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Equipment Discussions >> Equipment

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Sarkikos
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Should I Get Rid of the Telrad?
      #5647645 - 01/28/13 09:26 AM

I use a Telrad on my 10" Dob. But I haven't drunken the Telrad Kool-Aid. I also have eight Brandons, though I don't consider myself a Brandonista.

I don't think Telrads are perfect. They are bigger and bulkier than they need to be. The length could easily be cut in half. Some users have actually done this - cut their in Telrad in half to save space on the OTA. Sounds like a good project to me.

One negative consequence of reducing the length of the Telrad, is that it would no longer fit on a riser. Which brings up another fault of this finder: it is too low to the OTA. Without a riser, it can be uncomfortable to get close enough to the OTA to sight through the Telrad, and you risk bumping the scope.

Also, Telrads dew too easily. The Telrad is the first thing to dew over on my scopes. There is no good solution to the Telrad's dew problem - I've tried them all, I believe - except to stick a special dew buster prong under the view screen and make sure the battery is strong and fully charged.

Some Telrad owners use the three concentric circles to help them star hop to objects. This always seemed more trouble than it's worth. You need to find out the distance between a star or asterism and the object, and then figure out the number of star hops of which circle to get there. This can involve star hopping across many degrees of empty space - so to speak - with no easily visible stars to delimit the hops. For some objects, you might need to do this several times.

Do I really want to put this much effort into planning and executing a star hop? No, not really. So I don't. I like to "plan" my star hops on-the-fly. I find the naked-eye star nearest to the object, sight on that star with the Telrad, and then star hop with my 15x70 optical finder, referencing a good printed atlas or StarSafari on my tablet. IME, this is much easier than trying to star hop with a naked-eye, 1x finder.

On the other hand, I do use the Telrad for simple geometrical triangulations. For instance, M101 is at one apex of an equilateral triangle with Alkaid and Mizar toward Draco. Put the bull's eye of the Telrad in that position, and it will be close to M101. But I could do this with a QuickFinder or Red-Dot. A Telrad with its fancy triple-circle bullseye isn't necessary.

I'm experimenting with replacing the Telrad with a straight-through true erect-image optical finder. I've never liked the fact that the Telrad can only show me naked-eye stars. For a long time I've thought that a straight-through erect-image non-reversing finder with a little magnification would be the ideal replacement for a Telrad. Such a finder might even do the job of both a Telrad and an optical finder for star hopping.

Recently I bought an ES 8x50 Erect Image Illuminated Finder. It is straight-through and does not reverse the image. I'm hoping this will be the ideal replacement for my Telrad.

Mike


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Doug Culbertson
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5647794 - 01/28/13 10:52 AM

I use a Telrad on both of my dobs, and a Rigel Quickfinder on my refractor. In all honesty, I have always felt that the Telrad is just about the most useless tool for starhopping ever created, for the reasons that you already laid out.

Nowadays I only use the Telrad to align my DSCs, as it's pretty convenient for quickly aligning my alignment stars with the telescope. Once that's done I turn off the Telrad until I decide to look at Jupiter or Saturn.

FWIW, of late I have found that on my ASGT mounted refractor I prefer a RACI finder over the Rigel for doing my alignments and calibration for gotos because it is more convenient than the Rigel.

If I still starhopped, I would have abandoned the Telrad long ago.


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Tom Polakis
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5647862 - 01/28/13 11:21 AM

Quote:

I don't think Telrads are perfect... The length could easily be cut in half.

Which brings up another fault of this finder: it is too low to the OTA. Without a riser, it can be uncomfortable to get close enough to the OTA to sight through the Telrad, and you risk bumping the scope...

Some Telrad owners use the three concentric circles to help them star hop to objects. This always seemed more trouble than it's worth.

Do I really want to put this much effort into planning and executing a star hop? No, not really. So I don't. I like to "plan" my star hops on-the-fly. I find the naked-eye star nearest to the object, sight on that star with the Telrad, and then star hop with my 15x70 optical finder, referencing a good printed atlas or StarSafari on my tablet. IME, this is much easier than trying to star hop with a naked-eye, 1x finder.





Sorry for chopping up your post. Agreed that Telrads are anything but perfect. As you point out, they are too long and too low. If you don't care for the three rings, the high-profile Rigel Quickfinder seems like it would be the preferred option. Oh, and thanks for referring to it as a "1x finder rather than the dreaded "zero power," which would shrink the universe to a singularity.

I don't plan star hops, either, but I would defend the bullseye circles as being much more useful than a single circle. If the bullseye rings had an arbitrary size, they would have limited usefulness, but the 1/2, 2, and 4 degree diameters are great for comparing to a chart with a grid. I have a pretty good feel for angles on the sky by now, and those diameters are just about perfectly designed.

I agree that a combination of a 1x and a low-power finder is the way to go. It will be interesting to learn how you fare using a finderscope with very low magnification. Something with a 15-degree field (4x or so?) that goes to magnitude 8 or 9 under a dark sky might be enough to really improve matters.

Tom


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RAKing
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5647871 - 01/28/13 11:24 AM

Mike,

I use both a Telrad and a RACI finder for star-hopping. The Telrad is faster to get me to the 'hood, then the RACI takes over. I use an 11mm Nagler T6 in my RACI because it gives me the same FOV in the SV50 as the outer ring of the Telrad.

If you are good enough working with plastic to shorten your Telrad, shortening the riser should not be an issue. I haven't shortened my Telrad, but I have disassembled my risers and rebuilt them to better suit my needs. They are plastic and glue or epoxy works fine.

Cheers,

Ron


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beatlejuice
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5647872 - 01/28/13 11:24 AM

Mike,
Quote:

They are bigger and bulkier than they need to be.




Whether it needs to be or not, I'm not sure, but this is compensated for by its light weight.



Quote:

The length could easily be cut in half. Some users have actually done this - cut their in Telrad in half to save space on the OTA. Sounds like a good project to me.




There is plenty of room on a 10" or larger dob. It may look odd, but do you really need more room?

Quote:

Without a riser, it can be uncomfortable to get close enough to the OTA to sight through the Telrad, and you risk bumping the scope.




This is certainly true, but the fact is that risers are available, inexpensive and they work.
Also, I don't see how a straight through finder will get you much higher off the tube then the telrad without a riser.

Quote:

Also, Telrads dew too easily. The Telrad is the first thing to dew over on my scopes. There is no good solution to the Telrad's dew problem - I've tried them all, I believe




Yes they do dew easily. I just wipe it off with a small cloth that I keep handy. Starman1(Don) says he wipes it off with his fingers! The telrad dew shield helps a bit between uses but wiping it off works for me.

Methods of use probably depend more on how dark your skies are more than anything else. I just like it as a pointer to get me to a starting point for using my finder ( at times a difficult process under light polluted skies). Under darker skies it really comes into its own allowing you to often go directly from telrad to your low power eyepiece.

I am curious about a straight through right side up finder. I did't know you could get one.

Trying to re-invent the Telrad has been going on for many years and as far as I am concerned, I like it the way it is.

Eric


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Doug Culbertson]
      #5647873 - 01/28/13 11:24 AM

Doug,

Quote:

I use a Telrad on both of my dobs, and a Rigel Quickfinder on my refractor. In all honesty, I have always felt that the Telrad is just about the most useless tool for starhopping ever created, for the reasons that you already laid out.




Thank you. My sentiments exactly. I was concerned that I might only receive posts that claim the Telrad is the greatest advancement in astronomy since the sextant. Sometimes I think the Telradistas are greater fanboys than the Brandonistas. I can say that since I have a Telrad and eight Brandons.

There is an inherent contradiction in using a Telrad to star hop. If you're at a fairly light-polluted site, how are you supposed to star hop with a Telrad from a bright star to your intended object with no naked-eye stars in the intervening space? How do you know when you've moved the telescope the distance of a Telrad circle? There are no visible stars to delimit each move. Not intuitively obvious and impractical in actual use.

On the other hand, if you are at a dark site with plenty of naked-eye stars, why do you need to star hop with the Telrad? Just point it at the visible star or asterism closest to the object and then star hop with a magnifying optical finder. It just makes more sense.

As I've said, the only exception to this protocol is when there is an easy and obvious geometrical triangulation with the Telrad available for the object. And that is often not the case. Even when the geometry is there, a short star hop with the optical finder is usually necessary.

Mike


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Jim Rosenstock
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5647960 - 01/28/13 12:02 PM

The Telrad is a classic--big and clunky, indeed, but a good match for the big, clunky home-made Dobs they first went on...

Two of the biggest "Aha!" moments in my years of observing were the first time I used a Dob, and the first time I used a Telrad. I had found my comfort zone!

I use Rigel finders now, but must acknowledge Telrad as the original classic!

Jim


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droid
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5647971 - 01/28/13 12:06 PM

Mike; being only being a middle of the road star hopper, I just love the telrad, of course it isnt perfect, not much of my equipment is, but with all my charts and at least one of my books being based on the telrad I would be lost honestly.
I also use a 50mm finder, and plan to use an 80mm finder, on the scope with the telrad, use the telrad to get close, finder to fine tune and then the main scope.All my scopes have mounting plates from which my two telrads are shared.
All that said, thats me, and may not be for everyone.

To each his own, live and let live, and all that.


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nevy
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: droid]
      #5648088 - 01/28/13 12:50 PM

There is a way to keep the telrad dew free all night even in the worst dewy conditions, it requires no batteries and is very light and it can be put on and took off in about 2 seconds , when I get time I'll post a picture of it.

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Don Trinko
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: nevy]
      #5648109 - 01/28/13 12:58 PM

For my dob I prefer the telrad. Yes there are some negatives but it is the one I use the most.
I do like GLP's but when its anywhere near cold or light they do not work. All IMO; Don t.


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rmollise
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Don Trinko]
      #5648125 - 01/28/13 01:07 PM

The Telrad isn't perfect--just better than anything else.

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t.r.
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Don Trinko]
      #5648128 - 01/28/13 01:07 PM

I hate the Telrad! I have turned down the purchase of used scopes because it was mounted to them. In my mind it devalues them. I think for dobs they may be the right choice, but when I see these slapped on top other scope types...I cringe!!! Just me and my own hang-up!

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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Tom Polakis]
      #5648166 - 01/28/13 01:21 PM

Tom,

Quote:

Sorry for chopping up your post.




No need to apologize. What I don't like is when someone quotes an entire lengthy post, especially when they only comment on one or two points. Are they afraid of being accused of taking something out of context? Just quote what you need to and don't worry about it. That's what I do.

Quote:

Agreed that Telrads are anything but perfect. As you point out, they are too long and too low. If you don't care for the three rings, the high-profile Rigel Quickfinder seems like it would be the preferred option.




Yes, especially if you're going to mount it on a smaller scope. I wouldn't be surprised if someone hasn't mounted a Telrad on an ST80 or binoculars!

But I have mounted the Quickfinder on my ST80, my 90mm Mak and even my 150mm Mak. It can get to the point, though, where you're mounting a finder on a finder. For example, at one time I had the Quickfinder on my 25x100 binos. Finally, I took it off. I realized that I could find objects just as easily by just looking through the binoculars.

Quote:

I don't plan star hops, either, but I would defend the bullseye circles as being much more useful than a single circle. If the bullseye rings had an arbitrary size, they would have limited usefulness, but the 1/2, 2, and 4 degree diameters are great for comparing to a chart with a grid. I have a pretty good feel for angles on the sky by now, and those diameters are just about perfectly designed.




The rings haven't been so useful for me. I have a good idea of the relative field size of my optical finder versus the layout on printed charts, or on SkySafari for Android. Then I just look for simple asterisms on-the-fly, star hopping from one to the next until I reach the desired object. I don't spend much time at all looking through the Telrad.

Quote:

I agree that a combination of a 1x and a low-power finder is the way to go. It will be interesting to learn how you fare using a finderscope with very low magnification. Something with a 15-degree field (4x or so?) that goes to magnitude 8 or 9 under a dark sky might be enough to really improve matters.




The ES finder is an 8x50. The total FOV is 6 degrees. Like a Telrad, the illuminated reticle has an open center so it won't mask the object. The reticle has markings for for 1.5, 3, and 4.5 degrees. For my purposes, about a 4x or 5x finder might have been better, but I'll see how this one works for me.

Up to now I've had the Telrad and a 15x70 optical finder on my 10" Dob when I go to a dark site. I plan on using the ES 8x50 straight-through as a direct replacement for the Telrad. I'll use the ES 8x50 in tandem with the 15x70. The 15x70 is a RACI, and is a nice RFT as well as star hopper. Also, since it is a RACI, it's much more comfortable to use for longer star hops and for a low-power wide-view look at an object than is a straight-through finder.

I'm also thinking about mounting the ES 8x50 by itself on my C6. It is my medium size grab-n-go for at home. The ES 8x50 would take the place of an optical finder for double stars and brighter DSO. And it would serve the purpose of a QuickFinder/Red-Dot for centering the C6 on the Moon and bright planets. It's nice to have more than 1x when refinding a planet with a mount that doesn't track.

Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: RAKing]
      #5648187 - 01/28/13 01:30 PM

Ron,

Quote:

I use both a Telrad and a RACI finder for star-hopping. The Telrad is faster to get me to the 'hood, then the RACI takes over.




Yes, a straight-through - whether red-ring/dot or optical - is much easier than a RACI for initially sighting a star for the beginning of a star hop or for centering the scope on a planet or the Moon. But after that, the optical RACI is better and more comfortable for extended star hopping or low-power observation, of course.

Quote:

If you are good enough working with plastic to shorten your Telrad, shortening the riser should not be an issue. I haven't shortened my Telrad, but I have disassembled my risers and rebuilt them to better suit my needs. They are plastic and glue or epoxy works fine.




Plastic, foam core and such are easy materials to work with. It's the metal and wood that are not so good for me without a workshop or extensive tools.

I've already cut the middle section out of the base of my Telrad riser. A little hand saw made that easy enough. I did that so I could attach a shoe for the ES 8x50 between the two ends of the Telrad base. That would give me the option of using either the Telrad or the ES finder, until I determined which I liked better.

Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jim Rosenstock]
      #5648195 - 01/28/13 01:34 PM

Jim,

Quote:

I use Rigel finders now, but must acknowledge Telrad as the original classic!





Yes, it is a classic. Even if the ES finder replaces the Telrad for me, I might not sell the Telrad. I might still find a use for it on one of my scopes, especially if I cut it down to size. Besides, they are inexpensive new and don't sell for much used. Hardly worth the effort to sell it.

Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: rmollise]
      #5648197 - 01/28/13 01:35 PM

Rod,

Quote:

The Telrad isn't perfect--just better than anything else.




Give me time ... I'm working on that.


Mike


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Tom Polakis
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: t.r.]
      #5648220 - 01/28/13 01:42 PM Attachment (19 downloads)

Quote:

I hate the Telrad! I have turned down the purchase of used scopes because it was mounted to them. In my mind it devalues them. I think for dobs they may be the right choice, but when I see these slapped on top other scope types...I cringe!!!




Man, you'll really cringe when you learn that there's a Telrad on the 48" UK Schmidt at Siding Spring Observatory, and on the 60" at Mount Wilson, shown below. I have seen Telrads on other observatory scopes, and they are only installed for the case when the pointing is not established or working correctly.

Tom

Edited by Tom Polakis (01/28/13 01:42 PM)


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Don Trinko]
      #5648231 - 01/28/13 01:46 PM

Don,

Quote:

For my dob I prefer the telrad. Yes there are some negatives but it is the one I use the most.
I do like GLP's but when its anywhere near cold or light they do not work. All IMO; Don t.





Yep, I went through a period when I was captivated by the idea of mounting GLPs on my scopes and just having that beautiful green beam point to the object. Neat. You don't even have to bend over to look through any viewer or eyepiece to do it. But I quickly discovered that at least 3/4 of the year it gets too cold here at night for the GLPs to work. Went through several GLPs, GLP mounts and related gizmos before I gave up on the idea. But I still have GLPs mounted on my 4.5" Ball Scope and my 3" FirstScope reflector. I take out those scopes for hand-held, walk-about viewing in the summer.

Now I mostly use GLPs to show my daughter, wife and other newbies the location of constellations and objects in the sky. And, of course, that's only during the warm summer nights when the *** things will work.


Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Tom Polakis]
      #5648237 - 01/28/13 01:48 PM

Tom,

Quote:

Man, you'll really cringe when you learn that there's a Telrad on the 48" UK Schmidt at Siding Spring Observatory, and on the 60" at Mount Wilson, shown below. I have seen Telrads on other observatory scopes, and they are only installed for the case when the pointing is not established or working correctly.




Did someone stick a Telrad on that big telescope as a joke? If any scope needs goto, well ....


Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: t.r.]
      #5648247 - 01/28/13 01:52 PM

t.r.,

Quote:

I hate the Telrad! I have turned down the purchase of used scopes because it was mounted to them. In my mind it devalues them. I think for dobs they may be the right choice, but when I see these slapped on top other scope types...I cringe!!! Just me and my own hang-up!




I don't think I'd pass up a good scope at a good price because the owner stuck on a Telrad. But I'd be ready with the dental floss and Goop Gone as soon as I got my hands on it.

My 150mm Rumak came with a Telrad base.

Mike


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rmollise
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5648360 - 01/28/13 02:32 PM

Quote:

Rod,

Quote:

The Telrad isn't perfect--just better than anything else.




Give me time ... I'm working on that.


Mike




Go got it!


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beatlejuice
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5648375 - 01/28/13 02:39 PM

Quote:

I wouldn't be surprised if someone hasn't mounted a Telrad on an ST80 or binoculars!




Guilty, I am a 'Telradista'



Eric


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t.r.
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: rmollise]
      #5648378 - 01/28/13 02:40 PM

Quote:

Man, you'll really cringe when you learn that there's a Telrad on the 48" UK Schmidt at Siding Spring Observatory, and on the 60" at Mount Wilson




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6GuEswXOXo


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demiles
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: t.r.]
      #5648402 - 01/28/13 02:52 PM

As you may know Mike I use the Telrad exclusively on my Dob,no optical finder for me. Having to add two more dew heaters and more battery power for the optical is the only reason I don't use one. FYI I have no issues finding objects/star hopping, red dots are all I ever used. I do use the Rigel finder on small refractor.

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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Tom Polakis]
      #5648547 - 01/28/13 03:52 PM

Quote:

If you don't care for the three rings, the high-profile Rigel Quickfinder seems like it would be the preferred option.




The Rigel appears to be taller than the Telrad but if you measure the height of the reticule, they are within 1/8" of each other.

I have 4 scopes with Telrads, they all have magnifying finders as well. When the skies are dark and clear, I use the Telrad most of the time. It's particularly handy for identifying unknown objects.

I suspect the ES finder won't be a replacement for the Telrad. The TFoV of the Telrad is huge.

Jon

Edited by Jon Isaacs (01/28/13 03:56 PM)


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mountain monk
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5648649 - 01/28/13 04:35 PM

I tried to love the Telrad; I failed. The mounting plate is still on my Dob because when it is really cold, below zero, it keeps on working like a champ when everything else gets too sluggish (Sky Commander) or fails (GLP). I do use lithium batteries.

Dark skies.

Jack


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: mountain monk]
      #5648736 - 01/28/13 05:12 PM

Quote:

I tried to love the Telrad; I failed. The mounting plate is still on my Dob because when it is really cold, below zero, it keeps on working like a champ when everything else gets too sluggish (Sky Commander) or fails (GLP). I do use lithium batteries.

Dark skies.

Jack




It took me a while to warm up to the Telrad. I had a few scopes with Telrads and I replaced them with magnifying finders and I was happy with that. Then I purchased a scope with both a Telrad and a magnifying finder and learned how to use the Telrad effectively because I had the magnifying finder as a backup.

These days, unless the scope has a short enough focal length that it can serve as a magnifying finder, Telrads are still accompanied by magnifying finders but the Telrads do most of the work when the skies are dark.

Jon


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: beatlejuice]
      #5648778 - 01/28/13 05:30 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I wouldn't be surprised if someone hasn't mounted a Telrad on an ST80 or binoculars!




Guilty, I am a 'Telradista'



Eric




Yes, I've seen this syndrome before ...


Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: demiles]
      #5648804 - 01/28/13 05:39 PM

Dwane,

Quote:

As you may know Mike I use the Telrad exclusively on my Dob,no optical finder for me. Having to add two more dew heaters and more battery power for the optical is the only reason I don't use one. FYI I have no issues finding objects/star hopping, red dots are all I ever used. I do use the Rigel finder on small refractor.




Come on now, even though you don't use an optical finder, I know you use something besides the Telrad to star hop. Don't you have SkySafari on a SmartPhone or other gizmo? Then you put in a nice wide-field low-power finder eyepiece to star hop before you go to a higher power EP? The only difference is that I use my optical finder as the finder.

Telrads might be nice, but they can't do it all.


Mike


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demiles
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5648820 - 01/28/13 05:46 PM

Yes I use Sky Safari on a smartphone, with its telrad circles it makes finding things easy. The longest focal length EP I have is 22mm and it hasn't been used in but made 3-4 times last year. One night I was finding objects at 380x because I was too lazy to remove the barlow under the 14mm, it was cold that night. My 14mm is my finder EP.

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mountain monk
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: demiles]
      #5648862 - 01/28/13 06:03 PM

Jon,

Well, we both have NP-101s and 31mm Naglers, and with those you barely need a finder. I've even used an old cardboard tube (the remains of a roll of TP) when my laser battery failed. I find that a GLP makes everything fast any easy. With the Dob...well, I am still learning and I will use anything that helps, so I won't be getting rid of the Telrad anytime soon.

Dark skies.

Jack


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mikey cee
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: t.r.]
      #5648882 - 01/28/13 06:16 PM

Quote:

I hate the Telrad! I have turned down the purchase of used scopes because it was mounted to them. In my mind it devalues them. I think for dobs they may be the right choice, but when I see these slapped on top other scope types...I cringe!!! Just me and my own hang-up!


I'm of the same belief. They add nothing to a scope's looks especially classics. Only possible exception would be a dob. Mike

Edited by mikey cee (01/28/13 06:21 PM)


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Jaimo!
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: mikey cee]
      #5648992 - 01/28/13 07:08 PM

I have resisted using a telrad for years, thinking they look klunky... But then I got one. Used in conjunction with my Stellarvue F50 RACI on the Z12, I don't have much trouble finding many things. I find it very useful.

Also you can leave it on for months and the batteries will still be working... If not, it is usually easy to find an AA lying around somewhere.
Jaimo!


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: demiles]
      #5649050 - 01/28/13 07:35 PM

Quote:

Yes I use Sky Safari on a smartphone, with its telrad circles it makes finding things easy. The longest focal length EP I have is 22mm and it hasn't been used in but made 3-4 times last year. One night I was finding objects at 380x because I was too lazy to remove the barlow under the 14mm, it was cold that night. My 14mm is my finder EP.




Going from Telrad and Sky Safari straight to star hopping at 380x is pretty impressive. I have done something similar except I have a good optical finder as intermediary. Usually, though, my Baader Zoom is in the main scope so I can avoid switching eyepieces.

Mike


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Mike B
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: mountain monk]
      #5649078 - 01/28/13 07:47 PM Attachment (4 downloads)

Quote:

when it is really cold, below zero, it keeps on working like a champ when everything else gets too sluggish (Sky Commander) or fails (GLP)




In discussing this with the owner of Z-bolt Lasers (John), he supposedly has a new GLP out that handles the cold better... he's had requests for such from MORE than just the astro community.

Perhaps this, plus some type of quick-release cover for between-use insulation, might enable the year-round use of the GLP. I totally agree, tho- the Z-Bolt i use is so quick, easy, and intuitive, that i don't generally even use an optical finder; the GLP, good charts, DSC's, and 2/3 degree in the main scope, and i'm rockin'!

Guess i should add to that list *typically mild night-time weather*... which i am VERY thankful for- make no mistake about THAT!

Yes, i used a Telrad for a brief period... in between the since-forever optical finder period, and now the GLP phase. In fact, my GLP rides on a base-plate that mounts in my scope's Telrad shoe. The Telrad was okay... in darker skies where there were more stars visible to work with. Still, i was generally unimpressed. Even rigged mine with the pulse-mode & dew-hood (yeah, they dew over faster than ANYthing else on the whole scope!)... and now it sits in a box.


Personally, i'd be makin' efforts toward getting a cold-weather GLP functional... but that's me. YMMV.


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5649081 - 01/28/13 07:49 PM

Jon,

Quote:

I suspect the ES finder won't be a replacement for the Telrad. The TFoV of the Telrad is huge.




One of the great features of both the Telrad and the ES finder is that they are straight-through erect-image non-reversing. The natural orientation is the easiest and simplest for getting one's initial bearings in the sky and beginning the process of star hopping to the intended object. And because of the natural orientation, both Telrad and ES finder have a large surrounding skyview beyond the window or eyepiece that blends into the view of the finder. The advantage of the ES finder is that the section of sky shown in the eyepiece is magnified and shows dimmer stars than can be see with the naked eye - or Telrad.

I have mounted 6x30 straight-through finders on my scopes when all I want to do is observe the Moon and bright planets. These little finders have an inverted image, but that's OK when the object is bright and easy. All I need to do is get it in the crosshairs and quickly switch to the main scope. For non-tracking scopes, these finders are superior to a Telrad/Red-Dot for lunar/planets, because the magnifying finder helps to recenter the lunar feature or planet when a high-power eyepiece is in the focuser.

However, when I'm observing DSO, I want that initial aid for star hopping to have the natural orientation. For me, this view is easiest when consulting printed star charts. It's also easier when using software like SkySafari with my Dobs. First, I have SkySafari in the natural orientation which matches the naked eye view and the view through Telrad or ES finder. It also matches the view in my 15x70 optical finder, which has an erecting Amici prism. When I look in the focuser of my main scope, all I need do is turn the tablet or star chart upside down to match the view in my Dob. I don't need to keep switching orientation settings in SkySafari.

Of course, when I use the ES finder with my C6, that will all change.

Mike


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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5649185 - 01/28/13 08:25 PM

There are several good telrad laminated finder charts that make it very easy to find DSO:
1. Messier Objects by Skyspot/Brent Watson
2. Overlooked Objects by Skyspot/Brent Watson
3. 300 best DSOs
4. Hershel 400
5. Off the Beaten Path by Jim Beliega
6. Muslitle DSOs four volume for each seacon by Jum Beliega

Plus others

With 3 circles it is easy to find some geometrical arrangement to allign scope (and remember some for the longterm also).


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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5649204 - 01/28/13 08:37 PM

Even with dew or ice I can still use the telrad. Since we have two eyes I use one eye looking at the telrad circles and the other eye looking at the location in the sky (bypassing the telrad) and the brain superimposes both images, hence you can still use it to find objects. I only stop observing when all eyepieces dew or ice up (or I get tired or cold).

My 8x50 find almost always dews up and then I can't use it. 8x50 finder is only good when I can see object in it at 8x.

Telrad is good anytime.


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Starman1
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5649224 - 01/28/13 08:46 PM

Comments on my favorite finders:
Telrad
I have one on my 12.5" and on my 5" Mak. The ultra-wide field of view, the ability to see faint stars through the reticle image, the 3-circle calibrated bullseye, the ultra-long life of the batteries, the ease of getting it aligned to the scope because of its longer length (when installing), its lightweight character, and the availability of replacement parts all make this the best 1-power finderscope, in my opinion. I don't find it too close to the tube--I find it perfect. It's also usable as a right-angle finder on mag.3 stars or brighter (perfect for planets and bright stars like Rigel and Sirius--the sky is reflected and the reticle seen directly (requires dimmest setting).
Issues: 1. looks cheap.

TeleVue StarBeam
Like the Telrad, and unlike other red dot finders, you can see extremely faint stars through the lens. The red dot gets dim enough, is calibrated in size, the finish and machining match the quality of high-end scopes like TeleVue's, the ease of alignment beats the heck out of the Telrad, and the blinker is nice. Slightly smaller field of view than the Telrad.
Issues: 1.too close to the tube--closer than the Telrad. 2.short battery life if you accidentally leave finder on.3.Price.(but it is well made).

Explore Scientific 8x50 straight-through correct image (STCI) finder.
The true field is wider than the claimed 6 degrees. The straight through nature makes it possible to easily aim the scope since the eye is looking in the same direction it's pointing. The image is fairly clean except out near the edge. The quality is high and it looks good enough for an expensive scope. The reticle's center circle is large enough to see some objects through it and has tick marks at intervals (nice).
Issues: 1.short eye relief. 2.Too close to the tube with the provided mounting.3. No mounts for flat finder boards. 4. Illuminated reticle WAY WAY too bright on dimmest setting (fixed with two drops of dark brown fingernail polish on the LED). 5.Short battery life in illuminator. 6.Tightening the focus retention ring forces the front lens out of focus, requiring several tries to achieve focus. I fixed this with plumber's tape on lens focus threads to increase friction and decrease slop, eliminated the focus retention ring, and now focus with no retention ring necessary.

I've used all 3 finders, and like them all. And, I recommend them all. I had a RACI finder on my Maksutov and got rid of it. RACI finders are just too difficult to aim, though they work fine if used in conjunction with some form of red dot 1-power finder.


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smallscopefanLeo
sage
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5649540 - 01/29/13 12:07 AM

Tsk, tsk. So much anti-Telrad blasphemy in here (sips some more Telraid)
I just ordered my third one two days ago ... I'll be Telradding till I die


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csa/montana
Den Mama
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5649542 - 01/29/13 12:08 AM

I would never get rid of my Telrad! I absolutely love using it, with my Telrad charts. I've tried straight-thru finders, and the pain in my neck made me quickly get rid of them. My Telrad is on a short riser, along with a RACI, and a 5mW laser. I use the Telrad almost exclusively, while observing!

Big & clunky? Yep; but my 16" dob is no dainty princess!


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David Knisely
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5649603 - 01/29/13 01:22 AM Attachment (8 downloads)

Should you get rid of the Telrad? You can if you want to. It's as simple as that. There is no good or bad about it if doing so fits your needs. As for me, I find that as the years go by, I am using the Telrad more than ever before, both alone and in combination with my 9x50 RACI finderscope. It is indeed fairly low to the scope's tube but not excessively so, as I can still look through it on my 14 inch Dob without much neck strain. Dew? I have the Astrosystems dew shield installed, and if it still somehow gets dewed-up, I just clear it off with a soft piece of cloth and go right on observing. I use the pattern-making ability of the 3-rings of the reticle to find faint non-naked eye targets as well as to step off extended star hops (one advantage the 3-rings have over the 2-rings of the Rigel Quickfinder). Is the Telrad a little bulky? Yes. Could it be made a little higher or better? Yup, it could. However, the plain truth is that as-is, the Telrad just plain WORKS! That is all I care about. Clear skies to you.

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rmollise
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5649778 - 01/29/13 07:13 AM

Quote:

Telrads might be nice, but they can't do it all.


Mike




Well they won't pour out the Rebel Yell at the end of the run, but under dark skies, a Telrad can get you bang on the money everytime.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5649779 - 01/29/13 07:15 AM

Quote:

One of the great features of both the Telrad and the ES finder is that they are straight-through erect-image non-reversing. The natural orientation is the easiest and simplest for getting one's initial bearings in the sky and beginning the process of star hopping to the intended object. And because of the natural orientation, both Telrad and ES finder have a large surrounding skyview beyond the window or eyepiece that blends into the view of the finder. The advantage of the ES finder is that the section of sky shown in the eyepiece is magnified and shows dimmer stars than can be see with the naked eye - or Telrad.




My Newtonians are always fitted with straight through finders, I well versed in keeping both eyes open to the first guide stars or a bright star or region. But once you are in the region, it's one eye only and that wide field view is lost.

The advantage of the Telrad is that you can accurately position the scope in relation to the wide field of view and quite often, that is more than sufficient to put a target that is invisible in a magnifying finder in the field of view.

For me, the optimal setup is both a Telrad and a Straight through magnifying finder... Only a straight through works too but the Telrad is about all I need if the skies are dark.

Jon


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5649823 - 01/29/13 08:10 AM

faackanders2,

Quote:

Even with dew or ice I can still use the telrad. Since we have two eyes I use one eye looking at the telrad circles and the other eye looking at the location in the sky (bypassing the telrad) and the brain superimposes both images, hence you can still use it to find objects. I only stop observing when all eyepieces dew or ice up (or I get tired or cold).




I can't do that. If the Telrad window is dewed over it is useless to me. I need to keep the dew strip prong under the Telrad window and set to high all night to prevent dewing. Otherwise I'll have to wipe off the window - front and back - every 15 minutes. Not a very efficient use of one's time.

Quote:

My 8x50 find almost always dews up and then I can't use it. 8x50 finder is only good when I can see object in it at 8x.




The best way to prevent dew on a finder is to attach a long dew/shield to the objective end and a dew strap to the eyepiece end. Problem solved

Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: rmollise]
      #5649836 - 01/29/13 08:19 AM

Don,

Quote:

Quote:

Telrads might be nice, but they can't do it all.


Mike




Well they won't pour out the Rebel Yell at the end of the run, but under dark skies, a Telrad can get you bang on the money everytime.




If mine gave out a Rebel Yell, I'd definitely get rid of it! I can't even stand those folks who like to play a guitar or chat loudly while I'm at the telescope.

I don't see a Telrad alone leading anyone to a dim stellar planetary, a faint galaxy in a galaxy cluster or a tiny loosely-scattered OC in the midst of a Milky Way star field. There are many objects up there that need the additional help of a printed star chart, Sky Safari, optical finder and/or a finder eyepiece to locate.

A Telrad will not do it all. It needs some help.

Mike


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5649839 - 01/29/13 08:25 AM

Quote:

I don't see a Telrad alone leading anyone to a dim stellar planetary, a faint galaxy in a galaxy cluster or a tiny loosely-scattered OC in the midst of a Milky Way star field. There are many objects up there that need the additional help of a printed star chart, Sky Safari, optical finder and/or a finder eyepiece to locate.

A Telrad will not do it all. It needs some help.

Mike




It's not much good without an observer, that's for sure. But I can put many a faint galaxy right in the eyepiece of my 16 inch with only the Telrad to guide me.

Jon


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5649847 - 01/29/13 08:31 AM

Don,

Quote:

2.Too close to the tube with the provided mounting.




Also, the mount provided with the ES has an Antares shoe. They should have gone with the ubiquitous Synta shoe. All my scopes have Synta shoes or Synta compatible shoes on the OTA - well, except for that new C6. That would have made it much easier to move the ES finder from one scope to another.

I really don't want to attach the provided Antares shoe to any of my scopes. I'll probably buy another finder mount and shoe that's compatible with the Synta format. That will also give me a chance to hunt for a mount that lifts the finder a bit higher off the OTA than the Antares mount that came with the ES.

Anyone have suggestions for a new finder mount?

For the C6, I might need to buy longer screws to fit a Synta shoe. I'll have to see. But I don't think I'll keep the Antares mount and shoe. They will be sold.

Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5649848 - 01/29/13 08:32 AM

Jon,

Quote:



It's not much good without an observer, that's for sure. But I can put many a faint galaxy right in the eyepiece of my 16 inch with only the Telrad to guide me.




So you are not using a finder eyepiece in the focuser? And you are doing all this from memory? No printed maps, goto, DSC, SkySafari or SkyTools?

Very impressive!


Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5649857 - 01/29/13 08:41 AM

Don,

Quote:

3. No mounts for flat finder boards.




I have no idea what this means. So it would probably not affect anthing that I'm doing.

Quote:

4. Illuminated reticle WAY WAY too bright on dimmest setting (fixed with two drops of dark brown fingernail polish on the LED).




I find the same problem with every illuminated eyepiece or finder I've ever had. I still have a little jar of red touch-up paint from a previous car that works great to tone down the lights.

Quote:

5.Short battery life in illuminator.




Shouldn't be any worse than the batteries in my other illuminated cross-hair/reticle gizmos. They seem to last at least a year for me. I can only go to my dark site once or twice a month, if I'm lucky. But when I'm there, I stay for about six hours, and the reticle light is on the entire time.

Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5649873 - 01/29/13 08:56 AM

So I definitely need to get a new 50mm finder mount compatible with Synta shoes before I can even test out the ES finder. I'm not going to bother drilling holes in any of my scopes for the included Antares shoe. The finder mount and shoe will be sold.

I tried fitting the ES finder into one of my 50mm three-screw mounts, but the finder is too wide.

So any suggestions for a mount? I want one that will lift the ES finder relatively high off the OTA, but I don't expect anything like a Telrad riser.

I was thinking about starting a new thread just on this topic. But a new Synta-style mount is essential to my using and testing the ES finder, so I'm asking in this thread first.

Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5649881 - 01/29/13 09:03 AM

This is one option:

ScopeStuff 50mm Finder Scope Rings

Quote:

$49.00 - #FRS8 - fits Synta/Orion type finder shoes, a common finder base for many imported scopes. Inside ring diameter is 2.4".




The stalk looks like it sits fairly high off the shoe.

Here is the Synta shoe:

Quote:

$22.00 - #RDPB - Orion/Synta Type Finder Mounting Shoe, 0.785" (20mm) Hole Spacing




Scope Stuff also has a Synta shoe that should fit my C6. I'll have to check the hole spacing. But no sense putting that Antares shoe on the C6.

Quote:

$26.00 - #RDPS - Orion/Synta Type Finder Mounting Shoe for SCTs, Hole Spacing up to 1.5"





By the way, that #FRQB mount and shoe on the ScopeStuff webpage looks like the Antares type that I received with the ES finder.

Mike


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okieav8r
I'd rather be flying!
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Reged: 03/01/09

Loc: Oklahoma!
Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5649884 - 01/29/13 09:04 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I don't see a Telrad alone leading anyone to a dim stellar planetary, a faint galaxy in a galaxy cluster or a tiny loosely-scattered OC in the midst of a Milky Way star field. There are many objects up there that need the additional help of a printed star chart, Sky Safari, optical finder and/or a finder eyepiece to locate.

A Telrad will not do it all. It needs some help.

Mike




It's not much good without an observer, that's for sure. But I can put many a faint galaxy right in the eyepiece of my 16 inch with only the Telrad to guide me.

Jon




Yep. I do it all the time.


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: okieav8r]
      #5649893 - 01/29/13 09:12 AM

Rex,

You're getting the same treatment as Jon:

So you are not using a finder eyepiece in the focuser? And you are doing all this from memory? No printed maps, goto, DSC, SkySafari or SkyTools?

Very impressive!


Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5649907 - 01/29/13 09:28 AM

Here is another 50mm finder mount. It looks sturdier and maybe higher than the one from ScopeStuff. But at $116, it's over twice as expensive. From the look of it, I'm not sure if it's compatible with the standard Synta shoe, though the description does say "fits Vixen Style, Synta and Celestron Dovetails."

Baader Planetarium Multipurpose Quick Release Finder Bracket

Mike


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Doug Culbertson
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5649909 - 01/29/13 09:30 AM

Quote:

Don,

Quote:

Quote:

Telrads might be nice, but they can't do it all.


Mike




Well they won't pour out the Rebel Yell at the end of the run, but under dark skies, a Telrad can get you bang on the money everytime.




If mine gave out a Rebel Yell, I'd definitely get rid of it! I can't even stand those folks who like to play a guitar or chat loudly while I'm at the telescope.






Mike,

Rebel Yell is a bourbon, not an actual yell.

Back to the Telrad discussion...


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csa/montana
Den Mama
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Loc: montana
Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5649920 - 01/29/13 09:43 AM

Quote:

A Telrad will not do it all. It needs some help.





That's why I always use Telrad charts. With this combination, finding objects is easy, & a lot of fun.

Another nice thing about the Telrad is the battery usage. I bought mine in 1995; and recently changed the batteries for the first time; not that the originals were dead, simply because I had extra batteries, & thought "what the heck". It's on from the moment I start observing, & is the last thing I turn off! The Telrad sits in my observatory year around, in heat & cold.


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DaveJ
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Doug Culbertson]
      #5649922 - 01/29/13 09:43 AM

Quote:

Rebel Yell is a bourbon, not an actual yell.




Actually, before it was a bourbon, it was an actual yell. Take a look here.


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Doug Culbertson]
      #5649923 - 01/29/13 09:43 AM

You can tell I'm strictly beer and wine. But if the Telrad poured out Rebel Yell, I might just keep it.


Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5649928 - 01/29/13 09:46 AM

Quote:

Quote:

A Telrad will not do it all. It needs some help.





That's why I always use Telrad charts. With this combination, finding objects is easy, & a lot of fun.




But I never found those Telrad charts much good for the smaller, dimmer and more difficult to star-hop objects. I usually need to supplement them with deeper star charts or Sky Safari. That's why I sold all my Telrad charts.

Mike


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csa/montana
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5649958 - 01/29/13 10:03 AM

There are many Telrad charts, many very detailed. I have the Messier bound Telrad charts, and don't use them at all, because they aren't detailed enough. The programs I use "MegaStars" & CdC, also can put the Telrad circle on your charts to print out. This can be detailed as much as you wish.

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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5649964 - 01/29/13 10:09 AM

Yes, Sky Safari has the option to display the Telrad rings, as well as various size FOV rings. But I seldom set Sky Safari to show any of these rings when I'm star hopping. For me, they mostly get in the way. I just get a feel for the image scale, look for asterisms and such, and start hopping.

Mike


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ckwastro
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5649992 - 01/29/13 10:23 AM

Quote:

It's on from the moment I start observing, & is the last thing I turn off!




Same here Carol. I think it's all in what we get used to using.

I will agree that the Telrad is not perfect. Its footprint is larger than necessary and it is close to the scope without a riser. However I prefer it over the Rigel as it's much easier to sight. I use a Rigel on my smaller scopes because of the weight, but even after several years of using the Rigel I still have to hunt for the reticle, while I have no problems with the Telrad. I also prefer the extra circle on the Telrad.

While some say they find it useless for star-hopping, I've found it to be very easy and invaluable for that task, especially when I can combine its use with an optical finder. Bottom line is there is no right or wrong answer here; we all use what works best for us.


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5650019 - 01/29/13 10:43 AM

Quote:

Here is another 50mm finder mount. It looks sturdier and maybe higher than the one from ScopeStuff. But at $116, it's over twice as expensive. From the look of it, I'm not sure if it's compatible with the standard Synta shoe, though the description does say "fits Vixen Style, Synta and Celestron Dovetails."

Baader Planetarium Multipurpose Quick Release Finder Bracket

Mike




That looks nice! Lumicon offers a nice CNC-machined 50mm finder bracket, but I don't know if the new company has them in stock or not. A call would find out.

By the way, my previous reference to a flat focuser board was referring to the way finders are usually mounted on wooden truss-tubed dob UTAs. There is a thin, flat, wooden strip to which the finder is mounted. The focuser is mounted to a similar board only wider, usually.

By the way, how do you get such a long life from illuminator batteries? Even at a low setting, I've never had an illuminator last an entire night if left on. Those SR44 batteries seem to last maybe 6 hours, tops. Batteries in the Telrad last years! I've even accidentally left the Telrad turned on for an entire month a few times and I'm still on the same batteries.


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5650041 - 01/29/13 10:55 AM

The Baader mount looks nice, but I don't know if it's worth $116 vs the ScopeStuff mount for $49. $116 is might pricey for a 50mm finder mount. I'm not even sure it's any taller than the ScopeStuff one. I don't like throwing more money at something in hopes that it's a better item. That rationale doesn't always work.

I notice, though, that the Synta and SCT finder shoes from ScopeStuff are somewhat overpriced. I'd get a better deal from Agena or HPS.

Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5650054 - 01/29/13 11:01 AM

Don,

Quote:

By the way, how do you get such a long life from illuminator batteries? Even at a low setting, I've never had an illuminator last an entire night if left on. Those SR44 batteries seem to last maybe 6 hours, tops. Batteries in the Telrad last years! I've even accidentally left the Telrad turned on for an entire month a few times and I'm still on the same batteries.




AFAIK, those are the batteries I'm using. I turn the reticle on for my Orion 20mm illuminated eyepiece in the 15x70 and leave it on for five or six hours. I seldom have to change it, maybe only once or twice a year. I do keep it on low, though. I don't remember them ever burning out over the course of one night. That sounds more like a GLP!

Mike


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csa/montana
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: ckwastro]
      #5650074 - 01/29/13 11:13 AM

Quote:

Bottom line is there is no right or wrong answer here; we all use what works best for us.




Kerry, exactly right!


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Mike B
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5650140 - 01/29/13 11:50 AM

Quote:

That sounds more like a GLP!




Oh really? My GLP, running a single CR123A, has been on the same battery for a lonnnnng time. But it's use is intermittent, at most.

YMOV


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okieav8r
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5650205 - 01/29/13 12:28 PM

Quote:

Rex,

You're getting the same treatment as Jon:

So you are not using a finder eyepiece in the focuser? And you are doing all this from memory? No printed maps, goto, DSC, SkySafari or SkyTools?

Very impressive!


Mike




Sure, I do a lot of it from memory. After all, I've been doing astronomy for over 30 years, so I've had plenty of time to get a lot targets down to memory. Not all of all of them mind you, nor even a majority, but a lot. Yes, I do use a finder eyepiece, but as often as not, the target is in the field of view when I look, and if it isn't, a nudge usually gets it there. I also use charts and Skytools3 for those objects that I haven't developed a good memory for and to plan/manage the evenings agenda.

For the ones I'm not that familiar with, I feel like I'm pretty good at looking at a chart, then mentally projecting that picture over to the Telrad to find the target. Anyhow, I just haven't felt a need to mount a RACI finder on my telescope. I do own one though. It's gathering dust in a closet.


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HenryV1598
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5650217 - 01/29/13 12:33 PM

I fully acknowledge that Telrad's aren't perfect. However, some of us get a lot of use from them. I have an 8" SCT. I piggyback an 80mm Refractor (its the Vernonscope/University Optics 11x80mm). I use that more for guiding and imaging, but if I happen to need a finder, it works. I have a 50mm right-angle finder, but I haven't bothered to actually attach it in ages. I mostly use the Telrad and the scope itself. The telrad helps me hit the alignment stars for my GoTo fast, and if not using GoTo, gets me in the general vicinity of the object I'm looking for. Usually getting it pretty close to the view through my 40mm eyepiece.

As with most things, I think it comes down to personal preference. Pot-a-to/pot-ah-to. If it helps you observe, then use it. If not, ditch it. If you don't want yours, feel free to send it to me! ;-)


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Mike B]
      #5650239 - 01/29/13 12:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:

That sounds more like a GLP!




Oh really? My GLP, running a single CR123A, has been on the same battery for a lonnnnng time. But it's use is intermittent, at most.

YMOV




... in California!


Mike


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5650279 - 01/29/13 01:05 PM

Quote:

Yes, Sky Safari has the option to display the Telrad rings, as well as various size FOV rings. But I seldom set Sky Safari to show any of these rings when I'm star hopping. For me, they mostly get in the way. I just get a feel for the image scale, look for asterisms and such, and start hopping.

Mike




Mike:

You have convinced me you should get rid of your Telrad.

The Telrad is a powerful tool, particularly if used with a program like Sky Safari which can show the Telrad circles against the starfield. But you do not inclined towards using it the way it was meant to be used so yeah, it only takes up space on your scope.

I am not parting with mine however.

Jon


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csa/montana
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5650305 - 01/29/13 01:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Yes, Sky Safari has the option to display the Telrad rings, as well as various size FOV rings. But I seldom set Sky Safari to show any of these rings when I'm star hopping. For me, they mostly get in the way. I just get a feel for the image scale, look for asterisms and such, and start hopping.

Mike




Mike:

You have convinced me you should get rid of your Telrad.

The Telrad is a powerful tool, particularly if used with a program like Sky Safari which can show the Telrad circles against the starfield. But you do not inclined towards using it the way it was meant to be used so yeah, it only takes up space on your scope.

I am not parting with mine however.

Jon




Agreed, and I'm also never parting with mine, either!


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5650316 - 01/29/13 01:21 PM

Jon,

I'm not sure that all the ways that the Telrad is used by observers agree with how it was "meant to be used," whatever that means. But does that matter? However I or anyone else use it is up to us.

IME & IMO, once I'm at a star or asterism from which I can star hop, the Telrad has served its purpose, no matter how anyone says that it was "meant to be used." A good optical finder does a much better job of guiding the telescope to the intended object. Obviously I can see dimmer stars and more of them in the optical finder than I could naked eye.

I have a suspicion that many observers who speak of using a "finder eyepiece" perhaps rely too heavily on the Telrad. Instead of a "finder eyepiece," I use an optical finder. Either way, the observer goes to something else when the Telrad has done all it can. I guess the Telrad can't do it all.

Mike


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5650385 - 01/29/13 01:54 PM

Quote:


IME & IMO, once I'm at a star or asterism from which I can star hop, the Telrad has served its purpose, no matter how anyone says that it was "meant to be used." A good optical finder does a much better job of guiding the telescope to the intended object. Obviously I can see dimmer stars and more of them in the optical finder than I could naked eye.




Like I said, I think you should get rid of your Telrad.

I have both optical finders and Telrad on my 4 Dobsonians. As far as how the Telrad was "meant to be used", I can say that one can use a Telrad to do far more accurate pointing than just finding the first guide star or pointing to an asterism. You apparently are not interested taking advantage of this most important capability so yeah it makes perfect sense to part with it.

You don't need to argue about whether an Optical finder is better than a Telrad, you know what works for you, you know how you like to observe. Just get rid of it.

Myself, the Telrad is the first line, if I can't find it with the Telrad, then comes the magnifying finder...

Jon


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ckwastro
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5650410 - 01/29/13 02:06 PM

Quote:

As far as how the Telrad was "meant to be used", I can say that one can use a Telrad to do far more accurate pointing than just finding the first guide star or pointing to an asterism...........Myself, the Telrad is the first line...




+1

I concur, if it's not going to be used in this way, and it just doesn't work for Mike's needs, then by all means he needs to dump it.

Edited by ckwastro (01/29/13 02:08 PM)


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5650462 - 01/29/13 02:34 PM

Jon,

Quote:

As far as how the Telrad was "meant to be used", I can say that one can use a Telrad to do far more accurate pointing than just finding the first guide star or pointing to an asterism.




But often not as accurate as a good optical finder. Certainly, a Telrad is all that's needed for many of the Messier objects, large and bright star clusters, brighter double stars and the like. But for small faint DSO, especially ones in a rich star field, an optical finder or "finder eyepiece" is a much more accurate tool. How could they not be more accurate than the naked eye? For such objects the Telrad is only the beginning.

In general, when I use the Telrad, the "first guide star" I point it to is the last naked eye star that is close to the location of the intended object. Otherwise, I might use geometrical triangulation. In either case, I then go to the optical finder. This makes the most sense. Why star hop when there are no more stars to see?

Quote:

Myself, the Telrad is the first line, if I can't find it with the Telrad, then comes the magnifying finder...




Up to now, at least, the Telrad has been the first line, also, and sometimes is all that is required. But lately since I've been looking for mostly small or dim objects toward the LM of my telescope, the Telrad alone is not enough. I'm sure there are many "easy" objects that I could locate with the Telrad alone, but I'd get tired of looking at them over and over.

Mike


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David Knisely
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5650468 - 01/29/13 02:39 PM

Sarkikos posted:

Quote:

I don't see a Telrad alone leading anyone to a dim stellar planetary, a faint galaxy in a galaxy cluster or a tiny loosely-scattered OC in the midst of a Milky Way star field. There are many objects up there that need the additional help of a printed star chart, Sky Safari, optical finder and/or a finder eyepiece to locate.




Well Mike, for ID-ing a single galaxy in a galaxy cluster, the Telrad alone might or might not be enough. In any case, the Telrad will definitely get the scope more than close enough to the target to allow it to be well within the field of a low to moderate power eyepiece. I remember the first time I saw a Telrad used properly on a "serious" telescope when one of our club members had one of the first 20 inch f/5 Obsession Dobs at our observing site (ZLM 6.0 to 6.6 typically). I was kind of shocked to see that the only finder he had on that monster was a Telrad! I had some serious doubts about the Telrad and what he could find with it, but in point of fact, he was running rings around me with my scope on its German equatorial mount and its 8x50 straight-through finderscope. He was finding faint galaxies and galaxy clusters with ease. He even shamed me a little by quickly showing me the stellar dot of the quasar 3C-273, again only using his Telrad on the big scope. I then started paying a little more attention to what he was doing. I noted his little 3-ringed clear plastic home-made Telrad overlays that he used with his atlases and then started to understand exactly how he was finding things by matching the patterns of the faint stars in and around the reticle of the Telrad itself to his atlas overlays as they sat on his charts. I soon purchased a Telrad of my own and began to fully understand that this is no "red-dot" finder, but a very useful tool which can make things easier for some people. Indeed, I often rely on the Telrad alone for finding the Perseus Galaxy Cluster (Abell 426), Abell 262 in southeastern Andromeda, the Coma Berenices Galaxy Cluster (Abell 1656), and the Hercules Galaxy Cluster (Abell 2151). Indeed, there are a number of nearly stellar planetaries that I can get near the center of the field of view using only the Telrad (Campbell's Hydrogen Star for one example).

Nobody said the Telrad can "do it all", but in the hands of one who understands how to properly use it, it can definitely be a very very useful tool. Clear skies to you.


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: David Knisely]
      #5650479 - 01/29/13 02:49 PM

David,

Quote:

Well Mike, for ID-ing a single galaxy in a galaxy cluster, the Telrad alone might or might not be enough. However, the same could be said for some optical finders.




Yes, this is true. But for me the important point is to position the location of the object in the main telescope's eyepiece. To do that, I don't need to see the object itself in the Telrad or the optical finder. The optical finder, however, will show me the location more accurately and allow me to position that location more precisely in the eyepiece.

Quote:

In any case, the Telrad will definitely get the scope more than close enough to the target to allow it to be well within the field of a low to moderate power eyepiece.




This is true, also. But if use my 15x70 optical finder in tandem with Sky Safari, I can easily get close enough to the target that I can see it toward the center of field of a moderately high power eyepiece. Often I don't even need a "finder eyepiece."

Mike


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Starman1
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5650506 - 01/29/13 03:00 PM

Quote:

David,

Quote:

Well Mike, for ID-ing a single galaxy in a galaxy cluster, the Telrad alone might or might not be enough. However, the same could be said for some optical finders.




Yes, this is true. But for me the important point is to position the location of the object in the main telescope's eyepiece. To do that, I don't need to see the object itself in the Telrad or the optical finder. The optical finder, however, will show me the location more accurately and allow me to position that location more precisely in the eyepiece.

Mike




You aren't looking for faint targets, then. Most of the objects I've been viewing recently aren't visible in a 50mm finder either, because they're too faint or too small. I'd need a 100mm finder just to begin to see the faint spots and even then that might not be enough.

It's the reason I don't rely on finders at all but use my Sky Commander to find nearly everything. I don't use it for the really bright stuff--familiarity with locations make using the Telrad sufficient. But for the various NGC, UGC, MCG, ESO, and PGC objects, the Sky Commander beats any finder.
And then the eyepiece becomes the optical finder once you're there.

My main use for the Telrad is to find the bright stuff, and to pinpoint the object I'm looking at for the guy with the neighboring scope to use his Telrad to find it.

I grant you, though, that a lot of objects ARE visible, and centerable, in a 50mm finder.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5650515 - 01/29/13 03:03 PM

Quote:


But often not as accurate as a good optical finder. Certainly, a Telrad is all that's needed for many of the Messier objects, large and bright star clusters, brighter double stars and the like. But for small faint DSO, especially ones in a rich star field, an optical finder or "finder eyepiece" is a much more accurate tool.




See David's post below. I am not as skilled as the person David is mentioning but I am finding far more than Messier objects, bright clusters, bright double stars. For example I can place the group of galaxies that includes NGC5444 in the field of view of my 16 inch or even the 25 inch. Last year I was quite tired and was having the devil of a time finding Hickson 68, a favorite group. Instead I found the 9th magnitude Globular 5466... I had reversed Arcturus and Alkaid.

Jon


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csrlice12
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5650609 - 01/29/13 03:38 PM

I actually use both the Telrad and the RACI. I'll find the object with the Telrad, then check in the RACI to see if what I'm looking for is in the FOV of the finder (usually is). It's also usually in the scopes FOV too; just like to check before looking thru the eyepiece.

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David Knisely
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: mikey cee]
      #5650634 - 01/29/13 03:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I hate the Telrad! I have turned down the purchase of used scopes because it was mounted to them. In my mind it devalues them. I think for dobs they may be the right choice, but when I see these slapped on top other scope types...I cringe!!! Just me and my own hang-up!


I'm of the same belief. They add nothing to a scope's looks especially classics. Only possible exception would be a dob. Mike




Who cares what the scope looks like? It is what you look *at* with the scope that is important, and for that, the Telrad can make the finding experience a lot easier. If I see the Telrad on either a multi-thousand dollar high end refractor or a little home-brew Dob, I know the user of each scope truly understands the value of that simple little reticle finder. Clear skies to you.


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5650773 - 01/29/13 05:14 PM

Quote:


If mine gave out a Rebel Yell, I'd definitely get rid of it!




More's the pity!


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: rmollise]
      #5651026 - 01/29/13 07:46 PM

Come on now, all that was settled many moons ago. But it seems we're still feuding over Telrads.


Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5651065 - 01/29/13 08:05 PM

Don,

Quote:

Quote:

David,

Quote:

Well Mike, for ID-ing a single galaxy in a galaxy cluster, the Telrad alone might or might not be enough. However, the same could be said for some optical finders.




Yes, this is true. But for me the important point is to position the location of the object in the main telescope's eyepiece. To do that, I don't need to see the object itself in the Telrad or the optical finder. The optical finder, however, will show me the location more accurately and allow me to position that location more precisely in the eyepiece.

Mike




You aren't looking for faint targets, then. Most of the objects I've been viewing recently aren't visible in a 50mm finder either, because they're too faint or too small. I'd need a 100mm finder just to begin to see the faint spots and even then that might not be enough.




I don't get the point. Or maybe you didn't get my point. I try to make myself clear, but I don't always succeed.

I was just saying that, yes, I don't see most of the objects I'm looking for in the optical finder. But I do see their location.

In other words, I can see the specific grouping of stars that surround the object. That's all I need. It's not necessary to actually see the object itself in the finder. I center the location of the object - as shown by SkySafari on my Android tablet - behind the crosshairs of the optical finder. No, usually I don't see the object in the finder. That is precisely because it is a faint target I'm looking for. But I will see it in the eyepiece of my main scope.

And for me, I like to have that extra magnification and ability to see fainter stars that the optical finder gives me beyond the naked-eye view of the Telrad. These advantages help me to get a better fix on the location of the faint object, even if I can't actually see it until I look in the main telescope.

When I'm looking in the optical finder, the most important thing is getting the location centered precisely, whether or not I can actually see the intended object. For many faint objects, centering that location is much easier to do with a finder that magnifies and brightens the environs of the object.

Remember, I don't usually have a "finder eyepiece" in the focuser of the telescope. I think many people - I'm not saying all - rely on a "finder eyepiece" to find the object after star hopping with the Telrad. Then they may switch to a shorter focal length for a higher power view. I go from a quick look through the Telrad, to a star hop with the optical finder to center the location of the object, then straight to a medium to higher power eyepiece in the telescope - depending on the object.

So, AFAIK, many observers are actually using that "finder eyepiece" in lieu of an optical finder after positioning the scope with the Telrad. I'd rather do most of my star hopping with the optical finder.

To each their own. Whatever works.

Mike


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Starman1
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5651132 - 01/29/13 08:42 PM

Well, we're agreed. if your star charts go a few magnitudes deeper than naked eye, an optical finder is the way to identify the field location.
Bear in mind that a lot of dob owners use BOTH types of finders on their scopes.
And for what it's worth, a lot of DSOs are visible in a 50mm finder.
Sometimes I've been surprised at how many.


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Jaimo!
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5651157 - 01/29/13 09:00 PM

Quote:

Well, we're agreed. if your star charts go a few magnitudes deeper than naked eye, an optical finder is the way to identify the field location.
Bear in mind that a lot of dob owners use BOTH types of finders on their scopes.
And for what it's worth, a lot of DSOs are visible in a 50mm finder.
Sometimes I've been surprised at how many.




I use both...



Jaimo!


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5651309 - 01/29/13 10:36 PM

Don,

Quote:

Well, we're agreed. if your star charts go a few magnitudes deeper than naked eye, an optical finder is the way to identify the field location.




Yes indeed. As I'm star hopping with the optical finder, I'm comparing the view in the finder with the star positions in SkySafari on my tablet. The tablet is light enough that I can hold it in one hand as I look through the finder. But the tablet is 10.5" wide, large enough to give me a nice easy vista for star hopping in context.

I prefer this method to any involved use of Telrad degree circles, preplanning star hops based on those circles, and making a series of extended hops with the Telrad. My method takes not much more planning than generating an Object List in SkySafari. That's about it. No need to draw a series of Telrad circles on charts and preplan star hops. I do all of that on-the-fly by the telescope at the dark site.

Quote:

Bear in mind that a lot of dob owners use BOTH types of finders on their scopes.




I think maybe most of us use both types of finders. So do I. I'm just considering replacing the Telrad with the ES finder, which would give me a straight-through erect-image view like the Telrad, but with more magnification and the ability to display dimmer stars. That is something I've wanted ever since I first started using a Telrad.

Quote:

And for what it's worth, a lot of DSOs are visible in a 50mm finder.
Sometimes I've been surprised at how many.




That's true. And even more are visible in a 70mm! I was lucky to find a little bargain basement 70mm achromat with a surprisingly good objective, that I could upgrade to become a very nice finder and RFT.


Mike


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5651596 - 01/30/13 04:14 AM

If I'm not mistaken, the length of the Telrad permits a greater distance between the reticle and the viewing window, which reduces parallax. With the small Rigel Quickfinder, if you move your head behind it you will see the reticle shift relative to the star field. You don't see as much of that with a Telrad.

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RogerRZ
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Joe Bergeron]
      #5651616 - 01/30/13 05:05 AM

Quote:

If I'm not mistaken, the length of the Telrad permits a greater distance between the reticle and the viewing window, which reduces parallax. With the small Rigel Quickfinder, if you move your head behind it you will see the reticle shift relative to the star field. You don't see as much of that with a Telrad.




Mine is mounted at the front of my MN65, which is in turn mounted high enough to need a step stool to reach the eyepiece.

I always view through the Telrad from the back of the OTA, roughly three feet away. That's very decent eye relief. :-)


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JMW
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: RogerRZ]
      #5651630 - 01/30/13 06:02 AM

Yes, it's your scope, do what you want.

I use Sky Commander or Argo Navis on my push to mounts. I often have a TEC-140 on a Discmount DM-6 and a large dob set up for viewing. I have a Telrad on a bracket on the top of my Discmount so I don't have to put it on the tube of my TEC-140. I have another Telrad on the OTA of the Obsession 20F5. I can't imaging using a large truss dob without a Telrad.

Here are my reasons to use the Telrad.

Not sensitive to eye placement, can be used with eye several feet behind Telrad.
Get's you to the star neighborhood before getting on the tall ladder.
Quickest way to show the public or other astronomers where your scope is pointed at.
After finding object with first scope, just move second scope to match up Telrads.
Fasted way to know your scope is pointed to the correct alignment star when setting up DSC.
Batteries last forever, don't event worry about remembering to turn it off.
Lots of sky charts and astronomy apps support using the tetrad circles.
When used with a great wide field eyepiece, you may not need a 2nd optical finder.
Large lever makes it easy to adjust brightness to match observing situation.
It's inexpensive and just works.


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: JMW]
      #5651773 - 01/30/13 08:24 AM

I think for now I might attach the ES finder to my C6 to get a feel of how it performs in the field before I start drilling holes in my 10" OTA. The bracket screws that came with the C6 are too short to attach the ES finder mount. I need longer M4 screws to mount the ES finder.

The 6x30 finder that came with the C6 is OK if all I'm going to look at is the Moon and planets. But for locating and observing DSO and double stars, I want a finder that is erect-image non-reversed with some magnification, in other words, the ES finder.

It may turn out that I only use the ES finder on my C6, 5" Dob, and maybe my 150mm Mak and 8" Dob. One finder that can perform the combined functions of a Telrad and optical finder would be very good for those smaller scopes. I might keep the team of Telrad and 15x70 finder for my 10" Dob. They have worked very well for me at my dark site.

Mike


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5652544 - 01/30/13 03:26 PM

Quote:

One finder that can perform the combined functions of a Telrad and optical finder would be very good for those smaller scopes. I might keep the team of Telrad and 15x70 finder for my 10" Dob. They have worked very well for me at my dark site.




That's very similar to what I do. All my Newtonians have straight-through magnifying finders. 8 inches and below, there isn't room for a Telrad so I just use a magnifying finder. The Dobsonians also have Telrads...

Jon


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5653038 - 01/30/13 07:10 PM

One feature that most straight-through finders lack that Telrads - and the ES finders - have is an erect-image non-reversed orientation. Most straight-through finders have an inverted image, like the Dobsonian view.

I suppose one thing that the usual straight-throughs have in their favor is that at least they do match the orientation of the main telescope when the main telescope is a Dobsonian. In practice, though, I don't think that this really helps much.

I'd rather that the first line of attack in locating and observing DSO be a finder which has a view matching the natural orientation of my eyes looking skyward. One of the main reasons I picked up the ES finder is that its orientation matches that of the Telrad, printed star charts and my naked-eye.

But I do like a simple, light-weight straight-through inverted finder on scopes when I only intend to observe the Moon and planets. In that case, a little 6x30 straight-through is good enough, and IME & IMO, actually better than a Telrad or red-dot finder. Locating and centering - or recentering - the Moon and planets in the finder is even easier when the finder magnifies a little. And of course, you are looking directly at the object in the sky when you are positioning it behind the crosshairs, so there is none of the frustration that can be caused by having a right-angle finder as the first line of attack.

Mike


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Luigi
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5654737 - 01/31/13 05:26 PM

Holy cow. Lot's of posts...I didn't read them all but in case these haven't been mentioned, I'll add two things:

A blinking reticule helps a lot. I built a little homebrew circuit to accomplish that.

You can look through the Telrad with binoculars. This works better for a SCT, MCT, refractor or similar on mount than it does for most dobs. You can pan around the view with the bins to get the lay of the land and figure out where you are. For trickier star-hops in sparse fields, I use the telrad for very basic aiming, look through it with my bins to see dimmer stars and refine the aim, then use the finder on the scope.


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Luigi]
      #5654980 - 01/31/13 08:10 PM

Hi Luigi,

When I'm at my dark site, I just turn the Telrad way down, almost off. That seems to work well enough. The QuickFinder has blinking capability, but I don't think I've ever used mine at the dark site, only at home for grab-n-go viewing.

I've tried looking through the Telrad with binoculars and also a little monocular. That never worked very well for me. This was on Dobs, though. I even tried rigging up a monocular or half of a binocular behind the Telrad. Seemed like a good idea, but I could never get it right in practice.

This basic idea of wanting magnification and the ability to go a bit deeper with a straight-through illuminated finder is why I picked up the ES finder.

Mike


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Greyhaven
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5655043 - 01/31/13 08:46 PM

I prefer the RACI or even straight through finer to the telrad. On my 12" Dob the angle at which I have to hold my head just is too uncomfortable for me.Plus because of severe inner ear balance issues the placement of my head to use the telrad can set off vertigo, not fun when viewing alone.
The regular finders can be easily aligned during set up before dark I find this very handy. I have 2 telrads and 1 2" riser and would part with them way sooner than I would do without my magnifying finders.
Be Well
Grey


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Greyhaven]
      #5655061 - 01/31/13 08:54 PM

Quote:


I prefer the RACI or even straight through finer to the telrad. On my 12" Dob the angle at which I have to hold my head just is too uncomfortable for me




What kind of chair are you using?

Jon


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5655851 - 02/01/13 09:00 AM

I was able to find longer screws to attach my ES finder to the C6. The ES bracket has four screws for attaching the mount, but the C6 only has two screws available on each side of the focuser. Of course, the ES finder and mount is heavier than the 6x30 setup. If I were to add a 2" VB and diagonal, and/or a Crayford focuser, there might be a problem balancing the C6. I might run out of dovetail. But so far, I'm resigned to the fact that a 1.25" setup is best for this little scope.

The ES finder seems pretty secure when attached by only the two screws. I've held the OTA with ES finder and moved it into various positions. The finder appears to be steady as a rock. Though it would have been a bit easier for grab-n-go if I'd left the 6x30 finder on the C6.

Mike


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Jaimo!
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5656018 - 02/01/13 10:19 AM

Wow, 100 posts on THIS thread?

Let me see if I can summarize... Some people like using Telrads and some do not. Some prefer to use other types finders.



Jaimo!


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jaimo!]
      #5656042 - 02/01/13 10:26 AM

Yes, but why do they have these preferences? I hope it is more than just fan-boy product support.

We are not sheeple. Are we not men?


Mike


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Jaimo!
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5656065 - 02/01/13 10:35 AM

Well Mike, has your initial question been answered and how would you summarize? The Telrad has it's pluses and minuses...


Jaimo

Edited by Jaimo! (02/01/13 10:43 AM)


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jaimo!]
      #5656133 - 02/01/13 11:03 AM

The devil is in the details, and those details are among my posts and the posts that others have submitted here.

I'd hate to think, though, that any observer would choose a piece of equipment through sheer random chance, fan-boy support, mindless sloth or a good feeling. But then again...

For the time being I've decided to keep the Telrad. I'll continue to use it on my 10" Dob in tandem with a 15x70 optical finder when I go to the dark site. That is the only place I'll use the Telrad, and the 10" is the only telescope I'll use it on. Even for the 10", when I'm here at home, I'll remove both the Telrad and 15x70 finder and replace them with a simple and light-weight straight-through 6x30 for the Moon and planets.

After I've gotten a chance to try out the ES finder on my C6, I might give it a go on my 10", as a direct replacement for the Telrad. As I've said in my posts, the ES finder will give me magnification and a deeper limiting magnitude, but retain the straight-through erect-image non-reversing orientation of the Telrad. But I'll still keep the 15x70 on the 10" OTA as well, because it gives me the ergonomic comfort of RACI and is a good little RFT.

Mike


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5656243 - 02/01/13 12:11 PM

Quote:

Yes, but why do they have these preferences? I hope it is more than just fan-boy product support.

We are not sheeple. Are we not men?


Mike




I use Telrads because they are effective in helping me find what I am looking for. I have yet to see any fan-boi responses in this thread but I have seen some who are not fully aware of the capabilities of the Telrad.

Jon


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5656314 - 02/01/13 12:51 PM

Yea, behold the mighty Telrad. Greatest advance in astronomy since the sextant!


Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5656323 - 02/01/13 12:59 PM

Hmmm... Something's missing. What this Dob needs is a Telrad!

What's missing here? Aha! Slap a Telrad on that 'fractor!


Mike


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David Knisely
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5656396 - 02/01/13 01:42 PM

Quote:

Yes, but why do they have these preferences? I hope it is more than just fan-boy product support.

We are not sheeple. Are we not men?


Mike




No, it isn't "fan boy" support. As has been explained numerous times, the Telrad is a very useful tool with a number of advantages over some other finder systems. End of story.


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: David Knisely]
      #5656400 - 02/01/13 01:45 PM

I just now submitted two posts of fan-boy support for the Telrad, in case no other posts in this thread would qualify. So there is some fan-boy support after all.


Mike


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Jaimo!
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5656469 - 02/01/13 02:23 PM

Actually Mike over 40 posts in this thread have been yours... Besides your initial question.

Jaimo!


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jaimo!]
      #5656478 - 02/01/13 02:31 PM

But only two have been fan-boy posts for the Telrad!

Mike


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5656660 - 02/01/13 04:09 PM

Quote:

But only two have been fan-boy posts for the Telrad!

Mike




As I said previously, it took me a while to warm up to using a Telrad, it was only when I bought a used scope with both a magnifying finder and a Telrad that I began to recognize what a powerful tool the Telrad was.

Jon


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smallscopefanLeo
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5656662 - 02/01/13 04:11 PM

I love my Telrads, call me a fan boy if you will. (Doesn't hurt that they're made in California.) I am not sure I understand the nature of your constant bumping this thread. Are you trying to ruffle feathers? Just wondering!

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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: smallscopefanLeo]
      #5656797 - 02/01/13 05:13 PM

My Telrad changed my life! It cleared up my acne, helped me to lose 50 pounds, got me dates with the hottest girls, caused my truck to get an extra 5 miles per gallon, and its mere presence in my house raised the value of my home by $10,000.

Howzat ya'll?


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beatlejuice
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5656889 - 02/01/13 06:08 PM

Quote:

I just now submitted two posts of fan-boy support for the Telrad





Mike I'm not sure what you mean. Like, submitted them to the anti-telrad police?

Eric


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tecmageModerator
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: beatlejuice]
      #5656921 - 02/01/13 06:31 PM

Like the Terms of Service says, be nice.

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beatlejuice
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? *DELETED* new [Re: tecmage]
      #5656945 - 02/01/13 06:46 PM

Post deleted by beatlejuice

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tecmageModerator
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: beatlejuice]
      #5657024 - 02/01/13 07:40 PM

Quote:

Sorry for my ignorance, please explain what is thought to be offensive in replying in jest to a jestful post. In fact a post made by the OP himself.

Eric



Eric, my post was not aimed at you. It was a general shout out to the thread. Some people are sensitive to joking about their equipment choices. If you'll excuse me, I have to order a Telrad.


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turtle86
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Tom Polakis]
      #5657056 - 02/01/13 08:01 PM Attachment (3 downloads)

Quote:


Man, you'll really cringe when you learn that there's a Telrad on the 48" UK Schmidt at Siding Spring Observatory, and on the 60" at Mount Wilson, shown below. I have seen Telrads on other observatory scopes, and they are only installed for the case when the pointing is not established or working correctly.

Tom




Great pic. I was surprised to see that the 24" Clark refractor at Lowell Observatory also has a Telrad. I'm sure Percival Lowell found it handy for tracking down Mars.


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smallscopefanLeo
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: turtle86]
      #5657095 - 02/01/13 08:38 PM

Those pictures of Telrads on such legendary instruments say it all.
And beauty being in the eye of the beholder, I happen to think it looks the business. Pure function..


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: okieav8r]
      #5657166 - 02/01/13 09:25 PM

Quote:

My Telrad changed my life! It cleared up my acne, helped me to lose 50 pounds, got me dates with the hottest girls, caused my truck to get an extra 5 miles per gallon, and its mere presence in my house raised the value of my home by $10,000.

Howzat ya'll?




Sounds good to me. Even more reasons to keep the Telrad.

Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: turtle86]
      #5657178 - 02/01/13 09:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Man, you'll really cringe when you learn that there's a Telrad on the 48" UK Schmidt at Siding Spring Observatory, and on the 60" at Mount Wilson, shown below. I have seen Telrads on other observatory scopes, and they are only installed for the case when the pointing is not established or working correctly.

Tom




Great pic. I was surprised to see that the 24" Clark refractor at Lowell Observatory also has a Telrad. I'm sure Percival Lowell found it handy for tracking down Mars.




Come on, now, we have to admit that's a funny pic!


Mike


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turtle86
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5657244 - 02/01/13 10:10 PM

Quote:

Come on, now, we have to admit that's a funny pic!


Mike





It was oddly anachronistic to say the least!


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: turtle86]
      #5657419 - 02/01/13 11:56 PM

I use my Telrad even though it's ugly and I have GoTo.
I don't use it as a finder as much as a show-er.
As in it shows me where my scope is pointing.
This is why we see them attached to those wonderful large observatory scopes, to show where the scope is pointing.
You can be 3 feet away and still see the bulls eye.
Makes for a simple answer to "So what are we looking at?"
Fact is everybody would probably have one on their scope if they weren't so ugly.
Telrad, are you listening?
Seriously, make them better looking and sell four times as many.

Cheers
Jim

p.s. if anyone has pictures of a Telrad that has been chopped I'd like to see them to give me some ideas.


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: UncleMossy]
      #5657713 - 02/02/13 08:52 AM

There were several threads about cutting a Telrad down to size, with pics.

Here ya go:

I cut my Telrad in HALF!

And here:

Cutting Telrad in Half!

Also:

Telrad Mods

Mike


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5658404 - 02/02/13 03:53 PM

Quote:


There were several threads about cutting a Telrad down to size, with pics.





Don Pensock's comment was the most perceptive, "You don't need to cut the Telrad in half, only the base."

Jon


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stevew
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5658580 - 02/02/13 05:40 PM Attachment (6 downloads)

I for one, have always loved the legendary Telrad.
I currently own 3, and about 7 or 8 bases, so I can swap them out on different scopes. I have tried different red dot finders and found all but the TV Starbeam to be cheap imitations that use button type batteries that are expensive and don't last very long.

Most of the time I only use a Telrad with out any other optical finder. I have great success star hoping just using a Telrad and a low power eyepiece. I do this with everything from a 4 inch F-6 to a C11 and a 16 inch reflector.

Steve


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rockethead26
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: stevew]
      #5658646 - 02/02/13 06:11 PM

Hey Steve, where did you get the cool little triangular map tool?

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stevew
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: rockethead26]
      #5658665 - 02/02/13 06:19 PM

Quote:

Hey Steve, where did you get the cool little triangular map tool?




I bought it at my local astronomy shop back in the early 1990s. I have not seen any others since.
It's designed to mimic the Telrad pattern, and be sized for use with Sky Atlas 2000.
Wish I could point you in the direction to purchase one, but I'm not sure they are made any more.
I'm sure it would be easy enough to make one from a bit of plastic or glass.
Steve


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: stevew]
      #5658739 - 02/02/13 07:05 PM

Hey Mike,
Send me your Telrad! I kinda like them and if you have any issues, they would be mitigated by ridding yourself of those pesky things. . . and you would enjoy listening to the lamentations of all those folks who disagree with you!!

And if you really missed the Telrad - I would immediately return it to you!

Needing one for my newly acquired DOB - your friend,
Bob


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rockethead26
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: stevew]
      #5658844 - 02/02/13 08:11 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Hey Steve, where did you get the cool little triangular map tool?




I bought it at my local astronomy shop back in the early 1990s. I have not seen any others since.
It's designed to mimic the Telrad pattern, and be sized for use with Sky Atlas 2000.
Wish I could point you in the direction to purchase one, but I'm not sure they are made any more.
I'm sure it would be easy enough to make one from a bit of plastic or glass.
Steve




Thanks! Well, money saved for other goodies. I've never seen one before.


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: rockethead26]
      #5658902 - 02/02/13 08:46 PM

The half-Telrad mod is interesting. I would mount the battery on the top though... or, there also appears to be enough room inside for AAA batteries...

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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Doc Bob]
      #5658921 - 02/02/13 09:00 PM

Quote:

Hey Mike,
Send me your Telrad! I kinda like them and if you have any issues, they would be mitigated by ridding yourself of those pesky things. . . and you would enjoy listening to the lamentations of all those folks who disagree with you!!

And if you really missed the Telrad - I would immediately return it to you!

Needing one for my newly acquired DOB - your friend,
Bob




Hi Bob,

Sorry, but I've decided to keep the Telrad just for my 10" Dob when I go to the dark site, at least for now. After I have a chance to try my ES finder on the C6, I might want to replace the Telrad on the 10" with the ES finder, too. So it looks like you'll have to wait for that Telrad. If I ever get rid of it, you'll be the first to know.

On the other hand, Telrads are pretty cheap, compared to a lot of the other accessories amateurs buy for their scopes. You could just buy one.

Since the Telrad is such an inexpensive gizmo, I'm kind of surprised that it's developed such a loyal fan base. Think about it. The Telrad doesn't cost multiple hundreds of dollars, it has no green letters, there is no long waiting list to buy one, I doubt if it's ever backordered, it's not made in Japan or Germany ... what's up with that?

(Wait for the obvious answer from the usual suspects.)


Mike

P.S.: What is your newly acquired Dob? I don't see it in your sig. You know that under the TOS, any new acquisition over $50 is supposed to be listed down there.


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5658964 - 02/02/13 09:36 PM

Quote:

Since the Telrad is such an inexpensive gizmo, I'm kind of surprised that it's developed such a loyal fan base. Think about it. The Telrad doesn't cost multiple hundreds of dollars, it has no green letters, there is no long waiting list to buy one, I doubt if it's ever backordered, it's not made in Japan or Germany ... what's up with that?




Good stuff doesn't have to be expensive nor fancy.

Lew Chilton's short piece on the invention of the Telrad is always a good read:

Lew Chilton and the Telrad

Jon


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stevew
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5658998 - 02/02/13 10:09 PM

Hands up for those that have left their Telrad turned on only to discover it was turned on during the next observing session...

Those batteries seem to last forever.....

Steve


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5659041 - 02/02/13 10:36 PM

Quote:

Good stuff doesn't have to be expensive nor fancy.




+1

Mike


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GeneT
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5659072 - 02/02/13 10:56 PM

I recommend both a Telrad and an optical finder. They complement each other very well. I prefer the Telrad over any other red dot finder.

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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5660110 - 02/03/13 02:36 PM

A Telrad is the only finding device on my 12.5" truss-tube Dob and I've managed to observe a lot of objects using it.

Dave Mitsky


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Doc Bob
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Dave Mitsky]
      #5660495 - 02/03/13 06:05 PM

Hi Mike, et al;
The DOB is a 2006 model Zumell 10" f/4.92 - given to me for trial - if I like it, my friend will get a couple of hundred $$. Honesty, I can't see not buying this scope! It's very nice!! There's a Telrad mount already attached. So far it seems like a really nice scope. . . of course since I received it - the sky has been nothing but clouds and snow!!! So the curse extends to trials as well as purchases ! ! ! Go figure.

Looking forward to joining you in the Hershel 400 search at our dark site ! !

Good viewing,
Bob


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: GeneT]
      #5660629 - 02/03/13 07:46 PM

Quote:

I recommend both a Telrad and an optical finder. They complement each other very well. I prefer the Telrad over any other red dot finder.






That's about the long and short of it.. 138 posts and you said all that needs be said.

Jon


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Doc Bob]
      #5660801 - 02/03/13 10:00 PM

Bob,

Quote:

The DOB is a 2006 model Zumell 10" f/4.92 - given to me for trial - if I like it, my friend will get a couple of hundred $$. Honesty, I can't see not buying this scope! It's very nice!! There's a Telrad mount already attached. So far it seems like a really nice scope. . . of course since I received it - the sky has been nothing but clouds and snow!!! So the curse extends to trials as well as purchases ! ! ! Go figure.




Welcome to the 10" Dob Club! There are many illustrious members here on CN. The 10" Dob has been called the largest of the small scopes ... or is that the smallest of the large scopes? Anyway, you'll enjoy it.

Quote:

Looking forward to joining you in the Hershel 400 search at our dark site ! !




IME & IMO, a 10" Dob is the best scope for tackling the H400's: enough light grasp to handle the task with just enough challenge to make it interesting. I have one more H400 object to bag. I would have found it last time at the dark site, but I had accidently left it off my Object List in SkySafari. Definitely next time I'll finish the H400's!


Mike


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okieav8r
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5660833 - 02/03/13 10:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I recommend both a Telrad and an optical finder. They complement each other very well. I prefer the Telrad over any other red dot finder.






That's about the long and short of it.. 138 posts and you said all that needs be said.

Jon




That, and "do whatever floats your boat'.


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: okieav8r]
      #5660896 - 02/03/13 11:20 PM

For me, star hopping with just a Telrad would be too much of a bother. Do I really want to map out how many Telrad circles of 4 or 2 degrees I would need to reach a certain object? No, not really. That's too much like work for my taste. The less plotting of degrees, star hops and Telrad circles the better.

Instead, I sight on the nearest visible star with the Telrad, then use Sky Safari and the optical finder to star hop to the object. Easy sneezy. I can do this on-the-fly with no preplanning. As a bonus, I get to see the route and destination with a nice rich-field telescope, my 15x70 finder. You don't get that if you just use a Telrad.

Mike


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okieav8r
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5661004 - 02/04/13 12:39 AM

Quote:

For me, star hopping with just a Telrad would be too much of a bother. Do I really want to map out how many Telrad circles of 4 or 2 degrees I would need to reach a certain object? No, not really. That's too much like work for my taste. The less plotting of degrees, star hops and Telrad circles the better.

Instead, I sight on the nearest visible star with the Telrad, then use Sky Safari and the optical finder to star hop to the object. Easy sneezy. I can do this on-the-fly with no preplanning. As a bonus, I get to see the route and destination with a nice rich-field telescope, my 15x70 finder. You don't get that if you just use a Telrad.

Mike




I can't argue with your point about rich field views, Mike. Sometimes, those are best.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5661133 - 02/04/13 04:40 AM

Quote:


For me, star hopping with just a Telrad would be too much of a bother. Do I really want to map out how many Telrad circles of 4 or 2 degrees I would need to reach a certain object? No, not really. That's too much like work for my taste. The less plotting of degrees, star hops and Telrad circles the better.




That is not really how it works, any such mapping is generally unnecessary and if is necessary, Sky Safari shows separations.

Using the Telrad is all about matching patterns and positioning the Telrad circles relative to stars that are visible naked eye. It's very effective if the skies are reasonably dark and it's a whole lot simpler than using a magnifying finder because it can be done with stars that are visible naked eye. Instead of using the Telrad like a red dot finder, and then using the magnifying finder, I find that most often, I am able to point the telescope directly at the object using the Telrad alone.

If you don't want to use it, don't. But let others who do know how to use the Telrad effectively discuss it's use.

Jon


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bilgebay
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5661138 - 02/04/13 04:56 AM

I love Telrad so much so that I use it with all my scopes. Makes life so much easy for me!





I am amazed at people's ability to talk on such a simple subject for 8 pages! You guys must be all retired




Edited by bilgebay (02/04/13 05:43 AM)


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5661207 - 02/04/13 07:06 AM

Jon,

Quote:

That is not really how it works, any such mapping is generally unnecessary and if is necessary, Sky Safari shows separations.




I do think that's how it works for some folks who use Telrads. Not all by any means, but some. I've seen their discussions about preplanning for Telrad hops in other threads, and in this one, I believe. Some people just like all that prepwork figuring out hops, charting asterisms, and drawing little Telrad circles on star charts. Come on, you know they do. Maybe these are mostly observers who still depend on printed star charts and don't want to "upgrade" to SkySafari and other electronic tools.

Quote:

Using the Telrad is all about matching patterns and positioning the Telrad circles relative to stars that are visible naked eye. It's very effective if the skies are reasonably dark and it's a whole lot simpler than using a magnifying finder because it can be done with stars that are visible naked eye.




I do some of that, also. Geometrical triangulation. But for me, I think it would be a bother to do it for most objects. Maybe it is easier if you are under black or grey zone skies. I wouldn't know. My dark site is yellow zone, and I have to travel an hour one way to reach that. The nearest black/grey zone is over six hours away. I'm not one for long road trips. That would not be easy and would not be worth the time and effort, IMO. That's just not happen'. I think many if not most observers share similar circumstances.

Quote:

If you don't want to use it, don't. But let others who do know how to use the Telrad effectively discuss it's use.




I'm not stopping anyone from saying anything. Only the TOS and the Moderators can do that.

Mike


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RogerRZ
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: bilgebay]
      #5661213 - 02/04/13 07:12 AM

Quote:

I love Telrad so much so that I use it with all my scopes. Makes life so much easy for me!





I am amazed at people's ability to talk on such a simple subject for 8 pages! You guys must be all retired







That backwards mounted Telrad would make star-hopping challenging, wouldn't it?


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: bilgebay]
      #5661214 - 02/04/13 07:13 AM

Quote:

I am amazed at people's ability to talk on such a simple subject for 8 pages! You guys must be all retired




No, I'm not retired. But I will be in the near future. Just wait until then and see how many pages I churn out!


Mike


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bilgebay
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: RogerRZ]
      #5661222 - 02/04/13 07:22 AM

Quote:



That backwards mounted Telrad would make star-hopping challenging, wouldn't it?




Thank you for your keen eye Very funny indeed.

I must have seated the scope into the clamshell the wrong way. I was very excited to try my new adaptation of the
Micro Touch motor to FSQ focus knob.


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bilgebay
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5661226 - 02/04/13 07:25 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I am amazed at people's ability to talk on such a simple subject for 8 pages! You guys must be all retired




No, I'm not retired. But I will be in the near future. Just wait until then and see how many pages I churn out!


Mike




I was expecting this


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: bilgebay]
      #5661233 - 02/04/13 07:34 AM

It also helps to be a fast typist. No hunt-and-pecker here.


Mike


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5661252 - 02/04/13 08:05 AM

Quote:


I do some of that, also. Geometrical triangulation. But for me, I think it would be a bother to do it for most objects.




It doesn't really matter whether one is using a Telrad or a magnifying finder, most objects will not be visible so some triangulation, some geometrical location, will most likely be required.

Jon


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5661257 - 02/04/13 08:11 AM

But with the magnifying finder, the image scale is larger and more helper stars are visible, so, IME & IMO, it is easier to get a more precise fix on the location of the object than with a Telrad. Why wouldn't it be? That's how I can avoid plunking in a "finder eyepiece" and go straight to a moderate to high power eyepiece in the focuser.

Notice I specified "location" of the object. It goes without saying that many objects intended for the main telescope will not be seen in either Telrad or optical finder. What we are finding in many cases is the location of the object, not the object itself. Fishing around for an object is not the best way to "find" it.

Mike


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5661308 - 02/04/13 08:59 AM

"That backwards mounted Telrad would make star-hopping challenging, wouldn't it?"

Hey, that's a Domino's Telrad that came free with my pizza order.........they're very rare....


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bilgebay
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5661338 - 02/04/13 09:19 AM



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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: bilgebay]
      #5661378 - 02/04/13 09:44 AM

Hey, a pizza came with that? I never got one with my Telrad.


Mike


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5662307 - 02/04/13 07:00 PM

Quote:

That's how I can avoid plunking in a "finder eyepiece" and go straight to a moderate to high power eyepiece in the focuser.




Interesting.... For me, those big, bright, low power views are to kill for, not something I ever avoid, rather views that I cherish.

Jon


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5662457 - 02/04/13 08:38 PM

Big, low power views are best for the big stuff. For the small and dim things, it's best to go straight to higher power. Dark adapted eyes have diminished visual acuity. Magnification helps to see structure, and even to detect some of the faint fuzzies.

Mike


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paul hart
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: RAKing]
      #5662634 - 02/04/13 10:33 PM

Quote:

Mike,

I use both a Telrad and a RACI finder for star-hopping. The Telrad is faster to get me to the 'hood, then the RACI takes over.

Cheers,

Ron




Agreed


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stevew
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5662636 - 02/04/13 10:34 PM

Quote:

For me, star hopping with just a Telrad would be too much of a bother.

Instead, I sight on the nearest visible star with the Telrad, then use Sky Safari and the optical finder to star hop to the object.
Mike




Sorry no Sky Safari for me.
I sit at a desk all day staring at a computer, reviewing inventory levels, sales figures, and e-mailing.
When I do get away from my desk, I'm texting and e-mailing customers and head office on my Blackberry.
When I get out under the stars I don't want to be anywhere near a computer or hand held digital device.
Just give me a good telescope and a star to steer her by. [Along with a Telrad of course]

To each his own.

Steve


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: stevew]
      #5662968 - 02/05/13 07:06 AM

Of course I used printed star atlases and finder charts before I got SkySafari on the Android. I don't have goto or DSCs, I never have had them, so I need some sort of guide to take with me. I probably know the locations of at least a hundred objects from memory, but that gets old quick for me. I like to focus on finding stuff I've never seen before.

So far, SkySafari is the best solution for me. SS on Android takes up less space, is lighter and easier to hold right at the telescope than printed atlases, and contains many more "maps." Also, I can filter objects, change the image scale, display objects from a list, adjust limiting magnitude, etc. I'll never go back to printed atlases as my main reference at the dark site.

One negative is that Sky Safari displays dark nebulae as squares and rectangles. Not very good if you want to get an idea of their natural shape for identification. So I do still bring along a good printed atlas in case I want to go after DN.

Mike


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5663047 - 02/05/13 08:26 AM

No, now we have a chance to answer one of Astronomy's greatest questions: Do batteries ever go dead in a Telrad!!! Don't get rid of it, set it on a table, turn it on, and check it every few years....hopefully you'll be around long enough to let us know, if not.....Telrad, The Next Generation......

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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5663074 - 02/05/13 08:45 AM

Batteries do last long on a Telrad. I think I've changed the batteries in mine once in the last five years.

My Asus Transformer Android lasts for a long time on one charging. I'm usually at the dark site for five or six hours. I've yet to see the Android battery go below the halfway mark after all that time.

Some complain that the batteries in illuminated reticle eyepieces run out before a night's over. But the ones in my Orion illuminated eyepiece just go and and on. I have the eyepiece on all night, just like the Telrad and Android. I think I've changed the batteries in the eyepiece twice in five years.

The eight D-cells in the power supply for my primary fan also last long. And I have that fan on all night. I might change one D-cell over the course of a year.

I have a separate 12-v battery for the Dew Buster. That goes strong all night, too. I recharge it as a matter of course when I get back from the dark site.

But just in case, I always carry fresh replacement batteries for all the gizmos.

Mike


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5663206 - 02/05/13 09:57 AM

Quote:

Big, low power views are best for the big stuff. For the small and dim things, it's best to go straight to higher power. Dark adapted eyes have diminished visual acuity. Magnification helps to see structure, and even to detect some of the faint fuzzies.

Mike




Mike:

No matter how small it might be, there is time to both cherish the big, low power view of an object (and the region around it)and swap eyepieces and enjoy the detail that higher magnifications allow. It's not an either/or thing.

It's true that some objects may not be perceived at the lowest magnifications but most are.

Jon


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5663274 - 02/05/13 10:23 AM

I always cherish the big, low power view of an object within its environs as I'm star hopping to it with the 15x70 finder. I don't need to swap eyepieces in the main telescope. I try to choose intitally whichever eyepiece is best for the object. Often for moderate to small sized objects, the best eyepiece is my Baader Zoom, since it allows me to dial in the optimum image scale and perceived contrast.

But I can always switch to a wide-field, low-power eyepiece if I want. It is an option, but not a necessity since I have no need for a finder eyepiece.

Mike


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csrlice12
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5663291 - 02/05/13 10:29 AM

Jon and Mike: This is what's nice about this hobby, Options!

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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5663319 - 02/05/13 10:41 AM

Yes, as always, YMMV!


Mike


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5663387 - 02/05/13 11:16 AM

Quote:

I always cherish the big, low power view of an object within its environs as I'm star hopping to it with the 15x70 finder. I don't need to swap eyepieces in the main telescope.




There is quite a difference between a low power refractor/magnifying finder view and the low power view in the main scope. Both are wonderful but they are very different. And, there is time to enjoy both. It's never work to put the 31mm Nagler in the Paracorr, "avoiding plunking in a "finder eyepiece"" is not something I ever consider, quite the contrary.. Plunking in a finder eyepiece is something I do at every possible chance.

Jon


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5663394 - 02/05/13 11:20 AM

I try to let the objects dictate the optics.

Mike


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5663456 - 02/05/13 11:52 AM

Quote:

I try to let the objects dictate the optics.

Mike




The object is the night sky... I am big on just looking around to see what I can see. I spend plenty of time zoomed in at higher magnifications, looking at particular objects but that's only part of the story. Not so many goals, just the experience of the moment is, appreciating the Eskimo Nebula at both high and low magnifications..

Jon


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5663536 - 02/05/13 12:46 PM

Page 10 is around the corner

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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5663590 - 02/05/13 01:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I try to let the objects dictate the optics.

Mike




The object is the night sky... I am big on just looking around to see what I can see. I spend plenty of time zoomed in at higher magnifications, looking at particular objects but that's only part of the story. Not so many goals, just the experience of the moment is, appreciating the Eskimo Nebula at both high and low magnifications..

Jon




If the object is the night sky, I could save a lot of time and effort by leaving all my equipment at home and just looking up with naked eyes.

I'm very much goal oriented when I take the trouble to travel 100 miles round trip to my dark site. If newbies or my family are there, I might take them on a rambling tour of showpiece objects from memory. Or if I'm home, I might do the same. But when I'm on task at the dark site, I'm loaded for bear and focused on the hunt.

Mike


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5663607 - 02/05/13 01:43 PM

"But when I'm on task at the dark site, I'm loaded for bear and focused on the hunt."

Yup, nothing gets left behind on dark site trips.....


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5663688 - 02/05/13 02:34 PM

I even take along the Telrad!


Mike


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5663703 - 02/05/13 02:46 PM Attachment (4 downloads)

A couple of old warhorses...

I removed the on/off lever to prevent accidental turnon (happened a lot when storing/transporting.)

Dewing problem solved with heavy duty flocking paper.

Keep track of which goes where with "X"

Just noticed...you can see one of them mounted on my Fujinon 25x150 binocular in my avatar.



Edited by Mr. Bill (02/05/13 02:52 PM)


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5663705 - 02/05/13 02:47 PM

OK, I was wrong; you can leave the spare telrad batteries at home.......

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Greyhaven
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #5663766 - 02/05/13 03:22 PM

Oh, So that's how they make telrads Every thing's so much clearer now.
Be Well
Grey


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Greyhaven]
      #5663803 - 02/05/13 03:42 PM

Quote:

Oh, So that's how they make telrads Every thing's so much clearer now.
Be Well
Grey






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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #5663805 - 02/05/13 03:44 PM

Quote:

A couple of old warhorses...

I removed the on/off lever to prevent accidental turnon (happened a lot when storing/transporting.)

Dewing problem solved with heavy duty flocking paper.

Keep track of which goes where with "X"

Just noticed...you can see one of them mounted on my Fujinon 25x150 binocular in my avatar.





Bill,
Prevents dew, but also prevents the use of the Telrad as a right-angle finder.
However, at least your dewshield won't fall off. I used one from.....that always fell off when it got cold.


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Greyhaven]
      #5663807 - 02/05/13 03:47 PM

Quote:

Oh, So that's how they make telrads Every thing's so much clearer now.
Be Well
Grey




That's how we fix the deficiencies of an otherwise great product...



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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5663818 - 02/05/13 03:52 PM Attachment (5 downloads)

Quote:


Bill,
Prevents dew, but also prevents the use of the Telrad as a right-angle finder.
However, at least your dewshield won't fall off. I used one from.....that always fell off when it got cold.




Well, I'm pretty pragmatic...whatever works.

OK...fess up, also use multi reticle finders....use Telrad base.



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csrlice12
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5663860 - 02/05/13 04:12 PM

On the very rare occasion my Telrad has dewed up, I use the highly technical Kleenex wipe method; in a pinch, I can use the finger wipe method.

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csrlice12
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #5663863 - 02/05/13 04:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Bill,
Prevents dew, but also prevents the use of the Telrad as a right-angle finder.
However, at least your dewshield won't fall off. I used one from.....that always fell off when it got cold.




Well, I'm pretty pragmatic...whatever works.

OK...fess up, also use multi reticle finders....use Telrad base.






It's worse then that!! Somebody sawed your scope in half!!


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Mr. Bill
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5663882 - 02/05/13 04:22 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


Bill,
Prevents dew, but also prevents the use of the Telrad as a right-angle finder.
However, at least your dewshield won't fall off. I used one from.....that always fell off when it got cold.




Well, I'm pretty pragmatic...whatever works.

OK...fess up, also use multi reticle finders....use Telrad base.






It's worse then that!! Somebody sawed your scope in half!!






Actually, this is going to Australia on a "walkabout". Just trying to minimize the bulk.

Edited by Mr. Bill (02/05/13 06:42 PM)


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5664371 - 02/05/13 09:43 PM

Quote:

On the very rare occasion my Telrad has dewed up, I use the highly technical Kleenex wipe method; in a pinch, I can use the finger wipe method.




That must be how Telrads behave in Colorado. Here in Maryland, it's a very rare occasion when the Telrad doesn't dew up. Only active dew control can prevent it ... or maybe a 20+ mph breeze.


Mike


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Mr. Bill]
      #5664396 - 02/05/13 09:58 PM

Quote:

A couple of old warhorses...

I removed the on/off lever to prevent accidental turnon (happened a lot when storing/transporting.)

Dewing problem solved with heavy duty flocking paper.

Keep track of which goes where with "X"

Just noticed...you can see one of them mounted on my Fujinon 25x150 binocular in my avatar.





Bill, Thats excellent.
Binocular Telrads!
Why didn't I think of that....
One for each eye

Steve


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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: stevew]
      #5664481 - 02/05/13 11:18 PM

I wish I had binocular Telrads

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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5664667 - 02/06/13 05:48 AM Attachment (3 downloads)

Quote:

I'm very much goal oriented when I take the trouble to travel 100 miles round trip to my dark site. If newbies or my family are there, I might take them on a rambling tour of showpiece objects from memory. Or if I'm home, I might do the same. But when I'm on task at the dark site, I'm loaded for bear and focused on the hunt




The round trip to our site is 140 miles, we have a house there where my larger scopes live. It's a blue zone on the desert side of the mountains at about 4000 feet where it is most often clear. I get out there a lot.

I have been doing this long enough that I can just enjoy the night sky in a relaxed manner. Naked eye and binoculars are on the menu, a 3 or 4 inch refractor is on the menu as is some sort of a larger Dobsonian. There is time to savor it all.

Jon Isaacs


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Sarkikos
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Re: Should I Get Rid of the Telrad? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5664729 - 02/06/13 07:13 AM

Good for you!

My time is precious at the dark site, since I only go there once or twice a month, on a good month. Usually when I am there, I have a definite list of objects and a plan of attack.

I feel that I've accomplished my mission if I locate and observe 20 to 30 objects I've never seen before. No goto or DSCs, so this takes laser-like focus on the task.


Mike


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