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mark8888
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/24/10

Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: droid]
      #5662586 - 02/04/13 10:11 PM

Just read an article/graph which is pretty on point for this thread. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/02/04/science/girls-lead-in-science-e...

Girls Lead in Science Exam, but Not in the United States
For years — and especially since 2005, when Lawrence H. Summers, then president of Harvard, made his notorious comments about women’s aptitude — researchers have been searching for ways to explain why there are so many more men than women in the top ranks of science.

Now comes an intriguing clue, in the form of a test given in 65 developed countries by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. It finds that among a representative sample of 15-year-olds around the world, girls generally outperform boys in science — but not in the United States.

What explains the gap? Andreas Schleicher, who oversees the tests for the O.E.C.D., says different countries offer different incentives for learning science and math...


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roscoe
curmudgeon
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Reged: 02/04/09

Loc: NW Mass, inches from VT
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: killdabuddha]
      #5662761 - 02/05/13 12:36 AM

Quote:

BTW, the common practice today is to drop the male/female gender suffix. Astronomess? LOL.




With tongue firmly in cheek, I would like to point out that right here in this forum there is a non-gender-specific individual who refers to their non-gender-specific self as....... an 'Astronomess'.......

R


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killdabuddha
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 08/26/11

Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: la200o]
      #5662872 - 02/05/13 03:19 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

How do you know I wouldn't? And what are those cultures where women fight side-by-side with men? Maybe on TV. . .and now and then in cases of desperation (Russian female snipers, VC guerrellas. . . ).

Clear skies,

Bill




Israel and soon, USA!




Israel: desperation (and as far as I know, women are still not allowed in line infantry units). *edited by moderator*
Clear skies,
Bill

p.s. to Carol: yep




Phung Thi Chinh took part in the battles of 43 AD and delivered her child at the battlefront. Other women involved in the fighting included Hoang Thieu Hoa, General Le Chan, Thanh Thien Princess and Cao Thi Lien.

In 1997 the earliest known women warrior burial mounds were excavated in southern Russia.

About 20% of Scythian-Sarmatian 'warrior graves' on the lower Don and lower Volga contained females dressed for battle in the same manner as men, a phenomenon that probably inspired the Greek tales about the Amazons.

Between 373 and 380 AD Queen Mavia she led the Saracen into battles against Rome in Palestine, Phoenicia and Egypt.

Trieu Thi Trinh fought against the Chinese in Vietnam in 248AD.

In 2004, the 2,000 year old remains of an Iranian female warrior were found in the northwestern Iranian city of Tabriz.

Fu Hao was one of the many wives of King Wu Ding of the Shang Dynasty and also served as a military general and high priestess.

In terms of "normal" women fighting as part of a regular army, one of the earliest examples known is Nusaybah bint Ka'ab; the first female to fight battles in defence of Islam and Prophet Muhammad. After her, many others followed. This was over a millennium before women took active roles in modern western armies.

Princess Pingyang raised and commanded her own army in the revolt against the Sui Dynasty.

A bronze age cuirass for a woman dated between the 11th and 8th century BC was found at Haute Marne in the Netherlands.

The Spartan princess Arachidamia fought Pyrrhus (of the phrase "pyrrhic victory") with a group of Spartan females under her command, and killed several soldiers before perishing.

The Celtic Queen Boudicca with her two daughters led a revolt against the Roman Empire in 60 AD but was decisively defeated at at the Battle of Watling Street.

Emilia Plater was a Polish noblewoman who led a revolt against Russia.

The Roman Empire was known to sometimes have women fighting, called gladiatrix, in gladiator games.

The Dahomey people, who live in western Africa also established an all female militia, who served as royal bodyguards to the king.

The majority of Native American tribes possessed respected and well established women leaders of their militia. However, the Europeans and early American men refused to deal with Native American women on such matters and so their significance was not understood or appreciated until relatively recently.

The Rig-Veda, an ancient sacred poem of India, written between 3500 and 1800 BC recounts the story of a warrior, Queen Vishpla, who lost her leg in battle, was fitted with an iron prosthesis, and returned to battle.

In South Asia and the Indian Subcontinent, there are records of women who have led armies into battle.

In 366AD Empress Jingo Kogo led a Japanese invasion of Korea. Empress Jingo was pregnant when she invaded Korea and therefore had to have adjustable armor made.

In 39 AD Trung Trac and Trung Nhi led a Vietnamese uprising against the Chinese. They gained control of 65 citadels and reigned as queens until 43 AD. Their mother Tran Thi Doan (also known as Lady Man Thien) trained them in military skills and led troops to support them.

Zabibi and her successor Samsi reigned as Arabian warrior queens from approximately 740 to 720 BC. Both commanded armies containing large numbers of women.

Dihya al-Kahina was a warrior queen who led Berber troops against invading Arabs around 694AD.

In 200AD, Japan was ruled by the warrior-priestess-queen Himoko (or Pimiko).

On the walls of Hittite fortresses dating to 1300 BC paintings of woman warriors carrying axes and swords.

Rani Lakshmibai of Jhansi was one of the leading figures of the Indian Rebellion of 1857 and was described by the British as "remarkable for her beauty, cleverness and perseverance", and that she had been "the most dangerous of all the rebel leaders".

In 529 BC Queen Tomyris of the Massagetai defeated the Persians.

The Biblical Judge, Deborah, was a military leader during the occupation of Canaan 1250 -1050 BC.

Unniyarcca was a famed warrior princess who lived in the south Indian state of Kerala during the 16th century.

Kittur Chennamma, queen of the princely state of Kittur, led a rebellion against the British decades before the 1857 uprising.

Indonesia counts a number of female warriors among its national heroines.

Between 1570 and 1546 BC Queen Aahhotep I of Egypt led armies against Thebes and helped to unite Egypt under one rule.

Cut Nyak Dhien and Cut Nyak Meutia waged a nationalist war and jihad against the Dutch during the Aceh War at the turn of the 20th Century.

Another Indonesian national heroine, Martha Christina Tiahahu, joined a guerrilla war against the Dutch colonial government as a teenager, in 1817.



Howz that Mr. Bill? These are only a few particular women and cultures that we know about because of their notoriety. There are many more notable examples, and how many more that will never be known because they were mere infantry? Desperation indeed. Non-infantry indeed. What a ridiculous comment.

And as for yer other, "How do I know you wouldn't [deny yer daughter astronomy on biological grounds]?", I didn't say that I knew such. I said that you wouldn't do such. There's a difference, but bein a guy, and hence deprived somewhat linguistically as compared with women, maybe you don't read too good? On second thought, maybe you would do that.


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killdabuddha
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 08/26/11

Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: mark8888]
      #5662875 - 02/05/13 03:23 AM

Quote:

Just read an article/graph which is pretty on point for this thread. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/02/04/science/girls-lead-in-science-e...

Girls Lead in Science Exam, but Not in the United States
For years — and especially since 2005, when Lawrence H. Summers, then president of Harvard, made his notorious comments about women’s aptitude — researchers have been searching for ways to explain why there are so many more men than women in the top ranks of science.

Now comes an intriguing clue, in the form of a test given in 65 developed countries by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. It finds that among a representative sample of 15-year-olds around the world, girls generally outperform boys in science — but not in the United States.

What explains the gap? Andreas Schleicher, who oversees the tests for the O.E.C.D., says different countries offer different incentives for learning science and math...




If yer willing to have yer socks knocked off, or just want a handy resource, check out

http://www.worldmapper.org/

Then you'll know where America stands in the world, and what it does or doesn't stand for, particularly in education.


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astro_baby
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 06/17/08

Loc: United Kingdom
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: killdabuddha]
      #5662914 - 02/05/13 04:45 AM

Killdabuddha....intesting post. Obviosly being a Brit Boadicea and the Iceni are close to my heart ......I think your examples do show theres not much thats 'innate' and I never really believed there was. There mah be differences in brain chemistry and structure etc whose to say women dont have an advantage because of it. In the UK girls routinely outperform boys in academia these days.

Anyone whos seen a women get really angry ( as opposed to sort of angry or mildly annoyed ) knows we can be very ferocious indeed so no reason to believe we wouldnt make great warriors. Upper body strength is actually not that big an advantage unless your going to wrestle. A spear through an opponent, or an arrow or a high velocity bullet for that matter is likely to render any wrestling match superflous. Women take high G better than men but I dont see men arguing that women should be fighter pilots very often. Thats the old dominant group picking tha data that suits them routine.

Personally I have never believed there are any imperatives.......

There are plenty of other examples in observed science. Its very easy to believe data at times especially when it fits with your own preconceptions of what the 'truth' is.

As to why the are fewer women who do astronomy though...heres a thought. How do we know thats true ? Its a bit of an assumption in itself isnt it ?

They may not be posting on boards, its easy to believe that everyone into astro is online as well. I regularly meet people who have never been on an astro board. My own sister for instance never comes online, occasionally reads boards but has no interest in conttributing ( and usually berates me for wasting time online as well ).

It may be there are women in all kinds of astro reated fields who just dont do observational astro.

The ratio of men to women may be slewed by men taking up a new hobby but who in fact leave the hobby quickly so if you based it on people who have been in the hobby for say 10 years you may get a different result. Certainly I see a lot of men start on forums and then drop away and I see a lot of gear being sold 'because I am bored' type ads by men. Now I come to think of it I have never bought any secondhand gear off another woman.

Thinking about this last night I wondered about imaging........does that perhaps attract more men in.? Ioccurred to me I only know a single woman who does imaging. Forgive if I am overlooking any on here but I am basing this on personal contact.

Edited by droid (02/05/13 09:39 AM)


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la200o
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/09/08

Loc: SE Michigan, USA
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: killdabuddha]
      #5663016 - 02/05/13 08:03 AM

[quote
Howz that Mr. Bill? These are only a few particular women and cultures that we know about because of their notoriety. There are many more notable examples, and how many more that will never be known because they were mere infantry? Desperation indeed. Non-infantry indeed. What a ridiculous comment.





You must not have much to do but write long rambling, and semi-literate posts! As an ex-Marine rifle squad leader, I suspect I know quite a bit more than you do about what works in the infantry. Gosh, you've sure assembled a lot of dubious "facts," though. I'm impressed?

Bill

Edited by la200o (02/05/13 08:10 AM)


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Achernar
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: astro_baby]
      #5663093 - 02/05/13 09:00 AM

I am a Slav by half, my father and his family are Ukrainians and Russians. During the Second World War, many women were combat pilots and snipers, some of whom killed hundreds of Germans before they themselves were killed. After the war, women were well represented in the Soviet Spetznatz, especially the Navy Spetznatz. That is their version of the Green Berets and Navy SEALS. There's also a Ukrainian lady who is one of the world's top aerobatic pilots. When she's not flying, she raises her children with her husband. Americans who do not have my ancestry have no idea that a Russian woman is a lioness when it comes to her children and their welfare. I saw that in my grandmother Anna, and I know a Russian couple who lives down the street from me. There is a long history of women fighting along their men against the Russian people's numerous external and intenal enemies. When it comes to astronomy, many professional astronomers in Russia have been and are women today. In general, there seems to be many more professional astronomers across the board who are women than amatuer astronomers. That reflects the fact that hobbies are but one of many priorites everyone must juggle who are not astronomers by profession versus those who make their living as professionals.

Taras


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Tom Polakis
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 12/20/04

Loc: Tempe, Arizona
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: astro_baby]
      #5663145 - 02/05/13 09:30 AM

Quote:

As to why the are fewer women who do astronomy though...heres a thought. How do we know thats true ? Its a bit of an assumption in itself isnt it ?





I've enjoyed reading your contributions to this thread, but I feel compelled to answer that question.

It's not an assumption; it's as simple as looking at the data. Very few women are buying telescopes, attending meetings, going to star parties, subscribing to the magazines, posting on this board. We know that women represent a small part of the astronomy hobby.

I see this argument trotted out often when the subject of the lack of young amateur astronomers is discussed, and it doesn't hold up.

Tom


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csrlice12
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: droid]
      #5663156 - 02/05/13 09:35 AM

Cause men are from Mars and Women are from Venus....and Venus is covered in clouds(always)..........Mars has clear skies (mostly).......

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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: roscoe]
      #5663166 - 02/05/13 09:41 AM

Astronomess--sounds like the inside of my kit bag......

I believe "Astronomer" is one of those "sexless" terms. We've come to think of it as male, well because we're probably not as intelligent as we think we are......


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droid
rocketman
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Reged: 08/29/04

Loc: Conneaut, Ohio
Re: Astronomy Hobby Male dominated, Why? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5663173 - 02/05/13 09:43 AM

This thread is now locked pending moderator review

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