know when recharging in needed? Sorry totally new to this thing coming from DSLR world; all I have seen are desiccant bags that come with packages

Please elaborate on all of these questions for someone new to CCD. Thx


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pfile
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Reged: 06/14/09

Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M [Re: mmalik]
      #5703279 - 02/27/13 11:05 AM

stt is sealed, there is a dessicant plug. it is part of the camera and the plug is recharged by baking it in an oven for a few hours.

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Konihlav
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/05/09

Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M [Re: pfile]
      #5703300 - 02/27/13 11:18 AM

today, almost every manufacturer of KAF-8300 based cameras, has some kind of heating of the main optical window. So I won't be afraid of it today. Another important thing is that the optical window should be thick enough to prevent dew forming (both "thick" window and some heating is essential). The dessicant is "pasive" solution to prevent (postpone the moment it happens) dewing while heating is, I would say, "active" solution. Best is both. Then you really do not need to care about the state and re-baking of dessicant. I never baked it and I work in RH 93-94% environment (but my big CCD has really extra heating power of the optical window built in as I asked for it while I can turn it off if I want (when I travel to Atacama for example ).

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Konihlav
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/05/09

Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M [Re: Konihlav]
      #5703305 - 02/27/13 11:22 AM

SBIG certainly has some optical window heating, I believe... may you ask them

SBIG makes really wonderful cameras with the only downside - they are SuperBIG (therefore SBIG ) and super heavy.


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MattThomas
Vendor (SBIG)


Reged: 07/28/06

Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M [Re: Konihlav]
      #5703366 - 02/27/13 11:56 AM

Quote:

today, almost every manufacturer of KAF-8300 based cameras, has some kind of heating of the main optical window. So I won't be afraid of it today. Another important thing is that the optical window should be thick enough to prevent dew forming (both "thick" window and some heating is essential). The dessicant is "pasive" solution to prevent (postpone the moment it happens) dewing while heating is, I would say, "active" solution. Best is both. Then you really do not need to care about the state and re-baking of dessicant.




Konihlav,

You are confusing two issues.

A window heater is used to keep the window above the dew point so there is no condensation on the exterior of the window.

Desiccant is used to keep the inside of the CCD chamber dry, so that when you cool the CCD below the dew point you do not get condensation or frost on the CCD.

Both are very active solutions to prevent different problems. Your window heater will do nothing if your desiccant can no longer store water and your CCD begins to frost.

Thick windows and/or external heaters are only one solution to the issue of condensation on the outside of the window.

The STT camera system uses sapphire windows. These do not need heating, nor do they need to be thick.

Standard optical glass windows (BK7 is used on the STF-8300) are much less thermally conductive which can cause the center of the window to cool significantly due to the cold CCD nearby in the chamber. This cooling can bring the exterior of the glass below the dew point - causing condensation on the exterior of the window. Heaters can be added to the chamber cover to pump extra heat into the window in an attempt to keep it above the dew point. This is a simple solution, but is exceedingly inefficient due to the poor conductivity of the glass. Additionally, the window can be made thicker to further isolate the exterior surface of the window from the cold CCD in the chamber - but this is less desirable optically due to the various issues of putting extra glass in the optical path.

Sapphire, with its much greater thermal conductivity, maintains itself to the surrounding temperature much better. The addition of heaters or having a thick window is not necessary as the standard heating from the surrounding metal is sufficient to keep the sapphire window warmer than the dew point. Sapphire is an excellent solution, but does cost considerably more than standard optical glass. Thus it is only used on the higher cost STT line.

Additionally, both the STT and STF camera lines use a bake-able desiccant plug that is easily serviceable by the end user. Many other camera companies require you to send the camera back to service the desiccant and chamber. The bake-able plug is easy to remove and dry out in an oven. When baking is complete, the plug can then be simply reattached to the camera to continue keeping the CCD chamber dry. The desiccant never "runs out" and can be recharged as many times as needed over the life of the camera.

I hope this helps answer the questions.

Thank you.


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mmalik
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M [Re: MattThomas]
      #5703466 - 02/27/13 12:46 PM

Quote:

A window heater is used to keep the window above the dew point so there is no condensation on the exterior of the window.

...

The STT camera system uses sapphire windows. These do not need heating, nor do they need to be thick.

...

The addition of heaters or having a thick window is not necessary as the standard heating from the surrounding metal is sufficient to keep the sapphire window warmer than the dew point.





Thanks Matt for the info. Some follow-up questions:

•If I understood correctly, there are NO window heaters built-in STF or STT.

•So STT doesn’t not need a window heater? What about STF?

•What is a window heater by the way; only heaters I know of is heating bands folks use?

•You mention “standard heating from the surrounding metal is sufficient to keep the sapphire window warmer”; what is that 'standard heating'? Thx


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MattThomas
Vendor (SBIG)


Reged: 07/28/06

Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M [Re: mmalik]
      #5703570 - 02/27/13 01:58 PM

Quote:

•If I understood correctly, there are NO window heaters built-in STF or STT.



The STF does have a window heater. None is necessary on the STT.

Quote:

•What is a window heater by the way; only heaters I know of is heating bands folks use?



The STF has a heater strip (basically a special resistor) pre-installed on the CCD chamber to provide extra heat to the chamber window.

Quote:

•You mention “standard heating from the surrounding metal is sufficient to keep the sapphire window warmer”; what is that 'standard heating'? Thx



Nothing more than the heating the window receives from the surrounding metal - which will receive some heating from the electronics and the hot side of the TE Cooler.

Hope this helps!


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