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General Astronomy >> Light Pollution

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barbarosa
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/11/10

Loc: "lamorinda", CA
80kW Field Lights at St. Marys' College new
      #5627235 - 01/16/13 11:33 PM

Thirty residents of Moraga CA have joined together to limit the night use of a lighted sports field. A year ago St. Mary's College of California upgraded an intra-mural playing field and installed a total of 80,000 Watts of lighting (48 lights on 4 70 foot tall poles).

A former local official granted the school an environmental review waiver, by ruling that the lights were a small change equal to a temporary hot dog stand or portable toilet. Getting past that issue, the Town did ask if the poles should be green but settled for gray.

A “dark sky friendly” manufacturer promoted the lights as “Green Generation”. It was to be a no glare installation with negligible spill at 150 feet.

Well as some of us predicted, the lights have a large horizontal spill component, and sure enough, at 3000 feet, I cast twin shadows in my back yard. We don't need night lights.

After a year of unresolved complaints, the Town imposed an earlier cut off --9PM rather than 10PM. The college asked for no limits, citing students who wanted to kick a ball at midnight.

The field light level is 50 foot-candles, good enough for NCAA play with spectators and TV cameras. There is no seating and no NCAA play. The college has rejected suggestions that it reduce light to 20 to 30 foot-candles per the standards of the Illuminating Engineering Society of North America or any of several secondary school associations.

Although the College appealed the 9PM limit, it has asked for two delays, we suspect they are trying to outwait us. The college enjoys, as it should, a great deal of support in the Town. The outcome of the appeal is uncertain, as is the fate of our request for an official review the use permit.

The Town of Moraga is legally a city so we should call ourselves the Town of Moraga City, but we do not, because officially we want to protect our "semi-rural" ambiance. Sadly semi-rural means a few cows on the undeveloped ridges, deer that eat the roses, and letting the college install any kind of lighting it wants.

The Milky Way is gone but we have hope. At http://tinyurl.com/SMC-Light-Noise you can see some photos and material by opponents of the lights.

On a personal note, these lights and other lights closer to my home have destroyed visual astronomy for me. I get no pleasure from observing the reflection of my iris in the eyepiece. When I approached the college about re-aiming or dimming a few of the halogen lights/wall packs, They gave me a free lunch, a grade school hand out on astronomy, great sympathy, and a chat with the college astronomer. Then they said that they would not change anything. They have $30,000,000 for a new 60,000 square-foot recreation center but no money to fix a handful of lights.

So here we are, a group of thirty (I am the only amateur astronomer) girding loins for battle with a $300 million school. Wish us luck.

A final and absurd note. Until now, the town would not even talk about a dark sky lighting ordinance, but it does have a rule about lights on boat docks. Now if we just had a lake or pond or even a creek big enough for a dock or a kayak.


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Raginar
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 10/19/10

Loc: Rapid CIty, SD
Re: 80kW Field Lights at St. Marys' College new [Re: barbarosa]
      #5627274 - 01/17/13 12:19 AM

Good luck Dave, I've seen you broadcast on NSN. I hope you're able to get the situation under control.

Good luck!


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Ian Robinson
Post Laureate


Reged: 01/29/09

Loc: 33S , 151E
Re: 80kW Field Lights at St. Marys' College new [Re: Raginar]
      #5627342 - 01/17/13 01:42 AM

Beggers belief that they can get away this.

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barbarosa
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/11/10

Loc: "lamorinda", CA
Re: 80kW Field Lights at St. Marys' College new [Re: Ian Robinson]
      #5627366 - 01/17/13 02:34 AM

Quote:

Beggers belief that they can get away this.



The college says that it needs these things to attract the "new student".

SMC's accredidation is in jeopardy because of substandard library and other academic issues, but they can spend big bucks on "the new student".

I went to school for the degree (and some fun), working PT and paying my own way. The "new student" expects financial aid (>half the student body) and country club amenities. What a fool I was to be happy with a parking space.

All we want is for the school to keep the nighttime light and sound on campus. Unfortunately there are many recent residents and some old ones trying to recapture a lost youth, who think that the "new student" should get his way. One of our coucilmen wants this to be a college town. We are 10 miles from a real college town, Berkeley, and no one willingly walks those streets at night. But the old fools dream on.

We have a family connection with the school, I used to recruit there, and they have a good art collection. But this is too much.

It is sad what many people just give away without a thought. The horses are nearly gone, the cows are about to get on the truck, and the Milky Way has left the rooom. But who cares as long as they have the coolest phone.


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: 80kW Field Lights at St. Marys' College new [Re: barbarosa]
      #5627743 - 01/17/13 10:13 AM

David, this indeed is very sad; and seems to be the trend in today's world. Too bad that college doesn't have an Astronomy class & observatory; that would make them rethink making night into day.

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barbarosa
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/11/10

Loc: "lamorinda", CA
Re: 80kW Field Lights at St. Marys' College new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5628147 - 01/17/13 01:58 PM

Quote:

David, this indeed is very sad; and seems to be the trend in today's world. Too bad that college doesn't have an Astronomy class & observatory; that would make them rethink making night into day.




Ah, but they do have an observatory (1 dome with a large Meade and a tiny dome for a camera or solar instrument). The college and we are in a small valley (about a mile across ridge top to ridge top). The observatory is on a promontory above the campus. A nearby rise blocks the field lights and many other campus lights. I have to say that nearly all of the outside lights at SMC have some sort of top shield, but many of the lights are period designs that have huge horizontal or just above horizontal spill and glare from internal reflection points. Many of the homes that are on three sides of SMC are at or just above the level of the lights.

The college astronomer had several options for the dome site, but I am certain he selected carefully-- a little to the NW and he would have seen field and some of the better-lighted areas on campus.

In this wide shot of the campus the observatory is out of sight behind the dim white light above the buildings and to the left of center. The white halogen security/parking lot light above the buildings in the center stands out, as does the lighted building wall to the right. I would estimate that SMC has double the number of lights compared to 10 or 15 years back. Local law regulates none of these lights, because we are officially in the San Francisco-Oakland urban zone and are not required to have a lighting plan. California has what some think are tough energy standards that include lighting. The reality is that rules relax in and near urban zones and dark sky protection only exists if there is a local ordinance.

When we met, the astronomer went on the defensive, pointing out that even though we are in a valley that is adjacent to substantial open space, the sky glow is mostly urban; not caused by the school. I explained again, that the school did create local glow (in moist air the dome is clearly visible) but that it was the direct light that concerned me. After lunch when just the two of us walked to my car, I pointed out examples of very poor lighting and he agreed they would cause problems for a visual observer. Then it was sorry, nothing to be done now, but perhaps in the new master plan.

At that time, my request was to fix some individual lights, not the field, and I have to say they did one thing. They re-lamped two very large (2+ feet wide) ground mounted wall washers. A mole later told me that the smaller lamps were original and that “someone” had ordered larger lamps to make the building more visible. I offered to buy replacement lamps for some of the halogen fixtures, but they refused.

Their latest expansions, over 60,000 square feet of recreation facilities, was approved without a lighting plan, although when I spoke at the design review the made a positive response when I asked them to observe IDA guidelines. They amended their draft lighting plan to say it would have dark sky compliant fixtures.

The proposed fixtures are from a vendor that offers IDA approved lighting and who supports the IDA. Alas the kicker is that they want to use the existing decorative style street lights, a non-compliant model that is completely open to the sides and sports a faux (and reflective) glass chimney. I've notified the Town planner and can only hope it leads to a positive change. The Town planner is now alert to IDA and to vendor dark sky claims. However, absent an ordinance she can only make suggestions. She also was very helpful in getting the 9PM closing imposed.

Progress on this issue is very difficult even in liberal tree hugging California. People just do not see the point and many no matter the facts, many want or accept big city light levels or have reflexive opposition to government poking into their homes.

The photo is a very wide angle shot from the far side of the valley that shows the campus lights. The second photo, taken from closer to the campus shows the lights of the neighborhood on the west side of the campus.




Edited by barbarosa (01/17/13 02:00 PM)


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: 80kW Field Lights at St. Marys' College new [Re: barbarosa]
      #5628160 - 01/17/13 02:07 PM

Now, that is even more sad; having an observatory, & still not trying to be compliant about LP.

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frolinmod
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 08/06/10

Loc: Southern California
Re: 80kW Field Lights at St. Marys' College new [Re: barbarosa]
      #5628677 - 01/17/13 07:00 PM

Quote:

I went to school for the degree (and some fun), working PT and paying my own way. The "new student" expects financial aid



Much has changed since you and I were students. The cost of a college education has risen far beyond most peoples ability to pay. A part time job is no longer sufficient. It's out of control. Today I would not be able to afford it. If the school really wanted to do something useful, they'd turn the lights off. Even better, cut their administrative overhead.


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FirstSight
Duke of Deneb
*****

Reged: 12/26/05

Loc: Raleigh, NC
Re: 80kW Field Lights at St. Marys' College [Re: frolinmod]
      #5629062 - 01/17/13 10:54 PM

I have very conflicted interests regarding lighted sports fields for amateur-level competitive and recreational play. First, the direct conflict of interest: my other avid hobby is soccer refereeing, which has directly financed every single piece of astronomy equipment I own. This includes, in season, refereeing high school varsity and adult games played on lighted fields. In general, HS varsity games could not be played compatible with the school classroom schedule or the travel time needs of visiting teams without playing part or all of many games under the lights, although they're always over before 9pm (with lights out between 9pm and 9:30) all but for a handful of playoff games at the end of each season. The adult games could not be played compatible with most people's work schedules without playing under the lights on weeknights, and can't start before 8pm because youth competitive teams need to use the fields for practice 4:30-6:00 and 6:15-7:45 (i.e. two completely different sets of teams use the same field in different time slots; else there wouldn't be enough field space for them to practice). The adult games end at 11pm, with light shutoff very shortly after (you don't want to tarry, or you'll be finding your equipment bag and way to the car in the dark).

In general, there's a shortage of available playing field space for ALL sports, not just soccer, and that's a second force driving playing on lighted fields at night (the lights are expensive to operate, so absent the field-space shortage and people's scheduling conflicts with playing at other times, there wouldn't be quite so much demand or pressure to play games or run practices under lighted fields (expensive!) Don't misunderstand the considerations above as being particular to soccer; they're generic to all amateur and collegiate non-revenue sports, and not just the arguably revenue sports with grandstands (you want a REAL HEADACHE of a ballfield lighting problem, live near a professional or big-time college football stadium).

THAT SAID, I dislike the poor design and blindingly excessive illumination at some fields, but there are more facilities with inadequate illumination for play that nevertheless must be used (which are still bright enough to impair astronomy in the nearby area). It sounds from your description as if the college isn't quite doing its fair part to mitigate the impact of the lights on the surrounding neighborhood. I do think they have a duty to prevent substial light trespass into bedrooms of neighboring homes.

But you're saying to all the students at the college: no intermural play at night for several hundred of them because you individually want to do astronomy? St. Mary's College is 20 miles east of San Francisco, hardly a pristine dark-sky shed to begin with.

I'm being a contrarian here as a fellow astronomomer at CN in the light pollution forum, I know, but I'm deliberately playing devil's advocate here because I deeply understand the perspective of both sides in your situation. You'll be better-prepared to argue and negotiate your interests if you have a better understanding of the perspective and legitimate interests the other side brings to the conflict, albeit their presence is a PITA to you. Realistically, in your situation, you're more likely to succeed with getting the college to mitigate the lights with shielding and modestly reduced intensity to prevent unreasonable light trespass into bedrooms, but the only likely feasible "win" for astronomy will be as a collateral consequence of forcing the college to a reasonable shutdown hour for the lights to mitigate intrusion into the bedrooms of the nearby neighborhood, e.g. by sometime between 10pm and 11pm.

BTW: this isn't the soccer side of me talking now, it's the real-politic side. As for soccer, I'll be retiring and out of refereeing in another year or two, and so I have less of my own dog in that hunt than you might think.

Edited by FirstSight (01/17/13 11:10 PM)


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barbarosa
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/11/10

Loc: "lamorinda", CA
Re: 80kW Field Lights at St. Marys' College new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5630823 - 01/18/13 11:42 PM

Your post is thoughtful and as you intended thought provoking. It deserves a good response.
Quote:

THAT SAID, I dislike the poor design and blindingly excessive illumination at some fields, but there are more facilities with inadequate illumination for play that nevertheless must be used (which are still bright enough to impair astronomy in the nearby area). It sounds from your description as if the college isn't quite doing its fair part to mitigate the impact of the lights on the surrounding neighborhood. I do think they have a duty to prevent substial light trespass into bedrooms of neighboring homes.



So far so good, although you are perhaps too kind to the college. The mitigation effort was as little as they could do and still point to a result. After that they issued PR statements about wanting to discuss, resolve and so on, but nothing substantive was said or done. They did say in writing that they would not do more.

Quote:

But you're saying to all the students at the college: no intermural play at night for several hundred of them because you individually want to do astronomy?



That is not what I am asking. The college was here when we moved in 30 years ago, and we accepted the normal daytime college sounds, including those from the old baseball field and on occasion cheers from the old football stadium. Night play under lights both casual and organized is new. We really do not care what the college does except when creates a nuisance, or deprives us of the right to peaceful enjoyment of our homes and yards. My neighbors (or more likely the kids) might throw a loud party now and then on a Friday or Saturday. When the weather is nice they light up their sport court and toss a basketball. When the party gets out of hand the cops come and quiet is restored by 11PM or so. We all accept that these things happen. However if my neighbor throws a loud party every night that is just bad manners and everyone cops included starts taking a less friendly view.

The college wants to have a loud party every night and they want big lights.. We can discuss loud, but even the sound of a basketball at 10:30PM seems loud, if you are trying to get to sleep.

The “new student” plays on the old lighted tennis courts (the best-designed lights on the campus) but also wants to play hip-hop on the PA (speakers are aimed off campus so as not to disturb other students or the Brothers in their quarters). The “new student” wants a gazillion Watt sound at 12 o’clock on a weeknight. I’ve measured sound levels of 85 to 90dB and I am more than 1000 feet from the closest campus boundary. So yes, many of think that the “new students” should scale back their wants.

But we are not saying no play at night. We just want some reasonable limit.
Quote:

St. Mary's College is 20 miles east of San Francisco, hardly a pristine dark-sky shed to begin with.



Very true and the sky is much worse now than 10 or 20 years ago and in all directions. However, to the south of the campus and my house, there is a very large open space (cattle, watershed, or park), so there was a remnant Milky Way above the hills. It is still there if you move away from the campus, not great but still there. It also is there if you stand near the college observatory. I think that makes the case on sky glow. The reflection of my iris in the eyepiece makes the case on horizontal light trespass.

What we are saying is that the right of dozens of taxpaying homeowners to continue to peacefully enjoying their homes and yards is grater than any right of a dozen or two students (on most nights) to interrupt that enjoyment with loud sounds and bright lights. There are homes within 300 feet of the field and the homes were there before the field.

That said the lights are in place and we are not asking that they should never use them. We think compromise of some sort is possible. The field illumination is greater than it needs to be and random visits to the field show only a few students use it after 8PM. The women’s soccer team has used the field lights a few times and I think we could agree on a limited game schedule.

One of the aggravating factors is that the field is in an otherwise dark area, so the view in that direction is greatly altered at night. The Town has an official commitment to maintaining a “semi-rural” environment. The school espouses a responsible environmental policy. I would quote the policy but the document never made it on-line. The field lights are not consistent with those goals.

As far as I know, I am the only homeowner close to the campus for whom backyard astronomy is important. These lights culminate a lighting program at the campus that has ruined my yard for visual. The school has treated us like whining children, denying us a fundamental right. They go so far as to say that the students “demand” lights, so we should just be quiet. Sorry, but no student demand will ever be more important than the rights of those of us who are actually paying for their country club sojourn. Yes we pay. St. Mary’s College is a $300,000,000 business that pays no tax and gets literally millions of dollars per year in additional government funds from both the state and federal coffers. Honestly I am tired of hearing that I should have an incrementally reduced enjoyment because someone else likes soccer or basketball. Well at least the rifle range is gone.

Quote:

Realistically, in your situation, you're more likely to succeed with getting the college to mitigate the lights with shielding and modestly reduced intensity to prevent unreasonable light trespass into bedrooms, but the only likely feasible "win" for astronomy will be as a collateral consequence of forcing the college to a reasonable shutdown hour for the lights to mitigate intrusion into the bedrooms of the nearby neighborhood, e.g. by sometime between 10pm and 11pm.




The college wanted no limits, and because problems were foreseeable, they got 10 PM with a 9 PM roll back possible. The college still wants midnight. 10 or 11 PM that is just not acceptable any of us, to the mother of the young children or the people who have to be at their desk before sevenAM. The homeowner who looks directly at the lights (at the level of his living room and bedroom windows) will not accept it.

A “modest reduction in intensity” by itself will not do it. A 50% reduction would still leave them enough light for enjoyable play. Baffles might be a major step to solving the problem and we have suggested feasible designs. A 10PM or later limit even with improved lights, might not be acceptable because of the noise. I do not hear the field, but a lady six houses up the hill invited me in to listen to the players, voices raised to be heard across the field; raised voices, not shouting at full volume or screaming.

This is a difficult problem. The college has pushed us toward a no night use position, but most of us know that we should compromise. We feel however that the big guy who wants to take something away from us, to get something that it did not have, should be willing to do the most.

The college has tried to play us. The consulting engineer never looked at any alternatives. Sharing the report came down to telling us about it but not letting us read it. The consultant refused to provide any of the measured data. During a series of tests they turned the upper lights off and the went to a home and asked the homeowner what he thought. The homeowner, seeing only half the lights said it was much improved. They told the man the problem was solved and he was very happy. The next night they turned the lights back on. They pointed a couple of the worst lights farther to the west, and then asked people on the east if it was better. They did not ask those on the west.

As you see, I am upset. I hope to get past that and then participate in a rational discussion of solutions that do not involve attorneys.


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barbarosa
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/11/10

Loc: "lamorinda", CA
Re: 80kW Field Lights at St. Marys' College new [Re: barbarosa]
      #5700982 - 02/26/13 03:42 AM

An update on where we are with the spill from the college lights.

We have not reached any agreement with the college. They rebuked a mediator for not consulting more closely with them, before talking to the neighbors. They then proposed another engineering study, if we agreed not to talk with the Council for 8 weeks. They expressly rejected any committment to making any changes, but did promise to talk with us after they rejected the study. Not so impressive, they rejected their own limited study last year. They told the contractor not to file a final report.

Their appeal requesting longer hours for the lighs goes to hearing this week. The college sent two letters to the Town. One threatened legal action if the Town so much as asked about the lights. The other letter said that the lights were essential to its "sacred duty" and that it had a "moral respnsibility" to provide night time recreation. They also complained that we were basically ungrateful and untruthful. Oh yes, and they were here first. I am skeptical. 149 years without lights and now they are essential to their academic mission?

During all of this they have not discussed the related noise issue, and noise is an underlying permit issue.

The forty residents who petitioned the Town for relief are offended. Some of the Town officials are offended.

It has turned unpleasant.

We started this conversation with the college in March 2011.

The good news here is that for the first time there is some interest in a lighting code, not much but a start.


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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
*****

Reged: 01/04/04

Loc: AR
Re: 80kW Field Lights at St. Marys' College new [Re: barbarosa]
      #5701093 - 02/26/13 07:33 AM

Looks like you should plan to sell and move out of the state if you are planning to continue your astronomy, and if it is a serious pursuit. You cannot successfully fight a college, let alone an athletic department. It's not worth stressing over. I would get out ASAP, or take up other hobbies. Light pollution has caused my astronomy interest to wane considerably, and I have taken up some other hobbies that are not affected by LP.

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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: 80kW Field Lights at St. Marys' College new [Re: John Fitzgerald]
      #5701219 - 02/26/13 09:18 AM

Quote:

Light pollution has caused my astronomy interest to wane considerably




I thought you said your obs site was in a gray zone?


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EverlastingSky
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 09/12/06

Loc: Vancouver Canada
Re: 80kW Field Lights at St. Marys' College new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5701602 - 02/26/13 12:43 PM

I don't know if I understood this right: They have a 10pm light cut off? So after 10pm the floodlights are turned off? I can't remember that last time I observed before 10pm. For those of us in urban areas... one has to wait till well after midnight for various sundry lighting to be turned off and for car traffic and their headlights to dwindle anyway... And in the Summer months, due to a long twilight, any serious observing has to be well after midnight. Just saying.

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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
*****

Reged: 01/04/04

Loc: AR
Re: 80kW Field Lights at St. Marys' College new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5702379 - 02/26/13 08:10 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Light pollution has caused my astronomy interest to wane considerably




I thought you said your obs site was in a gray zone?




It is in a gray zone. It is 50 miles from my house. Due to the poor economy and inability to sell, I have not been able to move closer, and gas prices make it difficult to get out there often. My house is in an orange/red zone.


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barbarosa
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/11/10

Loc: "lamorinda", CA
Re: 80kW Field Lights at St. Marys' College new [Re: EverlastingSky]
      #5708120 - 03/02/13 02:29 AM

Quote:

... after 10pm the floodlights are turned off? I can't remember that last time I observed before 10pm. For those of us in urban areas... one has to wait till well after midnight for various sundry lighting to be turned off and for car traffic and their headlights to dwindle anyway... And in the Summer months, due to a long twilight, any serious observing has to be well after midnight. Just saying.




A valid point, although winter is relatively mild here so we can observe well before 10PM. Civil twilight is about 9PM in the warmer months. Only 3 of the 40 residents who opposed the lights have serious telescopes. No one will give 3 people serious consideration, so we joined the larger cause. We have the Town's and the college's attention now. If we are lucky we can impact the lighting of a $120 million expansion that is on the horizon.

For me the lights create a significant glow but the real problem is the even stronger light from ornamental lights, wall packs, halogen lights aimed straight off campus and event lights that almost compete with a full moon. The field lights are a rally issue.

The real importance of the field lights is that they called attention, for the first time to light trespass as an important issue. The college is a dominant force in town and has many of the most badly designed or placed fixtures in town.

The engineering firm that evaluated the field lights also called out a halogen wall pack that added to the problem. I brought these lights to the college's attention in early 2011 but only got sympathy. Now we might have the start of a real dialog.


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barbarosa
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/11/10

Loc: "lamorinda", CA
Re: 80kW Field Lights at St. Marys' College new [Re: barbarosa]
      #5708138 - 03/02/13 02:56 AM

The town council voted 3-2 to deny the college appeal of the 9PM limit. The college sent the council two letters before the hearing. One threatened to sue if the council so much as discussed the lights. The other, very offensively invoked moral responsibility and religious duty, claimed that aspersions had been cast at this Lasallian college and oh yes, said we were here first.

At the hearing the lawyer was not so threatening but said that the Town did not have a legal basis to deny the vested rights. 30 or so students spoke with passion and conviction as to how important 5 hours a week were to them. They did a good job.

The actual narrow issue was not the lights but the noise from the field, though everyone tended to conflate them. A former planning commissioner said that they did not put a restriction on the lights because the college assured them that the design would not cause light spill and glare. Noise was a condition because the location of the field was seen as problematic by everyone but the college.

This was the first time the Town ever said no to the college. This is not the end. If the college will agree to some design improvements they can come back for another review, and I hope that they do.

The council majority agreed that homeowners do have a common law right to the peaceful enjoyment of their property. This goes back to the castle doctrine. The college has a duty to avoid or mitigate noise and light trespass. This duty has nothing to do with sports love or hate. It recognizes that none of us have a right to impose our desires or likes on others. You could say that it is just an issue of being a good neigbor. Occassional parties OK, nightly noise not OK.

I should have said too that the college wants to operate its recreational facilities until 12PM and still is pursuing that objective. That does make the lights very important for astronomy.


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: 80kW Field Lights at St. Marys' College new [Re: barbarosa]
      #5708679 - 03/02/13 12:05 PM

I'm glad the town voted this way. Hopefully, the College will come to the realization that it will gain them much good will and appreciation, if they respect their fellow community's right to enjoy their property, without horrendous light & sound tresspassing. Threatening the town, is not being a good neighbor.

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