Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home pageAstronomics discounts for Cloudy Nights members
· Get a Cloudy Nights T-Shirt · Submit a Review / Article

Click here if you are having trouble logging into the forums

Privacy Policy | Please read our Terms of Service | Signup and Troubleshooting FAQ | Problems? PM a Red or a Green Gu… uh, User

Equipment Discussions >> Mounts

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | >> (show all)
HowardK
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 10/20/10

Re: Celestron StarSense new [Re: cn register 5]
      #6043242 - 08/24/13 09:40 AM

True ...having it plugged in will allow added calib stars

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: Celestron StarSense new [Re: Moromete]
      #6043355 - 08/24/13 10:51 AM

Keep in mind the task isn't centering a star. The device isn't trying to do anything you do when aligning a mount. It is recognizing a Star field and the pointing vector for the system is recognized based on where stars appear to be across the entire detector. This is a much finer resolution than the image on a single pixel, or even looking at a group of pixels a star is on and computing a centroid on that one star.

-Rich

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

2) Again, how good can SS alignment can be at 40mm F2 (so only 80mm FL), considering Meade Starlock has 2 cameras and 2 different FL objectives, one being a 80mm F5 scope (400mm FL)?




I'd expect it to very good. At 80mm focal length the resolution will be measured in arcseconds; that's plenty good enough for star alignment. If Meade used a longer FL scope for their star location, that would have no bearing on Celestron's system - but Meade does not. The 400mm focal length unit is the guidescope. Location is done via the widefield scope - which looks to be around 80mm long. It works fine for Meade (I have one) and should be just as good for Celestron.




I stand corrected. According to the manual SS objective is only 20mm F2 =>40mm FL!

Now that's worse than a humble 80mm FL which already too short for high precision star centering.

I doubt that SS will be usefull for someone who knows how to align well its mount and for ASPA.

How can you be so sure that Meade isn't using the 400mm F5 scope for alignment too, besides guiding?




Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
neilson
professor emeritus


Reged: 08/22/10

Re: Celestron StarSense new [Re: cn register 5]
      #6043734 - 08/24/13 02:30 PM

cn register 5
What ota were you using during your testing.

Neilson


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: Celestron StarSense new [Re: Starhawk]
      #6043787 - 08/24/13 03:06 PM

Quote:

Keep in mind the task isn't centering a star. The device isn't trying to do anything you do when aligning a mount. It is recognizing a Star field and the pointing vector for the system is recognized based on where stars appear to be across the entire detector. This is a much finer resolution than the image on a single pixel, or even looking at a group of pixels a star is on and computing a centroid on that one star.

-Rich

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

2) Again, how good can SS alignment can be at 40mm F2 (so only 80mm FL), considering Meade Starlock has 2 cameras and 2 different FL objectives, one being a 80mm F5 scope (400mm FL)?




I'd expect it to very good. At 80mm focal length the resolution will be measured in arcseconds; that's plenty good enough for star alignment. If Meade used a longer FL scope for their star location, that would have no bearing on Celestron's system - but Meade does not. The 400mm focal length unit is the guidescope. Location is done via the widefield scope - which looks to be around 80mm long. It works fine for Meade (I have one) and should be just as good for Celestron.




I stand corrected. According to the manual SS objective is only 20mm F2 =>40mm FL!

Now that's worse than a humble 80mm FL which already too short for high precision star centering.

I doubt that SS will be usefull for someone who knows how to align well its mount and for ASPA.

How can you be so sure that Meade isn't using the 400mm F5 scope for alignment too, besides guiding?







I tend to give you credit since I don't pretend I know how SS works.

We'll see in practice how usefull SS is.

For me SS would be interesting only if its pointing accuracy all over the sky is higher than what I obtain after using 2+4 alignment. Otherwise it's another expensive gimmick.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dragonslayer1
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/25/12

Loc: SLC, UT
Re: Celestron StarSense new [Re: Moromete]
      #6043806 - 08/24/13 03:22 PM

if it is able to align your mount at dusk with non and barely visible stars, where viewing space is limited, under adverse conditions,,,, I would not call that a gimmick... But the jury is still out on the workings of it in real time and conditions, so time will tell... and if it saves you some of that precious comodity (time) well, how much is that worth
Kasey


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Tiny
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 05/02/08

Re: Celestron StarSense new [Re: cn register 5]
      #6043822 - 08/24/13 03:35 PM

I bit. My backyard sky is pretty limited so alignments aren't always easy. I was contemplating a new right angle finder just to aid my neck in the awkward positions the CgemDX/C14 combo can slew to but opted for this instead so cost wise its really not an expensive accessory in my opinion.

Regarding availability, ordered from skies unlimited last night and they sent me an email this morning saying it would ship Monday.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
neilson
professor emeritus


Reged: 08/22/10

Re: Celestron StarSense new [Re: dragonslayer1]
      #6043831 - 08/24/13 03:43 PM

I also want to find out how accurate it is compared to a 2+4 alignment using something like a 9.25 SCT. I don't think it will have any problem being accurate with a 500mmFL refractor.
But I image with my 9.25 EdgeHD at 2350mm fl and I want to know how close to center my DSO's will be. They are pretty darn close using a 2+4 alignment on my CGE. I think it would be great if it's able to get just as close with the Starsense. I'm hoping it will be able do that without having to add any calibration reference points. If it's using 4 locations it just might do it.

Neilson


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Raginar
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 10/19/10

Loc: Rapid CIty, SD
Re: Celestron StarSense new [Re: neilson]
      #6043874 - 08/24/13 04:19 PM

Nelson, try plate solving.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: Celestron StarSense new [Re: neilson]
      #6043875 - 08/24/13 04:20 PM

If you put in a reticle and do a careful job on a 2+4, and include little details like making your last alignment movement in the up and to the right directions, the GOTO alignments I have gotten doing this are ostensibly perfect. I leave a 3mm eepiece in a telescope with an 820mm fcal length and find objects in the fov at the end of a GOTO slew. So, for something to do better than that is not really possible.

On the other hand, being able to tell the mount to get on with aligning itself while I am still getting set up, and the being able to tell me corret polar alignment, guidance is a massive improvement for being able to set up in the field and observing quickly.

I'm very interested in how people do with this.

-Rich

Edited by Starhawk (08/24/13 08:15 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
neilson
professor emeritus


Reged: 08/22/10

Re: Celestron StarSense new [Re: Starhawk]
      #6043963 - 08/24/13 05:19 PM

Rich
I'm not expecting it to do better than my 2+4 but I would like to see how close it can get. I think it will be just as good. As far as it aligning while I get set up, I'm usually already set up waiting for it to get dark enough to start. And I love gadgets, I'll be enjoying watching it do its thing. I enjoy watching my LX200R 10" do its automatic leveling dance. I have been waiting for someone to come up with an automatic alignment for a while. So I will definitely enjoy watching Starsense do its automated dance. I will like it no matter how accurate it is, and I'm keeping my hopes up it will perform outstanding. From what I understand the new hand-controller has some improvements that increase goto accuracy also.

Raginar
You have been telling me to try plate solving since last year I think. I really do intend to try it out, I just kept putting it off. This mount has been giving me really good goto's but the next day when I re setup my mount the DSO I was working on the day before ends up in a slightly different location. I have been working on trying to get my mounts alignment to come out the same each day. I was thinking the Starsense would probably give me the same alignment repeatedly the same each day since it's automated. And make my gotos put the object in the same place as the day before. But I will try it eventually.

Neilson


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: Celestron StarSense new [Re: neilson]
      #6044087 - 08/24/13 07:06 PM

The accuracy seems to me to be comparable to what I can get using a reticle EP with a careful alignment. This makes sense because once you get good align positions you are limited by the physics of the mount and that hasn't changed. The accuracy is independent of the scope because it isn't using the scope. I've been using an Oynx and a 6"RC.

Each align position has an error stated, typically this is about an arc minute. I don't know how this is calculated but I guess it's an average of the star positions used for the plate solve.

Once you get to that order of magnitude all sorts of additional errors become significant, for example periodic error will introduce an uncertainty in the position. This will be the same with a manual alignment of course.

It isn't magic. It isn't going to give you sub arc minute pointing over the whole sky. It will give you a good alignment without having to do it yourself.

One thing to bear in mind that it is early days with this and there will be updates. At present it just does alignments but a future enhancement could, for example, be a precise slew mode. The mount could slew to the position commanded, takes an image, plate solves it, and uses that data to refine the final slew.

I must stress that is hypothetical. There is no evidence that this will happen but it's a pretty obvious enhancement.

Did I mention the TeamCelestron site? http://teamcelestron.com
There's a public StarSense forum waiting for people to ask questions, report problems and so on. The developers will be monitoring it.

Chris


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Sorny
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/15/12

Loc: Southern MN
Re: Celestron StarSense new [Re: cn register 5]
      #6044106 - 08/24/13 07:21 PM

Quote:

The accuracy seems to me to be comparable to what I can get using a reticle EP with a careful alignment. This makes sense because once you get good align positions you are limited by the physics of the mount and that hasn't changed. The accuracy is independent of the scope because it isn't using the scope. I've been using an Oynx and a 6"RC.

Each align position has an error stated, typically this is about an arc minute. I don't know how this is calculated but I guess it's an average of the star positions used for the plate solve.

Once you get to that order of magnitude all sorts of additional errors become significant, for example periodic error will introduce an uncertainty in the position. This will be the same with a manual alignment of course.

It isn't magic. It isn't going to give you sub arc minute pointing over the whole sky. It will give you a good alignment without having to do it yourself.

One thing to bear in mind that it is early days with this and there will be updates. At present it just does alignments but a future enhancement could, for example, be a precise slew mode. The mount could slew to the position commanded, takes an image, plate solves it, and uses that data to refine the final slew.

I must stress that is hypothetical. There is no evidence that this will happen but it's a pretty obvious enhancement.

Did I mention the TeamCelestron site? http://teamcelestron.com
There's a public StarSense forum waiting for people to ask questions, report problems and so on. The developers will be monitoring it.

Chris




A precise slew mode like you mention is something that strikes me as a no-brainer to implement as long as there is sufficient memory. It was the first thing that popped into my head when I saw their announcement of the product at CES.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
wolfman_4_ever
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 07/15/11

Loc: El Segundo, Ca, So. Cal
Re: Celestron StarSense new [Re: Sorny]
      #6044111 - 08/24/13 07:27 PM

I had heard that precise goto plate solve is one of the items on top of the list for the next firmware upgrade enhancement for Star Sense.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: Celestron StarSense new [Re: wolfman_4_ever]
      #6044178 - 08/24/13 08:21 PM

It looks like a lot of good potential to me. I need to get the NexStar 8 GPS conversion to a trapeze done. I have everything but the dovetail clamping mechanism done- it's complicated by the need to get to it from behind since you can't reach the side, and I have made the mount an Over and Under with the idea my main configuration will be a C5 on top and a SkyWatcher Equinox 80ED on the bottom as a super mobile rig.

-Rich


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Sorny
professor emeritus


Reged: 03/15/12

Loc: Southern MN
Re: Celestron StarSense new [Re: Starhawk]
      #6044215 - 08/24/13 08:54 PM

According to the manual, NexStar GPS scopes aren't supported.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Moromete
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/15/12

Loc: Romania
Re: Celestron StarSense new [Re: Sorny]
      #6044562 - 08/25/13 01:48 AM

Will StarSense (as it is now software wise) be able to put a DSO near the middle of a DSLR frame with a C11 at F6 (1700mm FL)?


If yes than SS has my attention, otherwise I'm not interested in it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: Celestron StarSense new [Re: Moromete]
      #6044628 - 08/25/13 03:09 AM

Quote:

Will StarSense (as it is now software wise) be able to put a DSO near the middle of a DSLR frame with a C11 at F6 (1700mm FL)?



We can't tell because we don't know what you mean by "near the middle" but if you do the sums a typical DSLR has a field size of 20 by 14 arc minutes with that scope. The SS should easily get the object in that FOV and I'd expect it to be closer to the centre than an edge.

As I've said SS seems to do about as good a job as a careful manual alignment. If your careful manual alignments get objects close enough for you then I think the SS will as well.

Chris


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dragonslayer1
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/25/12

Loc: SLC, UT
Re: Celestron StarSense new [Re: cn register 5]
      #6044936 - 08/25/13 10:35 AM

Does it require electronic GPS input or can one put it in manually (if one does not have GPS on the mount)? If it can get a DSO/STAR target in the FOV without calibration stars of a VSS+ (comparable to a 8-10mm lens?) at about f5, hook me up
Kasey


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: Celestron StarSense [Re: dragonslayer1]
      #6044986 - 08/25/13 11:10 AM

It doesn't need GPS, I've never used one with my AVX and the SS, I've always just set my position.

I should take it up to my astro society observatory and try it with the CPC1100. The challenge will be getting the dome rotated so the SS can see out

Chris


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Starhawk
Space Ranger
*****

Reged: 09/16/08

Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Re: Celestron StarSense [Re: Sorny]
      #6045017 - 08/25/13 11:28 AM

Up to now anything compatible with a CPC worked on the NexStar GPS scopes. Now that's sad if star sense is the end of the line.

-Rich


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | >> (show all)


Extra information
26 registered and 29 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Dave M, richard7, bilgebay 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 58954

Jump to

CN Forums Home


Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics