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Astrojensen
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective.
      #5642797 - 01/25/13 03:25 PM

In the recent thread about the troubles at Meade, the aging astro community and a bleak future with fewer manufacturers and smaller variety has been mentioned again and again.

I was wondering if this is purely a US-centric phenomenon, as it describes a situation I can't recognize over here in Europe. I've been a member of the biggest Danish astro forum for no more than a few years and only attended star parties since 2007, but during that time, I've seen quite a few young observers at the parties and also a number has joined the forum. Furthermore, European astronomy dealers seem to do better than ever, if I am to believe what I see on their webshops and at ATT.

Today I was contacted by a young journalist lady from a local TV station, who wanted me to participate in a series of nature programs they're running. There's not so much going on in nature by now, in the middle of winter, so she thought that maybe they could run an episode or two about the stars. During our talk, she mentioned a bird-watching trip to Sweden they had organized, just for kids. Apparently there had been LOTS of kids on that trip, with binoculars and spottingscopes. They had also observed the Moon with the spottingscopes and had had a blast out of it. She thought that astronomy definitely was a "sleeper interest" in many kids. It had that mystery aura that appeals to kids. Also, a lot of kids watched their nature program, she told me. And adults too, of course.

So, apparently, or so I thought, it's not the kids that lack an interest in astronomy or that they perceive astronomy as boring and dusty, if it can be presented in a interesting and thought-provoking and aestetic way, but us that fail to let them know that it is possible to observe the universe with their own eyes and how to do it.

I think we should get astronomy into prime time TV and schools. Then the problems with recruitment to our hobby will solve themselves and we can soon wade in cheap equipment!

No, seriously, I don't think kids see astronomy as boring (I never did. I read astronomy textbooks since I was eight or something. I was an armchair astronomer before I got my first binoculars at age twelve...!), but rather that MANY ADULTS DO and thus think that kids find it boring, too.

A kids show about science and astronomy could, I assume, if presented the right way, have a profound impact.

Who knows, perhaps it could save Meade...


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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starrancher
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 06/09/09

Loc: Northern Arizona
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5642835 - 01/25/13 03:41 PM

Sadly in this country , the average youth is probably more absorbed by looking over his shoulder and trying to stay alive .
The school system here can't even think about adding a program as with all US bureaucracy it has over spent , is broke and can only cut cut cut .
As far as our televised media goes , shows like "Keeping up with the Kardashians" or "Love and Hip Hop Antlanta" is more along the lines of what we see . It's all part of being dummied down . A sad state of affairs . I believe hiring in of minds from China and India was referenced in the Meade thread .
Huh , I wonder why ?


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Mxplx2
sage


Reged: 09/12/12

Loc: NE PA USA
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5642916 - 01/25/13 04:22 PM

When I was a kid we had a TV show called Mr. Wizard on Saturdays. He did all kinds of interesting scientific things and it was must see TV for me every Saturday. Today, Saturdays are all cartoons and sugary cereal commercials. First they rot their minds and then they rot their teeth.

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Footbag
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Reged: 04/13/09

Loc: Scranton, PA
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: starrancher]
      #5642959 - 01/25/13 04:43 PM

A few comments...

First, I come across a lot of people who watch Discovery Channel, Science Channel, etc for the astronomy programs. These aren't astronomers, they don't have telescopes, but they are just as fascinated with astronomy as I am. There is no lack of interest. I do wonder why Celestron or Meade aren't advertising on these shows. I think the market is ripe to find a new wave of interested customers, but they cannot find them in the pool of old customers. They need to create the interest, not just cater to it. Unfortunately, they're not gaining many customers with S&T.

As far as schools, every science classroom in the country should have a telescope. I never looked through a telescope until I bought one. There were numerous times I though about buying one, but never got around to it earlier in my life. I do intend to ensure that my son's school has access to a telescope even if I have to buy it for them.

I will relate a few more things to demonstrate. I was doing some astrophotography at my lakehouse. A lot of people tend to walk by, and I'm usually nose deep in my laptop. I would say that 90% of the people ask about my telescope. They want to see my pictures. They want to bring their other back over to see them. This is not one in ten, this is nine out of ten.

As well, our club does outreach at our city's First Friday celebration. It is typically the bar aged crowd, but we've made some inroads with the younger kids. Everyone wants to look through the telescope. It doesn't matter what their background is, they are interested.

So I refuse to believe that there is some societal rejection of astronomy, on the contrary, I believe that it may just be the hobby's inability or unwillingness to target new groups.


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Footbag
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Reged: 04/13/09

Loc: Scranton, PA
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Mxplx2]
      #5642962 - 01/25/13 04:46 PM

Quote:

When I was a kid we had a TV show called Mr. Wizard on Saturdays. He did all kinds of interesting scientific things and it was must see TV for me every Saturday. Today, Saturdays are all cartoons and sugary cereal commercials. First they rot their minds and then they rot their teeth.




I forgot about Mr. Wizard. That was an excellent show.

I thought this was a great thread topic. Let's try not to get it locked.

Edited by Footbag (01/25/13 04:49 PM)


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Astrojensen
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Loc: Bornholm, Denmark
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Footbag]
      #5642985 - 01/25/13 05:04 PM

Thank you Adam, for your kind comments and interesting replies.

I am afraid that I haven't been the most outspoken and active outreach astronomer myself, but I find it a little hard to do it alone with a crowd. A few people is fine, but I haven't found the guts to set up my scope in town and let everyone who passes by have a look. It would be easier if I knew a few other astronomers who also wanted to do this, but I don't. At least none here on the island where I live. I hope I can make up for it with the TV program. Let's see.

I also find it difficult to persuade the weather to be even a little bit cooperative. It's extremely hard to plan anything around here.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Jon Isaacs
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5643163 - 01/25/13 06:58 PM Attachment (33 downloads)

Quote:


I was wondering if this is purely a US-centric phenomenon, as it describes a situation I can't recognize over here in Europe. I've been a member of the biggest Danish astro forum for no more than a few years and only attended star parties since 2007, but during that time, I've seen quite a few young observers at the parties and also a number has joined the forum.




I suspect it's more of a perception than a reality... It all depends on who you hang out with...

Jon


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GeneT
Ely Kid
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Reged: 11/07/08

Loc: South Texas
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: starrancher]
      #5643207 - 01/25/13 07:26 PM

Quote:

Sadly in this country , the average youth is probably more absorbed by looking over his shoulder and trying to stay alive .
The school system here can't even think about adding a program as with all US bureaucracy it has over spent , is broke and can only cut cut cut .
As far as our televised media goes , shows like "Keeping up with the Kardashians" or "Love and Hip Hop Antlanta" is more along the lines of what we see . It's all part of being dummied down . A sad state of affairs . I believe hiring in of minds from China and India was referenced in the Meade thread .
Huh , I wonder why ?




Well said!


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core
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 02/23/08

Loc: Mostly in Norman, OK
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5643755 - 01/26/13 03:18 AM Attachment (52 downloads)

Here's another picture to add to that beacon of hope - for the past couple of years at Okie-Tex star party, the city of Norman's (same city where astronomics is located) High School's astronomy program brings up to about 30 students (equally split male/female from what I gather) to the star party - in this case it takes dedicated teacher(s) in the school system to not only setup the astronomy course, but conduct hands-on observation sessions for the students throughout the semester - they have weekday 1hr night observation sessions locally, monthly outings to the local OKC club's dark-sky site, and this yearly trip to okie-tex.

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JayinUT
I'm not Sleepy
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Reged: 09/19/08

Loc: Utah
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: core]
      #5643886 - 01/26/13 07:34 AM

I am not sure that 30 students out of several high schools is hopeful. If these are typical high schools of 1000 to 2000 students. For five years I ran an astronomy program for grades 6-12. I had what I considered good turnouts of about 30 students who came and learned about the science of Astronomy via inquiry based lessons and hand on experiments. We also taught the kids how to observe using 8 to 10 inch dobs. I turned the program over to another teacher.

So do I think the future is hopeful? I don't think the hobby will die, but it is going to change. The days of pure visual observing are slowly fading as technology brings in new aspects of doing the hobby. If prices can be lowered the hobby will continue to move to imaging as light pollution continues to grow with the population. That means higher costs to get to dark sites or on outlays of equipment. That will mean income is needed and most adults starting out in life do not have the extra income. In the end it's just a guess and time will tell.


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BlueGrass
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Reged: 07/25/09

Loc: Wasatch Front, UT
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: JayinUT]
      #5643977 - 01/26/13 08:54 AM

One change I constantly see in our society is an increasing demand for everything to be faster and this goes to the statements about long term astronomy interests requiring patience. It does seem that everyone wants instant gratification and if they don't get it, they complain and move on. How many of us have heard the radio commercials where the conditions and terms for a particular ad are fast forwarded at the end? Drives me crazy. The attention span for many, sadly, is becoming shorter and shorter...

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astro_baby
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 06/17/08

Loc: United Kingdom
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: JayinUT]
      #5643982 - 01/26/13 08:55 AM

oo void - thats a simply charming picture. Really lovely and its made my day.

We have had a sudden upseurge in the UK. Of late the BBC seems to be spending more air time on some very good documentaries which are very heavily science and engineering based. There was one recently called 'Supersize World' which looks at massive engineering projects - not old stuff like the Hoover Dam but things being built RIGHT NOW ! It wasnt perhaps the most intellectual program on building but it was fascinating and I suspect keyed to younger audiences showing them just how exciting engineering can be.

We have also recently had some superb Nature and History programs and of course Stargazing Live which promotes the ever present Brian Cox as a beacon for younger people. Rock Star Physicist who is very entertaining. Its easy to be cynical about him but he is a great ambassador to kids. He loks young and he presents well in simple terms that laymen can understand and he does it all with such enthusiasm. After each of these Stargazing Live episodes (they do two a year) dealer sales go mental. Yes a lot fo these new starters will drop out but a lot will stay the course.

Personally I think each and everyone of us is responsible for getting people interested and heres the sad thing....about 3 years ago I had an offer from a youth club organiser who was seeking astronomers who would tour youth clubs in the area and give perhaps a short talk and a viewing. I was offered the chance but felt solo it was too much - each even would have maybe 60-100 kids present. I asked for help from the local astro community and got.....absolute zero...nada interest. As a result I had to drop out of the idea.

I do go to as many piblic outreach events as I can and havce done a few 'first night' events for people new to astronomy and (a small shout out here to a local dealer - Astronomia - in Dorking, Surrey) who do good work by offering events in the company of experienced people to drum up interest.

The problem is very few people want to be involved in creating the interest in youngsters.

Something else - youngsters need to be exposed to this, it doesnt mean they will rush out and buy a Takahashi the day after - you need to sow the seeds. Implantation for Later Action. They may go years with no interest and then remember hmmmmmm maybe that would be fun.

My Dad knew the sky well and when small he used to show me stars, constellations etc. As a rebelssios teen I turned my back on it but eventually it became my hobby. Show a child the path and when they are old they will not deviate from it was true for me.

Bottom line is we ALL have to try harder to foster enthusiasm. This year I am planning on taking a scope to work (if the sky ever clears) and letting people have a look on their way out of the office. I'd love to have a solar scope so I could show them that as well during their lunch hour.

I spent time last week with someone who was bought a cheap Celestron 70mm frac for Chrismas pointing stuff out for them, handing them a pile of old stuff I dont need or use anymore to help them get started. Thats what we all need to be doing.


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Footbag
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Loc: Scranton, PA
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: astro_baby]
      #5644075 - 01/26/13 10:04 AM

I completely agree with Jon above that club membership itself is not a good metric for general interest in astronomy. When I read 30 high school kids out of a thousand, I though that was pretty good. Getting them to participate in anything besides sports is difficult. With the advent of the internet, all specialty club memberships have suffered and had been replaced with forums like this.

I also think that it's easy to point at some trash TV and then blame it for the decline of intellectualism. Then again, does the sitcom The Big Bang Theory restore any of that decline? It gets better ratings then the Kardashians, right? Do you think the Lunar Ranging experiment generated any interest? How about the Nexstar in the background? Geekyness is having it's day in the sun. Shouldn't that translate to increased interest or sales?

Truth is, each generation has pointed towards some cultural phenomenon which they were certain would lead to it's demise. Consequently each generation has made a clear contribution to the prior. Sometimes it only takes one or two people.

So, I think there is a problem with how you judge whether astronomy is in decline. You can look at equipment sales, are we really selling fewer telescopes then ever before or has production just not kept up with population? If anyone knows, please chime in. It is possible that most of the stress on manufacturers is coming from lower margins, cheap labor and increased competition, like in every other industry. Or possibly, it's the ability for some to do virtual astronomy on a computer in Google Sky or on the Hubble site.

One other thing has happened in the hobby. Goto telescopes are designed for those with little experience. But many people don't know the technology exists. They remember, as do I, the telescope their father brought out. They see the Moon, maybe a planet and then they sent it to the attic. Goto's can help to find more interesting targets and hep to maintain interest. These telescopes can be had for well under $500. That's a reasonable enough price that people will buy them on a whim.


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dan_h
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/10/07

Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: astro_baby]
      #5644081 - 01/26/13 10:08 AM

Quote:

Personally I think each and everyone of us is responsible for getting people interested




Not everyone shares that sentiment. If someone is interested, I will gladly share what I can. But it is not up to me to instill an interest in someone who would much rather be doing something else.

I did a few nights with students when our youngster was in high school but the teacher made it compulsory for her classes and those who weren't interested at all were very disruptive for the whole night. Not fun. With the current turmoil over teachers contracts, school boards have made any activity that requires school resources very difficult to organize.

I have been socially active in my community for the last thirty years, everything from coaching kids sports, fund raising for elite team athletes, and more than a few nights at the soup kitchen. There is always something to do if one looks around. However, I have never had the urge to set up my scope at the end of the driveway and lure passers-by to look through it.

Outreach is not for everyone. Some folks have really hectic lives and time at the eyepiece is precious. Others simply prefer solitude, quiet, and time to reflect for themselves. I don't know of any other hobby that demands outreach as a condition of participation. Why does astronomy but not woodworking, gardening, butterfly collecting, fishing or any other liesure time activity?

dan


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csa/montana
Den Mama
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Loc: montana
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: dan_h]
      #5644128 - 01/26/13 10:35 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Personally I think each and everyone of us is responsible for getting people interested




Not everyone shares that sentiment. If someone is interested, I will gladly share what I can. But it is not up to me to instill an interest in someone who would much rather be doing something else.

I did a few nights with students when our youngster was in high school but the teacher made it compulsory for her classes and those who weren't interested at all were very disruptive for the whole night. Not fun. With the current turmoil over teachers contracts, school boards have made any activity that requires school resources very difficult to organize.

I have been socially active in my community for the last thirty years, everything from coaching kids sports, fund raising for elite team athletes, and more than a few nights at the soup kitchen. There is always something to do if one looks around. However, I have never had the urge to set up my scope at the end of the driveway and lure passers-by to look through it.

Outreach is not for everyone. Some folks have really hectic lives and time at the eyepiece is precious. Others simply prefer solitude, quiet, and time to reflect for themselves. I don't know of any other hobby that demands outreach as a condition of participation. Why does astronomy but not woodworking, gardening, butterfly collecting, fishing or any other liesure time activity?

dan




I have to agree, in my case. I'm very exhuberant about astronomy, so people know I'm interested. However, if they show no interest in spending some time looking thru my scope(s); then I will not push my hobby onto them. I also live alone in a secluded area, so am not willing to have people that I do not know, come to my place; so I don't "advertise" astronomy when I'm in town. The club here that I used to belong to, was comprised of men that used the "meetings", to discuss everything BUT astronomy. After driving approx. 60 miles roundtrip for meetings, I finally quit the club.

I absolutely enjoy it when someone does visit (several CN'rs have), as observing then is completely different from observing alone; but I also enjoy the solitude of just taking it all in, by myself.


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BlueGrass
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5644202 - 01/26/13 11:11 AM

"I absolutely enjoy it when someone does visit (several CN'rs have), as observing then is completely different from observing alone; but I also enjoy the solitude of just taking it all in, by myself."

and that is one thing about this hobby that I've read here on a continuing basis. The solitary aspect is what draws many of us, the chance to explore the universe and be out under the stars, alone with our thoughts. While I've attended a number of star parties and smaller impromptu get togethers, my most memorable and enjoyable times have been when I've been alone up in the mountains or out in the desert. Many if not most people would find this unnerving or frightening but I relish these times ... the chance to disconnect from the endless noise, mindless chatter, and stress of the job. I've told many folks, that when I retire again they'll be hard pressed to find me... 'Sorry, he's gone ... somewhere in Nevada I think ...'


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csrlice12
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: BlueGrass]
      #5644266 - 01/26/13 11:51 AM

"Something else - youngsters need to be exposed to this, it doesnt mean they will rush out and buy a Takahashi the day after - you need to sow the seeds. Implantation for Later Action. They may go years with no interest and then remember hmmmmmm maybe that would be fun."

Fits me. I had a scope as a kid, now facing retirement in a couple of years and was looking to pick back up a hobby. Decided on Astronomy. Am getting the equipment now, because I won't be able to afford it after I retire (but I will have enough for gas money to the dark site!). Coming back to this hobby has probably been the best thing I've done in a long time.......


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csrlice12
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: BlueGrass]
      #5644267 - 01/26/13 11:51 AM

"Something else - youngsters need to be exposed to this, it doesnt mean they will rush out and buy a Takahashi the day after - you need to sow the seeds. Implantation for Later Action. They may go years with no interest and then remember hmmmmmm maybe that would be fun."

Fits me. I had a scope as a kid, now facing retirement in a couple of years and was looking to pick back up a hobby. Decided on Astronomy. Am getting the equipment now, because I won't be able to afford it after I retire (but I will have enough for gas money to the dark site!). Coming back to this hobby has probably been the best thing I've done in a long time.......


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
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Reged: 05/07/07

Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5644338 - 01/26/13 12:48 PM

I don't see a lack of interest so much as a lack of available outlets. The club that I am vice president for does tons of outreach at local schools and other venues and racks up numbers in the thousands of participants each year. It is actually more difficult finding enough people with scopes to man the events than people to come to them. There are individual outreach events where over 500 people show up. Now how many of them develop a personal interest after that is hard to say. In a city of several million where it is no longer possible to put you hands on some good equipment, that certainly doesn't help either. But I'm sure that there are a lot of low end scopes sold through Walmart, etc. We can just hope that they are not so low end to simply drive people away with their poor quality.

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droid
rocketman
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Reged: 08/29/04

Loc: Conneaut, Ohio
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: EFT]
      #5644724 - 01/26/13 04:57 PM

In amatuer rocketry we actively promote the hobby , at launches we bring extra kid friendly rockets and motors, usually send the kids home with them.
I beleive our motto of pay it forward is the only way we are going to involve kids, teens or even adults.
If every amateur astronomer donated one scope to a family who cant afford one, and more importantly keep in touch with them after wards to help, we could double the number of amateur astronomers.


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korborh
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Reged: 01/29/11

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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: dan_h]
      #5644733 - 01/26/13 05:03 PM

Quote:

Outreach is not for everyone. Some folks have really hectic lives and time at the eyepiece is precious. Others simply prefer solitude, quiet, and time to reflect for themselves. I don't know of any other hobby that demands outreach as a condition of participation. Why does astronomy but not woodworking, gardening, butterfly collecting, fishing or any other liesure time activity?
dan




Well said. For me, Astronomy is very personal and I like to image/observe alone. Outreach is not my thing.


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Stew57
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Reged: 05/03/09

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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: korborh]
      #5644779 - 01/26/13 05:26 PM

While parents may see $500 doable the time the kids can spend with the scope (vs tablet) is quite low. There is a learning curve which parents may be capable of helping with and the quality of the cheaper walmart type scopes turn parents off. While there is some young people picking up the mantle I am afraid tthere are more of us ole geezers droping out. I think as the quality of the new self aligning goto scopes improves and the costs decrease there will be more interest.

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Footbag
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Stew57]
      #5644818 - 01/26/13 05:55 PM

I buried this question in one of my posts above, but maybe someone here knows the answer...

Are telescope sales in the US at an all time low? Per unit? How about worldwide.

I'm thinking its going to be hard to quantify "interest" in astronomy. Even then everyone may disagree on what kind of numbers it would take to be considered a resurgence. Is it creating professional astronomers? Selling more telescopes? Or just creating general interest?

It's still a niche hobby. Your club meeting isn't going to get better ratings then any garbage TV. So it may just be a matter of expectations.


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Footbag
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Footbag]
      #5644841 - 01/26/13 06:12 PM

I also agree that one of the draws to astronomy and imaging can be the alone time. There are many times I wished I didn't have to have conversations while I'm drift aligning. I can appreciate that.

But if you are seriously worried about the decline of astronomy, then maybe that should be the motivation to do outreach.

Either way, its not for everyone. But good thing for those who are doing it. They are planting the seeds as someone suggested above.


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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
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Reged: 05/07/07

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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Footbag]
      #5644891 - 01/26/13 06:43 PM

Quote:

Are telescope sales in the US at an all time low? Per unit? How about worldwide.




I don't think that there is any good way to gauge this, but my bet would be that it is average to high at this point rather than an all time low. You have to figure in the economy and things like that, and there is no Haley's comet right now, but overall, at least based on my business I think that the industry is surprisingly OK considering the economy. I think, and hope, that it can get better, but it is not likely at an all time low.


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John Kuraoka
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Reged: 12/12/12

Loc: Sunny San Diego, CA
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: EFT]
      #5645032 - 01/26/13 08:01 PM

A lot of factors have to align - or be actively aligned - to reach out to youngsters.

For instance, my son's elementary school has very well-attended star parties about twice a year, put on by a local club. So, yes, it takes club members willing to do outreach. But it also takes a principal willing to open the school after hours and manage the staff and volunteers for the event (and the clean-up afterwards). At my son's school, the fifth-grade class sells refreshments as a fundraiser, so the event serves a dual purpose.

But even with all that work, the star party last week was cancelled due to rain!

Whether it'll be rescheduled depends on whether there'll be another non-school night (so the kids can stay up late) with a reasonably dark sky, at a time when the club members and school staff can get together.


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Stew57
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Reged: 05/03/09

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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: John Kuraoka]
      #5645121 - 01/26/13 08:57 PM

One factor is the amount of light pollution that we have today. When people cannot see a single star for the LP they have l,ittle notice of thing related to astronomy. My inlaws in CO had a group of Japanese students to the house in CO mountains. The first night there they just stared at the sky and was amazed at the stars. They said they had never seen anything like that before.

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BlueGrass
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Stew57]
      #5645156 - 01/26/13 09:28 PM

I've seen similar reactions to being under 'a bowl of stars'... So many people that live in city and urban areas have never had the opportunity to use binoculars or a telescope under truly pristine skies. If there was a way to conduct most outreach programs under similar conditions .... these are the lifetime memory events...

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oo_void
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: BlueGrass]
      #5645231 - 01/26/13 10:39 PM

BTW ... Seems that someone removed my post and picture of my daughter on this thread. Not cool admins! If you're going to do so, at least message me. Otherwise I get worried about how much other "editorial" control is going on.

Edited by oo_void (01/26/13 10:42 PM)


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Footbag
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: oo_void]
      #5645239 - 01/26/13 10:45 PM

Quote:

BTW ... Seems that someone removed my post and picture of my daughter on this thread. Not cool admins! If you're going to do so, at least message me. Otherwise I get worried about how much other "editorial" control is going on.




This thread got split and half of it appears locked. The picture of your dayghter is in the other thread under the same title. Still visible, but locked. Great picture BTW.

Edited by Footbag (01/26/13 10:47 PM)


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cheapersleeper
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Loc: Sachse TX
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Footbag]
      #5645281 - 01/26/13 11:23 PM

Considering that a large percentage of Americans consider Scientists and Science to be "corrupt" charlatans trying to dupe the American people via the Media, I am not at all surprised that there is little interest in Science in this country. What goes around comes around and I don't see how we in the US can wage a war to discredit science and simultaneously do a good job of getting our kids interested in it

Regards,
Brad


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starrancher
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Reged: 06/09/09

Loc: Northern Arizona
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: cheapersleeper]
      #5645302 - 01/26/13 11:51 PM

Mikey ! Are you out there ? What happened to you ? The humorous posts about us being cynical Germans is gone ! OMG ! WGOH !


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mikey cee
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Loc: bellevue ne.
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: starrancher]
      #5645320 - 01/27/13 12:16 AM

Dave they probably think w'ere an arm of the N--------- S------- party! Never have been. You? Mike

Edited by mikey cee (01/27/13 12:19 AM)


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starrancher
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Reged: 06/09/09

Loc: Northern Arizona
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: mikey cee]
      #5645322 - 01/27/13 12:20 AM

Quote:

Dave they probably think w'ere an arm of the Nationalist Socialist party! Never have been. You? Mike




Are you kidding , I'm a staunch conservative !
Stars and Bars all the way !


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mikey cee
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: starrancher]
      #5645325 - 01/27/13 12:27 AM

Any ways I'm over on Classics getting hit in the Observing in the 60's 70's. Little sense of humor there too. Mike

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starrancher
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Reged: 06/09/09

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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: starrancher]
      #5645328 - 01/27/13 12:31 AM

I think my sense of humor is getting misinterpreted . I know that I don't come out of the cookie cutter mold and am somewhat unorthodoxed but nonetheless saw nothing but a grand old thread goin on . I'm puzzled that a touch of humor here and there seems to be frowned upon .
To all concerned , please forgive my shortcomings .


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tecmageModerator
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: starrancher]
      #5645356 - 01/27/13 01:17 AM

Okay, I took a look into what happened. Some posts were removed because they violated to the TOS. Depending on how we remove posts from threads, we can remove more posts than we intend.

BTW, If you have a question about moderator, contact a Mod.

Yes, the Mods and Admins DO have senses of humor.


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Jon Isaacs
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Reged: 06/16/04

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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5645443 - 01/27/13 04:03 AM

Quote:

I have to agree, in my case. I'm very exhuberant about astronomy, so people know I'm interested. However, if they show no interest in spending some time looking thru my scope(s); then I will not push my hobby onto them. I also live alone in a secluded area, so am not willing to have people that I do not know, come to my place; so I don't "advertise" astronomy when I'm in town. The club here that I used to belong to, was comprised of men that used the "meetings", to discuss everything BUT astronomy. After driving approx. 60 miles roundtrip for meetings, I finally quit the club.

I absolutely enjoy it when someone does visit (several CN'rs have), as observing then is completely different from observing alone; but I also enjoy the solitude of just taking it all in, by myself.




I enjoy observing in solitude, that is my preferred mode.

I also enjoy sharing the night sky with others, doing various sorts of outreach. But my goal is not to proselytize amateur astronomy as a hobby, I do it because I enjoy people and I enjoy sharing their excitement as they look through an eyepiece for the first time at Jupiter or the Pleiades. I have no ulterior motive, I am not trying to attract new converts to this wonderful pursuit, my desire is only that moment of sharing the beauty and wonder of the universe.

I imagine that for some, those few moments at the eyepiece will be something they remember for the rest of their days, it's a shared gift, we are both giving, both receiving. Gifts are best if they are freely given with no expectations.

Jon


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John Carruthers
Skiprat
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Reged: 02/02/07

Loc: Kent, UK
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: astro_baby]
      #5645486 - 01/27/13 05:03 AM

>>... I asked for help from the local astro community and got.....absolute zero...nada interest. As a result I had to drop out of the idea...<<

I'm sad to hear that. Our local AS SEKAS (and many others) help out at several schools and have members happy to give talks and demos to any interested group.
We are fortunate to have some inspired science teachers in our area who are willing to take up their student's interest in astronomy either at gcse level or as extra curricular activities.
Stargazing Live was a great success round here despite the weather and it brought the usual spurt of interest. Lots of xmas scopes to advise on and help set up.
The Sky at Night and Horizon help keep the profile of astronomy up too.


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astro_baby
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 06/17/08

Loc: United Kingdom
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: John Carruthers]
      #5645532 - 01/27/13 06:45 AM

Yes, it was sad John. I was a bit depressed about it at the time. But i still do outreach in a small way. I am a mobile observer so When ai set up on some hilside if anyone wanders pastand asks I will let them have a look atp stuff. About two years ago a pile of hill walkers were doing a walk at night as I was using my Mak. Gave them alla view of Saturn and they were amazed at what could be seen.

Similarly when I go camping i let other tents know I will be out late but of they happen by they are welcome to a look. I let them know ai am out late so they arent alarmed by low voices and the cliink of stuff inthe early hours.

Always had enthusiastic responses from people and you never know you could be introducing a life long interest to someone.

guildford AS do outreach as wel,and if I can I take one of my scopes along just so they have an extra scope for people to look through.

I dont do astro societies I am afraid......they are often too political.


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csrlice12
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Loc: Denver, CO
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: korborh]
      #5645705 - 01/27/13 09:56 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Outreach is not for everyone. Some folks have really hectic lives and time at the eyepiece is precious. Others simply prefer solitude, quiet, and time to reflect for themselves. I don't know of any other hobby that demands outreach as a condition of participation. Why does astronomy but not woodworking, gardening, butterfly collecting, fishing or any other liesure time activity?
dan




Well said. For me, Astronomy is very personal and I like to image/observe alone. Outreach is not my thing.




When fishing, outreach to the fish is kind of the idea...never was much good convincing them to bite the hook though..... Buy yea, I agree. I'm not a real social person, even outside of astronomy. I do most of my viewing alone as I prefer it; however, I do enjoy the occasional Dark Sky weekend though. Oddly enough, I see some of the same people I see at that scope shop...kinda like a scene out of Close Encounters....


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CounterWeight
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Reged: 10/05/08

Loc: Palo alto, CA.
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5645864 - 01/27/13 11:23 AM

If the question is, does outreach increase scope sales... difficult question. The US economy went reeling after finding out that money was something real, and we still have not recovered from the 'casino economy', and I'm unsure about what if any lessons learned. Basing on prior 20-30 years may be faulty as I think most of that was abstract credit dollars and not something folks saved real $ to buy. Maybe actual sales with real money are better reflected in the last 2 to 3 years (this includes the 'used' market).

On the other aspect, education... well we are struggling there mightily and I think it does require a certain minimum education for astronomy and other sciences to be seen as important and not abstract or elitist, and the leasure time for curiousity to be indulged. We've become a country dominated by cheap things, not inexpensive quality things - this I see as a huge paradigm shift in my lifetime. As for me I'd love to see inexpensive of a reasonable minimum quality.

So in a reverse way I'd postulate that the years prior to 2008 (specifically mid 90's to ~2009) were the unreliable numbers and the recent few the more accurate.

With respect to the infomation age I think owning and using a scope is the odd 'better off' person, as it was long ago. Many feel it sufficient to mouse click their way to whatever it is, watch a TV program, electronic media is changing a lot of things. The last few outreaches I did in the city, most were busy factoid checking everything on their smartphones and viewing through the ep was 'interesting' more in the sense of what it could do in reality, but this was more a 'vs.' what the emedia had - and what it had was a lot more in ways.

There is a thread in the stellar media forum about hardcopy books vs digital version where it's postulated that books wil disappear eventually because of the digital information and media, perhaps telescope sales are being impacted in a similar way?

I grew up reading books and looking through the eyepiece. The images from satellites... Pioneer to Hubble and others, I can see far more intimate detail in those images (and it obsoleted all previous earth based imagery I had)- though in a different way. But the reality is it is information and is not abstract as it's based on direct experience in a way. In a large way, I think that may have an impact, and perhaps the notion because telescopes are not being used to access visual information there is less interest - may be misguided on our part?

Just throwing all this out there.


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Lorence
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/15/08

Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: JayinUT]
      #5646707 - 01/27/13 07:00 PM

Quote:

So do I think the future is hopeful? I don't think the hobby will die, but it is going to change. The days of pure visual observing are slowly fading as technology brings in new aspects of doing the hobby. If prices can be lowered the hobby will continue to move to imaging as light pollution continues to grow with the population. That means higher costs to get to dark sites or on outlays of equipment. That will mean income is needed and most adults starting out in life do not have the extra income. In the end it's just a guess and time will tell.




What counts as pure visual observing? An eyepiece? What of an electronic eyepiece?

I observe exclusively with cameras. Depending on the brightness of the object I am either viewing live video, integrated video or CCD exposures ranging from two thousandths of a second to two minutes. Other than the live stacking of a series of exposures I don't do any image processing. The stacking procedure is live. I see the individual images as they come from the camera and watch as they build up a cleaner stacked image. Stacking filters out the electronic noise made by the camera just like a Light Pollution filter filters out the visual noise made by all the lights.

Nobody will ever convince me that the image in an eyepiece is any purer than what I see on a screen. To my way of thinking the camera simply amplifies the the visual signal to help me see better, just as a hearing aid amplifies sound to help some hear better.

Would anyone suggest to a person that is hard of hearing not to use a hearing aid because the sound is not pure, it has been amplified and therefor is not really the original sound?

Of course not, but many eyepiece observers would swear that my kind of observing is not really observing. As a matter of fact some will go out of their way to discourage my kind of observing.

The irony is the video cameras I use work every well in light polluted areas. People can see more with a video camera in their light polluted back yard than they can see if they took their telescope to a dark sight and used an eyepiece.

Why on earth would anyone interested in astronomy discourage electronic viewing? I have no ides, but I have seen it happen many times. Bring up the topic of electronic viewing on a visual forum and watch the fur fly.

The future is in electronics. It will take some time though. As for cost, cameras are expensive now but then look at how much one can spend on eyepieces.

When enough cameras are being sold to attract the interest of the major manufactures the prices of cameras will drop substantially. I can see the price of cameras being lower than eyepieces eventually.


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StarStuff1
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Reged: 04/01/07

Loc: South of the Mason-Dixon Line
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Lorence]
      #5646793 - 01/27/13 07:49 PM

Yo Lorence,

This is the reason that most of my observing is done with my IIE (Image Intensifier Eyepiece) and various filters. I can see stuff from ny surburban yard that are near to invisible from a dark, pristine site hours away. Not everyone enjoys it. Complaints about "green sprinkles" when using a photographic Ha filter. But, I learned the hard way that IIE viewing is not for kids. Since I do a fair amount of outreach I do use a video camera quite often. Everyone with some vision can see a monitor.

Agreed, electronics will rule the future of our beloved hobby.


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
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Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: starrancher]
      #5646798 - 01/27/13 07:50 PM

They are remaking Cosmos. I wonder why. It's Fox, even, doing the remake. PBS did the original. How's that for contrast?

I doubt that they'd bother unless they felt that there would be an audience for it, and they could make a buck. I also applaud them for finally branching out into non-fiction. A first for Fox, I'm pretty sure.

- Jim

Edited by jrbarnett (01/27/13 07:58 PM)


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starrancher
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 06/09/09

Loc: Northern Arizona
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Lorence]
      #5646956 - 01/27/13 09:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

So do I think the future is hopeful? I don't think the hobby will die, but it is going to change. The days of pure visual observing are slowly fading as technology brings in new aspects of doing the hobby. If prices can be lowered the hobby will continue to move to imaging as light pollution continues to grow with the population. That means higher costs to get to dark sites or on outlays of equipment. That will mean income is needed and most adults starting out in life do not have the extra income. In the end it's just a guess and time will tell.




What counts as pure visual observing? An eyepiece? What of an electronic eyepiece?

I observe exclusively with cameras. Depending on the brightness of the object I am either viewing live video, integrated video or CCD exposures ranging from two thousandths of a second to two minutes. Other than the live stacking of a series of exposures I don't do any image processing. The stacking procedure is live. I see the individual images as they come from the camera and watch as they build up a cleaner stacked image. Stacking filters out the electronic noise made by the camera just like a Light Pollution filter filters out the visual noise made by all the lights.

Nobody will ever convince me that the image in an eyepiece is any purer than what I see on a screen. To my way of thinking the camera simply amplifies the the visual signal to help me see better, just as a hearing aid amplifies sound to help some hear better.

Would anyone suggest to a person that is hard of hearing not to use a hearing aid because the sound is not pure, it has been amplified and therefor is not really the original sound?

Of course not, but many eyepiece observers would swear that my kind of observing is not really observing. As a matter of fact some will go out of their way to discourage my kind of observing.

The irony is the video cameras I use work every well in light polluted areas. People can see more with a video camera in their light polluted back yard than they can see if they took their telescope to a dark sight and used an eyepiece.

Why on earth would anyone interested in astronomy discourage electronic viewing? I have no ides, but I have seen it happen many times. Bring up the topic of electronic viewing on a visual forum and watch the fur fly.

The future is in electronics. It will take some time though. As for cost, cameras are expensive now but then look at how much one can spend on eyepieces.V

When enough cameras are being sold to attract the interest of the major manufactures the prices of cameras will drop substantially. I can see the price of cameras being lower than eyepieces eventually.




That camera discussion is old long ago .

Edited by tecmage (01/28/13 12:40 AM)


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mikey cee
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Loc: bellevue ne.
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: starrancher]
      #5647250 - 01/28/13 12:30 AM



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Tom Polakis
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Loc: Tempe, Arizona
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Lorence]
      #5647286 - 01/28/13 01:01 AM

Quote:



The future is in electronics. It will take some time though. As for cost, cameras are expensive now but then look at how much one can spend on eyepieces.

When enough cameras are being sold to attract the interest of the major manufactures the prices of cameras will drop substantially. I can see the price of cameras being lower than eyepieces eventually.






Video astronomy may indeed be the future, which will ensure that people spend even more of their waking hours staring at glowing rectangles.

Tom


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Dan Watt
professor emeritus
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Reged: 10/13/09

Loc: Oceanside, Calfornia.
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Tom Polakis]
      #5647309 - 01/28/13 01:26 AM

I'm 26 and I've been in this hobby for a little over three or four years now. I'm party of two of the local astro clubs and while I have seen people my age or younger on occasion, I've never seen them more than once. And I'm out there at least twice a month.

From time to time I have asked plenty of friends if they would like to come with, and most of the time there is a complete lack of interest. Friends range from, for lack of a better word, nerds, all the way to friends of mine in punk or metal bands. Even the people that own Cosmos on DVD, constantly post astro news on their Facebook and know plenty about astronomy express little interest in actually going out to observe (to contrast, the one person that usually likes to go was the singer to a party themed grindcore band).

Why? It isn't time. I've seen them spend a whole weekend playing videogames or hiking or whatever. I don't think its money either, while telescopes aren't exactly dirt cheap a simple dob or set of binos isn't going to break the bank. The interest is there too.

So what is missing? I really don't have a clue. You could say that their attention span is too low. But mine is too! Or at least was but this hobby (and especially astrophotography) has taught me a good deal of patience over the years, but I still got hooked.

I just asked my girlfriend who is 24 what she thinks. "Fuzzy blobs aren't very stimulating".

Maybe thats just it. I mean, I don't accept that at all for a second myself but maybe that is all there is to the general disinterest exhibited by my peers.


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Raginar
Postmaster
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Reged: 10/19/10

Loc: Rapid CIty, SD
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Dan Watt]
      #5647543 - 01/28/13 08:06 AM

Dan,

Not a lot of 'kids' around your age can afford the hobby. Or, they're too busy huntng/hiking/traveling/fishing/doing manly pursuits. At least, that's what I get out of the community I'm apart of.


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csrlice12
Postmaster
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Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5647556 - 01/28/13 08:12 AM

Quote:

They are remaking Cosmos. I wonder why. It's Fox, even, doing the remake. PBS did the original. How's that for contrast?

I doubt that they'd bother unless they felt that there would be an audience for it, and they could make a buck. I also applaud them for finally branching out into non-fiction. A first for Fox, I'm pretty sure.

- Jim




Billions and Billions of stars.....all under 6,000 years old......Just ask Fred and Dino!


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Phil Sherman
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 12/07/10

Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5648171 - 01/28/13 01:24 PM

One of the biggest problems I've encountered is the lack of a place to observe from near home. I live in an inner ring suburb that's famous for its tree lined streets. Unfortunately, city regulations prohibit use of any parks or school grounds after dark. Both of these areas have open fields and one park is completely shaded from the nearby street lights and even has restrooms.

I'm currently visiting my daughter and grandchildren. Last week, I did an astronomy program for a preschool class and ended up spending over three hours letting over a hundred kids up through 5th grade view sunspots through my filtered 80mm guidescope, set up on its own tabletop mount. I'm hoping for good weather tomorrow to do the same for a K-1 class for my other grandchild.

Phil


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dan_h
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/10/07

Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Raginar]
      #5648245 - 01/28/13 01:51 PM

Quote:

Dan,

Not a lot of 'kids' around your age can afford the hobby.........




Kids have more disposable income than most adults. Have you seen the price of concert tickets lately? (Not to mention the cost of appropriate fashion.)

dan


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Lorence
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/15/08

Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: starrancher]
      #5648266 - 01/28/13 01:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Nobody will ever convince me that the image in an eyepiece is any purer than what I see on a screen. To my way of thinking the camera simply amplifies the the visual signal to help me see better, just as a hearing aid amplifies sound to help some hear better.

Would anyone suggest to a person that is hard of hearing not to use a hearing aid because the sound is not pure, it has been amplified and therefor is not really the original sound?

Of course not, but many eyepiece observers would swear that my kind of observing is not really observing. As a matter of fact some will go out of their way to discourage my kind of observing.




That camera discussion is old long ago .




Yes it is, and it's obvious you didn't mind going out of your way to mention that fact.

Remember this quote of yours from another thread?

"I'll take the color free image through the eyepiece and leave the abominated images behind with a bit of money for the fuel tank if needed ."

Somewhat prejudiced?

I wanted to make a point, thanks for helping.


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Lorence
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/15/08

Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Tom Polakis]
      #5648383 - 01/28/13 02:43 PM

Quote:

Video astronomy may indeed be the future, which will ensure that people spend even more of their waking hours staring at glowing rectangles.

Tom




Here's one of my glowing rectangle abominations. I wasted two minutes of my life waiting for it to go from the camera to the screen. To make matters worse I wasted even more time looking at it.

It's a 1.7 meg image. No processing.

http://www.mts.net/~lmlod/Photo/M42%20Full%20Res%202%20min.jpg

My apologies for showing this image again but it's the only one I have of an object bright enough for most eyepiece users to see clearly. I save very few images. The rest are of objects too faint.


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starrancher
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 06/09/09

Loc: Northern Arizona
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Lorence]
      #5648403 - 01/28/13 02:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Nobody will ever convince me that the image in an eyepiece is any purer than what I see on a screen. To my way of thinking the camera simply amplifies the the visual signal to help me see better, just as a hearing aid amplifies sound to help some hear better.

Would anyone suggest to a person that is hard of hearing not to use a hearing aid because the sound is not pure, it has been amplified and therefor is not really the original sound?

Of course not, but many eyepiece observers would swear that my kind of observing is not really observing. As a matter of fact some will go out of their way to discourage my kind of observing.




That camera discussion is old long ago .




Yes it is, and it's obvious you didn't mind going out of your way to mention that fact.

Remember this quote of yours from another thread?

"I'll take the color free image through the eyepiece and leave the abominated images behind with a bit of money for the fuel tank if needed ."

Somewhat prejudiced?

I wanted to make a point, thanks for helping.




What point ? I dont see it .
What your saying is liken to saying that seeing a Hockey game on a TV screen is the same as being there . Or the Rose parade . Is viewing it on a monitor the same as sitting on the sidewalk as it goes by ?
There is indeed an intimacy in the view through an eyepiece that just can't be had in any other way . If one cannot fathom that this difference is tangible , I would think something might be missing . If viewing in this manner is personal preference , fine and dandy , but attempting to convey that watching a football game on TV is as live as sitting on the fifty yard line is misleadingly false and it seem this is what you are attempting to do . No criticism on the part of your preference , . Just not my preference . And no need to get nasty about it , it makes you seem like an intolerant being . Every one has their own way of enjoying the hobby , so expressing ones point of view doesn't need to be taken head in with strong rebuttle . You see it your way , I see it mine , but Im not gonna dig up old posted quotes of yours in an attemp to make a spectacle of things . I'm just an old fashioned guy that's gonna view the old fashioned way , and sorry if that doesn't suit your fancy .


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cn register 5
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 12/26/12

Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: starrancher]
      #5648499 - 01/28/13 03:31 PM

Be nice.

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Lorence
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/15/08

Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: StarStuff1]
      #5648527 - 01/28/13 03:43 PM

Quote:

Yo Lorence,

This is the reason that most of my observing is done with my IIE (Image Intensifier Eyepiece) and various filters. I can see stuff from ny surburban yard that are near to invisible from a dark, pristine site hours away. Not everyone enjoys it. Complaints about "green sprinkles" when using a photographic Ha filter. But, I learned the hard way that IIE viewing is not for kids. Since I do a fair amount of outreach I do use a video camera quite often. Everyone with some vision can see a monitor.

Agreed, electronics will rule the future of our beloved hobby.




I always enjoy seeing your images. They offer another way of looking at the sky. There can't be too many ways to see if every way is in some way unique. That some don't like your images is their loss.

Seems to me that if someone could make a camera that combined the characteristics of Image Intensifiers, Mallincams, Infrared and a few other spectrums we would have something very interesting.


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Dan Watt
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Loc: Oceanside, Calfornia.
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Raginar]
      #5648561 - 01/28/13 04:00 PM

Quote:

Dan,

Not a lot of 'kids' around your age can afford the hobby. Or, they're too busy huntng/hiking/traveling/fishing/doing manly pursuits. At least, that's what I get out of the community I'm apart of.




Maybe, although I live in South Orange County... I see 16 year old kids driving BMWs more often than Hondas.


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Tom Polakis
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 12/20/04

Loc: Tempe, Arizona
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Lorence]
      #5648631 - 01/28/13 04:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Video astronomy may indeed be the future, which will ensure that people spend even more of their waking hours staring at glowing rectangles.

Tom




Here's one of my glowing rectangle abominations. I wasted two minutes of my life waiting for it to go from the camera to the screen. To make matters worse I wasted even more time looking at it.

It's a 1.7 meg image. No processing.

http://www.mts.net/~lmlod/Photo/M42%20Full%20Res%202%20min.jpg

My apologies for showing this image again but it's the only one I have of an object bright enough for most eyepiece users to see clearly. I save very few images. The rest are of objects too faint.




I really don't want to perpetuate a discussion that appears to be your hobby horse, but I sure am happy to be able to see both the Trapezium and the surrounding nebula visually through my 70mm Pronto.

Note that I have actually been an advocate of our astronomy club getting a Mallincam for outreach. People wait in line under an urban sky to get into the dome, and a small scope/Mallincam would be perfect. Again, just like CCD imaging, this bears no resemblance to visual observing, but it can augment it.

Tom


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Lorence
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/15/08

Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: starrancher]
      #5648963 - 01/28/13 06:50 PM

Quote:

No criticism on the part of your preference , . Just not my preference . And no need to get nasty about it , it makes you seem like an intolerant being . Every one has their own way of enjoying the hobby , so expressing ones point of view doesn't need to be taken head in with strong rebuttle . You see it your way , I see it mine




Can you see that what I am doing is nothing more than a form of outreach. Some stand up on a sidewalk or in a park and say "Look what you can see through my telescope" I chose to stand up here and say "Look what you can see through my telescope and you can also see the same thing through your telescope even if you are in a badly light polluted area."

For that I got "That camera discussion is old long ago." On another group the response from you and a few others was "Go back where you came from. We don't want to hear anything about what you people do."

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5581110/page...

I can imagine what would happen if one of the sidewalk outreach observers was greeted with that sort of welcome.

As for the live experience, you can't taste a photon or feel it. It only creates a signal that your brain sees as an image.

Who are you to tell everyone that my image is not as good as yours? They are only images.

You are not there as you tried to point out. We are both here looking at an object through a device. Somehow along the line that look is translated into an image inside out heads, nothing else. If being there is the only way to do it, explain why billions watch and enjoy sporting events on TV throughout the world.

I am doing my best to generate more interest in astronomy, be it with newcomers or with people who like me have been observing for over fifty years.

What are you trying to do?


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rigelsys
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5649063 - 01/28/13 07:41 PM

Having taught astronomy lab class for 35 years at a local Community College, this is the way I see it too. Between 20 and 50 people are busy getting through the middle passage of career, spouse, mortages, kids, mortages, investments, fast cars, fast living, etc...

Still, if you show them the stars when they're under 20, they come back around when they're over 50.

That's what I've seen in my class ... a sea of 20 somethings trying to fulfil a science requirements with a sprinkling of 50 somethings reengaging with the wonder of it all.

Quote:

"Something else - youngsters need to be exposed to this, it doesnt mean they will rush out and buy a Takahashi the day after - you need to sow the seeds. Implantation for Later Action. They may go years with no interest and then remember hmmmmmm maybe that would be fun."

Fits me. I had a scope as a kid, now facing retirement in a couple of years and was looking to pick back up a hobby. Decided on Astronomy. Am getting the equipment now, because I won't be able to afford it after I retire (but I will have enough for gas money to the dark site!). Coming back to this hobby has probably been the best thing I've done in a long time.......




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starrancher
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Lorence]
      #5649191 - 01/28/13 08:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

No criticism on the part of your preference , . Just not my preference . And no need to get nasty about it , it makes you seem like an intolerant being . Every one has their own way of enjoying the hobby , so expressing ones point of view doesn't need to be taken head in with strong rebuttle . You see it your way , I see it mine




Can you see that what I am doing is nothing more than a form of outreach. Some stand up on a sidewalk or in a park and say "Look what you can see through my telescope" I chose to stand up here and say "Look what you can see through my telescope and you can also see the same thing through your telescope even if you are in a badly light polluted area."

For that I got "That camera discussion is old long ago." On another group the response from you and a few others was "Go back where you came from. We don't want to hear anything about what you people do."

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5581110/page...

I can imagine what would happen if one of the sidewalk outreach observers was greeted with that sort of welcome.

As for the live experience, you can't taste a photon or feel it. It only creates a signal that your brain sees as an image.

Who are you to tell everyone that my image is not as good as yours? They are only images.

You are not there as you tried to point out. We are both here looking at an object through a device. Somehow along the line that look is translated into an image inside out heads, nothing else. If being there is the only way to do it, explain why billions watch and enjoy sporting events on TV throughout the world.

I am doing my best to generate more interest in astronomy, be it with newcomers or with people who like me have been observing for over fifty years.

What are you trying to do?




First off , I have conveyed in other posts that I have attended outreach events with the Andromeda Society out of the high desert in So. Cal. whom are truly a great bunch of folks that dedicate an entire section of spots to video astronomy . I have no problem with this and have actually set up among that section prior to being informed that I was within the video section . Aside from a little LP due to the monitors , still had a great time and wasn't about to tear down and move to the visual observers area . Next time out , I joined the rest of the clan in the visual section .
Secondly , I don't recall anyone posting a "go back to where you came from" post . Now I may have missed that and this could be considered a little over the top , but I have only stated that it is not my cup of tea and I feel that an intimate aspect of actually viewing through a piece of glass is being lost in the experience . While on the other hand , you seem to be critical of those purists that continue to enjoy the intimacy that comes with the direct approach of using an eyepiece . Again in my opinion , there is an intimacy that cannot be replaced in any other form that is experienced in using an ocular . To each his own . It isn't an attempt to discourage the use of video astronomy at all , only to convey that the eyepiece approach provides that sense of being at one with the sky could be somewhat lost in the interim . Is that a bad thing ? Should we just skip that all together ? I believe in doing so , would be an injustice to an individual in that they may never feel the at one with experience . You should be able to appreciate that as well .
I have only expressed my personal opinion on the subject and nothing more . I'd rather spend some cash on fuel getting to a good dark site vs on a video astronomy set up . Again , to each his own . If you don't want to be put down for the way you want to do it , you shouldn't put others down for not . That's all . By the way , when I was set up in the video section out at Joshua Tree National Park , I had a line of folks a hundred feet long waiting to view through my Plossl . Lots of ooohs and aaahs , which is more than I can say for the video monitors . Maybe there is something to be said for us old fashioned guys that want to do things in the traditional method .
Criticism and stating a point of view are two separate things . It's a two way street . So attempting to convey that your way is superior is bound to receive some scoffing by the traditionalist .


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tecmageModerator
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Reged: 01/13/10

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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: starrancher]
      #5649258 - 01/28/13 09:01 PM

Okay, be nice.

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Stew57
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: tecmage]
      #5649345 - 01/28/13 09:59 PM

My eyesight is not what it once was.Using the video (mallincam in my case) has revitalized my hooby. Just wish I could get the FOV that the newer eyepieces give.

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Raginar
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: dan_h]
      #5649623 - 01/29/13 01:49 AM

Very true. Mostly because they're all living at home!

Life is cheap when you don't have to pay for it.


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Joe Bergeron
Vendor - Space Art


Reged: 11/10/03

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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Tom Polakis]
      #5653238 - 01/30/13 09:21 PM

Video astronomy reminds me of those guys who make space art with spray cans:

Spray Can Space Artist

The result isn't really very good, but it's fast, and people are always impressed to see it made right in front of them.


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PaulEK
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Reged: 05/25/08

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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Joe Bergeron]
      #5653387 - 01/30/13 10:54 PM

I do outreach and like viewing/imaging alone. I also like tinkering with gear.

Last summer, the summer library theme here in Wisconsin was all about nighttime. I went to about 50 libraries with my portable planetarium, presented to over 100 groups, mostly kids, for a total of over 3000 people. During a typical year it's less, but still always in the hundreds.

I also work with 5 to 10-year-olds every day, and have for decades. I agree that there are fewer young folks involved in astronomy (and other worthy pursuits) than there ought to be. I blame two cultural changes we've gone through:

1. Many parents are convinced that their kids have to have some kind of scheduled activities going on all the time (preferably, it seems, activities that don't involve the parents). Sports are the big one. These kids just don't have time.

2. Much more common, and not really new: parents who don't know or care at all what their kids are doing, so those kids spend a lot of time in front of screens, because it's easy, staves off boredom, and requires no commitment. I'm 52, and I grew up in a home with little parenting. I (and my many siblings) watched TV every day from the time we got up till we went to school, then from the time we got home till bed. I still have pretty much every episode of Gilligan's Island memorized.

But there are plenty of kids who are very interested in astronomy, and science in general. But all kids are sponges for all that's new, if given the chance and encouragement, so they typically don't stick with something for the long term without adult encouragement. And too many parents are either two busy with their own priorities to give that encouragement, or they just don't care. Those that do care have the kids that I see in the libraries.

The last trend I'd look at, which someone upthread mentioned, is that many people have turned against science -- and even reality -- in the US. More and more in my planetarium, I'm having kids challenge me; actively denying the age of the universe, the size and distances to stars. I get questions, asked in a snarky way, like 'How can they possibly know that?' It doesn't happen often, but it happens more than it used to. I also had kids, clearly worried, ask if the world was really going to end last month. It's sad, and it worries me.

These are just my observations, in no particular order or presented for any other reason but to share.


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Raginar
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: PaulEK]
      #5655724 - 02/01/13 08:05 AM

Paul, thanks for sharing with us. I've always been surprised by the number of kids who don't ask questions like that. Unfortunately, there are parents who believe that stuff. I knew one guy who told his children in high school to actively challenge their teachers on issues like that.

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rockethead26
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Reged: 10/21/09

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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Raginar]
      #5655759 - 02/01/13 08:20 AM

There really isn't a problem with challenging what's being taught. Think about it from an opposite point of view. What if your children were being taught the "other" point of view. Would you not want your children to challenge the assertions?

The responsibility falls onto the teachers (as it always has) to present the scientific evidence to back up what they are teaching. With proper presentation, progress is made. Unfortunately, in our country, education in not a priority and these old myths resurface.


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ahopp
sage


Reged: 05/24/12

Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: rockethead26]
      #5655815 - 02/01/13 08:40 AM

I have no problem with a student, at any age, challenging their teacher. It just needs to be done in a respectful manner.

Tony


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ponz
super member


Reged: 07/18/12

Loc: Kansas City, MO
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Mxplx2]
      #5655837 - 02/01/13 08:51 AM

Quote:

When I was a kid we had a TV show called Mr. Wizard on Saturdays. He did all kinds of interesting scientific things and it was must see TV for me every Saturday. Today, Saturdays are all cartoons and sugary cereal commercials. First they rot their minds and then they rot their teeth.




I too enjoyed Mr Wizard!

Ponz


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csrlice12
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: ponz]
      #5655844 - 02/01/13 08:57 AM

"The last trend I'd look at, which someone upthread mentioned, is that many people have turned against science -- and even reality -- in the US. More and more in my planetarium, I'm having kids challenge me; actively denying the age of the universe, the size and distances to stars. I get questions, asked in a snarky way, like 'How can they possibly know that?' It doesn't happen often, but it happens more than it used to. I also had kids, clearly worried, ask if the world was really going to end last month. It's sad, and it worries me."

How far we've come from hiding in caves because we fear the universe......


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Astrojensen
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5656000 - 02/01/13 10:15 AM

Just when I thought this thread was dead...


I think that a lot of the criticism against science from kids and adults alike comes from the fact that they don't understand how science works, the scientific method. Why theories can change or be replaced, as new things are discovered, instead of remaining the same.

And we should remind EVERYONE that nearly EVERYTHING they use in modern society, from washing machines, to cars, TV, internet, plastic bags, nylon socks, LED flashlights, loudspeakers, oil, perfume, medicine, etc, etc, is made possible ONLY by the intensive use of scientific methods and research.

I can't help to find it funny that the enemies of science have no trouble using modern media in communications as well as drive cars and go to the hospital and use modern medicine to cure an illness. Most all of us, including the deniers, OWE OUR LIFE to science! Before modern medicine, the childhood mortality rate age zero to five years of age was around 50% to 70% and if you happened to catch pneumonia, even as a strong adult, it was often the end for you. My own life has been saved by science on several occasions. Including from pneumonia, which, given how ill I was, would surely have killed me, if it had been left untreated.

I think a lot of people don't see medicine as a science. It's just someone's job. Save my life, doctor! But the good doctor can't save your life without penicillin, which was discovered by a scientist. Maybe people only see those things that they don't really understand, the pure research into the unknown, as science. Astronomy, quantum mechanics, that sort of thing. But science is like a giant tree, with a lot of different branches. Astronomy, quantum physics, chemistry, biology, mathematics, etc. They are different branches on the same tree.

And that tree doesn't grow from our society, our society is upheld by its strong trunk, lifted up in the sunshine and let us see more of the surrounding landscape, more and more as the tree grows.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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cheapersleeper
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: rockethead26]
      #5656108 - 02/01/13 10:51 AM

Quote:

There really isn't a problem with challenging what's being taught. Think about it from an opposite point of view. What if your children were being taught the "other" point of view. Would you not want your children to challenge the assertions?

The responsibility falls onto the teachers (as it always has) to present the scientific evidence to back up what they are teaching. With proper presentation, progress is made. Unfortunately, in our country, education in not a priority and these old myths resurface.





It is not possible to use evidence to disprove beliefs and it is certainly not possible to educate the willfully ignorant.

B


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csrlice12
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5656112 - 02/01/13 10:53 AM

Antibiotics? You didn't do it right; you're supposed to rub the entrails of a 3-day-dead chicken on your chest followed up by drinking an entire bottle of Rebel Yell (Rob known cure for whatever ails you). When you can see Jupiter thru the bottom of the bottlescope, you're cured (at least temporarily).

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PaulEK
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5656390 - 02/01/13 01:39 PM

Many of the kids I see do not go to school; they are home-schooled. If I argue with them, I am arguing pretty much directly with their parents. But I do it anyway. I agree completely with Thomas. Science works; it is a process, a way of looking at the world. I try my best to get that point across, especially if I get disagreement. When I'm asked, "How can 'they' know that?" I give as clear an answer as I can, though it isn't easy with young kids, especially those without basic knowledge. I'll talk about the speed of light, how international radio conversations can be slowed by it. How we know that we know how far the planets are because we've actually gone to them. How we've figured out how far the stars are by using parallax measurements with the earth's orbit around the sun to find the closest, and other methods to find those farther away. I talk about the things Thomas writes of.

Of course, I don't always have much time for this, so I cannot cover all the details with most groups. And I really don't do it to convince that particular challenging kid (though it would be nice to get through the denial), but to show the kids around him that, to be blunt, if he doesn't want to believe me, he's wrong. Reality can be denied, but it's still there to be seen, and to be understood, with science. And understanding the particulars is not beyond those interested enough to find out.

I just did a presentation this morning, and want to make clear that most kids don't need convincing. They were excited, and very grateful for the chance to see and learn. Kids tell you what they think, if you let them, and these kids kept thanking me, and said 'Wow!' a lot.


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csrlice12
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: PaulEK]
      #5656440 - 02/01/13 02:08 PM

They keep asking "How do you know"; yet espouse "faith" as a fact....

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PaulEK
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5657006 - 02/01/13 07:23 PM

One thing I think some people have trouble with is that science does not claim to have final answers. As we learn more, we change what we think is true. For some people, that is seen as a weakness. Others actually claim it is dishonest and misleading. These folks do not understand science, or claim they don't. If you are not willing to change your mind about what is real when given new and compelling evidence, then science won't work for you.

This is fine with me, until these folks start trying to tell others how they should or should not view the world, and how we should all live in it. When I'm not feeling generous toward the selfishness of this viewpoint, I sometimes wish these folks would give up the benefits that the science they deny gives them every day.


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Raginar
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: ahopp]
      #5657080 - 02/01/13 08:20 PM

Ahopp,

You know what I meant by 'challenge'. They're not doing in a respectful way; otherwise it'd be a discussion.

Most of you have hit it on the head, these kids are raised by people who don't understand science and think its fallibility is a flaw.

The other thing I've noticed is how when I talk about astronomy, many people instantly want to jump on their religious beliefs as if I'm trying to disprove their beliefs. I'm not; I'm just stating facts as we seem them today. I just wish I could have a good conversation about astronomy without someone foisting their religious preferences on me.

Anyways, good conversation about all of this.



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EFT
Vendor - Deep Space Products
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Raginar]
      #5657111 - 02/01/13 08:53 PM

I went to a talk last year by Brother Guy Consolmagno of the Vatican observatory here in Arizona. He a coauthor of the great book "Turn Left at Orion." He had some very interesting ways to look at the beginning of the universe in both a both comological and religious way. But there was some 20-something there who had clearly come just to challenge the speaker. Even my 15-year-old daughter thought the guy was a *BLEEP*.

I subsequently had Br. Guy come and give a talk for our club (I'm the vice president and have the responsibility of arranging speakers) and am having someone else from the Vatican observatory come this year.


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PaulEK
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: EFT]
      #5657254 - 02/01/13 10:18 PM

I've seen Brother Guy on The Colbert Report. He was pleasant and kind, and thoughtful. I don't agree with him on origins, but I think he'd be okay with that, and it wouldn't occur to me to challenge him at a forum where he was a guest, unless I was invited there to do so.

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PaulEK
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: PaulEK]
      #5657256 - 02/01/13 10:19 PM

(Not that I see me being invited somewhere to debate him.)

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Astrojensen
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5658297 - 02/02/13 02:56 PM

http://zenpencils.com/comic/52-phil-plait-welcome-to-science/

Highly relevant comic (just this strip, though the rest of them are also brilliant, just not relevant for the ongoing discussion here).


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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PaulEK
professor emeritus
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5658310 - 02/02/13 03:04 PM

Yes, I like Zen Pencils! (But that tripod in the last panel is going to make the girl's intro to science less enjoyable. )

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csrlice12
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Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: PaulEK]
      #5658477 - 02/02/13 04:44 PM

Hey, at least its not pointed towards the ground.......

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Glen A W
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Reged: 07/04/08

Loc: WEST VIRGINIA USA
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: droid]
      #5658677 - 02/02/13 06:23 PM

I go to college now, though I am older than the other students. Kids these days are very dumb in science. They are also incredibly social. They struggle constantly with math and physics, though they are not unintelligent. Many of them are also functionally illiterate, though they can read. They also can do nothing alone.

I cleaned up my college's scopes and attempted to stir up interest but found none - absolutely none. And then if someone does want a look they are disappointed.

The great thing about astronomy is that the 1/30 of 1% who are cut out for it will find it. I am certain about that. And so, it stays a beautiful topic and interest for us. If you got even 1% of the population involved, it would change so much it would not be any good any more. Call me a snob or elitist, but it's true. GW


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PaulEK
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 05/25/08

Loc: Wisconsin
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Glen A W]
      #5658738 - 02/02/13 07:05 PM

Glen:

I'm sorry to hear what you say. I work in a small town in Minnesota, which has a branch of the state university system. They have an active astronomy club, mostly made up of students. It's not big, but neither is the college.

I'm also on the school board where I live (across the border in Wisconsin), and though I'd agree that lots of kids are not very good at science, I find that lots of others are. When I was in high school and college 30-35 years ago, I found things pretty much the same. And looking further back, until the 1940s most Americans didn't graduate from high school. The high school graduation rate is still steadily climbing (currently at 86% for folks 25 and over). Our culture has always been, overall, anti-intellectual, but I haven't experienced an overall decline in the ability or desire of kids. Kids are immature, and the older I get, the more I find their foolishness apparent, but when I think about it, I really see no difference between them and me at that age. Boy oh boy, did I do some stupid stuff!

My son, an admittedly very bright 6th-grader, is learning math now that I didn't study until 11th grade (so are 17 others in his middle school's sixth grade). He's always been challenged by his teachers to think and learn as much as he can, and so have his peers. (And I'm not saying that because I was on the school board; I was elected less than a year ago.) That's very different from my overcrowded classes in the 1960s, where I was just another of the 36 or so kids who did the exact same work as everyone else in the room, even though it bored me to distraction.

All of this said, I was the Teaching Assistant for the English Department at my very small college in rural Minnesota in the early 1980s, and I was blown away by the lack of writing skills of some of the students I tutored. Some were not capable of writing even simple sentences, even though they could speak very clearly. Most, though, wrote just fine, and some were brilliant. I just, understandably, spent most of my time with the poor writers.


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bouffetout
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 11/21/12

Loc: Canada
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5659963 - 02/03/13 01:08 PM

I did my high school in a small private school That i liked very much...So in my will ,it says that I leave all my astronomy and astrophotography equipment to that school with a letter ,I didn't yet wrote ( I will very soon ),with instructions ,internet sites ,and local astronomy clubs contacts so that experienced amateur astronomers and astrophotographers will coach them on how to use the equipment. hopefuly that will spark interest from teachers as well as the kids.
Maxx


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PaulEK
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 05/25/08

Loc: Wisconsin
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: bouffetout]
      #5660300 - 02/03/13 04:27 PM

Maxx:

Great idea!

I'm starting on a plan to work with my school district to build an observatory on a piece of land they own, the School Forest, where kids do nature study. There's a restored prairie, a few acres of open land surrounded by forest. A small roll-off roof building would fit in nicely. I would donate some of my equipment, and put some more on loan to the district, to put the building in immediate use.


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bouffetout
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 11/21/12

Loc: Canada
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: PaulEK]
      #5660356 - 02/03/13 05:01 PM

Quote:

Maxx:

Great idea!

I'm starting on a plan to work with my school district to build an observatory on a piece of land they own, the School Forest, where kids do nature study. There's a restored prairie, a few acres of open land surrounded by forest. A small roll-off roof building would fit in nicely. I would donate some of my equipment, and put some more on loan to the district, to put the building in immediate use.



Glad you like the idea. Your idea is very good too...Congrats !


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starrancher
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 06/09/09

Loc: Northern Arizona
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5662069 - 02/04/13 04:22 PM

Quote:

They are remaking Cosmos. I wonder why. It's Fox, even, doing the remake. PBS did the original. How's that for contrast?

I doubt that they'd bother unless they felt that there would be an audience for it, and they could make a buck. I also applaud them for finally branching out into non-fiction. A first for Fox, I'm pretty sure.

- Jim




Your not Fox bashing are you Jim ? One might think you'd be advocating MSNBC as being a fact based broadcast .


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starrancher
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 06/09/09

Loc: Northern Arizona
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: oo_void]
      #5662073 - 02/04/13 04:26 PM

How about those FortyNiners !!!

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csrlice12
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 05/22/12

Loc: Denver, CO
Re: You want cheaper equipment? Another perspective. new [Re: starrancher]
      #5662254 - 02/04/13 06:22 PM

Yea, they lost despite Baltimore's worst effort......

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