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Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all) Doug Reilly professor emeritus Reged: 07/29/08 Becvar's 14 star names       #5629897 - 01/18/13 12:50 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   I just did a post on my blog about the 14 star names that Antonin Becvar introduced with the Skalnate Pleso atlas in 1948. They are: Achird, Arich, Haris, Hasseleh, Hatysa, Heze, Kaffa, Kraz, Ksora, Kuma, Reda, Sarin, Segin and Tyl Star name researcher Paul Kunitsch could find no earlier reference nor any clear etymology for these names, at least in Latin, Greek or Arabic. They seem to have been dreamed up from thin air, or from a source that was known to only Becvar and his team. Anyone have any information about them? It's an interesting mystery. Here' my post for more information...although really what we know is...very little. http://bicycleastronomy.org/2013/01/17/star-atlas-mystery-the-becvar-14/ Post Extras:       KidOrion professor emeritus Reged: 07/07/07 Loc: Carbondale, IL Re: Becvar's 14 star names [Re: Doug Reilly]       #5630043 - 01/18/13 02:50 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   With Korsa, at least, the derivation seems to be from Arabic chair. Cassiopeia was referred to as al-Dhat al-Kursiyy. Alpha Cas was also referred to with this name, but was later changed to Schedar, whose etymology could be from a few different sources. Edited by KidOrion (01/18/13 02:51 PM) Post Extras:       KidOrion professor emeritus Reged: 07/07/07 Loc: Carbondale, IL Re: Becvar's 14 star names [Re: KidOrion]       #5630074 - 01/18/13 03:02 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Arich may be a mutated form of Arista, which Bayer called both Spica and Virgo; that may be a stretch. It may also be from the Arabic for "foot", rijl (hence "Rigel"); al-rijl would assimilate to ar-rijl. Eta Vir was also known as ar-rijl al 'Awwa, "Foot of the Barker," and Gamma may have been similarly designated at one time. Edited by KidOrion (01/18/13 03:12 PM) Post Extras:       Doug Reilly professor emeritus Reged: 07/29/08 Re: Becvar's 14 star names [Re: KidOrion]       #5630087 - 01/18/13 03:11 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   It's not Korsa, though, but Ksora. Interesting information, however. Arich refers to Gamma, not Alpha Virginis...so it's even more of a stretch. Constellation matches. Post Extras:       KidOrion professor emeritus Reged: 07/07/07 Loc: Carbondale, IL Re: Becvar's 14 star names [Re: Doug Reilly]       #5630119 - 01/18/13 03:32 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Yeah. Historical linguistics gets less accurate the farther back one goes, especially without knowing specifics of the given languages. Much of this is spitballing. Star-names occasionally wandered from star to star, too (or from star to constellation and vice versa), which makes it even more difficult. Post Extras:       KidOrion professor emeritus Reged: 07/07/07 Loc: Carbondale, IL Re: Becvar's 14 star names [Re: Doug Reilly]       #5630122 - 01/18/13 03:35 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Quote: It's not Korsa, though, but Ksora. Interesting information, however. Arich refers to Gamma, not Alpha Virginis...so it's even more of a stretch. Constellation matches. Well, Ksora might have still originated from the above, if one applies metathesis to it (the process by which ask becomes "axe"). It could have been a mistranslation/misreading of the word. Hard to say, but fun to speculate. Post Extras:       Rick Woods Postmaster Reged: 01/27/05 Loc: Inner Solar System Re: Becvar's 14 star names [Re: KidOrion]       #5630209 - 01/18/13 04:22 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   What a great article! Thanks, Doug! They could be anagrams of Czech words or names; like Navi, Regor, and Dnoces. Post Extras:       BobinKy Post Laureate Reged: 04/27/07 Re: Becvar's 14 star names [Re: Doug Reilly]       #5638821 - 01/23/13 12:21 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Any idea of the RA/dec coordinates of the Becvar 14? Constellation locations? Alternate labels? Post Extras:       Doug Reilly professor emeritus Reged: 07/29/08 Re: Becvar's 14 star names [Re: BobinKy]       #5639005 - 01/23/13 02:25 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   I will post the bayer designations.... Post Extras:       Doug Reilly professor emeritus Reged: 07/29/08 Re: Becvar's 14 star names [Re: Doug Reilly]       #5639481 - 01/23/13 07:47 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Achird Eta Cas Arich Gamma Vir Haris Gamma Boo Hasseleh Iota Aur Hatysa Iota Ori Heze Zeta Vir Kaffa Delta UMa Kraz Beta Crv Ksora Delta Cas Kuma Nu Dra Reda Gamma Aql Sarin Delta Her Segin Epsilon Cas Tyl Epsilon Dra Post Extras:       BobinKy Post Laureate Reged: 04/27/07 Re: Becvar's 14 star names [Re: Doug Reilly]       #5639521 - 01/23/13 08:22 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Thanks. I will add the Becvar 14 as an observing list to my SkyTools 3 database. Post Extras:       BobinKy Post Laureate Reged: 04/27/07 Re: Becvar's 14 star names [Re: BobinKy]       #5639720 - 01/23/13 10:48 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   I finished building the Becvar 14 observing list in SkyTools 3 on my laptop. Some of the Becvar designations were already in the SkyTools 3 data base; some were not. For those that were not, SkyTools 3 used alternate designations. Here is the SkyTools 3 information. Let me know if you want me to double check any of these. I googled each of the Becvar designations and entered a NOTE of some of what I saw online. Anyone interested can click on the link at the end of each NOTE. I also liked what Rick Woods said. Achird Eta Cas -- Yes in SkyTools 3: multiple star system, R.A.: 00h49m07.5s, Dec.: +57°48'47". NOTE: Designation used by James Kaler. Arich Gamma Vir -- Not in SkyTools 3: designation is Porrima, multiple star system, R.A.: 12h41m39.1s, Dec.: -01°26'57". NOTE: "Arich is a giant red spider, that appears as a boss in the game Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble!. He appears as the boss of the second area of the game, Kremwood Forest, where he is fought in a level called Arich's Ambush" (wikipedia). Haris Gamma Boo -- Not in SkyTools 3: designation is Seginus, multiple star system, R.A.: 14h32m04.5s, Dec.: +38°18'32". NOTE: "Traditional name for the star gamma bootis, name of a county and city in Iran" (wikipedia) Hasseleh Iota Aur -- Yes in SkyTools 3: variable star, R.A.: 04h56m59.6s, Dec.: +33°09'58". NOTE: "Hasseleh was Al Ka'b dhi'l 'Inan "the Heel of the Rein-holder" a title which other authors gave to gamma (γ) [gamma Auriga which marks the right Heel of the Rein-holder is now beta Taurus, El Nath marking one of the Bull's horns]" (Richard H. Allen, 1889). Hatysa Iota Ori -- Not in SkyTools 3: designation is Nair al Saif, multiple star system, R.A.: 05h35m26.0s, Dec.: -05°54'36". NOTE: "Iota (ι) Orion, Hatsya, is a triple and nebulous star, 3.5, 8.5, and 11, white, pale blue, and grape red in the sword tip of the Hunter, the brightest star in Orion's sword. Al Tizini (Arabian astronomer, first half of 16th century) designated this as Na'ir al Saif, the Bright One in the Sword, but it is practically unnamed with us [Wikipedia says it is a traditional name; "sometimes with the typographic error Hatysa."], although far more deserving of the title Saiph than is the succeeding star kappa (κ Saiph). In China it was Fa, a Middle-man, upsilon (υ) and intermediate stars being included under this name; but Edkins translates the word "Punishment," and gives another title for it, — Tui, or Jui, the Sharp Edge, analogous to the Arabian Saif and perhaps taken from it.) [Star Names, Their Lore and Meaning, Richard Hinckley Allen, 1889]. Heze Zeta Vir -- Yes in SkyTools 3: single star, R.A.: 13h34m41.4s, Dec.: -00°35'44". NOTE: "Heze is the westernmost prefecture-level city in Shandong" (wikipedia). Kaffa Delta UMa -- Not in SkyTools 3: designation is Megrez, multiple star system, R.A.: 12h15m25.7s, Dec.: +57°01'58". NOTE: "Kaffa is the name of several places in Ethiopia" (wikipedia). Kraz Beta Crv -- Yes in SkyTools 3: variable star, R.A.: 12h34m23.2s, Dec.: -23°23'49". NOTE: "KrAZ is is a factory that produces trucks and other special-purpose vehicles in Kremenchuk, Ukraine; particularly heavy-duty off-road models" (wikipedia) Ksora Delta Cas -- Not in SkyTools 3: designation is Ruchbah, multiple star system, R.A.: 01h25m49.5s, Dec.: +60°14'06". NOTE: Google search revealed no clues. Kuma Nu Dra -- Yes in SkyTools 3: alternate designation is Nu 2 Dra, multiple star system, R.A.: 17h32m16.2s, Dec.: +55°10'23". NOTE: "Kuma is a word in several languages and might refer to 'Kuma Lisa', a character from Bulgarian and Russian folklore, a fox who usually plays the role of the trickster; Kuma, is the word for "bear" in Japanese; Kuma is the name of several places in Japan; name of a river in Russia" (wikipedia). Reda Gamma Aql -- Not in SkyTools 3: designation is Tarazed, multiple star system, R.A.: 19h46m15.6s, Dec.: +10°36'48". NOTE: "Reda may refer to a town or river in Poland" (wikipedia). Sarin Delta Her -- Yes in SkyTools 3: multiple star system, R.A.: 17h15m01.9s, Dec.: +24°50'19". NOTE: "In the catalogue of stars in the Calendarium of Al Achsasi al Mouakket, this star was designated Menkib al Jathi al Aisr, which was translated into Latin as Humerus Sinister Ingeniculi, meaning the left shoulder of the kneeling man" (wikipedia) Segin Epsilon Cas -- Yes in SkyTools 3: variable star, R.A.: 01h54m23.8s, Dec.: +63°40'12". NOTE: "In Chinese, 閣道 (Gé Dào), meaning Flying Corridor, refers to an asterism consisting of ε Cassiopeiae, ι Cassiopeiae, δ Cassiopeiae, θ Cassiopeiae, ν Cassiopeiae and ο Cassiopeiae.[16] Consequently, ε Cassiopeiae itself is known as 閣道二 (Gé Dào èr, English: the Second Star of Flying Corridor.)" (wikipedia) Tyl Epsilon Dra -- Not in SkyTools 3: designation is 63 Dra, multiple star system, R.A.: 19h48m10.6s, Dec.: +70°16'05". NOTE: "Tyl is a Russian word meaning 'rear' in a military sense" (wikipedia). I enjoyed reading through your Bicycle Astronomy blog. Post Extras:       Rick Woods Postmaster Reged: 01/27/05 Loc: Inner Solar System Re: Becvar's 14 star names [Re: BobinKy]       #5639796 - 01/23/13 11:45 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Bob, you're good! Post Extras:       Doug Reilly professor emeritus Reged: 07/29/08 Re: Becvar's 14 star names [Re: Rick Woods]       #5640151 - 01/24/13 08:08 AM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Awesome sluething Bob! Just to note, Hasseleh is not named by Allen in the original. The page linked seems to have it superimposed on the map and the quoted passage is misleading in that it seems to suggest that Hasseleh is in Allen. The link at the top, to google books, shows no sign of it nor does a search of the book text. A few of these possible meanings might make sense in terms of things that might have been familiar to Becvar. Kraz russian trucks would likely have been common in socialist Czechoslovakia (it actually sounds familiar, like I saw them when I was a volunteer in Slovakia), Poland is just next door (Reda), Russian was taught in schools (Kuma), Sarin was a nerve gas common to both Nato and Soviet arsenals in the 1950s and certianly matches the "sinister" connotations of the star's earlier names. Place names farther afield could have come from an Atlas. I have a hard time believing that Hatysa was a "typo" given that it's about as far from the Arabic tranliteration as possible! That might be worth correcting the Wiki, which I've never done, but Wikipedia is an awesome project... Thanks again Bob, this is good work. No definitive answers, but the mystery gets richer. Post Extras:       Doug Reilly professor emeritus Reged: 07/29/08 Re: Becvar's 14 star names [Re: Doug Reilly]       #5640154 - 01/24/13 08:10 AM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Oh, thanks for reading the blog. I try to post good stuff, but that means I don't post every day. Unless someone would give me a full time job doing it! Post Extras:       jrbarnett Eyepiece Hooligan Reged: 02/28/06 Loc: Petaluma, CA Re: Becvar's 14 star names [Re: Doug Reilly]       #5647214 - 01/28/13 12:05 AM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   http://www.constellationsofwords.com/stars/Hasseleh.html http://www.constellationsofwords.com/stars/Hatsya.html 1889 edition of Star Names, by R.H. Allen. Haven't checked the rest, but I bet that's where many of them came from. Whether Allen made 'em up is another question, but I doubt it. - Jim Edited by jrbarnett (01/28/13 12:28 AM) Post Extras:       jrbarnett Eyepiece Hooligan Reged: 02/28/06 Loc: Petaluma, CA Re: Becvar's 14 star names [Re: Doug Reilly]       #5647224 - 01/28/13 12:14 AM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Ksora reference here, allegedly from the Cambridge Guide to the Constellations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Cassiopeiae Very cool topic. Regards, Jim Post Extras:       jrbarnett Eyepiece Hooligan Reged: 02/28/06 Loc: Petaluma, CA Re: Becvar's 14 star names [Re: jrbarnett]       #5647241 - 01/28/13 12:24 AM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   "Arich" is supposedly Greek and refers to a royal Athenian princess or some such (per a "baby names" website). Probably a story there. The star is also known as "Postvarta". - Jim Post Extras:       Doug Reilly professor emeritus Reged: 07/29/08 Re: Becvar's 14 star names [Re: jrbarnett]       #5647659 - 01/28/13 09:31 AM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Jim, Hasseleh and Hatsya are not as far as I know named thus in Allen. The website you linked is a little misleading, most likely unintentionally. From the pages you linked, however, there is further link (under the star name title at the top) to the google books version of Allen's work and I can't find either name there. For example, see page 91: http://books.google.com/books?id=_GUDis0bETgC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq... The Wiki page on Ksora says it is a traditional name, but doesn't give more detail. It references a 1995 Cambridge Guide to the Constellations. Allen again does not use the name Ksora: http://books.google.com/books?id=_GUDis0bETgC&pg=PA148&lpg=PA148&... Arich sounds like a good lead...now just to figure out what source Becvar got it from, or maybe he was just reading Greek mythology and liked the name... Post Extras:       jrbarnett Eyepiece Hooligan Reged: 02/28/06 Loc: Petaluma, CA Re: Becvar's 14 star names [Re: Doug Reilly]       #5649372 - 01/28/13 10:17 PM Edit   Reply   Quote Quick Reply   Wow, that is contextually misleading. I also checked a scanned pdf of the first edition of the work. Same as the linked version so far. Here's a source that claims not only that Hatsya is a "traditional name" for Iota Orionis, but also that it is sometimes misspelled Hatysa. http://bethulah.blogspot.com/2008/09/orion-9.html I'll bet that if we check old astrological (Middle Ages) sources we'll find some "hits" for these "lost" star names. More research is in order. UPDATE: Astrology forums are full of examples of use of these Becvar "lost names" for the cited stars. Example for "Kuma": http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thefixedstars/message/6346 "North Node *Kisaba (Theta Apodis) Kuma (Nu-1 Draconis) *Han (Zeta Ophiuchi) *Rho Ophiuchi *Antares (Alpha Scorpii) *Shark's Jaws Nebula (King 1-3 Scorpii) *Gatria (Gamma Trianguli Australe)" I'll bet these are names (probably derived from Babylonian or old Persian) from astrological sources. Astronomy and astrology weren't really differentiated until the last few hundred years. Even Isaac Newton believed to some extent in mumbo-jumbo and mysticism. Incidentally I also found references to Archid and Hasseleh on that astrology site, though no reference to Arich interestingly enough. Regards, Jim Edited by jrbarnett (01/28/13 10:39 PM) Post Extras:       Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)

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