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Astrophotography and Sketching >> DSLR & Digital Camera Astro Imaging & Processing

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ccs_hello
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Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier
      #5637890 - 01/22/13 10:28 PM

http://www.chipworks.com/blog/recentteardowns/2013/01/08/inside-the-nikon-d52...

For its main stream DSLRs, SONY CCD --> (rumored) Renesas CMOS --> SONY CMOS ----- now Toshiba CMOS. E.g., "Toshiba 5105" used in D5200.

Clear Skies!

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nofxrx
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #5637965 - 01/22/13 11:05 PM

Just the D5200 has this new Toshiba.
But it does look like Toshiba is trying to get into the image sensor business....
Guess that puts a hold on getting a D5200 as a backup crop and video rig until I see some data on the performance of this sensor...

If you look at the same site under "recent teardowns", you can see the D600 which DOES use the 24Mp SONY CMOS! the same one that is used in the new Sony A99, RX1, etc..
Brilliant 'little' sensor

Cheers


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SteveRosenow
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: nofxrx]
      #5638142 - 01/23/13 01:06 AM

The D5100/D7000 also uses a Sony CMOS sensor which, in benchmark tests, blew the barn doors off of the 5DMkII

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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5638856 - 01/23/13 12:42 PM

The Olympus OMD EM-5 uses an m4/3s variation of the Sony sensor and the Panasonic GH3 is rumored to use that sensor as well.

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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5638933 - 01/23/13 01:20 PM

Quote:

The D5100/D7000 also uses a Sony CMOS sensor which, in benchmark tests, blew the barn doors off of the 5DMkII




I totally agree.

I have both the D5100 and D7000 and a 10 minute dark frame at 20 Celsius shows next to no noise at all. Their sensors are freak'in awesome!

Guylain


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ccs_hello
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: guyroch]
      #5639620 - 01/23/13 09:56 PM

Per http://www.chipworks.com/blog/technologyblog/2012/10/23/full-frame-dslr-camer... from Chipworks,

D3 & D700 (FX), D3S (FX), D3100 (DX), D3200 (DX), D4 (FX) use sensors designed by Nikon and fabricated by Renesas.

D2X (DX - IMX007), D90 & D5000 (DX - IMX038), D7000 & D5100 (DX - IMX071), D800 (FX - IMX094), D600 (FX - IMX128) use SONY CMOS image sensors.

D5200 (DX) uses Toshiba TCM5105 CMOS image sensor.

The first link is part I of the article.
Part II: http://www.chipworks.com/blog/technologyblog/2012/10/24/full-frame-dslr-camer...

Part III:
http://www.chipworks.com/blog/technologyblog/2012/10/25/full-frame-dslr-camer...

Clear Skies!

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SteveRosenow
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: guyroch]
      #5640025 - 01/24/13 05:12 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The D5100/D7000 also uses a Sony CMOS sensor which, in benchmark tests, blew the barn doors off of the 5DMkII




I totally agree.

I have both the D5100 and D7000 and a 10 minute dark frame at 20 Celsius shows next to no noise at all. Their sensors are freak'in awesome!

Guylain




And yet people seem to still think Canon's the holy grail in terms of AP...

If people truly gave Nikon a shot and tested a D5100/D7000 out, they'd never go back.


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mmalik
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5640098 - 01/24/13 07:02 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The D5100/D7000 also uses a Sony CMOS sensor which, in benchmark tests, blew the barn doors off of the 5DMkII




I totally agree.

I have both the D5100 and D7000 and a 10 minute dark frame at 20 Celsius shows next to no noise at all. Their sensors are freak'in awesome!

Guylain




And yet people seem to still think Canon's the holy grail in terms of AP...

If people truly gave Nikon a shot and tested a D5100/D7000 out, they'd never go back.




The debate of dark frame noise is an academic exercise; technologically we know Canon and Nikon are at par or can be at par if they wanted to. Canon has something to show for 2 to 0 at least in coming up with cameras designed specifically for astro imaging; until Nikon creates an ‘a’ version of their model/s, status quo is going to prevail (and it will remain a measuring criteria how committed Nikon is to AP). Thx


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s58y
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5640144 - 01/24/13 08:02 AM

Quote:



And yet people seem to still think Canon's the holy grail in terms of AP...

If people truly gave Nikon a shot and tested a D5100/D7000 out, they'd never go back.




One of the problems with Nikon in the 46.5mm lens register, which makes it harder to use old camera lenses for imaging. Of course, a this will change whenever APS-C mirrorless cameras that have good tethering support finally come out.


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SteveRosenow
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: mmalik]
      #5640544 - 01/24/13 12:12 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The D5100/D7000 also uses a Sony CMOS sensor which, in benchmark tests, blew the barn doors off of the 5DMkII




I totally agree.

I have both the D5100 and D7000 and a 10 minute dark frame at 20 Celsius shows next to no noise at all. Their sensors are freak'in awesome!

Guylain




And yet people seem to still think Canon's the holy grail in terms of AP...

If people truly gave Nikon a shot and tested a D5100/D7000 out, they'd never go back.




The debate of dark frame noise is an academic exercise; technologically we know Canon and Nikon are at par or can be at par if they wanted to. Canon has something to show for 2 to 0 at least in coming up with cameras designed specifically for astro imaging; until Nikon creates an ‘a’ version of their model/s, status quo is going to prevail (and it will remain a measuring criteria how committed Nikon is to AP). Thx




I don't think it should be a matter of how committed Nikon is - or is not - in terms of astro-photography camera platforms, insomuch as it has everything to do with the perception that Canons are the Holy Grail despite four of Nikon's latest camera models blowing the barn doors off of their direct Canon competitors. The D5100/D7000 vastly outperformed the higher-end Canon 5DMkII in every benchmark test aside from video and in noise reduction - especially in low-light, high-ISO settings, both walked away from Canon.

DxO Labs, in fact, gave its sensor a score of 80, which was far above the ratings held by much more expensive Canon competitors.

That should say something, IMO.


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SteveRosenow
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: s58y]
      #5640550 - 01/24/13 12:16 PM

Quote:

Quote:



And yet people seem to still think Canon's the holy grail in terms of AP...

If people truly gave Nikon a shot and tested a D5100/D7000 out, they'd never go back.




One of the problems with Nikon in the 46.5mm lens register, which makes it harder to use old camera lenses for imaging. Of course, a this will change whenever APS-C mirrorless cameras that have good tethering support finally come out.




Not at all true.

I shoot with older lenses on my D5100 and my images come out perfectly fine. In fact, I just shot two images concurrently of the Horsehead and Great Orion Nebula with a 25-year-old Spiratone 500mm mirror lens and a photo I took of the Andromeda Galaxy was shot using a Craig Optics 80-200mm zoom lens that came with a Nikkormat FTn 35mm SLR I purchased last summer.


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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5640741 - 01/24/13 01:49 PM

I agree completely with Steve's assessment but perhaps I could clarify a few points?

Although it was nice that Canon acknowledged the astro community with the "a" models, they didn't really go far enough. The IR transmission profile was altered too conservatively and the AA filter retained leading most imagers to still modify their own cameras for better response. Canon should have offered their own version of the Astronomik Clip In IR cut filter bundled with the "a" models so that no custom white rebalance would be needed for regular photography and a more radical IR transmission profile then allowed. Perhaps Nikon saw the sales response and decided against offering a dedicated astro model.

Although the Nikon flange to sensor distance is too long to engineer an adaptor for other camera make's lenses, the T thread lenses from the 1960s and 70s will still work and I believe this is what Steve was shooting with.


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Tonk
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: Jim Chung]
      #5640905 - 01/24/13 03:18 PM

There also has to be a cricital mass shift in the AP image acquision software to add good support for Nikon cameras.

Also there is still a lot of lag from the days that Nikon cameras automatically filtered out stars via in-built noise reduction and all the hacks required to defeat this. That started the "Nikon is no good" perception over 8 years ago.


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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: Tonk]
      #5640965 - 01/24/13 03:56 PM

I think that Guylain (BackyardEOS author) is working on a companion software to control Nikon DSLRs due out later this year!

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Footbag
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: Jim Chung]
      #5641127 - 01/24/13 05:41 PM

Quote:

I think that Guylain (BackyardEOS author) is working on a companion software to control Nikon DSLRs due out later this year!




I've heard that as well. There's also a guy doing mono conversions for Nikon's.

Truth is, there are two people within this thread who could do more for Nikon astro-imaging then Nikon could/would do themselves.


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SteveRosenow
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: Tonk]
      #5641153 - 01/24/13 05:53 PM

Quote:

There also has to be a cricital mass shift in the AP image acquision software to add good support for Nikon cameras.

Also there is still a lot of lag from the days that Nikon cameras automatically filtered out stars via in-built noise reduction and all the hacks required to defeat this. That started the "Nikon is no good" perception over 8 years ago.




And that "star-eating noise reduction" was completely eliminated upon the release of the D5100/D7000.


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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5641480 - 01/24/13 09:01 PM

It was eliminated WELL before the D5100/D7000..
In any case, it doesnt matter now anyways!

In fact, there is proof out there that SOME Canon models actually DO this! And have done this over the years with several models..
I dont want to start a debate or anything..
Just trying to show that people have been stuck on the "Holy Grail=Canon" for reasons that are very outdated and of no consequence now!
Use whatever camera you have/can afford/feel comfortable using, and just get out there and shoot! Who cares if one is slightly better than the next...it is a never ending debate..and is really splitting hairs in some cases..

Cheers!


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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: Footbag]
      #5642740 - 01/25/13 02:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I think that Guylain (BackyardEOS author) is working on a companion software to control Nikon DSLRs due out later this year!




I've heard that as well. There's also a guy doing mono conversions for Nikon's.

Truth is, there are two people within this thread who could do more for Nikon astro-imaging then Nikon could/would do themselves.




Yes this is correct; BackyardNIK is in the works.

Guylain


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SteveRosenow
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: Footbag]
      #5642896 - 01/25/13 04:11 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I think that Guylain (BackyardEOS author) is working on a companion software to control Nikon DSLRs due out later this year!




I've heard that as well. There's also a guy doing mono conversions for Nikon's.

Truth is, there are two people within this thread who could do more for Nikon astro-imaging then Nikon could/would do themselves.




I would have no problem stepping into a role of spokesman for Nikon in terms of astrophotography. It says something when you use a camera whose sensor outranks Canons by a wide margin.


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TopherTheME
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5643061 - 01/25/13 05:59 PM

You all wanna talk about how Nikon outperforms Canon in terms of image noise and sensitivity? How about the camera brand that outperforms them all, PENTAX! The K-5 (II, IIs) outperforms ALL Canons and the D5100 along with the D7000 in terms of noise and sensitivity and really overall image quality. Its also weather sealed and cold proof. It has in camera image stabilization (YEAH image stabilization with your telescope! not that you would need it).

And for those of you that like to use old manual lenses, Pentax hasn't changed their mount in 30+ years. That means you can use any K-mount lens Pentax has every made.

Really, the only reason not buy a Pentax (or even Nikon) over a Canon is that you can't use BYEOS and those clip in filters may not work. There just really is no other selling point to Canon cameras for AP.

And did I mention the K-5 IIs has no AA filter allowing for sharper (higher resolution) images?

Edited by TopherTheME (01/25/13 06:00 PM)


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terry59
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5643209 - 01/25/13 07:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The D5100/D7000 also uses a Sony CMOS sensor which, in benchmark tests, blew the barn doors off of the 5DMkII




I totally agree.

I have both the D5100 and D7000 and a 10 minute dark frame at 20 Celsius shows next to no noise at all. Their sensors are freak'in awesome!

Guylain




And yet people seem to still think Canon's the holy grail in terms of AP...

If people truly gave Nikon a shot and tested a D5100/D7000 out, they'd never go back.




I really want to get a D5100 but I'd like to see more actual performance over a wider range of targets, with a modified camera, using various LP and NB filters. There just aren't many images out there at all...


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SteveRosenow
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: terry59]
      #5643265 - 01/25/13 08:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The D5100/D7000 also uses a Sony CMOS sensor which, in benchmark tests, blew the barn doors off of the 5DMkII




I totally agree.

I have both the D5100 and D7000 and a 10 minute dark frame at 20 Celsius shows next to no noise at all. Their sensors are freak'in awesome!

Guylain




And yet people seem to still think Canon's the holy grail in terms of AP...

If people truly gave Nikon a shot and tested a D5100/D7000 out, they'd never go back.




I really want to get a D5100 but I'd like to see more actual performance over a wider range of targets, with a modified camera, using various LP and NB filters. There just aren't many images out there at all...




I've been trying to do that at least with my unmodified camera, however for the last three months I've been sort of precluded from doing so due to a persistent and rather soaking cloud cover that began in the first week of October. And lately, just when ya think things are clearing out, we get socked in again.

To say I've had a frustrating late fall/winter deep sky imaging season is a vast understatement.


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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: terry59]
      #5643280 - 01/25/13 08:12 PM

Quote:

I really want to get a D5100 but I'd like to see more actual performance over a wider range of targets, with a modified camera, using various LP and NB filters. There just aren't many images out there at all...





Why wait? A D5100 body only nowadays is just over the $400 mark ~ brand new. Granted, it's $400 buckaroos but it's not like it was 5 years ago where a Canon 40D was $2000.

The D5100 and D7000 have the same sony sensor... so if you can find D7000 images consider them the same as having been taken with a D7000.

Guylain


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terry59
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: guyroch]
      #5643909 - 01/26/13 08:00 AM

Quote:


Why wait? A D5100 body only nowadays is just over the $400 mark ~ brand new. Granted, it's $400 buckaroos but it's not like it was 5 years ago where a Canon 40D was $2000.





I have a functioning, albeit noisy, modified D50. I can't find a new D5100 body for $400. The cheapest is just under $500. I a VERY tempted based on Steve's two recent images though


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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: terry59]
      #5644032 - 01/26/13 09:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:


Why wait? A D5100 body only nowadays is just over the $400 mark ~ brand new. Granted, it's $400 buckaroos but it's not like it was 5 years ago where a Canon 40D was $2000.





I have a functioning, albeit noisy, modified D50. I can't find a new D5100 body for $400. The cheapest is just under $500. I a VERY tempted based on Steve's two recent images though




I got one of my brand new D5100 from these guys in Toronto, Canada for $429 last week (on their ebay store). That camera is now in the mail on its way to Jim to be MONOfied.

Guylain

Edited by guyroch (01/26/13 09:38 AM)


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terry59
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: guyroch]
      #5644066 - 01/26/13 09:59 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


Why wait? A D5100 body only nowadays is just over the $400 mark ~ brand new. Granted, it's $400 buckaroos but it's not like it was 5 years ago where a Canon 40D was $2000.





I have a functioning, albeit noisy, modified D50. I can't find a new D5100 body for $400. The cheapest is just under $500. I a VERY tempted based on Steve's two recent images though




I got one of my brand new D5100 from these guys in Toronto, Canada for $429 last week (on their ebay store). That camera is now in the mail on its way to Jim to be MONOfied.

Guylain




I'm looking forward to seeing how it performs. Which NB filters do you plan to use with it?


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guyroch
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: terry59]
      #5644190 - 01/26/13 11:04 AM

Quote:

I'm looking forward to seeing how it performs. Which NB filters do you plan to use with it?




I'll probably want to still keep using a FL and/or FF with the MONOfied D5100. This means that I won't be able to use a filter wheel so manual filter changing it will have to be.

I'll probably stick to HA, SII, OIII with this camera. I think it will become my favorite Hubble pallet camera.

Guylain


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Jerry Lodriguss
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: TopherTheME]
      #5644848 - 01/26/13 06:18 PM

Quote:

You all wanna talk about how Nikon outperforms Canon in terms of image noise and sensitivity? How about the camera brand that outperforms them all, PENTAX! The K-5 (II, IIs) outperforms ALL Canons and the D5100 along with the D7000 in terms of noise and sensitivity and really overall image quality.




I'm curious to see where this evaluation is quantified.

Can you provide a link?

Thanks,

Jerry


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SteveRosenow
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: Jerry Lodriguss]
      #5644865 - 01/26/13 06:29 PM

His claims are falling short on Pentax.

According to DxO Labs, Nikon is blowing even Canon away in sensor score ratings. The D5200 is even beating the Pentax K-5

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Camera-Sensor-Ratings/List-view


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SteveRosenow
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: TopherTheME]
      #5644874 - 01/26/13 06:34 PM

Quote:

You all wanna talk about how Nikon outperforms Canon in terms of image noise and sensitivity? How about the camera brand that outperforms them all, PENTAX! The K-5 (II, IIs) outperforms ALL Canons and the D5100 along with the D7000 in terms of noise and sensitivity and really overall image quality. Its also weather sealed and cold proof. It has in camera image stabilization (YEAH image stabilization with your telescope! not that you would need it).

And for those of you that like to use old manual lenses, Pentax hasn't changed their mount in 30+ years. That means you can use any K-mount lens Pentax has every made.

Really, the only reason not buy a Pentax (or even Nikon) over a Canon is that you can't use BYEOS and those clip in filters may not work. There just really is no other selling point to Canon cameras for AP.

And did I mention the K-5 IIs has no AA filter allowing for sharper (higher resolution) images?




You are grossly incorrect.

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Camera-Sensor-Ratings/List-view

Additionally, Nikon has had the same F-mount lens mount bayonet for over 50 years. Beats Pentax by a longshot.

Furthermore, the D5100 and D5200 features not only lens element-shift but also sensor-shift image stabilization. I speak with solid experience in this as a professional photographer who shoots exclusively with a Nikon D5100.

And according to DxO Labs, the D5200 is beating the Pentax.


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Jerry Lodriguss
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5644877 - 01/26/13 06:35 PM

Quote:

I don't think it should be a matter of how committed Nikon is - or is not - in terms of astro-photography camera platforms, insomuch as it has everything to do with the perception that Canons are the Holy Grail despite four of Nikon's latest camera models blowing the barn doors off of their direct Canon competitors. The D5100/D7000 vastly outperformed the higher-end Canon 5DMkII in every benchmark test aside from video and in noise reduction - especially in low-light, high-ISO settings, both walked away from Canon.

DxO Labs, in fact, gave its sensor a score of 80, which was far above the ratings held by much more expensive Canon competitors.




Hi Steve,

Could you provide a link to these direct comparisons where these Nikons "blow the doors off" the Canons in some long-exposure deep-sky imaging comparisons?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend Canon. I have used both Nikon and Canon professionally, I don't have any marriage to either. I just don't care which one I use.

I haven't seen any tests or reports or evaluations of any cameras by the usual suspects that have a clue about long-exposure astrophotography. They are all daytime tests, and even those are not very good (such as DPReviews).

For example, none of them use long-exposure raw images that are correctly calibrated with darks, bias and flats.

Honestly, all of the daytime tests I have seen are pretty much a joke for the issues that concern astrophotographers. They are basically meaningless.

To say the Nikons blow the doors off the Canons in daytime tests doesn't really give me any useful information.

I would like to see some controlled and quantified astrophotographic tests comparing these cameras. Can you point any out to me?

Your horsehead image is very nice btw!

Jerry


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SteveRosenow
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: Jerry Lodriguss]
      #5644895 - 01/26/13 06:45 PM

The basis of testing a camera model for astrophotography is really moot when DSLR's for astrophotography is a relatively new concept and it wasn't until very recently in the history of the DSLR (which by the way Nikon pioneered with the D1) that Canon first offered one strictly for the purpose.

In terms of test results, we only have a couple (if you count the various photos taken with the D7000/D5100 vs the 5D MkII, etc).

I don't shoot Canon and never will, beats the purpose of having to give up a platform with over 50 years of lens interchangeability (read: being able to shoot a 40-year-old Nikkor on my D5100; can't do that with Canons), but I think with Nikon's sensor score beating Canons lately, and with Nikon having the best in-camera noise reduction, it's a safe bet Nikon will at some point be the preferred camera to use in terms of astrophotography.

I say this because when the D5100/D7000 came out, every review website out there gave them much higher marks over the Canon 5D Mark II with exception to video. And those high marks had a lot to do with the new Sony sensor and Nikon's new noise reduction algorithms in low-light situations.

That isn't to say we need more data, though. I agree, we do, but for now, Nikon is walking away, and according to DxO Labs' latest tests, quite resoundingly, away from any Canon on the market.


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TopherTheME
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5644909 - 01/26/13 06:54 PM

Quote:



You are grossly incorrect.

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Camera-Sensor-Ratings/List-view

Additionally, Nikon has had the same F-mount lens for over 50 years. Beats Pentax by a longshot.

Furthermore, the D5100 and D5200 features not only lens element-shift but also sensor-shift image stabilization. I speak with solid experience in this as a professional photographer who shoots exclusively with a Nikon D5100.

And according to DxO Labs, the D5200 is beating the Pentax.




There is nothing incorrect about any of my statements. The K-5 does outperform both the d5100 and the d7000. Yes, the new d5200 has a slightly higher rating but I never said it didn't. And BTW, its the only APS-C camera that does, as it should given its a brand new camera with a state of the art sensor.

As for lens compatibility, you're telling me that you can use any pre-AI Nikkor lens on your d5100? Cause this chart says otherwise.

http://resources.nikonians.org/reviews?alias=nikon-slr-camera-and-lens-compat...


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Tonk
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5644911 - 01/26/13 06:55 PM

Quote:

when DSLR's for astrophotography is a relatively new concept




New ?? Really. Ive been using DSLR for astrophotography for 10 years as have plenty of others. I think the DLSR pioneers were trailblazing just about 12 years ago. Thats a long time in this age of rapid technology changes.


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SteveRosenow
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: TopherTheME]
      #5644916 - 01/26/13 06:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:



You are grossly incorrect.

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Camera-Sensor-Ratings/List-view

Additionally, Nikon has had the same F-mount lens for over 50 years. Beats Pentax by a longshot.

Furthermore, the D5100 and D5200 features not only lens element-shift but also sensor-shift image stabilization. I speak with solid experience in this as a professional photographer who shoots exclusively with a Nikon D5100.

And according to DxO Labs, the D5200 is beating the Pentax.




There is nothing incorrect about any of my statements. The K-5 does outperform both the d5100 and the d7000. Yes, the new d5200 has a slightly higher rating but I never said it didn't. And BTW, its the only APS-C camera that does, as it should given its a brand new camera with a state of the art sensor.

As for lens compatibility, you're telling me that you can use any pre-AI Nikkor lens on your d5100? Cause this chart says otherwise.

http://resources.nikonians.org/reviews?alias=nikon-slr-camera-and-lens-compat...




You can use ANY Nikkor lens, pre-AI or not, as long as you use it manually on ANY Nikon DSLR.

I know this as fact because I currently have a 50mm 1.4 Nikkor mounted to my Nikon D5100 that originally came off of my Nikkormat FTn.


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Jerry Lodriguss
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5644991 - 01/26/13 07:41 PM

Quote:

The basis of testing a camera model for astrophotography is really moot when DSLR's for astrophotography is a relatively new concept...




Huh?

Testing a camera for astrophotography is hardly moot when the cameras under discussion here are used for astrophotography.

The rest of your reply is just hand waving, unfortunately.

As I said before, everyone is testing these cameras for daytime use, and astrophotography is a completely different subject with completely different requirements in a camera.


Jerry


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Jerry Lodriguss
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5644997 - 01/26/13 07:46 PM

Quote:

I don't shoot Canon and never will, beats the purpose of having to give up a platform with over 50 years of lens interchangeability (read: being able to shoot a 40-year-old Nikkor on my D5100; can't do that with Canons),




Sure you can. I use my old Nikon lenses on my Canon bodies. :-)

And


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terry59
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: Jerry Lodriguss]
      #5645009 - 01/26/13 07:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The basis of testing a camera model for astrophotography is really moot when DSLR's for astrophotography is a relatively new concept...




Huh?

Testing a camera for astrophotography is hardly moot when the cameras under discussion here are used for astrophotography.

The rest of your reply is just hand waving, unfortunately.

As I said before, everyone is testing these cameras for daytime use, and astrophotography is a completely different subject with completely different requirements in a camera.


Jerry




Jerry - I know of two CN members with a modded D5100. One name escapes me but he got his at Spencers and the other is TimN who got his modded by Brent Oliver just recently and I haven't seen any images yet.

Edit: Astronewb is the other

Edited by terry59 (01/26/13 07:54 PM)


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SteveRosenow
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: Jerry Lodriguss]
      #5645013 - 01/26/13 07:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The basis of testing a camera model for astrophotography is really moot when DSLR's for astrophotography is a relatively new concept...




Huh?

Testing a camera for astrophotography is hardly moot when the cameras under discussion here are used for astrophotography.

The rest of your reply is just hand waving, unfortunately.

As I said before, everyone is testing these cameras for daytime use, and astrophotography is a completely different subject with completely different requirements in a camera.


Jerry




And if you read my reply, I said I agree that we need more tests. Unfortunately there's really none except the photos out there.

With respect the the last part, I can shoot perfectly with my Nikon without any needed requirements for astrophotography.


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SteveRosenow
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: Jerry Lodriguss]
      #5645018 - 01/26/13 07:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I don't shoot Canon and never will, beats the purpose of having to give up a platform with over 50 years of lens interchangeability (read: being able to shoot a 40-year-old Nikkor on my D5100; can't do that with Canons),




Sure you can. I use my old Nikon lenses on my Canon bodies. :-)

And




That's not what I was talking about.


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Tonk
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5645102 - 01/26/13 08:43 PM

Then what are you talking about - this is an DSLR forum about astrophotography.

I know exactly what Jerry is asking. Lets go back a few years. Nikon cameras had the annoying ability to automatically use an internal firmware filter that killed stars in your image - treating them as noise.

So Nikons are great cameras with brilliant sensors and fine lens, but those camera were nearly useless for long exposure astrophotographyw without applying various mode hacks. RAW in those Nikons we not actually RAW - some image processing had been done. Canons on the other hand were fine.

So until proper tests are actually done you just can't go round extrapolating daytime photography results into some claim about astrophotography. The camera has to do the right things all down the astrophotography work flow - including unadulterated RAW images suitable for calibration


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SteveRosenow
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: Tonk]
      #5645155 - 01/26/13 09:27 PM

Quote:

Then what are you talking about - this is an DSLR forum about astrophotography.

I know exactly what Jerry is asking. Lets go back a few years. Nikon cameras had the annoying ability to automatically use an internal firmware filter that killed stars in your image - treating them as noise.

So Nikons are great cameras with brilliant sensors and fine lens, but those camera were nearly useless for long exposure astrophotographyw without applying various mode hacks. RAW in those Nikons we not actually RAW - some image processing had been done. Canons on the other hand were fine.

So until proper tests are actually done you just can't go round extrapolating daytime photography results into some claim about astrophotography. The camera has to do the right things all down the astrophotography work flow - including unadulterated RAW images suitable for calibration




Yes, but that "star-eating noise reduction" is no longer present on the D5100/D7000.

In case you guys can't remember this:

http://www.eprisephoto.com/nikon-d7000.pdf

That was an article done by someone who, as I recall, is a member here.

Also, what I was talking about, is that you can use any Nikkor lens - on any Nikon camera DSLR or not - in manual mode. It doesn't matter what lens, nor camera. As long as it is an F-mount bayonet it is compatible. That is irrefutable.

Holding Nikon's transgressions of noise reductions in the past against them in the present, despite clear and concise evidence in the form of photos from both cameras (D5100/D7000) displaying absolutely no "star-eating" characteristics, plus their sensor ratings surpassing virtually everyone else in overall quality, should say something.


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harbinjer
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5645350 - 01/27/13 01:09 AM

Steve, I can, and have shot old Nikon, Pentax, and various M42 mount lenses on my Canon Rebel. And I could even use the metering. Even better are the new mirrorless cameras.

Now Nikon's sensor could certainly be the better one overall. But DxoMark is also splitting hairs where they sometimes don't need to be split. This is because no one would care if all new cameras performed within the margin or error of the average user. Even those amazing dynamic range numbers are much less impressive once you compare them at ISO 800-1600.

My next camera could very well be a Nikon, but I don't think it will be because of some Dxomark numbers, or any mainstream daytime photography website numbers. Or I could just get a mono CCD and not worry about what DSLR's come out next.


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SteveRosenow
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: harbinjer]
      #5645393 - 01/27/13 02:32 AM

Quote:

Steve, I can, and have shot old Nikon, Pentax, and various M42 mount lenses on my Canon Rebel. And I could even use the metering. Even better are the new mirrorless cameras.






And you missed my point. Just like Jerry did.

My point was that you can shoot a 40-year-old Nikkor on any Nikon DSLR WITHOUT the use of an adapter like what is necessary to the same on Canon models.

The astrophotography hobby shouldn't be about who can spend the most on bayonet ring adapters, scopes, mounts, etc. It shouldn't be about the most money spent on every bit of apparatus imaginable. It should be about practicality, and in terms of practicality in DSLR's, Nikon DSLRs exceed Canon's in the respect that no adapter is needed to shoot a 40-year-old Nikkor on a Nikon DSLR because the F-mount bayonet ring is the exact same. My Nikkormat FTns that I have, and the lenses that came with them, are interchangeable with the D5100. (Retroactively the same can't be said for throwing a new AF-S DX Nikkor on a Nikkormat. It'll work, but the aperture will be stopped down)

The sheer reason there are no test results on Nikon DSLRs is because there's still an apparent and unjust negative light being painted to Nikon DSLRs in general due to noise reduction algorithms on earlier models. Those noise reduction algorithms have been completely eliminated in the Nikons being offered now starting with the D5100/D7000 models, and due to the perception of early Nikons, the astrophotography community is hesitant to give Nikon the fair and equal chance it deserves.

I know what the D5100 can do, and I know full well that it can and will surpass any Canon put before it. I shoot with it as the primary camera for my photography business and I've taken five award-winning photos and a host of others that have received wide recognition and publishing rights (including a couple that are being published in the 2014 Ripley's Believe it or Not! annual publication due out in late september/early October). This goes for my two most recent astrophotography images shot with it - the Great Orion Nebula and the Horsehead Nebula shot last week.

Continuing to cast Nikon in a negative light despite the vast improvements in sensor imaging quality on current models is, in my opinion, the most misguided and lopsided approach, and borders on irresponsible.


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Tonk
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5645477 - 01/27/13 04:51 AM

Quote:

Also, what I was talking about, is that you can use any Nikkor lens - on any Nikon camera DSLR or not - in manual mode. It doesn't matter what lens, nor camera. As long as it is an F-mount bayonet it is compatible. That is irrefutable.




I think we all got that quite some time ago. No need to labour the point

Quote:

Yes, but that "star-eating noise reduction" is no longer present on the D5100/D7000.




Clearly you too didn't actual read what was said "... Lets go back a few years ... " I was conceding this problem has gone but what else is in the way? is what I'm asking.

My allegorical point was simple. When someone has done an actual study of the camera in very long exposure mode and published figures/report then until then we don't know what the camera is actually capable of for AP.

As Jerry says - simply quoting the camera on its daylight capabilities is flawed.

Maybe this is now going round in circles.

What I'd be really be interested in is any AP shots that anyone has done with this camera. Any pointers?



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SteveRosenow
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: Tonk]
      #5645521 - 01/27/13 06:02 AM

Quote:



My allegorical point was simple. When someone has done an actual study of the camera in very long exposure mode and published figures/report then until then we don't know what the camera is actually capable of for AP.






I already posted one result, from a fellow board member. I think you just skipped over it.

In case you missed it, let's try again:

http://www.eprisephoto.com/nikon-d7000.pdf

Quote:




What I'd be really be interested in is any AP shots that anyone has done with this camera. Any pointers?






I've posted several examples on this forum of my works taken with the Nikon D5100. It's not my fault you've missed them.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8195/8385486495_2cd2b55679_b.jpg <--- Horsehead and Flame Nebulas.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8188/8385486513_c40c658163_b.jpg <--- The Great Orion Nebula and Running Man Nebulas.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8185/8105215529_0e52d74e05_b.jpg <--- The Pleiades

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8450/8062245613_f266a1d6f4_b.jpg <---The Andromeda Galaxy..


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Jerry Lodriguss
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5645583 - 01/27/13 08:06 AM

Quote:

My point was that you can shoot a 40-year-old Nikkor on any Nikon DSLR WITHOUT the use of an adapter like what is necessary to the same on Canon models.

The astrophotography hobby shouldn't be about who can spend the most on bayonet ring adapters, scopes, mounts, etc. It shouldn't be about the most money spent on every bit of apparatus imaginable.




This is a bit overly dramatic don't you think?

The Nikon F to Canon EOS adapter is $16.




Quote:

It should be about practicality, and in terms of practicality in DSLR's, Nikon DSLRs exceed Canon's in the respect that no adapter is needed to shoot a 40-year-old Nikkor on a Nikon DSLR because the F-mount bayonet ring is the exact same.




$16 for an adapter is not really a game breaker.


Quote:

The sheer reason there are no test results on Nikon DSLRs is because there's still an apparent and unjust negative light being painted to Nikon DSLRs in general due to noise reduction algorithms on earlier models. Those noise reduction algorithms have been completely eliminated in the Nikons being offered now starting with the D5100/D7000 models, and due to the perception of early Nikons, the astrophotography community is hesitant to give Nikon the fair and equal chance it deserves.




No, it's not because the astrophotography community is irrationally prejudiced against Nikon.

It's that these cameras are relatively new and have not been tested yet quantitatively (and not anecdotally) by folks like Roger Clark or Christian Buil who actually know what they are doing.

Quote:

I know what the D5100 can do, and I know full well that it can and will surpass any Canon put before it.




How exactly do you know this for a fact for astrophotography? Haven't you admitted that you have not even used a Canon?

It doesn't seem like your opinions are based on fact so much as blind faith.

Quote:

I shoot with it as the primary camera for my photography business and I've taken five award-winning photos and a host of others that have received wide recognition and publishing rights (including a couple that are being published in the 2014 Ripley's Believe it or Not! annual publication due out in late september/early October). This goes for my two most recent astrophotography images shot with it - the Great Orion Nebula and the Horsehead Nebula shot last week.




"Ripley's Believe It or Not" is what you are presenting as an objective quantitative source for expertise on long-exposure astrophotography?

Really?

Quote:

Continuing to cast Nikon in a negative light despite the vast improvements in sensor imaging quality on current models is, in my opinion, the most misguided and lopsided approach, and borders on irresponsible.




I'm not casting Nikon in a negative light at all.

As I said in my first post, I have used both professionally over the last 35 years. I don't have any emotional attachment to either.

I would not hesitate to pick up a Nikon if it was quantitatively proved to be significantly superior for the specific task of astrophotography.

This has not been demonstrated yet.

Furthermore there are other considerations.

From a practical usability standpoint, something that you make a big deal of with the lenses, to run a Nikon from a computer requires two cables, instead of a single USB cable.

For some reason, Nikon, in its wisdom, doesn't allow exposures longer than 30 seconds with their camera control software (which costs a lot, btw).

So, to use a Nikon controlled by a computer, which is required for dithering, you need an additional cable and additional software, which is an additional expense (which was a big deal to you) and additional layer of complexity and PITA factor and something else that can go wrong.

Additionally, and even if Nikon is not applying a median filter anymore, there is still a question of whether Nikon is still clipping the black point, which is a significant consideration in accurate calibration.

The question of how much, if any, the Nikon sensors (well, actually whoever Nikon is having make their sensors for them) are superior in terms of noise, or final signal-to-noise ratio, in low-light long-exposure astrophotography, remains to be quantitatively answered.

We are not irrationally prejudiced against Nikon. I think most people are smart enough to have an open mind when presented with clear and unambiguous facts, but not just opinions like (to paraphrase) 'Nikon "blows the doors off" Canon in daytime tests, so they must be clearly superior for astrophotography'.

As I have said repeatedly, I've used both Canon and Nikon and I'm not married to either. :-)

Jerry


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terry59
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5645603 - 01/27/13 08:26 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Steve, I can, and have shot old Nikon, Pentax, and various M42 mount lenses on my Canon Rebel. And I could even use the metering. Even better are the new mirrorless cameras.






And you missed my point. Just like Jerry did.

My point was that you can shoot a 40-year-old Nikkor on any Nikon DSLR WITHOUT the use of an adapter like what is necessary to the same on Canon models.

The astrophotography hobby shouldn't be about who can spend the most on bayonet ring adapters, scopes, mounts, etc. It shouldn't be about the most money spent on every bit of apparatus imaginable. It should be about practicality, and in terms of practicality in DSLR's, Nikon DSLRs exceed Canon's in the respect that no adapter is needed to shoot a 40-year-old Nikkor on a Nikon DSLR because the F-mount bayonet ring is the exact same. My Nikkormat FTns that I have, and the lenses that came with them, are interchangeable with the D5100. (Retroactively the same can't be said for throwing a new AF-S DX Nikkor on a Nikkormat. It'll work, but the aperture will be stopped down)

The sheer reason there are no test results on Nikon DSLRs is because there's still an apparent and unjust negative light being painted to Nikon DSLRs in general due to noise reduction algorithms on earlier models. Those noise reduction algorithms have been completely eliminated in the Nikons being offered now starting with the D5100/D7000 models, and due to the perception of early Nikons, the astrophotography community is hesitant to give Nikon the fair and equal chance it deserves.

I know what the D5100 can do, and I know full well that it can and will surpass any Canon put before it. I shoot with it as the primary camera for my photography business and I've taken five award-winning photos and a host of others that have received wide recognition and publishing rights (including a couple that are being published in the 2014 Ripley's Believe it or Not! annual publication due out in late september/early October). This goes for my two most recent astrophotography images shot with it - the Great Orion Nebula and the Horsehead Nebula shot last week.

Continuing to cast Nikon in a negative light despite the vast improvements in sensor imaging quality on current models is, in my opinion, the most misguided and lopsided approach, and borders on irresponsible.




Steve - Wow...I think that your approach here isn't going to help the cause. As with any product, once a perception is in place, it takes a lot to change it. Unfortunately, AP software support for Nikon has been virtually non existant although that looks to be changing and may be the catalyst to get people interested.

I am a Nikon user who has no desire to switch and have been using my D50 even though it's quite noisy. I searched for capture software and found TetherPro to provide the basic functionality I needed, specifically moving files to the laptop, being able to use the laptop to view subs, zoom in to help focus and a histogram to help with exposure length. I contacted Todd Gibbs, the creator of TetherPro and suggested some improvements to make it better for AP. He said he'd get back to me....that was a year ago. Now, Guylain is creating a Nikon version of BackyardEOS that I expect will get a lot of attention.

A few months ago I purchased an Atik CCD mono camera primarily for narrowband imaging but still use and enjoy the DSLR. I use Sequence Generator Pro with the CCD and have asked the creators to add nikon support (it supports Canon). They just released a new version and asked what three features users would most like to see in the next one. When I voted, Nikon support was on the list and had a couple of votes already so I'm hopeful that it will be added soon.

I think those things, plus just getting images and showing them here will be the best thing. We need more modded D5100's out there. I would love to have one myself but having spent the money on a CCD, filters, filter wheel, etc., and the fact that my modded D50 still works, I am reluctant to spend another $800 right now.

If you want to help, send yours to Brent Oliver for the mod and keep posting your images.


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terry59
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: Jerry Lodriguss]
      #5645609 - 01/27/13 08:36 AM

Quote:



From a practical usability standpoint, something that you make a big deal of with the lenses, to run a Nikon from a computer requires two cables, instead of a single USB cable.

For some reason, Nikon, in its wisdom, doesn't allow exposures longer than 30 seconds with their camera control software (which costs a lot, btw).

So, to use a Nikon controlled by a computer, which is required for dithering, you need an additional cable and additional software, which is an additional expense (which was a big deal to you) and additional layer of complexity and PITA factor and something else that can go wrong.

Additionally, and even if Nikon is not applying a median filter anymore, there is still a question of whether Nikon is still clipping the black point, which is a significant consideration in accurate calibration.

The question of how much, if any, the Nikon sensors (well, actually whoever Nikon is having make their sensors for them) are superior in terms of noise, or final signal-to-noise ratio, in low-light long-exposure astrophotography, remains to be quantitatively answered.

We are not irrationally prejudiced against Nikon. I think most people are smart enough to have an open mind when presented with clear and unambiguous facts, but not just opinions like (to paraphrase) 'Nikon "blows the doors off" Canon in daytime tests, so they must be clearly superior for astrophotography'.

As I have said repeatedly, I've used both Canon and Nikon and I'm not married to either. :-)

Jerry




I'd hate to see this thread locked because it has the most discussion of Nikon I've seen in a long time but, Jerry, I have to ask...what is your beef about needing two cables with a Nikon? I've seen you bring that up many times as though it is a real issue. I've never has a problem using a USB cable and the shutter control cable so I've always wondered.


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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5645633 - 01/27/13 08:53 AM

Not to gang up on Steve, my point is simple...we are talking astrophotography (AP) and Canon has 'little' to show for (i.e., 20Da, 60Da) while Nikon has 'nothing'. I think there is enough blame to go around for both Canon and Nikon; may be little less for Canon. What really needs to happen is if either was serious about AP they would produce a serious DSLR camera for AP that was better than all the mods of the day and one that would even challenge mono CCD while staying in color space [since the ‘total pixel’ war seems to have been won by DSLR].

Serious’ CCDs (i.e., mono) are bulky, clunky, boxy, and color blind while ‘yet not so serious’ DSLRs are slim, agile, figured, and color sensitive; a serious effort is needed by both Canon and Nikon to close the mono CCD gap, while introducing needed AP innovation within existing DSLR space. I am NOT advocating DSLR somehow becoming CCD like; what I am saying is that color DSLR has the potential to challenge mono CCD if serious AP effort was made by Canon or Nikon. I am definitely NOT advocating mono DSLR; that would be a step back in my opinion.

If you were a CCDer, you would laugh at both Canon and Nikon in terms of what they have done for AP; if you were a DSLRer, you would keep wondering when/how to make the switch to mono CCD, very reluctantly though, and leave this petty debate behind.

Folks, why don't we say it like it is and tell Canons and Nikons of the world it is time they got serious about AP? Thx


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SteveRosenow
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: terry59]
      #5645634 - 01/27/13 08:53 AM

Right now, finances are very tight for me and my D5100 is my only DSLR and it's also the one I use for my photography business in general. I have no plans on ever having it modified and I am not one of the persuasion that thinks you should have to have a DSLR modified for the purpose of astrophotography, as there are plenty of exceptional astrophotographs taken without modded DSLRs.

That and I just don't foresee having the financial resources to even buy a spare D5100 body to even consider having that done - for a very, very long time. At least until business starts to pick back up and I can make that sort of discretionary expense.

Also, I am sorry if people think I'm harsh on the subject of the D5100/D7000, but as an accomplished and award-winning photographer who makes a major portion of my living on freelance and portrait photography, I tend to have at least a little bit of technical knowledge in the matter. Especially since when I was in the purchasing process, I considered the 5D MkII and the D5100/D7000 and when I read the reviews of the D5100's performance outweighing the former, well, the rest is history. And seeing as how we already have one established review of the D7000, that should at least count for something - and that same review (which I've posted above) should also count just as equally for the D5100 as they both share the exact same Sony sensor.

Another contributing reason why I am not-so-keen on modding my D5100, is because of the sheer fact I live in a location where I technically don't see the need for it. Sky conditions here where I live without moonlight and clouds are almost at the boundary between 1 and two on the Bortle dark sky chart. If Venus is in a gibbous phase and it's high in the sky before twilight, it'll be bright enough to cast shadows on the walls of the house. Even glow from the Milky Way is enough to light things up a bit here.





As for posting more photos, I definitely plan on doing so shall I be afforded decent weather opportunity as the last few months have been dismal. I want to raise awareness that Nikon isn't such a bad choice for DSLRs anymore, and I also want to raise awareness in the community that they possibly stand to at least be a strong competitor to Canon, if not causing Canon to compete, given the fact that all of Nikon's newest models are knocking the socks off the competition. That to me, as a professional photographer, speaks volumes to how Nikon has vastly improved their imaging sensor quality over the last several years.


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SteveRosenow
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: terry59]
      #5645643 - 01/27/13 09:06 AM

Quote:

Quote:



From a practical usability standpoint, something that you make a big deal of with the lenses, to run a Nikon from a computer requires two cables, instead of a single USB cable.

For some reason, Nikon, in its wisdom, doesn't allow exposures longer than 30 seconds with their camera control software (which costs a lot, btw).

So, to use a Nikon controlled by a computer, which is required for dithering, you need an additional cable and additional software, which is an additional expense (which was a big deal to you) and additional layer of complexity and PITA factor and something else that can go wrong.

Additionally, and even if Nikon is not applying a median filter anymore, there is still a question of whether Nikon is still clipping the black point, which is a significant consideration in accurate calibration.

The question of how much, if any, the Nikon sensors (well, actually whoever Nikon is having make their sensors for them) are superior in terms of noise, or final signal-to-noise ratio, in low-light long-exposure astrophotography, remains to be quantitatively answered.

We are not irrationally prejudiced against Nikon. I think most people are smart enough to have an open mind when presented with clear and unambiguous facts, but not just opinions like (to paraphrase) 'Nikon "blows the doors off" Canon in daytime tests, so they must be clearly superior for astrophotography'.

As I have said repeatedly, I've used both Canon and Nikon and I'm not married to either. :-)

Jerry




I'd hate to see this thread locked because it has the most discussion of Nikon I've seen in a long time but, Jerry, I have to ask...what is your beef about needing two cables with a Nikon? I've seen you bring that up many times as though it is a real issue. I've never has a problem using a USB cable and the shutter control cable so I've always wondered.




I have two cables coming out of my camera. The cable release for exposures longer than 30 seconds and the A/C power adapter. I definitely would not mind a third, seeing as how I shoot with a Meade LX-5 with the Computer-Assisted Telescope push-to system - which adds loads of cabling enough as it is.

Additionally, I already have that Nikon camera control software. I bought it along with my D5100. I just don't use it hardly because, personally, I'd rather do things manually, the way things were done before the age of the DSLR.


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Footbag
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5645680 - 01/27/13 09:35 AM

I have an AC cable and the USB coming from my Canon. I would love to eliminate the cables. Not only would it save setup time, but it would prevent snags and not wave in the wind.

The 6D seems interesting with this feature, but still needs powered AC. I dont think a grip will last a whole winter night. So theres still a cable, but one less.

My guess is shortly, all DSLR's will have WIFi.


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Jerry Lodriguss
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: terry59]
      #5645696 - 01/27/13 09:49 AM

Quote:

I'd hate to see this thread locked because it has the most discussion of Nikon I've seen in a long time but, Jerry, I have to ask...what is your beef about needing two cables with a Nikon? I've seen you bring that up many times as though it is a real issue. I've never has a problem using a USB cable and the shutter control cable so I've always wondered.




Hi Terry,

It's not a beef really, just an aggravation.

There is no reason Nikon can't support a control with a single USB cable, and yet they don't.

An additional cable is something else to get snagged, or broken, and something else that can go wrong.

It's not a big deal, but when Steve specifically cites "It should be about practicality, and in terms of practicality in DSLR's, Nikon DSLRs exceed Canon's...", then I mention this aspect of Nikon's "practicality".

Jerry


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terry59
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: Jerry Lodriguss]
      #5645753 - 01/27/13 10:23 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'd hate to see this thread locked because it has the most discussion of Nikon I've seen in a long time but, Jerry, I have to ask...what is your beef about needing two cables with a Nikon? I've seen you bring that up many times as though it is a real issue. I've never has a problem using a USB cable and the shutter control cable so I've always wondered.




Hi Terry,

It's not a beef really, just an aggravation.

There is no reason Nikon can't support a control with a single USB cable, and yet they don't.

An additional cable is something else to get snagged, or broken, and something else that can go wrong.

It's not a big deal, but when Steve specifically cites "It should be about practicality, and in terms of practicality in DSLR's, Nikon DSLRs exceed Canon's...", then I mention this aspect of Nikon's "practicality".

Jerry




Hi Jerry - Thanks for the response. I understand and respect your opinion here and hope that you'll be trying Guylain's Nikon software when it comes out. Your voice can have a significant impact


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terry59
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5645770 - 01/27/13 10:33 AM

Hey Steve - I understand your position on getting the camera modified. It's the same as Anna Morris's. Many do use a modded camera though, so some images with one would help. I'm pretty sure I'll bite the bullet and get one....the noise from my D50 is aggravating and limits what I'm willing to shoot and I'm not going to spend thousands on a large sensor CCD.

I'm looking forward to more images from you. You have real talent.


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TimN
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: terry59]
      #5646697 - 01/27/13 06:54 PM

I must admit being a Nikon user I enjoyed the discussion. I have a D5100 and recently had it modified by Brent Oliver. Unfortunately, the weather here has been worse than bad and I haven't had the opportunity to take any AP's. However, I did go birding yesterday and using CWB got some excellent shots, so the modification didn't detract from my daytime use.

Although I have a Nikon, I really feel that its more important to use what you have and get out and image - should the clouds ever clear. Whether one brand needs an extra adapter or the other an extra cable really doesn't matter too much. This reminds me of the chevy/ford discussions we used to have when I was a teenager. Still, I must admit as a Nikon user, I did get tired of every new user being advised to get a Canon without Nikon even being considered. For awhile I thought Terry59 and I were the only Nikon users, so its nice to see others realizing their potential. Still, I think both brands can now take some fantastic AP images and that's all that counts.

I will post some images with my modified D5100 as soon as I can - weather permitting. However, I am a fairly new imager and would hate to be the "example" of what a modified D5100 can do. So, would more of you D5100/D7000 Nikon users please get your cameras modified. Brent Oliver did mine and he was great to work with.


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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: TimN]
      #5646724 - 01/27/13 07:08 PM

I have to agree with Tim here. Use what you have and/or buy what feel is right for you. Any recent Canon or Nikon will do wonders. The rest will fall into place.

Guylain


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SteveRosenow
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: TimN]
      #5646738 - 01/27/13 07:18 PM

Quote:

I must admit being a Nikon user I enjoyed the discussion. I have a D5100 and recently had it modified by Brent Oliver. Unfortunately, the weather here has been worse than bad and I haven't had the opportunity to take any AP's. However, I did go birding yesterday and using CWB got some excellent shots, so the modification didn't detract from my daytime use.

Although I have a Nikon, I really feel that its more important to use what you have and get out and image - should the clouds ever clear. Whether one brand needs an extra adapter or the other an extra cable really doesn't matter too much. This reminds me of the chevy/ford discussions we used to have when I was a teenager. Still, I must admit as a Nikon user, I did get tired of every new user being advised to get a Canon without Nikon even being considered. For awhile I thought Terry59 and I were the only Nikon users, so its nice to see others realizing their potential. Still, I think both brands can now take some fantastic AP images and that's all that counts.

I will post some images with my modified D5100 as soon as I can - weather permitting. However, I am a fairly new imager and would hate to be the "example" of what a modified D5100 can do. So, would more of you D5100/D7000 Nikon users please get your cameras modified. Brent Oliver did mine and he was great to work with.




LOL, seems like you've contracted Astronomer's Curse alright. Happens with every upgrade/new equipment purchase in my experience!

As far as your sentiment of seeing every new user being recommended or advised to buy a Canon without no consideration to Nikon, I wholeheartedly agree. I am more than annoyed by it.

As for getting my existing camera modded, not yet, at least until I've got a spare body. And like I said, that might not happen for a while, so I'll continue posting photos - weather permitting - taken with my unmodified D5100.


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bilgebay
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: SteveRosenow]
      #5647938 - 01/28/13 11:52 AM

Well, I have joined Guylain and placed an order with Jim at Icodome to support this project. We will see what this camera is able achieve compared to Canons.

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guyroch
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: bilgebay]
      #5647974 - 01/28/13 12:06 PM

Quote:

Well, I have joined Guylain and placed an order with Jim at Icodome to support this project. We will see what this camera is able achieve compared to Canons.




Cool

Which model are you having MONOfied Sedat?

Guylain


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bilgebay
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: guyroch]
      #5648072 - 01/28/13 12:43 PM

D5100

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nofxrx
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: bilgebay]
      #5649179 - 01/28/13 08:23 PM

I second everything Tim has said.
Doesnt matter, NOWADAYS! Go with whatever camera you like as it will most likely be wonderful at AP.
It is a great time we live in with so many cameras with so much potential, and things only looking better for the future..
So just be happy with what we have and leave the hair splitting to the DxO guys(IMHO, SEVERELY OVER-rated and not worth ANYthing..not only my opinion either. check some photography related forums and you will see that DxO is laughed at a LOT! just sayin'..it's only numbers. and they dont count for much when there is no empirical data that actually backs it up(like real field tests)

Steve,
I am not sure why you have such an aversion to the modification because you are a "pro" photog.
I am also a "pro" photog/videographer and all I use is modified cameras, currently D800 and a D5200 (in the mail) as a backup/second shooter(and also a Full Spectrum Sony NEX-C3, LOVE this thing now that it is FS too!). Before that was: 1D Mark IV and 60D. THen 5D Mark II and 7D...and on and on..ALL modified.
NEVER had an issue. NEVER had an unhappy customer...and NEVER an "issue" to deal with in post processing..Really, there is maybe one or two clicks added to my processing routines for daytime pics with the modified cameras...
Use a CWB for your imaging(daytime) and you will never even notice a difference between a modified camera and a stock one..scratch that..you WILL notice that the modified camera has MORE sharpness, and BETTER color rendition/saturation!!(better images!)
Not trying to single you out or say anything negative, just trying to stress that people do NOT have to give up ANYthing(of important value to most) just because their camera is modified...

UNLESS that one thing you DO give up is needed, which is the ability to shoot in FULL AUTO, then modification is not for you. Get a 60Da and you will be set.
But no pro would ever use any Auto mode anyways..
(however the wife and some friends have used my cameras and cannot comprehend how to use a camera, let alone when NOT in auto LOL! )

Okay..done with my rant/rambling..
Back to your regularly scheduled program!

Edited by nofxrx (01/29/13 01:09 AM)


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pfile
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: nofxrx]
      #5649630 - 01/29/13 02:01 AM

no disrespect to anna, she is a great astrophotographer, but her paper kinda says "hey this looks pretty good!" there's no quantitative analysis of the sensor.

someone needs to do what craig stark has done over and over again for the different canon cameras. analyze the read noise, the dark current at different ISO, compute the unity gain, etc. etc. and someone needs to do what roger clark and christian buil have done; find the well depths, dynamic range and quantum efficiency of the various (new) nikon sensors.

only then are you going to be able to say this or that sensor blows the doors off of another sensor.


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fishonkevinModerator
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Re: Nikon DSLR is having a new image sensor supplier new [Re: nofxrx]
      #5649631 - 01/29/13 02:01 AM

This thread is over. There hasn't been any On Topic info lately. If any definitive tests on performance comes out, please start a new thread.

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