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mmalik
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: Hilmi]
      #5709952 - 03/03/13 05:11 AM

Kodak chip -> SBIG camera distribution:



Sensor Size Reference:


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mmalik
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: mmalik]
      #5709978 - 03/03/13 06:04 AM

NOT implying just the wide-angle imaging here, but some relevance to wide image circles of some astrographs...; as a matter of fact I have mostly done narrow-angle... imaging thus far with APS-C DSLR, but may want to dabble in wide-angle.... Thx

Edited by mmalik (03/03/13 01:05 PM)


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mmalik
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: Konihlav]
      #5709996 - 03/03/13 06:46 AM

Quote:

let's put it this way: do you want to image narrow band? then get ICX694. Do you want to image LRGB? then get KAI-11000.




That's one aspect (narrow vs. wide band); then there is narrow vs. wide angle. Few questions:

Which camera brand you are referring to when you say KAI-11000?

How old is KAF-8300 in terms of its lifecycle; is it going to get updated anytime soon? Maybe not in diagonal, but in technology? Hasn't it been around for a while now? Thx

Edited by mmalik (03/03/13 01:12 PM)


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Konihlav
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: mmalik]
      #5711891 - 03/04/13 02:43 AM

to answer your question
#1: I own the newest one with KAI-11000 (newest design, newest electronics). There are couple of makers who make CCDs with this chip - it's a naughty boy and even couple of makers "failed" (that's my opinion/speculation) to use that chip in their cameras as it's not easy to handle it well. I will name the companies that did not fail, they are fewer: SBIG with their famous STL11K, Moravian Instruments with G3 series and then I only recall on Artemis, nowadays Atik. I got G3 because I beta tested it for 2 years and I really can say I know all about it and it's issue free and the best option today (and it's cheap!). As doing narrow band with that chip makes no sense (wasting of time) I use it only for HaLRGB and therefore need only 5 pos filter weel. That can be internal! no additional cables ever. Just power and single USB. It's also very lightweight (only 1.7kg!) in this configuration with enough of backfocus and adapter for cameras/telescopes (STL compatible).

#2: I would like to stop saying my opinions (as nobody relly takes my words real I guess, after being so unpolite to other members (I do not lie, I do not say kind words when there really is no reason to do so, that's unpolite for US standards ).
I would cite, what Steve Chambers said yesterday in his short talk about Atik CCD cameras on CEDIC astro conference in Linz. He said: "Kodak is at least 10 years behind Sony in terms of new technology and the gap is increasing". Many other folks here on CN were present there...
My opinion is the same
It's more probable you meet an green extra terrestrial "Martian" guy in front of your home then any technology update in Kodak. Anyway, Kodak is a real name of historical meaning, so "hands up for Kodak" what they did in the past for everyone - bringing photography among ordinary people - was amazing and should not be forgotten. Unfortunatelly today it's "kinda dead".


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mmalik
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: Konihlav]
      #5711993 - 03/04/13 06:56 AM

Quote:

"Kodak is at least 10 years behind Sony in terms of new technology and the gap is increasing".




That may be true but SONY is also 'a day late and a dollar short' with ICX694; couldn't they have made something bigger than that itty bitty thingy? Thanks for your answers by the way.


On a side note, would someone have a link/reference to the complete lineup of CCD chips from SONY just like what I have produced above for Kodak?



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mmalik
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: Konihlav]
      #5723172 - 03/09/13 11:23 PM

Quote:

I own the newest one with KAI-11000 (newest design, newest electronics). There are couple of makers who make CCDs with this chip - it's a naughty boy and even couple of makers "failed" (that's my opinion/speculation) to use that chip in their cameras as it's not easy to handle it well. I will name the companies that did not fail, they are fewer: SBIG with their famous STL11K, Moravian Instruments with G3 series and then I only recall on Artemis, nowadays Atik.




Following is the MP (megapixel) space for SBIG; going beyond 8.3 MP (KAF-8300), few questions:


1. Given KAF-8300 is getting old, how newer are KAI-11002 technologically in comparison, in terms of chip as well as camera solutions containing it?

2. What about KAF-09000; how good is that one? SBIG has STX-9000 containing KAF-09000 but price is not listed; is this something new or being developed by SBIG?

3. Given KAF-09000 is quite close to KAF-8300 in MP, is KAI-11002 decent separation (i.e., step up in MP) from 8300; I presume so?

4. How well tested/adopted is STXL-11002 (KAI-11002M) from SBIG? Has its kinks been worked out?


Thx


SBIG MP Distribution:


Edit: MP chart updated to reflect the correction discussed below.

Edited by mmalik (03/11/13 02:45 AM)


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zerro1
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: mmalik]
      #5723244 - 03/10/13 12:20 AM

the STL11000m was discontinued

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jerryyyyy
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: zerro1]
      #5723870 - 03/10/13 01:00 PM

Just to continue the discussion but to change it slightly. Those with the camera, how cold are you running it?

I am running at -20. SBIG said there was not a lot to be gained by dropping it more. Any opinions?


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AstroGabe
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: jerryyyyy]
      #5724083 - 03/10/13 03:00 PM

The few times I've had my STT out so far, I've set it to -30C. I can get there even in room temp, so keeping the dark library up to date should be quite easy.

Gabe


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Hilmi
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: AstroGabe]
      #5724090 - 03/10/13 03:04 PM

Jerry,

I have found that at 20 minute exposure, I do have less noise at -30 than at -25


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Alph
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: jerryyyyy]
      #5724150 - 03/10/13 03:54 PM

Quote:

I am running at -20. SBIG said there was not a lot to be gained by dropping it more. Any opinions?



I heard the same from QSI. If you go lower than -20/25C, you will increase the chance of catching cold, I mean RBI


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Konihlav
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: Alph]
      #5724255 - 03/10/13 04:41 PM

I am not aware there exist any KAF-11002... (KAF stands for full frame readout chip like you need a mechanical shutter to prevent light capture and the camera electronics reads out complete frame "all at once" simply said. While KAI stands for interline readout - the CCD camera doesn't need to have a mechanical shutter (but it often has it as it helps in science cameras to have it for dark/bias auto capture in remote operation). KAI cameras without mechanical shutter are unable to take short subs due to the interline effect (odd, even lines are exposed for a bit different time).

there is KAI-11000 (newer is KAI-11002 sometimes you also see ME suffix as microlens enhanced and 11000 cameras contain also 11002 chip nowadays. When I speak about 11K family I mean the newest 11002 and of course I mean 11002ME as without microlenses the chip would "not be usable"). How old is 11000 and how old is 11002 - I do not know, but it's all very old technology if you want to hear this - but in spite of that it works

SBIG was selling its famos STL 11000 CCD for many years. Now they have the new family you mention, but I have no experience with these cameras. Would like to see some flats and biases from these cameras if someone has them :-) just for curiosity and enhancement of my camera research.

I would like to cool down to -30 or -35 but that's hardly doable in hot summer months. My CCD can do 40-45 below ambient, but I have extended window heating to avoid dew forming as I shoot in very humid conditions. Therefore I reach about 38-39 below ambient so I settle on -25 or -20 in summer.

Here's some test: http://blog.astrofotky.cz/pavelpech/?p=744

Alph: KAI doesn't have any RBI issues and that's the only really positive thing on it (the price (cheap) is another benefit of KAI 11K). Unlike of KAF-16803 that needs IR flooding/preflash due to really serious RBI issues, KAF-16803 (as the first hand step-up from KAI 11K to something better) needs, on the other hand, really big 50x50mm filters and totaly expensive optics and focuser and correctors. It's beast and different price level. And because I am on tight budget I have to stick with KAI-11K that is still good for the price.


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mmalik
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: Konihlav]
      #5724446 - 03/10/13 06:24 PM

Quote:

I am not aware there exist any KAF-11002...




Please look at this... and see if you can elaborate any further. Thx


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mmalik
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: mmalik]
      #5724467 - 03/10/13 06:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I am not aware there exist any KAF-11002...




Please look at this... and see if you can elaborate any further. Thx





Strange enough; here... it is different. Are these spelling mistakes or what? Thx


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zerro1
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: mmalik]
      #5724503 - 03/10/13 06:59 PM

I think it's a misprint that has been purpetuated... Try to find a KAF-11002 on Kodaks True-sense site?? No product found!

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mmalik
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: zerro1]
      #5724700 - 03/10/13 08:27 PM

No such thing as KAF-11002. Correct one would be KAI-11002. SBIG site has the error, NOT something one would expect from the company of this caliber... looks bad. Thx

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jerryyyyy
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M [Re: Hilmi]
      #5724826 - 03/10/13 10:20 PM

Quote:

Jerry,

I have found that at 20 minute exposure, I do have less noise at -30 than at -25




Thanks. Maybe I'll give it a shot tonight. -20 only reads out at 20% power.


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MattThomas
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M [Re: mmalik]
      #5724952 - 03/10/13 11:38 PM

Quote:

No such thing at KAF-11002. Correct one would be KAI-11002. SBIG site has the error, NOT something one would expect from the company of this caliber... looks bad. Thx




Simple type-o, nothing more. It will be corrected this week I'm sure.

Thank you.


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Hilmi
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M [Re: jerryyyyy]
      #5725034 - 03/11/13 12:46 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Jerry,

I have found that at 20 minute exposure, I do have less noise at -30 than at -25




Thanks. Maybe I'll give it a shot tonight. -20 only reads out at 20% power.





Besides, one of the reasons we paid the big bucks for these cameras was the RBI pre-flash feature. So I don't think we should worry much about it.


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mmalik
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M [Re: Hilmi]
      #5725166 - 03/11/13 03:15 AM

Complete SBIG line up [Revised]:

Note: ONLY Interline Transfer CCD is STXL-11002 with KAI-11002.



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