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Equipment Discussions >> Video and Electronically Assisted Astronomy

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telfish
sage
*****

Reged: 11/17/10

Loc: Adirondack Mountains NY
Re: Samsung SCB-4000/2000 vs Canon T2i sensitivity new [Re: Moromete]
      #5615571 - 01/10/13 01:42 PM

These are the specs he is quoting me at the same price as the W model.

BVO616S

Ultra High Resolution Wide Dynamic Range Box Camera

Features

1/3" Sony Ex-view HAD CCD II Image Sensor
Digital Wide Dynamic Range
Horizontal resolution of up to 700 TVL
Sens-up X1024 & minimum illumination of 0.0001 lux
Built-in automatic IR cut filter
Day/night mode to enable 24 hour continuous surveillance
8 times digital zoom
48 zones motion detection
24 zones privacy masking
Intelligent 3D DNR for reducing HDD capacity
Built-in OSD
Built-in balun
Supports dual power supply: DC 10V - 40V / AC 7V - 40V
Specifications

Model BVO616S
Video Standard NTSC PAL
Image Sensor SONY 1/3" Ex-view HAD CCD II
Total Picture Elements 1020(H) X 508(V) 1020(H) X 596(V)
Effective Picture Elements 976(H) X 494(V) 976(H) X 582(V)
Horizontal Resolution 700 TVL
Min. illumination (approx.) Color:0.1 Lux@F1.2(50IRE) / 0.0001 Lux(Sens Up On)
B/W:0.08Lux@F1.2(50IRE) / 0.00008 Lux(Sens Up On)
Synchronizing System Internal, AC Line Lock
Video S/N Ratio 52dB
Digital Zoom 8X
Day / Night AUTO / DAY / NIGHT / EXT1 / EXT2
High Speed Shutter 1/60(1/50) ~ 1/15K
Flickerless Mode ON / OFF
Digital Wide Dynamic Range OFF / HIGH / MID / LOW
Auto Gain Control (AGC) Off ~ 36dB (3dB Unit)
IR-Cut Filter Built-in
Iris ALC(DC Auto Iris) / ELC(Off/On ( ~ 1/200K sec))
Sens-up X 1,024
Smart IR OFF / ON
White Balance ATW1 / ATW2 / AWC / MANUAL / INDOOR / OUTDOOR
Digital Noise Reduction (2D+3D) HIGH / MID / LOW
Camera ID OFF / ON (Max. 20 char per line)
Motion Detection 48 Zones
Privacy Masking 24 Zones
Backlight Compensation (BLC) OFF / BLC / HLC
Options DIS, PAN/TILT
Video Output VBS 1.0V p-p (75ohm Terminated)
Fast Connection Built-in Balun
OSD Language English / Simplified Chinese / French / Portuguese / Spanish / Japanese / German / Russian
Power Input DC 10V - 40V / AC 7V - 40V
Power Consumption Less than 1.5W
Operating Temperature ‐10C ~ +50C
Operating Humidity Less than 90%
Shell Material Metal
Dimensions (mm) 107 x 61 x 55
Gross Weight (g) 531


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: Samsung SCB-4000/2000 vs Canon T2i sensitivity new [Re: telfish]
      #5615630 - 01/10/13 02:22 PM

Make me understand please. He is selling both models or he says W model he sells is identical to S model which isn't on Aliexpress?

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telfish
sage
*****

Reged: 11/17/10

Loc: Adirondack Mountains NY
Re: Samsung SCB-4000/2000 vs Canon T2i sensitivity new [Re: Moromete]
      #5615643 - 01/10/13 02:30 PM

Yep,

He is saying that although the specs he gave me are different the camera and price is the same!

Latest confirmation.

Dear terry
BVO616S $187
regards
zesan yi

So who is going to be brave enough to be the one brave enough to order one?


Terry


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: Samsung SCB-4000/2000 vs Canon T2i sensitivity new [Re: telfish]
      #5615661 - 01/10/13 02:41 PM

Than why isn't BVO616S on Aliexpress website?

That's strange. I don't trust chinese.


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telfish
sage
*****

Reged: 11/17/10

Loc: Adirondack Mountains NY
Re: Samsung SCB-4000/2000 vs Canon T2i sensitivity new [Re: Moromete]
      #5615663 - 01/10/13 02:42 PM

And that is the mystery!

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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: Samsung SCB-4000/2000 vs Canon T2i sensitivity new [Re: telfish]
      #5615670 - 01/10/13 02:48 PM

Thx for info.

Tell him to put BVO616S on Aliexpressss website and than we'll order it. If he wants to sell it he has to make the ordering process clear and transparent for the customer. Push him to do it because he has an interesting product. Ask him if will remove the IR filter on request.


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telfish
sage
*****

Reged: 11/17/10

Loc: Adirondack Mountains NY
Re: Samsung SCB-4000/2000 vs Canon T2i sensitivity new [Re: Moromete]
      #5615739 - 01/10/13 03:35 PM

Will do.

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mattflastro
Vendor - Astrovideo Systems


Reged: 07/31/09

Loc: Brevard County , FL
Re: Samsung SCB-4000/2000 vs Canon T2i sensitivity new [Re: telfish]
      #5616640 - 01/11/13 03:38 AM

Quote:

Yep,

He is saying that although the specs he gave me are different the camera and price is the same!

Latest confirmation.

Dear terry
BVO616S $187
regards
zesan yi

So who is going to be brave enough to be the one brave enough to order one?


Terry



Guys,
Before jumping head first and buying sight unseen an unknown $200 camera, take a moment and reason a little:

- this camera has exactly the same specs as the Lntech and a million others .
- it does NOT have FIXED MANUAL GAIN .
- the manual clearly states AGC adjustable in steps of 3 dB . It doesn't say MGC in 3dB steps . For people not used with electronics specifications, this might sound the same as manual gain but it is not.
- AGC adjustable in steps of 3dB simply means YOU SET THE AUTOMATIC GAIN CONTROL LIMIT in 3dB increments . The camera is still doing AGC = AUTOMATIC GAIN CONTROL . The value you set is the maximum gain the AGC is allowed to use , starting from the lowest value that's possible in that camera. It doesn't do AGC within a 3dB window . An AGC confined to a 3dB window doesn't exist .
- in order for a camra to have manual gain control, the specification should say something like AGC = OFF/MANUAL/AGC STEPS of 3dB , or OFF/FIXED 3dB steps/AGC 3dB steps . This camera DOES NOT HAVE MANUAL GAIN CONTROL.
- in order for a camera to be usable for astro it needs other qualities as well, such as :
- adjustable GAMMA
- low noise circuits , especially AMP-GLOW elimination. Security video cams have ALL amp-glow as made by the factory .

Fortunately there is a very easy and simple way to tell if this camera is worth buying .
ASK THE VENDOR WHAT DSP is inside the camera. There aren't that many DSP makers and models on the market and their specs are available in much greater detail than a single page camera datasheet . Once you know the DSP model, we can find its user manual, see the details of the OSD menu and exactly what the camera does.
I would NEVER buy a camera without knowing what DSP in used in it .

Good luck with your camera buy and please report back if the camera lived up to your expectations of manual gain.


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: Samsung SCB-4000/2000 vs Canon T2i sensitivity new [Re: mattflastro]
      #5616712 - 01/11/13 05:33 AM

Damn it, you must be right again!

Your technical explanation seems logical.

I thought I was right because in the tabel from here http://www.aliexpress.com/item/BAVONO-CCTV-700TVL-OSD-Menu-Ultra-WDR-Gun-Box-... says AGC = Level Setting.
Than I saw on Bavono's website that AGC is adjustable 3dB steps and I concluded that you set it manually with a fixed value.
I haven't thought that by level setting you establish only the upper limit and the AGC fluctuates as it wants between odB and user's fixed upper limit.


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telfish
sage
*****

Reged: 11/17/10

Loc: Adirondack Mountains NY
Re: Samsung SCB-4000/2000 vs Canon T2i sensitivity new [Re: Moromete]
      #5616798 - 01/11/13 07:59 AM

Quote:

Damn it, you must be right again!

Your technical explanation seems logical.

I thought I was right because in the tabel from here http://www.aliexpress.com/item/BAVONO-CCTV-700TVL-OSD-Menu-Ultra-WDR-Gun-Box-... says AGC = Level Setting.
Than I saw on Bavono's website that AGC is adjustable 3dB steps and I concluded that you set it manually with a fixed value.
I haven't thought that by level setting you establish only the upper limit and the AGC fluctuates as it wants between odB and user's fixed upper limit.




Oh well, if anyone still wishes to try it here is the buying link. I will ask him what DSP is in it just in case someone is interested.

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Ultra-High-Resolution-Wide-Dynamic-Ra...


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: Samsung SCB-4000/2000 vs Canon T2i sensitivity new [Re: telfish]
      #5616855 - 01/11/13 08:52 AM

Excellent job tellfish! Bravo!

If possible besides DSP, ask him the AGC is manual or works like mattflastro explained.


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: Samsung SCB-4000/2000 vs Canon T2i sensitivity new [Re: Moromete]
      #5622194 - 01/14/13 07:11 AM

What do you say about these models guys:

http://www.cameras-cctv.com/fs/doc/product/58ep-july-18-2012-manual.pdf

http://www.dahuasecurity.com/products/ca-f781e--92.html


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mattflastro
Vendor - Astrovideo Systems


Reged: 07/31/09

Loc: Brevard County , FL
Re: Samsung SCB-4000/2000 vs Canon T2i sensitivity new [Re: Moromete]
      #5622334 - 01/14/13 09:38 AM

Quote:

What do you say about these models guys:

http://www.cameras-cctv.com/fs/doc/product/58ep-july-18-2012-manual.pdf

http://www.dahuasecurity.com/products/ca-f781e--92.html




The first one appears to still have only AGC , no manual settings. It also appears to have only x512 sens-up in auto mode, not manual. When you set sens-up to x512, the camera doesn't do 512 . It does what it decides in order to have the average image exposed the way it decides. The samsung or lntech are used by setting sens-up to off and setting exposure to slow shutter mode, user set value up to x1024 ( lntech ). This camera doesn't have a slow shutter manual setting .

The second camera has a Sony Effio-S DSP. I have such a camera and tested it a lot. I really wanted to make it work because the Sony name is a better guarantee of quality than Lntech for example. But the camera doesn't want to cooperate. The Effio DSP suffers from some excessive DSP processing that quickly saturates the bright areas of the image and makes it lose all color . Again, it's the DSP attempting to bring the whole screen average brightness to certain levels that may be useful for a surveillance video camera but it kills all color and washes out detail for astro. There is a slightly better version, Effio-P , which goes to x512 sens-up (the Effio-S only does x256 ) and due to the longer time , lower AGC can be used but it's still basically the same problem.


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: Samsung SCB-4000/2000 vs Canon T2i sensitivity new [Re: mattflastro]
      #5622481 - 01/14/13 11:15 AM

I have read on forums that Dahua makes better quality products, as are in general Korean products than Chinese ones (at least that's my impression).

OK, than what about this one http://www.d-max.co.kr/product/manual/dcc-600f.pdf ?

D-MAX camera's AGC seems to be manual so maybe the cctv could be more useful at 512x with AGC On than Lntech at 1024x with AGC Off.


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mattflastro
Vendor - Astrovideo Systems


Reged: 07/31/09

Loc: Brevard County , FL
Re: Samsung SCB-4000/2000 vs Canon T2i sensitivity new [Re: Moromete]
      #5622503 - 01/14/13 11:28 AM

Quote:

I have read on forums that Dahua makes better quality products, as are in general Korean products than Chinese ones (at least that's my impression).

OK, than what about this one http://www.d-max.co.kr/product/manual/dcc-600f.pdf ?

D-MAX camera's AGC seems to be manual so maybe the cctv could be more useful at 512x with AGC On than Lntech at 1024x with AGC Off.



I spoke with those guys about 2 months ago. The AGC is not manual , sens-up only to x512 . They use a little known Korean DSP K-600 or KC-600 (don't recall exactly off the top of my head). Feature set seems about the same as all the others.
As far as Lntech being Chinese, all I have to say is that I don't really know who makes what parts of those cameras. The DSP is designed by a Korean company . The vendors I dealt with when buying Lntech stuff are in Hong-Kong .The stuff I received from them came from Korea and Hong-Kong based on the waybills , customs declarations that were attached etc.


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: Samsung SCB-4000/2000 vs Canon T2i sensitivity new [Re: mattflastro]
      #5622514 - 01/14/13 11:34 AM

Please help me understand. Look at page no. 13 in D-Max manual. Since you can set AGC at 0-255 that means AGC is still not manual?

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mattflastro
Vendor - Astrovideo Systems


Reged: 07/31/09

Loc: Brevard County , FL
Re: Samsung SCB-4000/2000 vs Canon T2i sensitivity new [Re: Moromete]
      #5622602 - 01/14/13 12:34 PM

Quote:

Please help me understand. Look at page no. 13 in D-Max manual. Since you can set AGC at 0-255 that means AGC is still not manual?



AGC means automatc gain control and is not manual. The only difference between all the cameras you found is the number and size of steps that the upper limit of gain can be set by the user for the AGC . Typical AFE chips have programmable gains in the range of 36 to 46 dB in very small increments, as low as 0.1 dB and in some cases 0.015dB . That is roughly 300+ to 3000+ microsteps to set the AGC upper limit, so the DSP programmers decided to split this huge and useless number of steps into fewer larger ones , hence the low/mid/high variations , 0 to 100 or 0-255 . Please understand this, there is no more manual gain on current video surveillance cameras since the advent of onboard ARM based 32 bit DSP-s with OSD .


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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: Samsung SCB-4000/2000 vs Canon T2i sensitivity [Re: mattflastro]
      #5622610 - 01/14/13 12:43 PM

Now I understood. Thank you for explaining. AGC myth busted!

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Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: Samsung SCB-4000/2000 vs Canon T2i sensitivity new [Re: Moromete]
      #5629276 - 01/18/13 02:27 AM

Does any Android application exist which allows the user to transform his Android device in a portable LiveView DVR for his CCTV/ analog astro camera by means of a USB cable connection?

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mattflastro
Vendor - Astrovideo Systems


Reged: 07/31/09

Loc: Brevard County , FL
Re: Samsung SCB-4000/2000 vs Canon T2i sensitivity new [Re: Moromete]
      #5629424 - 01/18/13 07:16 AM

Quote:

Does any Android application exist which allows the user to transform his Android device in a portable LiveView DVR for his CCTV/ analog astro camera by means of a USB cable connection?



I don't know of any Android supported USB frame grabber .
However, there are other devices that record analog video on Flash memory cards.


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