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General Astronomy >> General Observing and Astronomy

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blb
Post Laureate


Reged: 11/25/05

Loc: Piedmont NC
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: JMW]
      #5644303 - 01/26/13 12:19 PM

Quote:

On a note, with DST nights are shorter to observe...




? They are? Are not the nights the same length irreguardless of what we set our clocks to. The only thing that changes the length of night time is the season of the year. Now that I am retired, I do not care which time they choose to use, I just wish they would keep the same time all year long. It does not mater if it is daylight savings time or standard time, just pick one and do it all year.


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Greyhaven
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 05/11/04

Loc: Greater downtown Maine
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: blb]
      #5644628 - 01/26/13 03:48 PM

Buddy
Retirement is wonderful, I worked a job that used a 12.5 hr. work day and rotated between day and night shift 6 times over a 4week period. I sure they worked that schedule to making it rarely possible for the younger workers to be able to survive to retirement age and benefits. What a pleasure it is to be available to take a look at the sky day or night with only the weather gods to worry about.It surely made this hobby a whole new experience for me.Shorter hours of day light are far better than longer nights of clouds and temps of -10 and clear sky, as I'm dealing with now. As far as DST I don't care which they use I just wish they would choose 1 and stick to it.
Be Well
Grey


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CollinofAlabama
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 11/24/03

Loc: Lubbock, Texas, USA
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: SkipW]
      #5644917 - 01/26/13 06:58 PM

Quote:

That's because the vast majority of people like it.




This is, sadly, quite true. Although we astronomers, especially those of us not retired, generally do not like it, I work with a guy whose kids are baseball players. They love it; and I am certain their average game draws far more people, with rare eclipse, occultation, or historic Mars opposition exceptions, than our clubs star parties. They're not brainwashed, they just don't have the fire in their belly for the night sky and prefer sports or other outdoor endeavors that are enhanced by more sunlight in the evenings.

This puts us, pure and simple, in the minority. Look, folks, if I thought we could vote our way out of the whole DST mess, I'd be all for petitions demanding so, but I'm afraid we'd be solidly trounced at the polls. More people prefer DST than despise it like us.

Still, personally, I'd be for a 30 minute year-long, national shift forward (at this writing in January) for the sake of getting more time in the Summer, while altogether doing away with the national disrupt your cycadian rhythm DST makes everyone suffer thru for 2 weeks. Just silly this spring forward fall back nonsense. GMT-0:30 across all time zones -- forever. We astronomers would ultimately benefit, cause more of the year would be screwed up less (even tho the winter would be screwed up slightly more). But I'm afraid this plague upon our house clocks is here to stay. Might as well make the best of our bad situation, and GMT-0:30 is it. Arizona would be upset, but everyone else would be spared a lot of pointless sleep interruption.


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Photobud
super member


Reged: 01/07/13

Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: CollinofAlabama]
      #5644933 - 01/26/13 07:10 PM

And the sun will never cross the meridian at noon!

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Asbytec
Guy in a furry hat
*****

Reged: 08/08/07

Loc: La Union, PI
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: REC]
      #5644951 - 01/26/13 07:20 PM

Quote:

Who started this thing anyway, they don't have it anywhere else on the globe do they?




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84aWtseb2-4


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CollinofAlabama
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 11/24/03

Loc: Lubbock, Texas, USA
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5645137 - 01/26/13 09:09 PM

Norme,

Excellent YouTube video. Of course, this makes my call for a national, across the board GMT-0:30 all the more appealing. Quite frankly, if we did it, I suspect the rest of the civilized world would follow suite. Why would their citizens not be worth removing the productivity-losing, sleep disruptive folly of revolving DST times?

GMT-1 wouldn't work because kids would, in the Winter, literally go to school in the dark. Plenty would be going in early dawn light at -0:30, but it wouldn't be pitch black, whereas, all the country would enjoy not having the time change silliness. The other countries would follow suite, and the coordination of meetings lamented about in the video would certainly end for the USA, and soon end for most everyone else. Oh well, a fellow can dream (or at least be groggy at work!)


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michalh
member


Reged: 11/30/09

Loc: Midwest, USA
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: Photobud]
      #5645194 - 01/26/13 10:08 PM

Quote:

And the sun will never cross the meridian at noon!




I'm reading this thread with some amusement. Here in Indiana we just began "celebrating" DST. Even worse, when they chose which time zone we'd follow, they chose eastern. The sun crossed the meridian at my home at 1:03PM today; this summer it will be more like 2PM. Incredible how disconnected we've become from natural time.


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panhardModerator
It's All Good
*****

Reged: 01/20/08

Loc: Markham Ontario Canada
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: michalh]
      #5645264 - 01/26/13 11:12 PM

Quote:

I wish they would either have it year around, or not at all.


I vote for not at all.

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SkipW
sage


Reged: 02/03/11

Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5645317 - 01/27/13 12:11 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Who started this thing anyway, they don't have it anywhere else on the globe do they?




[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84aWtseb2- 4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84aWtseb2-4[/url]



In the spirit of full disclosure, I like DST and don't think it should be in effect year-round. In my opinion, the latest change puts the change "to" too early and "from" too late, but I live pretty far west in my time zone, so the effect here is worse than in most places. I've liked Astronomy all my life but have other interests as well. I enjoy the extra evening daylight for them but don't like routinely going to work while it's still dark (like probably most other people). It's always interesting to watch the webosphere go ballistic when we change to and from DST, though.

The video makes some good points, but got the reason we do this in the summer and not in the winter completely wrong. It's not in the summer "because the weather's nice", it's in the summer because the sun rises earlier and most people in the temperate regions are sleeping through more than an hour of perfectly good daylight. Hawaii doesn't observe DST because they're close enough to the equator that the length of daylight doesn't change enough to make it worthwhile (similarly for Northern Brazil - that makes perfect sense), not "because the weather's nice all year".

Almost everyone who enjoys outdoor activities (or at least deals with them like parents with kids in organized sports) loves DST. Except astronomers, farmers, and maybe outdoor movie aficionados.

But, please, please, please, don't suggest :30 time zones. Have you ever been in one?


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Patrick
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/16/03

Loc: Franklin, Ohio
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: REC]
      #5645337 - 01/27/13 12:43 AM

Quote:

Looking out the window and at 6pm. and it's still light out! A month ago I was out observing at this time....oh well still better at 7pm then when when daylight savings time comes in early March!




Even though I love to observe, I hate it getting dark before I get home from work. It's depressing, especially considering that here in Ohio it's usually dark and cloudy too, not to mention cold. I'd much prefer warmer weather with a little later sunset any day. I think that's why I like spring and fall the best.

Patrick


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Tonk
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 08/19/04

Loc: Leeds, UK, 54N
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: JMW]
      #5645519 - 01/27/13 05:58 AM

Quote:

they don't have it anywhere else on the globe do they?




Oh yes - its common in many countries

Invented in New Zealand by George Vernon Hudson - so he could go collecting insects after work!!! (this is true!)
Here is the proceedings after he read the original paper (1895) were he proposed the system - except he wanted a 2 hour shift

http://rsnz.natlib.govt.nz/volume/rsnz_28/rsnz_28_00_006110.pdf

It was eventually adopted during WWI - to save artificial lighting resources. Good idea really - when awake use the sun for lighting - hum who would of thought of that

Quote:

I wish they would either have it year around, or not at all.




Back in the late 60's/early 70's the UK experimented with fixed DST all year for a short while. However the Scottish farming lobby eventaully killed it off and all subsequent attempts to try again (to better sync with France etc). Now if Scotland eventaully cede from the UK we might get a fixed all year time in the UK


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CollinofAlabama
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 11/24/03

Loc: Lubbock, Texas, USA
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: SkipW]
      #5647221 - 01/28/13 12:10 AM

SkipW,

Yes, I have been in one. I went to New Delhi from Thanksgiving to Xmas, 2010. India's got LOTS of issues (mostly early English Industrial types of poor air and public water), and they have an insane time system, one time zone across a country, east to west, about the distance of the 48 states. Still, Delhi's close enough to their theoretical 'center', that it was fine.

I agree GMT-0:30 sounds counter intuitive, but when you consider the considerable power the USA has influencing other nations, IMHO, if we did it, other nations would follow suite. Look, people have accepted GMT-1:00 since the beginning of GMT, what would be wrong with a permanent GMT-0:30 ultimately the world over? Getting rid of the sleep disruption would be a boon, economically, safety-wise, and for health puposes. By shifting to -:30, no one would ever have to change clocks again, and people get some of what they want (more afternoon light in the summer) without undully jeopardizing kids' safety in the Winter. And if the whole world ends up shifting accordingly, who'd care?


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SkipW
sage


Reged: 02/03/11

Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: CollinofAlabama]
      #5649290 - 01/28/13 09:21 PM

I suppose it's a matter of getting used to it, and most people can get used to anything (except, apparently, DST ), but the time I spent in Adelaide, South Australia, which for some reason is on a half hour, we were constantly confused about what time it was elsewhere - and I'm usually really good at that. I was going to not bother resetting my watch, but got tired of trying to figure out what time it was there. I never understood the reasoning behind those half-hour time zones and after experiencing one was convinced they're the work of the devil and should be banished by international law.

In my work we send teams to various parts of the world, including across the Date Line occasionally, and to Hawaii frequently. A lot of our coordination is done in UTC, but we've all gotten good at the shifting 1-hour deltas working between the mainland and Hawaii. The thought of widespread, but not universal, :30s sends chills up my spine, though. Ugh! Here's a compromise: keep the integer-hour time zones we (mostly) have now and shift GMT forward by half an hour.

Just say NO! to half-hour time zones.

Edited by SkipW (01/28/13 11:09 PM)


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Perigny270
super member


Reged: 10/23/11

Loc: Temiscaming, Quebec
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: SkipW]
      #5649343 - 01/28/13 09:59 PM

Please no 30 minute zones. Newfoundland has it (GMT-3.5hr). It's charming, but what a pain when travelling. Everything from the mainland is off by a half-hour. Most (but not all) things are a half hour later.
I agree with SkipW on all his other points too.
Personally I would just like to get rid of the twice-a-year time shift. What a mess for all our real-time information systems. That funny gap and overlap each spring and fall.
Lastly, once retired who cares? When on holidays the sun is my clock.


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Tony Flanders
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/18/06

Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: CollinofAlabama]
      #5649740 - 01/29/13 06:22 AM

Quote:

India ... has an insane time system, one time zone across a country, east to west, about the distance of the 48 states.




It's not as bad as it sounds. First of all, although India is a vast country it extends farther north-south than east-west. And of course time zones are much wider near the equator than they are at northerly latitudes. And with everybody asleep at midday, your sense of time is very different anyway. As Hindus would say, time is an illusion ...

The upshot is that I barely notice the time change flying from Calcutta to Bombay.

China, by contrast, really is insane, with a single time zone stretching across what ought to be four or five.

However, the half hour in India is definitely confusing. Just last week I bolluxed a Skype call to a friend in India because adding or subtracting 10.5 is so challenging.


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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #5649896 - 01/29/13 09:14 AM

Does anybody really know what time it is...
Does anybody really care
....about time;
If so, I can't imagine why----Chicago


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JoeR
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 03/07/10

Loc: Columbus, OH
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5653691 - 01/31/13 06:49 AM

What early dark skies? We had ZERO clear nights for the entire month! February's forecast looks equally as bad! This is looking to be the worst winter we had here in years.

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