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Allan...
sage


Reged: 10/24/12

Loc: Penticton B.C. Canada
Drilling holes in XT8 Dob
      #5619856 - 01/12/13 09:42 PM

I was wondering how best to (if I dare) drill a hole in my XT8 OTA....would like to put on one of those rubber navigation knobs on the top end (like the ones that come with the Intelliscopes and even on the XT4.5). Not sure why they left them off the classic models. I find that grabbing the tube isn't the best method. Think the knob would simplify things. I have visions of starting the drill bit and having it SLIP and oops....one nasty scratch on the OTA. One cant really expect to use a centre punch to start the hole. Anyone got any fool proof methods up their sleeve? thanks, Clare

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CosmoSat
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 07/24/09

Loc: India
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Allan...]
      #5619876 - 01/12/13 09:56 PM

Remove the optics along with their cells and holders and then do the drilling, one of these days u will hve to do that to clean them anyway.

Clear Skies!


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newtoskies
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 07/15/12

Loc: SE Ma.
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Allan...]
      #5619880 - 01/12/13 09:59 PM

Try using a piece of tape and a smaller drill bit first. Drill the pilot hole slow and the tape should keep the bit from sliding. Then use the appropriate bit you need for the screw.I use this trick for drilling in ceramic tile and it work all the time.

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dpwoos
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 10/18/06

Loc: United States
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: CosmoSat]
      #5619881 - 01/12/13 09:59 PM

Center punch as much as you want - what's the big deal?

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newtoskies
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 07/15/12

Loc: SE Ma.
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: newtoskies]
      #5619883 - 01/12/13 10:00 PM

Forgot...keep the OTA horizontal and place a towel in the tube to catch debris.

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JamesL
member


Reged: 10/19/12

Loc: Pacific,MO
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Allan...]
      #5619919 - 01/12/13 10:19 PM

Possibly you could lay down a piece of 2"blue painters tape from a new roll that is not too sticky over the area to be drilled. Then use a "sharp" center punch and with the palm of your hand (instead of a hammer) apply enough pressure to create a small recess for the "sharp" drill bit to ride in.
Hold drill as purpendicular as possible and when it plunges through hopfully nothing is on the other side. Some metal shards will fall inside, make sure they fall away from any optical surfaces of course.Then slowly remove the tape as to not pull any paint off. Then vaccume it out. This is just an idea of mine, maybe someone else that has done it will chime in. Please excuse my spelling...James


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: JamesL]
      #5620009 - 01/12/13 11:24 PM

It's a little scary drilling holes in a beautiful black steel tube but it is doable without much trouble. As others have said, use a center punch, start with a smaller drill. Make sure that there is something inside to catch any shards, I often put some grease where the drill will break through. Take it slow and easy, use a sharp drill and all will be well.

Jon


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JLovell
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 01/12/10

Loc: Georgia
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5620232 - 01/13/13 07:10 AM

If you are afraid of removing the optics, stand the scope vertically with the mirror end up, and have someone hold it so it won't fall over. You can put it on a chair or table to give you some room off the floor for the drill. Another possibility to help catch shavings is to put a strong magnet on the inside near, but not in the way of, the spot the drill will break through. The magnet will catch any shards that came loose on the inside. The vast majority will be outside the tube.

Another thing to try, if you have vice grips or a similar clamp, is clamping a small nut or washer with a small hole to the rim of the scope to keep the bit from wandering too much. Drill through the hole. A piece of blue tape underneath will prevent any scratches from the washer/nut and the vice grips. If you use a nut, use one you don't need, as you'll likely damage the threads.


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CosmoSat
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 07/24/09

Loc: India
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Allan...]
      #5620440 - 01/13/13 10:19 AM

Quote:

I find that grabbing the tube isn't the best method.




But why do u think grabbing the tube isn't the best method? I think otherwise...that grabbing the tube gives more control when nudging at high powers.. In fact while moving the telescope I habitually hold both ends of the tube to have maximum control on the motion.


Clear Skies!


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NeilMac
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/25/10

Loc: MedHat, AB, Canada
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: CosmoSat]
      #5620449 - 01/13/13 10:23 AM

grabbing the tube is what I do, I find it awkward to grab the knob.

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Jim Nelson
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/10/05

Loc: SE Michigan
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: NeilMac]
      #5620466 - 01/13/13 10:34 AM

When I had the knob, I rarely used it. I just grabbed the tube.

If you haven't had personal experience with the knob, I wouldn't go through the effort of installing one and drilling a hole to do so.

(Conversely, ff you have and know you want one, by all means go to it!)


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Atl
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 04/13/12

Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Jim Nelson]
      #5620475 - 01/13/13 10:40 AM

I grab the tube...a knob seems like an unnecessary extra...just more weight.

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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: CosmoSat]
      #5620477 - 01/13/13 10:41 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I find that grabbing the tube isn't the best method.




But why do u think grabbing the tube isn't the best method? I think otherwise...that grabbing the tube gives more control when nudging at high powers.. In fact while moving the telescope I habitually hold both ends of the tube to have maximum control on the motion.


Clear Skies!




One problem with grabbing the tube is that just touching the metal tube with your warm hand is likely to cause tube currents that disrupt the image. These are not big tube currents but at higher magnifications they are sufficient to affect the view for a minuter or more.

If I am going after the best possible views with a metal tubed dob, I wear gloves even if it is not cold to insulate my hand from the scope...

If I am using two hands as is sometimes necessary to track near the zenith, one hand is on the tube for the altitude motion, the other is on the base to rotate the azimuth. The base provides more leverage, finer control and does not have the possibility of creating tube currents.

As far as drilling holes. I do with the tube horizontal so the filling, or anything for that matter, cannot fall into the optics. Laying the tube on a couch provides solid backing.

Jon


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Atl
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 04/13/12

Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5620479 - 01/13/13 10:42 AM

True. My tube is sonotube...but Orion uses metal.

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drewp
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 05/19/07

Loc: 41.5 deg north moline ill
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Atl]
      #5620688 - 01/13/13 12:29 PM

i have never heard of heat from the hand having any effect on tube currents. turn on your fan and forget the knob.

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Haas
sage


Reged: 11/22/12

Loc: Wis., USA
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: drewp]
      #5620722 - 01/13/13 12:48 PM

Couldn't center punching, create a rather large indent on the tube? I know you want a dimple for the drill to "find", but it seems there's a risk that a large portion of the tube could dent inwards from the impact.

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planet earth
Pooh-Bah
****

Reged: 09/07/10

Loc: Ontario Canada
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Atl]
      #5620735 - 01/13/13 12:54 PM

Quote:

a knob seems like an unnecessary extra...just more weight.




Well if you use an old brass door knob and hang your coat on it, what do you expect?
Sam


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howard929
Member
*****

Reged: 01/02/11

Loc: Low End of High Ground
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Allan...]
      #5620736 - 01/13/13 12:54 PM

A Strap-A-Handle or two would be an ok work around to drilling as well as a way to carry the OTA.

Edited by howard929 (01/13/13 12:55 PM)


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StarCurious
member


Reged: 12/24/12

Loc: York Region, Ontario
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: howard929]
      #5620817 - 01/13/13 01:42 PM

Try Google suction cup handle, and found something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Vacuum-Suction-Handle-Dent-Puller/dp/B003NU0EM8/ref=pd_...

Don't know if it would be too strong and distort your OTA.


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jimdp
journeyman


Reged: 06/17/12

Loc: Vista, CA
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Allan...]
      #5620858 - 01/13/13 01:59 PM

J b weld with a wooden knob...now were talking custom..

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kfiscus
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 07/09/12

Loc: Albert Lea, MN, USA
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: jimdp]
      #5621020 - 01/13/13 03:05 PM

PM sent.

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Allan...
sage


Reged: 10/24/12

Loc: Penticton B.C. Canada
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: kfiscus]
      #5621171 - 01/13/13 04:31 PM

Got er!

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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: drewp]
      #5621458 - 01/13/13 07:04 PM

Quote:

i have never heard of heat from the hand having any effect on tube currents. turn on your fan and forget the knob.




A tube current caused by your body heat is not something you hear, it is something that you can see through the eyepiece.

To see the effect of your body heat, you need to start with a thermally stable scope. Point the scope at bright star using a moderate magnification (200x) and defocus the image, place your hand in front of the scope and you can see the heat rising. If the seeing is sufficiently stable you can see the effect of just touching the tube with your warm hand.

I have owned my trusted 10 inch F/5 Made in Taiwan GSO Dob for about 10 years. On an excellent night, it is capable of resolving double stars at the Dawes Limit.. 0.5 arc-seconds, about one fifth the separation of the double-double. Using gloves is one trick I learned that makes this possible.

Jon


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kenrenard
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/13/12

Loc: Dunmore, PA
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5621471 - 01/13/13 07:12 PM

Quote:

Quote:

i have never heard of heat from the hand having any effect on tube currents. turn on your fan and forget the knob.




A tube current caused by your body heat is not something you hear, it is something that you can see through the eyepiece.

To see the effect of your body heat, you need to start with a thermally stable scope. Point the scope at bright star using a moderate magnification (200x) and defocus the image, place your hand in front of the scope and you can see the heat rising. If the seeing is sufficiently stable you can see the effect of just touching the tube with your warm hand.

I have owned my trusted 10 inch F/5 Made in Taiwan GSO Dob for about 10 years. On an excellent night, it is capable of resolving double stars at the Dawes Limit.. 0.5 arc-seconds, about one fifth the separation of the double-double. Using gloves is one trick I learned that makes this possible.

Jon





That's interesting. Jon you are full of wisdom. I wouldn't even think of that. I thought I was clever using small magnets as counterweights and using a towel over my head to block out stray light.

It would be interesting to find some more tricks that experienced observers use. Sky and Telescope just this month had an observing article with using an eyepatch to dark adapt. I was thinking about it but my kids might think I am a pirate.

Ken


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skinnyonce
super member
*****

Reged: 03/23/11

Loc: ohio
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5621488 - 01/13/13 07:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

i have never heard of heat from the hand having any effect on tube currents. turn on your fan and forget the knob.




A tube current caused by your body heat is not something you hear, it is something that you can see through the eye front of the scope and you can see the heat rising. just touching the tube with your warm hand.
Jon




Just wear a glove then


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Mxplx2
sage


Reged: 09/12/12

Loc: NE PA USA
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Allan...]
      #5621524 - 01/13/13 07:52 PM

There are glues like pliobond and silicone adhesive that hold well under normal use, but can be removed with a little effort, in case your not happy with the knob.

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JLovell
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 01/12/10

Loc: Georgia
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Mxplx2]
      #5621802 - 01/13/13 10:12 PM

I love the knob on mine, and use it exactly as Jon described, one hand on the knob for alt, and one on the left side bearing of the base. I can push with one hand and pull with the other to give the scope a pure torque, and it makes the az movements smoother and much easier to control.

The knob also helped my instantly visualize how to move my scope to track objects. When I grab the knob when looking through the scope, I imaging I'm reaching into what I'm viewing, and grabbing the star or planet, and that I'm dragging it around. As soon as I realized that, I could track everything quite easily. Before that, I'd frequently go the wrong way.


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Bill Weir
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 06/01/04

Loc: Metchosin (Victoria), Canada
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: JLovell]
      #5621882 - 01/13/13 11:07 PM

Getting back to the drilling fear. Get a 1" thick block of wood and drill through it. Now you have something to hold against the tube while wrapping your fingers into the tube. It will guide the bit and prevent it from slipping. Straddle the tube to hold it steady and away you go. I've done this when I drilled a couple of holes when replacing the focuser on my 6" Orion.

Holding the block of wood on the inside of the tube gave some support when doing a light tap do set the point before begining the drilling.

Bill


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Achernar
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Allan...]
      #5622240 - 01/14/13 08:13 AM

I wouldn't use a center punch, but a piece of angle iron in the shape of a C with a hole drilled through it would work as a drill guide. So would a piece of wood with a vee cut out of one side, with the guide hole drilled at the vee. Start with a small drill bit to make a pilot hole, then follow up with the full sized drill bit. An alternative is to use a drill press, you would want to make a cradle to keep the tube from moving. If you go that route, you will want to have someone assist you in holding the tube. Otherwise, a cordless or corded hand held drill is how I would do it. It goes without saying that I would remove the optics before doing this. Just remove the spider and primary mirror cell with the mirrors in them, drill your hole, add the navigation handle, then replace and re-collimate the optics in the tube.

Taras


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kenrenard
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/13/12

Loc: Dunmore, PA
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Achernar]
      #5622332 - 01/14/13 09:36 AM

Clare,
I have the same XT8. After reading this. I am going to put a knob on my tube as well. Hope your drilling goes smooth.


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JLovell
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 01/12/10

Loc: Georgia
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: kenrenard]
      #5622415 - 01/14/13 10:20 AM

Another thought... Try removing one of the screws that hold the metal ring at the top of the tube. My scope has such a screw about 1/4 inch away from the knob mine came with. Take that screw to a hardware store to figure out the size and thread pitch. Get another screw the same size and pitch, and the type of knob with a hole all the way through so that the screw installs in that hole as opposed to from the inside. Get the new screw of appropriate length that it protrudes from the knob exactly the length of the original screw minus the head. Then simply screw the new screw with the knob back into the hole that is already there. No drilling required!

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SteveG
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 09/27/06

Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: JLovell]
      #5622726 - 01/14/13 01:50 PM

As others have said, it's an easy install. Use masking tape on the inside, start with a little hole and then drill the larger hole. Here's a nice little knob:
http://www.opticsmart.com/accessories/upgrades-and-tweaks.html


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NeilMac
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/25/10

Loc: MedHat, AB, Canada
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: SteveG]
      #5622771 - 01/14/13 02:19 PM

As what SteveG says. When dealing with slippery surfaces, you tape them then use a sharp small (1mm) drill used for metals, slowly apply pressing lightly. Then the size you require for the screw mount.

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stargazer424
sage


Reged: 10/03/05

Loc: Central NJ
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: NeilMac]
      #5622884 - 01/14/13 03:28 PM

Just the title of this post makes me cringe. I can't imagine drilling holes in mine...good luck, however you do it.

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Allan...
sage


Reged: 10/24/12

Loc: Penticton B.C. Canada
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: SteveG]
      #5624909 - 01/15/13 06:09 PM

Just ordered one of those Soft grip guide knobs; thanks for the tip, Steve. I could've gone to the hardware store and picked out something that would work (and cost less) but this one looks good and I know it will do the job. Got lots of advice now on the drilling job, so not worried. thanks, Clare

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kenrenard
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/13/12

Loc: Dunmore, PA
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Allan...]
      #5629400 - 01/18/13 06:42 AM Attachment (9 downloads)

Clare,
I installed the same knob last night. I attached some pictures and hopefully this helps anyone thinking of doing the same.

The first step was removing the band across the top of the tube. This is held in place with some phillips head screws. Next I removed the tube from the bas and set the tube open end down on a couch (My wife was not crazy about this idea!) I used electrical tape on both sides where I was going to drill and started with the smallest drill bit I have.

Edited by kenrenard (01/18/13 06:47 AM)


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kenrenard
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/13/12

Loc: Dunmore, PA
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: kenrenard]
      #5629410 - 01/18/13 06:52 AM Attachment (9 downloads)

The next step I moved to a 7/32 bit which was perfect size for the knob screw. I used a damp paper towel to catch any drill droppings from the end. Then I used another wet paper towel followed by a dry one to wipe out the tube. Installing the knob was one screw so that was easy.

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kenrenard
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/13/12

Loc: Dunmore, PA
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: kenrenard]
      #5629413 - 01/18/13 07:00 AM Attachment (12 downloads)

The finished product is shown below. I ended up placing the knob a bit off center which is where I wanted it for movements while at the eyepiece. I ordered the knob from opticsmart.com and it arrived in less than two days. I also installed a set of Bob's knobs which were extremely easy to install. I think the both items are easy upgrades for a beginner to install.

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NeilMac
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/25/10

Loc: MedHat, AB, Canada
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: kenrenard]
      #5629667 - 01/18/13 10:45 AM

I like your secondary mirror adjustment screws
Good job on the knob


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kenrenard
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/13/12

Loc: Dunmore, PA
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: NeilMac]
      #5629671 - 01/18/13 10:49 AM

Thanks I ordered the secondary screws from Bob's Knobs they are the 30mm length knobs. Bob e-mailed me the day I ordered and verified the right length. They arrived in 2 days with instructions they took only a few minutes to install.

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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Allan...]
      #5629830 - 01/18/13 12:04 PM

Quote:

I was wondering how best to (if I dare) drill a hole in my XT8 OTA....would like to put on one of those rubber navigation knobs on the top end (like the ones that come with the Intelliscopes and even on the XT4.5). Not sure why they left them off the classic models. I find that grabbing the tube isn't the best method. Think the knob would simplify things. I have visions of starting the drill bit and having it SLIP and oops....one nasty scratch on the OTA. One cant really expect to use a centre punch to start the hole. Anyone got any fool proof methods up their sleeve? thanks, Clare




Be careful, its a slippery slope. Yea, it all starts out with a drill bit; before you know it, you'll be using chain saws and arc welders...........

To be truthful, I use that knob maybe 30% of the time. Usually AFTER i've gotten the object in the FOV for nudging.


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C_Moon
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 10/23/09

Loc: Beneath the arms of Cassiopeia
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5633778 - 01/20/13 06:55 PM

I've drilled a hole in my XT8 for a wire to pass through to a homemade secondary dew heater. I did not remove either the primary or secondary. I put the scope in horizontal position, with the open end slightly pointed towards the ground. I used a sharp drill bit and was able to drill the hole very quickly with no trouble at the size I wanted the first time. There were very few shavings, but they were easy to sweep out and none got on the secondary or even near the primary.

I was nervous about this but fortunate to have an experienced friend from my astro club help me out.

Good luck!


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Allan...
sage


Reged: 10/24/12

Loc: Penticton B.C. Canada
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: kenrenard]
      #5657076 - 02/01/13 08:19 PM

I got up the nerve today to drill the 1/4" hole in the OTA of my XT8. Masking tape; made up a jig, and started with a very small drill bit; and moved slowly upwards until I ended up with 1/4". The OTA was surpisingly tough to drill through; (either that or my drill bits were very dull..lol). Pointed it downward to avoid filings inside; removed the outer trim ring and did the deed. The finished product is great; now all I need is clear skies...! Thanks, Clare

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kenrenard
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/13/12

Loc: Dunmore, PA
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Allan...]
      #5657085 - 02/01/13 08:22 PM

Quote:

I got up the nerve today to drill the 1/4" hole in the OTA of my XT8. Masking tape; made up a jig, and started with a very small drill bit; and moved slowly upwards until I ended up with 1/4". The OTA was surpisingly tough to drill through; (either that or my drill bits were very dull..lol). Pointed it downward to avoid filings inside; removed the outer trim ring and did the deed. The finished product is great; now all I need is clear skies...! Thanks, Clare




Clare,
I agree it was tough I thought as well. I had a pretty sharp bit. The handle is really nice I find myself using it all the time. Glad you got the hole drilled.


Ken


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Allan...
sage


Reged: 10/24/12

Loc: Penticton B.C. Canada
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: NeilMac]
      #5657086 - 02/01/13 08:23 PM Attachment (10 downloads)

I got up the nerve today to drill the 1/4" hole in the OTA (started off smaller and moved slowly upwards toward the 1/4"); used masking tape, made a wooden jig and all went well. The OTA was surprisinly tough to drill through (either that or my drill bits were very dull...lol). All worked out in the end. Navigation knob installed and looks great. Now all I need is clear skies to try it out. thanks, Clare

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NeilMac
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/25/10

Loc: MedHat, AB, Canada
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Allan...]
      #5657390 - 02/01/13 11:40 PM

if i was to put one on i would choose the 3:00 position, was thinking about it a few days ago. the 6:00 position i rarely use and normally move it from the side position.

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Allan...
sage


Reged: 10/24/12

Loc: Penticton B.C. Canada
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: NeilMac]
      #5658443 - 02/02/13 04:27 PM

Neil, if you have an XT8I, you should have one on your scope already. Isn't it in about the 5:30 O'clock position? Mine is in around 5 O'clock position, a bit closer to the spider van knob than I wanted but its exactly where the Manufacturer reccommended to put it (2" down and 2.5" toward you, from the bottom seam). It works fine for me. I think that if I had put it at 3 o'clock, my arm would get cramped from being bent at the elbow too much. Just my thoughts on it. Personal preference, obviously. I didn't want to get too close to that bottom seam when drilling. Clare

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NeilMac
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/25/10

Loc: MedHat, AB, Canada
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Allan...]
      #5658449 - 02/02/13 04:31 PM

yes, its at 6 oclock position. Il check next time.

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NeilMac
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/25/10

Loc: MedHat, AB, Canada
Re: Drilling holes in XT8 Dob new [Re: Allan...]
      #5659824 - 02/03/13 11:49 AM Attachment (7 downloads)

yup 5:30 is the standard.

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