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General Astronomy >> General Observing and Astronomy

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REC
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Reged: 10/20/10

Loc: NC
Bye early dark skies:(
      #5639336 - 01/23/13 06:08 PM

Looking out the window and at 6pm. and it's still light out! A month ago I was out observing at this time....oh well still better at 7pm then when when daylight savings time comes in early March!

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csa/montana
Den Mama
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Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: REC]
      #5639469 - 01/23/13 07:39 PM

Quote:

daylight savings time




Thanks for spoiling my day!


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JayinUT
I'm not Sleepy
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Reged: 09/19/08

Loc: Utah
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5639489 - 01/23/13 07:54 PM

Yes, Sunday March 10th will suck! Especially since the weather this winter hasn't allowed me to be out at all!

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csrlice12
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Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: JayinUT]
      #5639554 - 01/23/13 08:52 PM

Think of all the wear and tear we've saved our scopes!

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garyp1936
sage
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Reged: 06/30/10

Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5639681 - 01/23/13 10:33 PM

Just one more advantage for Arizona which doesn't switch to DST

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Ed D
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Reged: 04/30/10

Loc: Sunny South Florida
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: garyp1936]
      #5640038 - 01/24/13 05:40 AM

DST doesn't bother me one bit. The lack of sleep does!

Ed D


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csrlice12
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Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: Ed D]
      #5640230 - 01/24/13 09:12 AM

It'll be back to "Weekend Observatory" time again.....think we had one or two of those total last year........

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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5640262 - 01/24/13 09:33 AM

Quote:

Quote:

daylight savings time




Thanks for spoiling my day!




The older I get, the less I like DST. It's great for cycling home the long way after work. 15 years ago I would sometimes turn the 12 mile ride home into a 40 or 50 mile ride but these days, just riding at all represents a victory.

It seems like it takes a couple of weeks to adjust to DST... And for you folks up north... Summer observing might not get started until near midnight.

Jon


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csa/montana
Den Mama
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Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5640363 - 01/24/13 10:33 AM

Quote:

Summer observing might not get started until near midnight.





That's true Jon; makes for a very long day, or very short nights of sleep. Plus it starts breaking daylight around 4am.


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NeilMac
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/25/10

Loc: MedHat, AB, Canada
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5640517 - 01/24/13 11:53 AM

I noticed today that its become lighter, Eeek, the winter nights are speeding by with barely any nights I get to take advantage of the early dark skies, sobb.

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GeneT
Ely Kid
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Reged: 11/07/08

Loc: South Texas
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: REC]
      #5641040 - 01/24/13 04:47 PM

Why can't we vote on DST? I hate it. The summer nights get progressively longer as we move from Spring into Summer. We don't need it! By the time you wait for twilight to fade into truly black skies, it is getting late, and pushing into the early morning after just a few hours of viewing.

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Tony Flanders
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Reged: 05/18/06

Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: REC]
      #5641089 - 01/24/13 05:16 PM

Quote:

Looking out the window and at 6pm. and it's still light out!




Hey, count your blessings. As long as I can start observing shortly after supper, I'm happy. And that will remain true well into February.

In fact, I'm delighted to be able to bicycle home without using a headlight at 5 p.m.

As for daylight-saving time: Yes, it's a pain. But the real pain is the fact that the nights get so short, which is totally beyond human control.

I always dread April and May, when the nights get really short and the biting insects come out in force. What a combo!


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REC
Post Laureate
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Reged: 10/20/10

Loc: NC
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #5641096 - 01/24/13 05:22 PM

They should start DST April 1st. and end it Oct.1st. it is way too long! Who started this thing anyway, they don't have it anywhere else on the globe do they?

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csrlice12
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Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: REC]
      #5642090 - 01/25/13 08:31 AM

At the North Pole (spent a year there with the military), we just split it evenly between daylight 24/7 for a couple of months in the summer, and total darkness 24/7 for a couple of months in the winter (don't it figure, the best viewing time is also the worst weather time) ..... I never saw skies so dark in my life....probably never will again either....and believe it or not, nobody had a scope.....

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JayinUT
I'm not Sleepy
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Reged: 09/19/08

Loc: Utah
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5642153 - 01/25/13 09:14 AM

We did vote on having DST. In the Energy Policy Act of 2005 the House and Senate passed the bill that President Bush signed into law on the notion that DST saves 1% of energy for the USA for each day of DST. We voted or should have voted our representatives and our Senators so thus we voted to extend DST. Now it would take people contacting them with a logical argument on why it shouldn't be in place. That or hope your state will take action and get rid of it.

On a note, with DST nights are shorter to observe but fortunately for me unless I go in the mountains after June 1st near water I don't have to fight the bugs too much. A benefit of mostly observing in the desert and high mountains away from water sources.

Edited by JayinUT (01/25/13 09:16 AM)


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Tony Flanders
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Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: REC]
      #5642266 - 01/25/13 10:18 AM

Quote:

Who started this thing anyway, they don't have it anywhere else on the globe do they?




As is so often the case, Wikipedia has an excellent article on the subject. Yes, as those of us with friends and relatives in Canada and Europe are well aware, daylight-saving time is the norm for countries in the temperate zones.

It's intriguing that in daylight-saving time is usually grossly asymmetric with respect to the length of the day. In the U.S. it starts just two weeks before the March equinox but continues six or seven weeks after the September equinox.


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SkipW
sage


Reged: 02/03/11

Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #5643217 - 01/25/13 07:35 PM

That's because the vast majority of people like it.

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NeilMac
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/25/10

Loc: MedHat, AB, Canada
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: SkipW]
      #5644126 - 01/26/13 10:35 AM

Quote:

That's because the vast majority of people like it.



Thats because the majority are brainwashed


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csa/montana
Den Mama
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Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: SkipW]
      #5644135 - 01/26/13 10:39 AM

Quote:

That's because the vast majority of people like it.




Not the case here; however, no matter how many oppose it, DST will remain. It wasn't quite as bad, until they lengthened the period of it! It's much too long now. I wish they would either have it year around, or not at all.


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JMW
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/11/07

Loc: Nevada
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5644250 - 01/26/13 11:42 AM

I just spent 4 nights in Death Valley. I was able to do public outreach astronomy at about 6PM until 9PM under a quarter moon. I then took a 5 hour nap and did a 2nd 2 hour moonless session after the whole campground was asleep. It's much too far away but I would love to go to the WSP in the keys. It would be lovely to have so many dark hours at a star party.

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blb
Post Laureate


Reged: 11/25/05

Loc: Piedmont NC
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: JMW]
      #5644303 - 01/26/13 12:19 PM

Quote:

On a note, with DST nights are shorter to observe...




? They are? Are not the nights the same length irreguardless of what we set our clocks to. The only thing that changes the length of night time is the season of the year. Now that I am retired, I do not care which time they choose to use, I just wish they would keep the same time all year long. It does not mater if it is daylight savings time or standard time, just pick one and do it all year.


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Greyhaven
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 05/11/04

Loc: Greater downtown Maine
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: blb]
      #5644628 - 01/26/13 03:48 PM

Buddy
Retirement is wonderful, I worked a job that used a 12.5 hr. work day and rotated between day and night shift 6 times over a 4week period. I sure they worked that schedule to making it rarely possible for the younger workers to be able to survive to retirement age and benefits. What a pleasure it is to be available to take a look at the sky day or night with only the weather gods to worry about.It surely made this hobby a whole new experience for me.Shorter hours of day light are far better than longer nights of clouds and temps of -10 and clear sky, as I'm dealing with now. As far as DST I don't care which they use I just wish they would choose 1 and stick to it.
Be Well
Grey


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CollinofAlabama
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 11/24/03

Loc: Lubbock, Texas, USA
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: SkipW]
      #5644917 - 01/26/13 06:58 PM

Quote:

That's because the vast majority of people like it.




This is, sadly, quite true. Although we astronomers, especially those of us not retired, generally do not like it, I work with a guy whose kids are baseball players. They love it; and I am certain their average game draws far more people, with rare eclipse, occultation, or historic Mars opposition exceptions, than our clubs star parties. They're not brainwashed, they just don't have the fire in their belly for the night sky and prefer sports or other outdoor endeavors that are enhanced by more sunlight in the evenings.

This puts us, pure and simple, in the minority. Look, folks, if I thought we could vote our way out of the whole DST mess, I'd be all for petitions demanding so, but I'm afraid we'd be solidly trounced at the polls. More people prefer DST than despise it like us.

Still, personally, I'd be for a 30 minute year-long, national shift forward (at this writing in January) for the sake of getting more time in the Summer, while altogether doing away with the national disrupt your cycadian rhythm DST makes everyone suffer thru for 2 weeks. Just silly this spring forward fall back nonsense. GMT-0:30 across all time zones -- forever. We astronomers would ultimately benefit, cause more of the year would be screwed up less (even tho the winter would be screwed up slightly more). But I'm afraid this plague upon our house clocks is here to stay. Might as well make the best of our bad situation, and GMT-0:30 is it. Arizona would be upset, but everyone else would be spared a lot of pointless sleep interruption.


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Photobud
super member


Reged: 01/07/13

Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: CollinofAlabama]
      #5644933 - 01/26/13 07:10 PM

And the sun will never cross the meridian at noon!

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Asbytec
Guy in a furry hat
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Reged: 08/08/07

Loc: La Union, PI
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: REC]
      #5644951 - 01/26/13 07:20 PM

Quote:

Who started this thing anyway, they don't have it anywhere else on the globe do they?




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84aWtseb2-4


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CollinofAlabama
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 11/24/03

Loc: Lubbock, Texas, USA
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5645137 - 01/26/13 09:09 PM

Norme,

Excellent YouTube video. Of course, this makes my call for a national, across the board GMT-0:30 all the more appealing. Quite frankly, if we did it, I suspect the rest of the civilized world would follow suite. Why would their citizens not be worth removing the productivity-losing, sleep disruptive folly of revolving DST times?

GMT-1 wouldn't work because kids would, in the Winter, literally go to school in the dark. Plenty would be going in early dawn light at -0:30, but it wouldn't be pitch black, whereas, all the country would enjoy not having the time change silliness. The other countries would follow suite, and the coordination of meetings lamented about in the video would certainly end for the USA, and soon end for most everyone else. Oh well, a fellow can dream (or at least be groggy at work!)


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michalh
member


Reged: 11/30/09

Loc: Midwest, USA
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: Photobud]
      #5645194 - 01/26/13 10:08 PM

Quote:

And the sun will never cross the meridian at noon!




I'm reading this thread with some amusement. Here in Indiana we just began "celebrating" DST. Even worse, when they chose which time zone we'd follow, they chose eastern. The sun crossed the meridian at my home at 1:03PM today; this summer it will be more like 2PM. Incredible how disconnected we've become from natural time.


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panhardModerator
It's All Good
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Reged: 01/20/08

Loc: Markham Ontario Canada
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: michalh]
      #5645264 - 01/26/13 11:12 PM

Quote:

I wish they would either have it year around, or not at all.


I vote for not at all.

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SkipW
sage


Reged: 02/03/11

Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: Asbytec]
      #5645317 - 01/27/13 12:11 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Who started this thing anyway, they don't have it anywhere else on the globe do they?




[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84aWtseb2- 4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84aWtseb2-4[/url]



In the spirit of full disclosure, I like DST and don't think it should be in effect year-round. In my opinion, the latest change puts the change "to" too early and "from" too late, but I live pretty far west in my time zone, so the effect here is worse than in most places. I've liked Astronomy all my life but have other interests as well. I enjoy the extra evening daylight for them but don't like routinely going to work while it's still dark (like probably most other people). It's always interesting to watch the webosphere go ballistic when we change to and from DST, though.

The video makes some good points, but got the reason we do this in the summer and not in the winter completely wrong. It's not in the summer "because the weather's nice", it's in the summer because the sun rises earlier and most people in the temperate regions are sleeping through more than an hour of perfectly good daylight. Hawaii doesn't observe DST because they're close enough to the equator that the length of daylight doesn't change enough to make it worthwhile (similarly for Northern Brazil - that makes perfect sense), not "because the weather's nice all year".

Almost everyone who enjoys outdoor activities (or at least deals with them like parents with kids in organized sports) loves DST. Except astronomers, farmers, and maybe outdoor movie aficionados.

But, please, please, please, don't suggest :30 time zones. Have you ever been in one?


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Patrick
Postmaster
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Loc: Franklin, Ohio
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: REC]
      #5645337 - 01/27/13 12:43 AM

Quote:

Looking out the window and at 6pm. and it's still light out! A month ago I was out observing at this time....oh well still better at 7pm then when when daylight savings time comes in early March!




Even though I love to observe, I hate it getting dark before I get home from work. It's depressing, especially considering that here in Ohio it's usually dark and cloudy too, not to mention cold. I'd much prefer warmer weather with a little later sunset any day. I think that's why I like spring and fall the best.

Patrick


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Tonk
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Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: JMW]
      #5645519 - 01/27/13 05:58 AM

Quote:

they don't have it anywhere else on the globe do they?




Oh yes - its common in many countries

Invented in New Zealand by George Vernon Hudson - so he could go collecting insects after work!!! (this is true!)
Here is the proceedings after he read the original paper (1895) were he proposed the system - except he wanted a 2 hour shift

http://rsnz.natlib.govt.nz/volume/rsnz_28/rsnz_28_00_006110.pdf

It was eventually adopted during WWI - to save artificial lighting resources. Good idea really - when awake use the sun for lighting - hum who would of thought of that

Quote:

I wish they would either have it year around, or not at all.




Back in the late 60's/early 70's the UK experimented with fixed DST all year for a short while. However the Scottish farming lobby eventaully killed it off and all subsequent attempts to try again (to better sync with France etc). Now if Scotland eventaully cede from the UK we might get a fixed all year time in the UK


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CollinofAlabama
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 11/24/03

Loc: Lubbock, Texas, USA
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: SkipW]
      #5647221 - 01/28/13 12:10 AM

SkipW,

Yes, I have been in one. I went to New Delhi from Thanksgiving to Xmas, 2010. India's got LOTS of issues (mostly early English Industrial types of poor air and public water), and they have an insane time system, one time zone across a country, east to west, about the distance of the 48 states. Still, Delhi's close enough to their theoretical 'center', that it was fine.

I agree GMT-0:30 sounds counter intuitive, but when you consider the considerable power the USA has influencing other nations, IMHO, if we did it, other nations would follow suite. Look, people have accepted GMT-1:00 since the beginning of GMT, what would be wrong with a permanent GMT-0:30 ultimately the world over? Getting rid of the sleep disruption would be a boon, economically, safety-wise, and for health puposes. By shifting to -:30, no one would ever have to change clocks again, and people get some of what they want (more afternoon light in the summer) without undully jeopardizing kids' safety in the Winter. And if the whole world ends up shifting accordingly, who'd care?


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SkipW
sage


Reged: 02/03/11

Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: CollinofAlabama]
      #5649290 - 01/28/13 09:21 PM

I suppose it's a matter of getting used to it, and most people can get used to anything (except, apparently, DST ), but the time I spent in Adelaide, South Australia, which for some reason is on a half hour, we were constantly confused about what time it was elsewhere - and I'm usually really good at that. I was going to not bother resetting my watch, but got tired of trying to figure out what time it was there. I never understood the reasoning behind those half-hour time zones and after experiencing one was convinced they're the work of the devil and should be banished by international law.

In my work we send teams to various parts of the world, including across the Date Line occasionally, and to Hawaii frequently. A lot of our coordination is done in UTC, but we've all gotten good at the shifting 1-hour deltas working between the mainland and Hawaii. The thought of widespread, but not universal, :30s sends chills up my spine, though. Ugh! Here's a compromise: keep the integer-hour time zones we (mostly) have now and shift GMT forward by half an hour.

Just say NO! to half-hour time zones.

Edited by SkipW (01/28/13 11:09 PM)


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Perigny270
super member


Reged: 10/23/11

Loc: Temiscaming, Quebec
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: SkipW]
      #5649343 - 01/28/13 09:59 PM

Please no 30 minute zones. Newfoundland has it (GMT-3.5hr). It's charming, but what a pain when travelling. Everything from the mainland is off by a half-hour. Most (but not all) things are a half hour later.
I agree with SkipW on all his other points too.
Personally I would just like to get rid of the twice-a-year time shift. What a mess for all our real-time information systems. That funny gap and overlap each spring and fall.
Lastly, once retired who cares? When on holidays the sun is my clock.


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Tony Flanders
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Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: CollinofAlabama]
      #5649740 - 01/29/13 06:22 AM

Quote:

India ... has an insane time system, one time zone across a country, east to west, about the distance of the 48 states.




It's not as bad as it sounds. First of all, although India is a vast country it extends farther north-south than east-west. And of course time zones are much wider near the equator than they are at northerly latitudes. And with everybody asleep at midday, your sense of time is very different anyway. As Hindus would say, time is an illusion ...

The upshot is that I barely notice the time change flying from Calcutta to Bombay.

China, by contrast, really is insane, with a single time zone stretching across what ought to be four or five.

However, the half hour in India is definitely confusing. Just last week I bolluxed a Skype call to a friend in India because adding or subtracting 10.5 is so challenging.


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csrlice12
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #5649896 - 01/29/13 09:14 AM

Does anybody really know what time it is...
Does anybody really care
....about time;
If so, I can't imagine why----Chicago


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JoeR
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 03/07/10

Loc: Columbus, OH
Re: Bye early dark skies:( new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5653691 - 01/31/13 06:49 AM

What early dark skies? We had ZERO clear nights for the entire month! February's forecast looks equally as bad! This is looking to be the worst winter we had here in years.

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