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Astrophotography and Sketching >> CCD Imaging & Processing

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mmalik
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: Konihlav]
      #5725216 - 03/11/13 04:20 AM Attachment (20 downloads)

Quote:

KAF stands for full frame readout chip like you need a mechanical shutter to prevent light capture and the camera electronics reads out complete frame "all at once" simply said. While KAI stands for interline readout - the CCD camera doesn't need to have a mechanical shutter (but it often has it as it helps in science cameras to have it for dark/bias auto capture in remote operation). KAI cameras without mechanical shutter are unable to take short subs due to the interline effect (odd, even lines are exposed for a bit different time).

There is KAI-11000 (newer is KAI-11002 sometimes you also see ME suffix as microlens enhanced and 11000 cameras contain also 11002 chip nowadays. When I speak about 11K family I mean the newest 11002 and of course I mean 11002ME as without microlenses the chip would "not be usable"). How old is 11000 and how old is 11002 - I do not know, but it's all very old technology if you want to hear this - but in spite of that it works


....KAI doesn't have any RBI issues and that's the only really positive thing on it (the price (cheap) is another benefit of KAI 11K). Unlike of KAF-16803 that needs IR flooding/preflash due to really serious RBI issues, KAF-16803 (as the first hand step-up from KAI 11K to something better) needs, on the other hand, really big 50x50mm filters and totally expensive optics and focuser and correctors. It's beast and different price level. And because I am on tight budget I have to stick with KAI-11K that is still good for the price.




Bit more on CCD Architecture...


In Full Frame (e.g., KAF line from Kodak) all of the image area is active, and there is no electronic shutter. A mechanical shutter is added to this type of sensor, otherwise the image smears as the device is clocked or read out.


In Interline (e.g., KAI line from Kodak), every other column of the image sensor is masked for storage. Disadvantage being the imaging area is covered by opaque strips dropping the fill factor to approximately 50 percent and the effective quantum efficiency by an equivalent amount. Modern designs have addressed this deleterious characteristic by adding microlenses on the surface of the device to direct light away from the opaque regions and on the active area. Microlenses can bring the fill factor back up to 90 percent or more depending on pixel size and the overall system's optical design.


About KAI-11002: The 9.0 um square pixels with microlenses provide high sensitivity and the large full well capacity results in high dynamic range. The two high-speed outputs and binning capabilities allow for 1-3 frames per second (fps) video rate for the progressively scanned images. The vertical overflow drain structure provides antiblooming protection and enables electronic shuttering for precise exposure control. Other features include low dark current, negligible lag and low smear. Note: Optical format of KAI-11002 is 35mm.


This is to everyone... which chip design (i.e., in SBIG cameras) would you choose and why?


Note: Let’s keep the discussion focused on STT/STF 8300M vs. STXL-11002. Please elaborate your answers for learning sake. Thx


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zerro1
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: mmalik]
      #5725418 - 03/11/13 09:14 AM

Quote:

which chip design (i.e., in SBIG cameras) would you choose and why?
Note: Let’s keep the discussion focused on STT/STF 8300M vs. STXL-11002.




Well since you put it like that, none of the above. I own an 8300 based camera and don't really care for the sensor size. It's smallish and QE is fairly middle of the road.

The 11002 on the other hand is huge but no improvement on QE. It would be interesting to try one out but it doesn't really fit my needs.


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Konihlav
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: zerro1]
      #5726429 - 03/11/13 05:41 PM

what is your equipment? what is your budget, if you can afford 8-9 grands for a mount and the same for a high quality astrograph then the choice is obvious - KAI-11002ME (though it's blind beast in narrow band, it's good enough for LRGB!).

If your budget is like 8-9 grands for all of it (mount, scope, camera) and you still want to make cool, really cool and nice images, then get Atik 460EXM. I know what I am saying, I only can't proove it as we still have clouds and I am unable to show new nice images from my cameras...

this may help, just check the curves:
http://blog.astrofotky.cz/pavelpech/?p=864


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zerro1
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: Konihlav]
      #5726660 - 03/11/13 07:23 PM Attachment (50 downloads)

It's an observation not a condemnation; The 11002 is a great camera, huge sensor that deliver beautiful images. I don't have 2 nights to rub together most of the time so it would never serve me that well.

I have a KAF6303E NABG with 5 collumn defects, two QHY's, two Canon 1000D's, a Canon T1i, and 3 mounts, 3 Panasonic Toughbooks as guide computers, two Meade DSI's and an SSAG for guide cameras. and I really don't have any use for more gear...Like you; I just need some clear sky to put it to use.

For the few opportunities that I get, I'll deal with a bloomer to get some data. I've not seen a dark sky site since October...

But here is a single 5 minute uncalibrated sub of H-a from the KAF6303E.


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mmalik
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: Konihlav]
      #5727395 - 03/12/13 03:16 AM

Quote:

...though it's blind beast in narrow band, it's good enough for LRGB




Subtleties of KAI-11002:

•Not suited for NB
•Mediocre QE
•50mm filters
•Camera 2kg
•With FW8G ~$10K (+50mm filters)




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mmalik
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: Konihlav]
      #5727428 - 03/12/13 04:15 AM

Quote:

I would cite, what Steve Chambers said yesterday in his short talk about Atik CCD cameras on CEDIC astro conference in Linz. He said: "Kodak is at least 10 years behind Sony in terms of new technology and the gap is increasing". Many other folks here on CN were present there...

...

It's more probable you meet an green extra terrestrial "Martian" guy in front of your home then any technology update in Kodak. Anyway, Kodak is a real name of historical meaning, so "hands up for Kodak" what they did in the past for everyone - bringing photography among ordinary people - was amazing and should not be forgotten. Unfortunatelly today it's "kinda dead".




Sony ICX694ALG & ICX814ALG at a glance:

I wonder if SBIG would consider/introduce SONY chips of these sorts? Advantages I see will be smaller/lighter/cheaper camera designs and possible diversification of their Kodak ONLY chip offerings; though time tested, they seemed to have not kept up with time?


Talking of interline architecture, I noticed SONY ICX694 is also interline.

ICX694:
•Interline CCD
•6 MP
•4.53 um
•QE 68%

ICX814:
•9 MP
•3.69 um




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Konihlav
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: mmalik]
      #5727445 - 03/12/13 04:43 AM

mmalik: what is your budget? see my previous post in this thread, I do not want to repeat it...

to your question: my opinion is - SBIG makes only Kodak. They invested lot of time and effort into learning how to handle these beasts. SONY is completely different level. They would have to invest significant amount of manpower costs, lot of time and really lot of money, to investigate how to use/handle signals of sony chips. Also, Sony is a company hard to deal with, hard to do business with. Their chips are also very expensive so the margin/gain/net income from such cameras is low. On the other side, Kodak is, made in USA (tradition), you get complete and full documentation and maybe sometimes even support (though not perfect). So you get all this from Kodak, but the truth is, the chips are obsolete, nowadays... that's just how it is, the fact.

ad ICX814 vs ICX694, I would stay with 694. Unless you intend to do short focal length imaging with top-notch lens with tiny spots on diffraction limit.


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mmalik
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: Konihlav]
      #5727466 - 03/12/13 05:05 AM

Quote:

what is your budget?




Not about budget; it is more about learning CCD side of things. I explain it best in my first post. Thanks for all the help you have afforded, keep your insights coming. Regards


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Konihlav
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: mmalik]
      #5727468 - 03/12/13 05:09 AM

mmalik: thank you very much for saying thank you to me. I really appreciate if the advice I try to give, in complete honesty, is reflected. Thanks! I may have some "prejudice" or be "against Kodak" (subjective), but it all comes from my real experience. I may have some preferred makers, but that also comes from experience. In final words - I do not care if it's with this or that label/name/made by maker, I care about getting the BEST no matter who's name is on it.

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mmalik
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: Konihlav]
      #5727474 - 03/12/13 05:21 AM

Quote:

I really appreciate if the advice I try to give, in complete honesty, is reflected. Thanks! I may have some "prejudice" or be "against Kodak" (subjective), but it all comes from my real experience. I may have some preferred makers, but that also comes from experience. In final words - I do not care if it's with this or that label/name/made by maker, I care about getting the BEST no matter who's name is on it.




Well said; I think folks understand that and appreciate that. It is an open dialogue, nothing more. Regards


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mmalik
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: Konihlav]
      #5729735 - 03/13/13 06:20 AM

Quote:

SBIG makes only Kodak. They invested lot of time and effort into learning how to handle these beasts. SONY is completely different level. They would have to invest significant amount of manpower costs, lot of time and really lot of money, to investigate how to use/handle signals of Sony chips. Also, Sony is a company hard to deal with, hard to do business with. Their chips are also very expensive so the margin/gain/net income from such cameras is low. On the other side, Kodak is, made in USA (tradition), you get complete and full documentation and maybe sometimes even support (though not perfect). So you get all this from Kodak, but the truth is, the chips are obsolete, nowadays... that's just how it is, the fact.




Atik seems to be well diversified in their chip offerings, I see no reason why SBIG shouldn’t or couldn’t? Given Kodak is getting old, I would say it will be well advised for SBIG to invest in and introduce Sony into the mix. I get it…; ‘Sony’ may be ‘tiny’, the chip that is, but the ‘tiny’ is newer at least and will make for a lighter/slimmer/cheaper/agile camera/s for SBIG among the long line-up of heavier/heftier/expensive Kodak cameras.


While 8300 may be the bread and butter of SBIG, my pet peeve is that it is pricey and heavy, especially if one factors in the filter wheel and other accessories. That’s NOT to say well tested and reputable 8300 has to go away; it can hold the fort for however long it can. I think time has come for relatively cheaper/lighter yet high performing cameras & even lighter filter wheels which could be sold in even larger quantities to reap bigger profits.


Talking of ‘tiny’ Sony, is there or will Sony make anything bigger than their highly touted ICX694? Shouldn’t Kodak be renewing their older looking chip line-up; maybe come up with a NEWER equivalent of ICX694 but in a larger size? Will they?


References:
Truesense Imaging (Kodak)...
EXview HAD CCD II (Sony)...


While we are on the subject, following is Atik diversity at a glance:

ICX=Sony
KA*=Kodak



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pfile
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: mmalik]
      #5730172 - 03/13/13 11:52 AM

kodak went bankrupt a little over a year ago. i'm not sure if they have continued sensor R&D but supposedly they are ready to exit bankruptcy protection in a few months. i guess we'll know shortly.

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vdb
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: pfile]
      #5730193 - 03/13/13 12:04 PM

I thought they sold their ccd business ... no?

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s58y
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: vdb]
      #5730372 - 03/13/13 01:31 PM

Quote:

I thought they sold their ccd business ... no?




Apparently, the sensor business was sold to "Platinum Equities" in 2011.

It looks like they're coming out with new KAC-nnnnn chips now -- don't know if they're good for astro.


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elbee
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: vdb]
      #5730436 - 03/13/13 02:03 PM

kodak sold their image sensor business to a private equity firm, Platinum Equity long before they filed for bankruptcy. the new company that produces their chips is called Truesense Imaging. most likely the same engineers, plant, and equipment.

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pfile
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: elbee]
      #5730538 - 03/13/13 03:21 PM

ah okay, i missed that part or maybe i forgot. i hope they are still working on sensors!

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mmalik
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: pfile]
      #5730592 - 03/13/13 04:00 PM

Have included some reference links above.... Thx

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Ozy



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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: mmalik]
      #5731248 - 03/13/13 10:10 PM

I've only really shot with the KAI-11002, but if it's blind to Ha, I guess I don't know what I'm missing.

2hrs on my RCOS


2hrs on my FSQ


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elbee
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M new [Re: Ozy]
      #5731459 - 03/14/13 12:29 AM

i think that was a bit of an overstatement to highlight the chip is not super-sensitive in the Ha region but the KAI-11002 is not blind to Ha. Ozy -- who needs two hours? :-) This is 1x30min with a "small" 130mm refractor.

1x30min H-alpha with STL-11000M -- i think you can see plenty :-)

Edited by elbee (03/14/13 12:30 AM)


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jerryyyyy
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Re: Understanding STF-8300M & STT-8300M [Re: Hilmi]
      #5738666 - 03/17/13 01:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Jerry,

I have found that at 20 minute exposure, I do have less noise at -30 than at -25




Thanks. Maybe I'll give it a shot tonight. -20 only reads out at 20% power.





Besides, one of the reasons we paid the big bucks for these cameras was the RBI pre-flash feature. So I don't think we should worry much about it.




Can someone help me a bit with the RBI option? As you said this camera costs a lot and would like to optimize it, but it is also a steep learning curve... so would like to optimkize what I have to learn... easy to drop temp... that I get.

Is anyone using this option and, if so, how do you implement it? There was some ambiguous discussion on PixInsight.


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