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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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Jeff Morgan
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Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths?
      #5648306 - 01/28/13 02:15 PM

Some of you may recall a recent thread on this forum 22 pan vs 22t4. Once again it made me aware that I need to evaluate what I am using in that focal range. Currently, it is the venerable 22 Panoptic. It is superb in the longer focal ratio scopes I prefer. But my rational brain realizes I should acquire a 22 Nagler T4 for comparison, especially in light of how much I loved the 17T4.

I finally realized the root of my procrastination - the feeling that Tele Vue may be close to offering something substantially better in that range. After Delos there was speculation on a "Panoptic Makeover". Or perhaps even lighter Naglers (such as the revised 20mm model). But is that justified? I offer this timeline, based on product announcements in Tele Vue ads from Sky & Telescope:

- 22mm Nagler Type 4, June 1999;
- 31mm Nagler Type 5, December 1999;
- 26mm Nagler Type 5, October 2002;
- 24mm Panoptic, February 2003; and
- 41mm Panoptic, June 2003.

For the last ten years, Tele Vue has introduced nothing longer than 22mm. Most of their work has been in the short (and very short) focal lengths.

Could one imply that we are "due" to see some introductions in the longer lengths, or has Tele Vue lost interest?


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BillP
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5648369 - 01/28/13 02:37 PM

Frankly, I don't think they have the interest. They can always argue that they have existing, excellent eyepieces in long focal lengths. 55 Plossl, 41/35 Pan, 31/26 Naglers, so why need more?

I of course agree with you. When new designs come out using latest glasses and coatings and production techniques, I feel that these new lines should as standard fare offer a 1.25" and 2" focal length that maximizes the barrel size. Neither the Ethos or the Delos do this and frankly, IMO it is a shame. Of course there may be the argument that the particular design is not practical to get to those longest focal lengths. To that I counter then offer a different design with the same optical parameters of ER and AFOV that does reach the max TFOV and brand it the same -- so give us a 72 degree Delos in 23mm or so and a 100 degree Ethos in 25mm or so. Don't care that the optical design might depart from the others as long as the AFOV, ER, and level of correction is maintained. This way we can build our eyepiece stalls with consistency. I know I was very happy when TV came out with the Delos line, then got bumbed when I would have to get a 24 pan to max my 1/25" capabilitiy. Don't want to do that and have a context switch like that...so not a candidate line of EPs for me.


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Grava T
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: BillP]
      #5648551 - 01/28/13 03:54 PM

I think most, if not all, Televue eyepieces are designed to be used with their own refractors or at least short focal length newtonians. Medium to high power eyepieces are more useful I would imagine. Hard to improve on the low power choices already offered by TV.

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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Grava T]
      #5648599 - 01/28/13 04:13 PM

Quote:

I think most, if not all, Televue eyepieces are designed to be used with their own refractors or at least short focal length newtonians. Medium to high power eyepieces are more useful I would imagine. Hard to improve on the low power choices already offered by TV.






Personally I am fine the existing eyepieces. I have a set of eyepieces from TeleVue that do the job. The 31mm Nagler is a fine eyepiece. To me, new and different are new objects in the sky to observe, new sites to observe from. A trip 5 hours down the road to the Baja Dark Skies Inn is going to make far more difference in what I see than a new eyepiece or two.

Jon


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BillP
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Grava T]
      #5648646 - 01/28/13 04:34 PM

Quote:

I think most, if not all, Televue eyepieces are designed to be used with their own refractors or at least short focal length newtonians. Medium to high power eyepieces are more useful I would imagine. Hard to improve on the low power choices already offered by TV.




Hmmm...

1. Is the 24mm Panoptic improvable (as TV's max TFOV 1.25" wide field eyepiece)? I would say easily yes! Eye relief is way too short on this eyepiece. Needs to be 20mm. So there's a much needed improvement.

2. 41Pan/31T5 - Are these both entirely "perfect"? Nope. First off...they are massive and heavy. Improvements can be to lighten them and decrease their physical size. Plus, I need a 2" 100 degree eyepiece that gives widest TFOV capable with a 2" barrel. So not necessarily an improvement of these as much of a missing eyepiece.

Always room for improvement.


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turtle86
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: BillP]
      #5648705 - 01/28/13 04:57 PM

I really would've liked a 25mm Ethos but I'm pretty happy with the 31mm Nagler. It sure seemed stupid big when I first got it but I've since gotten used to its size and weight. I've definitely gotten accustomed to its great wide field views.

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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: BillP]
      #5648709 - 01/28/13 04:58 PM

Quote:

Plus, I need a 2" 100 degree eyepiece that gives widest TFOV capable with a 2" barrel. So not necessarily an improvement of these as much of a missing eyepiece




I am OK with 82 degree eyepieces. ES filled in the 25mm 100 degree. I am not sure there is room in the barrel for TeleVue to build an eyepiece 100 degree 25mm of sufficient quality to please Uncle Al. The 31mm Nagler uses all of a 2 inch barrel but only has an effective field stop diameter of 42mm.

In any event, I don't "need" any eyepieces but they are fun to have.

Jon


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BillP
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5648738 - 01/28/13 05:12 PM

Quote:

I am not sure there is room in the barrel for TeleVue to build an eyepiece 100 degree 25mm of sufficient quality to please Uncle Al.




I have heard that expressed before. However, another way of saying that is "I can't make a 25mm 100 degree eyepiece of sufficient quality." If they really can't make it then should they be considered a leader in the industry? Can't have it both ways...I'm a leader and I can't do stuff so let other innovate...but I'm the leader, etc. Contradictory.


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tomcody
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: BillP]
      #5648773 - 01/28/13 05:26 PM



1. Is the 24mm Panoptic improvable (as TV's max TFOV 1.25" wide field eyepiece)? I would say easily yes! Eye relief is way too short on this eyepiece. Needs to be 20mm. So there's a much needed improvement.




That's only your opinion, I find 15mm eye relief to be Perfect! If you want 20mm? buy a Delos.
Rex


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Mike W
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: BillP]
      #5648789 - 01/28/13 05:34 PM

I agree on the eye relief ( there's worse offenders for sure) but I don't wonder if increasing the eye relief wouldn't also increase the size. As a favorite for binoviewers as they are, they might shoot themselves in the foot.
Quote:

Quote:

I think most, if not all, Televue eyepieces are designed to be used with their own refractors or at least short focal length newtonians. Medium to high power eyepieces are more useful I would imagine. Hard to improve on the low power choices already offered by TV.




Hmmm...

1. Is the 24mm Panoptic improvable (as TV's max TFOV 1.25" wide field eyepiece)? I would say easily yes! Eye relief is way too short on this eyepiece. Needs to be 20mm. So there's a much needed improvement.

2. 41Pan/31T5 - Are these both entirely "perfect"? Nope. First off...they are massive and heavy. Improvements can be to lighten them and decrease their physical size. Plus, I need a 2" 100 degree eyepiece that gives widest TFOV capable with a 2" barrel. So not necessarily an improvement of these as much of a missing eyepiece.

Always room for improvement.




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rockethead26
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: tomcody]
      #5648805 - 01/28/13 05:40 PM

Quote:



1. Is the 24mm Panoptic improvable (as TV's max TFOV 1.25" wide field eyepiece)? I would say easily yes! Eye relief is way too short on this eyepiece. Needs to be 20mm. So there's a much needed improvement.




That's only your opinion, I find 15mm eye relief to be Perfect! If you want 20mm? buy a Delos.
Rex




Uh, they don't make a 24mm Delos. I think that's the point.


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tomcody
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: rockethead26]
      #5648819 - 01/28/13 05:45 PM

Quote:

Quote:



1. Is the 24mm Panoptic improvable (as TV's max TFOV 1.25" wide field eyepiece)? I would say easily yes! Eye relief is way too short on this eyepiece. Needs to be 20mm. So there's a much needed improvement.




That's only your opinion, I find 15mm eye relief to be Perfect! If you want 20mm? buy a Delos.
Rex




Uh, they don't make a 24mm Delos. I think that's the point.



And they don't make a 24 Panoptic with 20mm of eye relief. It would make more sense to suggest a 24mm Delos , a line with constant 20mm eye relief than to change a proven design with a good following. That's the point.
Rex


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sniperpride
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: tomcody]
      #5648944 - 01/28/13 06:43 PM

Except that they dont intend to make a Delos at longer focal lengths.
The point of this was to upgrade current existing focal lengths. Panoptics, long FL naglers.


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Starman1
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: BillP]
      #5648979 - 01/28/13 06:59 PM

Quote:

Frankly, I don't think they have the interest. They can always argue that they have existing, excellent eyepieces in long focal lengths. 55 Plossl, 41/35 Pan, 31/26 Naglers, so why need more?

I of course agree with you. When new designs come out using latest glasses and coatings and production techniques, I feel that these new lines should as standard fare offer a 1.25" and 2" focal length that maximizes the barrel size. Neither the Ethos or the Delos do this and frankly, IMO it is a shame. Of course there may be the argument that the particular design is not practical to get to those longest focal lengths. To that I counter then offer a different design with the same optical parameters of ER and AFOV that does reach the max TFOV and brand it the same -- so give us a 72 degree Delos in 23mm or so and a 100 degree Ethos in 25mm or so. Don't care that the optical design might depart from the others as long as the AFOV, ER, and level of correction is maintained. This way we can build our eyepiece stalls with consistency. I know I was very happy when TV came out with the Delos line, then got bummed when I would have to get a 24 pan to max my 1/25" capabilitiy. Don't want to do that and have a context switch like that...so not a candidate line of EPs for me.



1) The Panoptic line (41/35/27/24/19) complements the Delos (17.3/14/12/10/8/6/4.5/3.5), so why should TV come out with longer Delos?
2) A Delos 23 would be 2" or have vignetting issues.
3) A 25 Ethos (not changing the internal design) would have poorer edge correction and significant vignetting, which TV won't do, not to mention being ridiculously expensive if the same glass types were used (not to mention weight). ES made a lot of compromises to introduce the 25 (it doesn't have the same internal design as the 20/14/9), and the market may say those compromises were justified and OK, but TeleVue has already said they won't. So you won't see a 25 Ethos.
4) Likewise, the Nagler line is fairly complete. Mix T5s and T6s, and you have: 31/26/20/16/13/11/9/7/5/3.5/2.5 which really kind of covers it.

With positive/negative eyepiece designs now dominating the market in wide and ultrawide fields, you have to look at how an eyepiece would maximize the field stop for the barrel diameter. Would a 1.25" 23mm Delos be practical if it had to be, say, several ounces heavier and a couple inches larger in diameter and maybe a lot more expensive? Then everyone would say, "I don't see why anyone would get this when a 21 Ethos has a wider true field and weighs less......"
Sometimes the largest practical field stop for a given diameter is smaller than the inside diameter of the barrel. Even Pentax went with 2" for 30 and 40mm XWs. The 31mm Nagler has a 42mm field stop when the inside diameter of the barrel is at least 46.5mm. Would you contemplate buying a 31mm eyepiece a pound heavier and 2" larger in diameter just to get a slightly larger field stop? Or an eyepiece with vignetting and poorer edge correction to keep the size the same but expand the field stop?

Probably not. And neither would I if I knew that compromise had been made.

I could see some company, and it probably would be TeleVue, coming out with a line of long eye relief 82 degree eyepieces. That would heavily expand the market for 82 degree eyepieces, whether they had field stops of the I.D. of the barrels or not.

Edited by Starman1 (01/28/13 07:00 PM)


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Paul G
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: tomcody]
      #5649093 - 01/28/13 07:52 PM

Quote:



1. Is the 24mm Panoptic improvable (as TV's max TFOV 1.25" wide field eyepiece)? I would say easily yes! Eye relief is way too short on this eyepiece. Needs to be 20mm. So there's a much needed improvement.




That's only your opinion, I find 15mm eye relief to be Perfect!
Rex




I also find it very comfortable, no need for more eye relief, particularly if that means the eyepiece would be physically larger.


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Grava T
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: BillP]
      #5649163 - 01/28/13 08:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I think most, if not all, Televue eyepieces are designed to be used with their own refractors or at least short focal length newtonians. Medium to high power eyepieces are more useful I would imagine. Hard to improve on the low power choices already offered by TV.




Hmmm...

1. Is the 24mm Panoptic improvable (as TV's max TFOV 1.25" wide field eyepiece)? I would say easily yes! Eye relief is way too short on this eyepiece. Needs to be 20mm. So there's a much needed improvement.

2. 41Pan/31T5 - Are these both entirely "perfect"? Nope. First off...they are massive and heavy. Improvements can be to lighten them and decrease their physical size. Plus, I need a 2" 100 degree eyepiece that gives widest TFOV capable with a 2" barrel. So not necessarily an improvement of these as much of a missing eyepiece.

Always room for improvement.




Point taken and I guess there is always room for improvement but it's like re-recording "Stairway to Heaven" to make it better. Why would you want to?


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johnnyha
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: BillP]
      #5649327 - 01/28/13 09:48 PM

Quote:

I have heard that expressed before. However, another way of saying that is "I can't make a 25mm 100 degree eyepiece of sufficient quality." If they really can't make it then should they be considered a leader in the industry? Can't have it both ways...I'm a leader and I can't do stuff so let other innovate...but I'm the leader, etc. Contradictory.




I think you might be confusing quality with quantity Bill. The decision to NOT make the 25E is what makes Nagler an industry leader. The 21 Ethos was an innovation, the 25 ES 100 is a knockoff that makes compromises as Don has pointed out, compromises that TV is unwilling to make.


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John F
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5649426 - 01/28/13 10:51 PM

Jeff,

I've owned both the 22mm Pan and T4 Nagler in the past. Yes, the T4 has a larger and somewhat more immersive field than the Pan does. However, it weighs 8 ounces more and has that click-stop eyeguard which some observers don't like.

The Pan on the other hand still has a fairly large TFOV and AFOV, 15mm of eye relief, and is not too large or heavy. And all around, it is one of the most relaxing to observe with eyepieces that I've ever used.

If you already have one, and have been very pleased with it, count yourself fortunate and just keep using it. If you get the 22mm T4 then you may start having doubts about whether you should have got 21mm Ethos instead.

John Finnan


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faackanders2
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5649468 - 01/28/13 11:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I have heard that expressed before. However, another way of saying that is "I can't make a 25mm 100 degree eyepiece of sufficient quality." If they really can't make it then should they be considered a leader in the industry? Can't have it both ways...I'm a leader and I can't do stuff so let other innovate...but I'm the leader, etc. Contradictory.




I think you might be confusing quality with quantity Bill. The decision to NOT make the 25E is what makes Nagler an industry leader. The 21 Ethos was an innovation, the 25 ES 100 is a knockoff that makes compromises as Don has pointed out, compromises that TV is unwilling to make.




Industry leaders innovate and push the envelope (like TV did when they created the first Ethos). Sometimes compromizes have to be accepted (like Nagler zooms don't have 82 AFOV).


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Starman1
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5649541 - 01/29/13 12:08 AM

Nearly every eyepiece has compromises of some sort, at least in one or more design parameters.
There is no such thing as a perfect eyepiece, both in terms of personal preferences (eye relief, apparent field), design (weight, size, complexity of manufacture), and optical parameters (amount of AMD, RD, astigmatism, lateral color, transmission, etc.).
I've been doing this a while (50 years this year), and I've never seen the perfect eyepiece. And if some company made it, it would be too expensive for any of us to afford it anyway.
So we deal with eyepieces that have imperfections; some imposed by the imperfect viewing device (the eye) and others by the laws of optics (the inability to solve for both zero AMD and zero RD at the same time), and still others the marketplace (price, weight, size).

I last worked on the Eyepiece Buyer's Guide in 2009 and there were nearly 1600 different eyepieces available from 2mm to 56mm (and a few specialty eyepieces even longer), and I've started the process of re-doing it for 2013 and along the way I'm discovering a lot of companies have disappeared. Very few companies have expanded their lines.

I hope TeleVue continues to innovate. I hope that many Chinese companies successfully market their wares. There are a few up-and-comers. I'm not sure we ever needed the plethora of offerings that were around in 2009, but I don't want to see too major a drop in the number of choices, either. We all benefit from innovation and competition. State of the Art will always cost more, and it will never be for everyone. But with larger production comes lower costs and more sales, so perhaps we could deal with a few less players and fewer choices. Then, perhaps, our favorite companies might make a profit and keep innovating.


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Grava T]
      #5649644 - 01/29/13 02:23 AM

Quote:

I think most, if not all, Televue eyepieces are designed to be used with their own refractors or at least short focal length newtonians. Medium to high power eyepieces are more useful I would imagine. Hard to improve on the low power choices already offered by TV.




When I started the thread, I knew there would be no "answers", but was hopeful of a robust discussion and it has happened.

Not to be argumentative, put a few points stand out:

- As the old saying goes, "you don't know what you don't know". While it may be hard to imagine improvements in the longer focal length offerings, Tele Vue has a rather pronounced capability to surprise us. Before the first Nagler design, who could have guessed it could be that good?

- Many (some ) thought the Radian line could not be improved. Now we have Delos.

- Granted that for the most part long focal length eyepieces already have good eye relief, but even a simple weight reduction is a huge improvement for the owners of small scopes (like Tele Vue refractors) and even the medium ones (case study: 20mm Nagler Type 2 to Type 5). Perhaps another area for improvement would be Pincushion, one of the frequent knocks against the Panoptic line.

- There has been some who suggest the low power/long focal lengths are not so important for the faster focal ratio scopes of today. I would say that Tele Vue historically has been a player in the fast refractor market. At f/5 one still can productively use a 35mm eyepiece. Indeed, Al Nagler says that for refractors there is no effective upper limit on exit pupil. And f/5 is perhaps the most common focal ratio for reflectors too.

- I was wondering if I missed something in the timeline, and it appears no one caught an error. Point being, ten years is an exceptionally long period of time for a designer in the prime of his life to be absent from an important market segment. Granted Al Nagler has provided for the continuity of the company, but ten years is still a long time from a company perspective too.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5649799 - 01/29/13 07:39 AM

Quote:


- There has been some who suggest the low power/long focal lengths are not so important for the faster focal ratio scopes of today. I would say that Tele Vue historically has been a player in the fast refractor market. At f/5 one still can productively use a 35mm eyepiece. Indeed, Al Nagler says that for refractors there is no effective upper limit on exit pupil. And f/5 is perhaps the most common focal ratio for reflectors too.




Consider this:

The 31mmm Nagler, the 35mm and 41mm Panoptics are good enough that the edge corrections issues are not the eyepiece but rather the telescope. The center sharpness issues are not the limitations of the eyepiece but rather the resolution of the observer's eye.

If you want that perfect sharp edge in a refractor, particularly around F/5, the eyepiece is not the problem, it's the telescope. Uncle Al has this one covered nicely, start with a NP-101 or NP-127, add the 31mm Nagler and it's about as close to heaven as we mortals will ever get.

The 42mm field stop of the 31mm Nagler means the best case scenario is an increase of 10% TFoV, not a lot.. If that last 10% is desired, there is the 41mm Panoptic.

Jon


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BillP
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: tomcody]
      #5649936 - 01/29/13 09:52 AM

Quote:



1. Is the 24mm Panoptic improvable (as TV's max TFOV 1.25" wide field eyepiece)? I would say easily yes! Eye relief is way too short on this eyepiece. Needs to be 20mm. So there's a much needed improvement.




That's only your opinion, I find 15mm eye relief to be Perfect! If you want 20mm? buy a Delos.
Rex




I disagree. There are many many posts of eyeglass wearers who feel the 24Pan is not quite sufficient and needs extended eye relief to be practical for them. So it very ddefinitely needs to be improved. Also, Tele Vue has no other offering of a 1.25" wide-field eyepiece which maximizes the TFOV capable from the barrel and also has eye relief sufficient for eyeglass wearers. The 24 Pan and 32 Plossl are their only two offerings that maximize the TFOV potential of the 1.25" barrel. Since the 32 Plossl is not a wide-field this leaves only the 24 Pan. The Delos is not an option since they offer no 1.25" Delos that maximizes the TFOV potential of the barrel.


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BillP
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5649939 - 01/29/13 09:54 AM

Quote:

...the 25 ES 100 is a knockoff that makes compromises as Don has pointed out, compromises that TV is unwilling to make.




What other 25mm 100 degree design is it knocking off?? The ES offering is an innovation for the consumer. One can't claim "knockoff" unless one has privy to the optical designs of both...which no one here has. FYI, all designs have compromises, including Tele Vue designs. It would not be logical to say that TV's compromises in a design are somehow not compromises and only compromises of other vendor are.

If the "issue" is that Tele Vue can't use their current Ethos design to get a good image at a 25mm Focal length, then the solution is not to throw up one's hands and say it can't be done...instead the solution is to create the design which can achieve 25mm at 100 degrees to their satisfaction. Many consumers obviously desire a 100 degree eyepiece which maximizes the TFOV capability of a 2" barrel. IMO, one can't claim "unwilling to compromise" as a reason. The real intent I am sure is that they are unwilling to utilize the Ethos design for a 25mm 100 degree eyepiece because the design can't maintain optical performance goals of the Ethos series. This is the more accurate statement and far from a statement saying it is not feasible. The solution for TV if the Ethos design can't handle 25mm acceptably is to create a new 100 degree design to handle the 25mm and longer focal lengths...so keeping with their past naming would be an Ethos Type-2.

Edited by BillP (01/29/13 11:54 AM)


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turtle86
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5649972 - 01/29/13 10:13 AM

Quote:

A 25 Ethos (not changing the internal design) would have poorer edge correction and significant vignetting, which TV won't do, not to mention being ridiculously expensive if the same glass types were used (not to mention weight). ES made a lot of compromises to introduce the 25 (it doesn't have the same internal design as the 20/14/9), and the market may say those compromises were justified and OK, but TeleVue has already said they won't. So you won't see a 25 Ethos.




This has me curious as to how well the ES 100 25mm performs in comparison to the other ES 100 eyepieces.

A 25mm Ethos would've been nice, but only if Televue had been able to maintain the image quality of the 21mm Ethos and 31mm Nagler. For my purposes, not really much point in springing for a 25mm Ethos if the image quality wouldn't have been as good as the 31mm Nagler. Sure, all eyepiece designs involve compromises, the tricky part is where to draw the line...


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FirstSight
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: turtle86]
      #5650047 - 01/29/13 10:58 AM

Quote:


A 25mm Ethos would've been nice, but only if Televue had been able to maintain the image quality of the 21mm Ethos and 31mm Nagler.




It's probably technically feasible to make a 25mm Ethos and satisfy all the same performance characteristics required of the rest of the line. What's probably not feasible is to do so without requiring an unacceptably bulky, heavy package size. It seems that for any given AFOV, past a certain focal length the required bulk and size begins to ramp up exponentially...consider how dramatically the 31T5 bulks up compared to the 26T5 or the 21E compared to the 17E. Would you buy and use a 25E only slightly smaller and lighter than a pony keg of beer? OK, so that hypothetical is a bit of an exaggeration in degree, but is correct in principle.


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Starman1
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: turtle86]
      #5650056 - 01/29/13 11:02 AM

Quote:


Sure, all eyepiece designs involve compromises, the tricky part is where to draw the line...



Indeed.

Take the issue of rectilinear distortion (usually pincushion). You cannot eliminate it in ultrawide field eyepieces without introducing significant angular magnification distortion, which is worse, visually. Add to the discussion that the human eye sees a certain percentage of RD as undistorted if looking sideways at the edge.

As an observer, I'd rather they left in the RD and eliminated AMD, which is pretty much what TeleVue has done (and other designers as well).

Those who cannot abide either form of distortion can achieve their goals of orthoscopy by sticking with narrow fields of view. But, as the field widens, you either get one form of distortion or the other, or both (many binoculars I've tested have some of both as a mistaken attempt to have each form be at as low a percentage as possible).

So as good an example of compromise as can be illustrated. Where does a designer draw the line?
Other areas of concern are weight (that's a big one), astigmatism, chromatic aberration, field curvature, spherical aberration, interaction with the optics, vignetting, light scatter, transmission, spectral balance, etc.--including PRICE. And ALL of those involve compromises.


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dcoyle
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5650137 - 01/29/13 11:48 AM

Someone commented something to the effect that the TV eyepieces are designed to be optimised for the TV refractors. I would point out that the widefield's ability to deal with the low ratios of relectors is not an accident.

In responding to questions about the original Paracorr, when I told him I was using it with a Coulter 13.1" f/4.5, Al Nagler said that he had designed the Paracorr to be optimised for that very setup.

I don't think reflectors are ignored at TV.

Dan


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Tom TAdministrator

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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: BillP]
      #5650409 - 01/29/13 02:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I am not sure there is room in the barrel for TeleVue to build an eyepiece 100 degree 25mm of sufficient quality to please Uncle Al.




I have heard that expressed before. However, another way of saying that is "I can't make a 25mm 100 degree eyepiece of sufficient quality." If they really can't make it then should they be considered a leader in the industry? Can't have it both ways...I'm a leader and I can't do stuff so let other innovate...but I'm the leader, etc. Contradictory.




Completely disagree.

It's easy to make a widefield eyepiece. Not so easy to make a *BLEEP* free widefield eyepiece.

Perhaps it simply isn't possible to make one to certain design specs.

Just because something can be done does not mean it should be done Bill. Leading the field in quality may involve realizing that if it's not possible to do it well, they don't want to do it at all. There is such a thing as maintaining standards.


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johnnyha
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Tom T]
      #5650492 - 01/29/13 02:55 PM

That's was my point too, surely TV can MAKE a 25mm 100 degree eyepiece - they can also make a 30mm 100 degree, or a 35mm 120 degree eyepiece - but how would they be an industry leader producing what they feel are sub-par eyepieces?

As far as the ES 100 line being a knockoff of Ethos, I though x-ray photos had long ago proven the obvious to be true?


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turtle86
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: dcoyle]
      #5650639 - 01/29/13 03:56 PM

Quote:

Someone commented something to the effect that the TV eyepieces are designed to be optimised for the TV refractors. I would point out that the widefield's ability to deal with the low ratios of relectors is not an accident.

In responding to questions about the original Paracorr, when I told him I was using it with a Coulter 13.1" f/4.5, Al Nagler said that he had designed the Paracorr to be optimised for that very setup.

I don't think reflectors are ignored at TV.

Dan




Totally agree. And with the Paracorr II, big Dobs that are sub-f/4 are now quite doable.


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turtle86
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Tom T]
      #5650645 - 01/29/13 04:06 PM

Quote:



Completely disagree.

It's easy to make a widefield eyepiece. Not so easy to make a *BLEEP* free widefield eyepiece.

Perhaps it simply isn't possible to make one to certain design specs.

Just because something can be done does not mean it should be done Bill. Leading the field in quality may involve realizing that if it's not possible to do it well, they don't want to do it at all. There is such a thing as maintaining standards.




Well said. Sometimes the best move is no move.


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BillP
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Tom T]
      #5650701 - 01/29/13 04:32 PM

Quote:

Just because something can be done does not mean it should be done Bill. Leading the field in quality may involve realizing that if it's not possible to do it well, they don't want to do it at all. There is such a thing as maintaining standards.




Well we are not talking about making atomic bombs here

Let's be clear that when one says "it's not possible to do it well" this is really saying "it's not possible for us to do it well". I whole-heartedly disagree that it is not feasible to make a 25mm 100 degree eyepiece "well". I also would not agree that every other eyepiece out there without the TV branding is not made "well" and does not perform "well". On the contrary, the performance differences between the TVs and other brandings is so small that it is a difference between one being B+ and B++. So many very much in the "well" category together.

If one company does not "choose" to make a 25mm 100 degree this does not mean it is not feasible, nor that other brands if they have them are not "well" as is being implied. That is brand-loyalty speaking and not objective treatments.

Like I tell my staff..."Easy for user, hard for us, and no such thing as can't." What people have been expressing on a 25mm 100 degree not being possible to do "well" is IMO just blind-speak. Anything is possible if you are innovative enough. Besides, many good reports on the ES 25 100 anyway. Certainly fits in the "well" category unless I have missed something recently. One man's vision of perfection is not anothers, nor should it ever be. One size does not fit all either. One way or the highway is also not a good motto to live by.

IMO, TV has not forsaken long focal lengths, they just have a peculiar mindset that if a specific design cannot extend all the way, they just stop it there and do not produce alternate designs to get to a full range of focal lengths. The Naglers were of course not like this as the T6 design for the shorter focal lengths, then the T5s for the rest and the T4 for longer ER. So they have abandoned it seems paying attention to a full range of focal lengths for a given class of eyepiece with the 72s (Delos) and 100s (Ethos). Sad IMO.


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: BillP]
      #5650790 - 01/29/13 05:29 PM

Quote:

IMO, TV has not forsaken long focal lengths, they just have a peculiar mindset that if a specific design cannot extend all the way, they just stop it there and do not produce alternate designs to get to a full range of focal lengths. The Naglers were of course not like this as the T6 design for the shorter focal lengths, then the T5s for the rest and the T4 for longer ER. So they have abandoned it seems paying attention to a full range of focal lengths for a given class of eyepiece with the 72s (Delos) and 100s (Ethos). Sad IMO.




OK. I'm ready for the Panoptic Type 2, Type 3, and Type 4's. The focal plane of each variant is matched to the focal plane curvature of refractors, reflectors, and Schmidt-Casses respectively for the tightest possible star images across the entire field.

Of course some of use would have to buy two (or three) copies of each variant ...


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bdcmd
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: BillP]
      #5651019 - 01/29/13 07:42 PM

Quote:

Anything is possible if you are innovative enough.

IMO, TV has not forsaken long focal lengths, they just have a peculiar mindset that if a specific design cannot extend all the way, they just stop it there and do not produce alternate designs to get to a full range of focal lengths. So they have abandoned it seems paying attention to a full range of focal lengths for a given class of eyepiece with the 72s (Delos) and 100s (Ethos). Sad IMO.



I wonder what the R&D budget for a completely new design 25mm/100° eyepiece would be? And would it be feasible for a small company like Televue to develop something like that for a rather limited market? Probably similar considerations for 2" versions of the Delos at longer focal lengths, although I would think the market for a replacement for the Panoptics would be greater. Difficult to raise that R&D money and justify spending it if the ability to recoup that investment is limited by having a very short time period before reverse engineered, B+ quality competitive products hit the street at substantially lower prices. Still, it wouldn't surprise me if TV comes out with new developments on their latest designs at some point. But, I suspect they will do it on THEIR time, at THEIR standards, for a price THEY can live with. In the meantime, we will just have to struggle on with what we have. Sad, IMO.


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Lt 26
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: bdcmd]
      #5651051 - 01/29/13 07:58 PM

I heard they already developed a 25E but it keeps snapping everbrights.

Dereck


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Scanning4Comets
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Lt 26]
      #5651089 - 01/29/13 08:20 PM

http://www.televue.com/Pdf/Astronomy_TVO_Article.pdf

Not 100 degrees, but TV ALMOST made a 25mm, (Top left corner on page #2)


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Tom TAdministrator

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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: BillP]
      #5651243 - 01/29/13 09:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Just because something can be done does not mean it should be done Bill. Leading the field in quality may involve realizing that if it's not possible to do it well, they don't want to do it at all. There is such a thing as maintaining standards.




Well we are not talking about making atomic bombs here




No we're talking optics.

A FAR more explosive field.

AHHH - The internet. Where everyone can be an expert. Every amateur on the planet has an opinion here. With an a-bomb, it'd be far simpler: we'd just have to agree if it exploded or not (maybe a discussion or two on yield...)

Back to the eyepiece. Question: Have you made one? If so, I'd love to see it. If not, then show me it can be done and (here's the kicker) for a reasonable cost with good quality and performance. Otherwise, with respect sir - you ain't got nuttin.

TV (or really *any* other company out there) aren't idiots. If they could make one that would turn them a profit (and not dilute their brand) - they would. It's as simple as that. Who knows? Maybe ones coming...

(And BTW - Brand loyalty? Seriously? You can do better than that... )


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: BillP]
      #5651436 - 01/30/13 12:11 AM

Quote:


Let's be clear that when one says "it's not possible to do it well" this is really saying "it's not possible for us to do it well". I whole-heartedly disagree that it is not feasible to make a 25mm 100 degree eyepiece "well".




Neither of us are optical designers so we are only guessing.

As an engineer, I do know that sometimes there are design constraints that really do limit what is possible. For example, a 38mm field stop will not fit in a 1.25 inch barrel.

These are negative-positive eyepieces and a good part of the optics have to fit inside the 2 inch diameter barrel. It's also clear that the positive section of these eyepieces must have quite long focal lengths, lenses that are significantly greater in diameter than 2 inches and the actual field stop is quite large. It is my understanding that the constraints of the 2 inch barrel size limit the 82 degree eyepieces to an effective 42mm field stop, I suspect that the 100 degree AFoV path requirements place a constraint that is even greater.

Jon


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Starman1
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5651446 - 01/30/13 12:20 AM

There are 1.25" eyepieces with 29mm field stops, a diameter larger than the inside diameter of the bottom barrel. How? Accept lower illumination of the edge that would be the case in a 1.25" eyepiece with a 27-27.5mm field stop.
As was said earlier--it's all about compromises and where one draws the line.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5651494 - 01/30/13 12:58 AM

Quote:

There are 1.25" eyepieces with 29mm field stops, a diameter larger than the inside diameter of the bottom barrel. How? Accept lower illumination of the edge that would be the case in a 1.25" eyepiece with a 27-27.5mm field stop.
As was said earlier--it's all about compromises and where one draws the line.




TeleVue seems to draw the line at about 27mm for a 1.25 inch barrel non-negative positive eyepieces. The 20mm Type 2 Nagler has a 27mm effective field stop diameter but the clear aperture of the field lens is 36mm...

Jon


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Sgt
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5651729 - 01/30/13 07:46 AM

Quote:


I could see some company, and it probably would be TeleVue, coming out with a line of long eye relief 82 degree eyepieces. That would heavily expand the market for 82 degree eyepieces, whether they had field stops of the I.D. of the barrels or not.




Thats what I was hoping for when I first caught wind of TV coming out with something after Ethos. Ultimately I was disappointed by the Delos because as far as I see, they just produced something that did the same as an eyepiece line around for years (the XW's). I continue to wait and hope.


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Tom TAdministrator

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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5651736 - 01/30/13 07:53 AM

Quote:

There are 1.25" eyepieces with 29mm field stops, a diameter larger than the inside diameter of the bottom barrel. How? Accept lower illumination of the edge that would be the case in a 1.25" eyepiece with a 27-27.5mm field stop.
As was said earlier--it's all about compromises and where one draws the line.




Ubetcha.


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BillP
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Tom T]
      #5651893 - 01/30/13 09:37 AM

Quote:

Back to the eyepiece. Question: Have you made one? If so, I'd love to see it. If not, then show me it can be done and (here's the kicker) for a reasonable cost with good quality and performance. Otherwise, with respect sir - you ain't got nuttin.

TV (or really *any* other company out there) aren't idiots. If they could make one that would turn them a profit (and not dilute their brand) - they would.




Ahhh...now the argument is changing. First it's "it can't be done" and now it's "to turn a profit"...fundamentally different reasons for not making one. Sorry..can't have cake and eat it too...so ain't got nuttin also

By your reasoning then, using the substantially appeal to authority fallacy you offered...

Back to the eyepiece... Question: Have you made one and failed Tom? If so, I'd love to see that failed attempt. If not, then show me how it can't be done and (here's the kicker) that it must be for an unreasonable cost and sacrificed quality and performance. Otherwise, with respect Tom - you ain't got nuttin.

The point it...forsaken long focal lengths. Yes, let's look at the facts (note - full range of focal lengths defined as from max TFOV 2" to at least 4mm)...

50-degree class - TV Plossls - available in FULL range of focal lengths - still alive and well

60-degree class - Radians - NOT available in full range of focal lengths - not doing so well, slowing dying.

68- degree class - TV Panoptics - NOT available in a full range of focal lengths - not doing so well, units are phasing out

72 degree class - Delos - NOT available in a full range of focal lengths - too new to determine longevity

82 degree class - Nagler - available in a full range of focal lengths - still alive and well

100 degree class - NOT avilable in a full range of focal lengths (missing a sole max TFOV 2" version) - too new to determine longevity.

So from the perspective of creating a line that can service all focal lengths to take advantage for TFOV capabiltity of the barrel to short plantary focal length...the lew lines from TV in the recent years fall short. As far as can a 25mm 100 degree EP be made well? If you say it can't then you obviousley should not be in that business as you won't be successful not being able to innovate to the needs of the consumer. As one looks over past successful lines that have stood the test of time, a full range of focal lengths seems to be a key factor. In the end, the consumer's will prevails as they speak with their pocketbook...and there sure is history showing its speak!


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MRNUTTY
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: BillP]
      #5652172 - 01/30/13 12:03 PM

Bill, not to waltz on in a lively discussion, as a consumer I don't require all focal lengths to be available in a single line from a single vendor to be a target for purchase. I am happy with 2 or more lines from that vendor, as long as the lines adequately serve their purpose; such as as Delos + Panoptic make an adequate solution for me.

Note: my superlatives may vary over time :-)

Edited by MRNUTTY (01/30/13 12:04 PM)


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Paul G
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: BillP]
      #5652189 - 01/30/13 12:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Back to the eyepiece. Question: Have you made one? If so, I'd love to see it. If not, then show me it can be done and (here's the kicker) for a reasonable cost with good quality and performance. Otherwise, with respect sir - you ain't got nuttin.

TV (or really *any* other company out there) aren't idiots. If they could make one that would turn them a profit (and not dilute their brand) - they would.




Ahhh...now the argument is changing. First it's "it can't be done" and now it's "to turn a profit"...fundamentally different reasons for not making one. Sorry..can't have cake and eat it too...so ain't got nuttin also

By your reasoning then, using the substantially appeal to authority fallacy you offered...

Back to the eyepiece... Question: Have you made one and failed Tom? If so, I'd love to see that failed attempt. If not, then show me how it can't be done and (here's the kicker) that it must be for an unreasonable cost and sacrificed quality and performance. Otherwise, with respect Tom - you ain't got nuttin.

The point it...forsaken long focal lengths. Yes, let's look at the facts (note - full range of focal lengths defined as from max TFOV 2" to at least 4mm)...

50-degree class - TV Plossls - available in FULL range of focal lengths - still alive and well

60-degree class - Radians - NOT available in full range of focal lengths - not doing so well, slowing dying.

68- degree class - TV Panoptics - NOT available in a full range of focal lengths - not doing so well, units are phasing out

72 degree class - Delos - NOT available in a full range of focal lengths - too new to determine longevity

82 degree class - Nagler - available in a full range of focal lengths - still alive and well

100 degree class - NOT avilable in a full range of focal lengths (missing a sole max TFOV 2" version) - too new to determine longevity.

So from the perspective of creating a line that can service all focal lengths to take advantage for TFOV capabiltity of the barrel to short plantary focal length...the lew lines from TV in the recent years fall short. As far as can a 25mm 100 degree EP be made well? If you say it can't then you obviousley should not be in that business as you won't be successful not being able to innovate to the needs of the consumer. As one looks over past successful lines that have stood the test of time, a full range of focal lengths seems to be a key factor. In the end, the consumer's will prevails as they speak with their pocketbook...and there sure is history showing its speak!




Lumping the Naglers together isn't appropriate. The type 4, 5, and 6 Naglers are three completely different designs, and none of them cover the full focal length range. The only design that does so is the Plossl. On various forums in the past Al Nagler and others from TeleVue have posted reasons why each of those designs maxes out at a certain focal length, usually due to size or performance constraints.

Tom brings up a good point as well, the eyepieces need to appeal to a large enough number of buyers to make a profit. With companies like ES knocking off designs it cuts some of the profit out of bringing out a new eyepiece, not as much incentive to push the envelope.


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Paul G
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: MRNUTTY]
      #5652196 - 01/30/13 12:15 PM

Quote:

Bill, not to waltz on in a lively discussion, as a consumer I don't require all focal lengths to be available in a single line from a single vendor to be a target for purchase. I am happy with 2 or more lines from that vendor, as long as the lines adequately serve their purpose; such as as Delos + Panoptic make an adequate solution for me.




This. The existing lines complement each other nicely. With TV I have 2 mm through 41 mm covered.


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: BillP]
      #5652284 - 01/30/13 01:05 PM

Quote:



50-degree class - TV Plossls - available in FULL range of focal lengths - still alive and well

60-degree class - Radians - NOT available in full range of focal lengths - not doing so well, slowing dying.

68- degree class - TV Panoptics - NOT available in a full range of focal lengths - not doing so well, units are phasing out

72 degree class - Delos - NOT available in a full range of focal lengths - too new to determine longevity

82 degree class - Nagler - available in a full range of focal lengths - still alive and well

100 degree class - NOT avilable in a full range of focal lengths (missing a sole max TFOV 2" version) - too new to determine longevity.






Perhaps TeleVue is hamstringing themselves by marketing the product name too tightly with the performance parameters (i.e., Delos is always 72 AFOV and 20mm eye relief). Relaxing these may be a way around the field stop limitations.

If a 23mm Delos "only" had 68 AFOV and 18mm eye relief I would still buy the thing, provided the field flatness and sharpness down to f/4 was there. That's where they really need to hold the line, a slight variation on AFOV and eye relief are only material to the most obsessive/compulsive among us.

And given the proven history of Tele Vue updating existing focal length designs (Naglers 9, 11, 12, 13, 16, and 20 come immediately to mind) and the timeline I laid out it would appear that the 22+ designs are long overdue for update.


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Tom TAdministrator

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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: BillP]
      #5652429 - 01/30/13 02:11 PM

Quote:


Ahhh...now the argument is changing. First it's "it can't be done" and now it's "to turn a profit"...fundamentally different reasons for not making one. Sorry..can't have cake and eat it too...so ain't got nuttin also






Oh bull Bill and you know it. Nothing's changed (either in my argument, or in the years since I was last an active poster here) Bottom line is that it simply does not matter if it can or can't be done (yet) or if it's not profitable. My point is that there could be many different reasons, and it's not necessarily the sole one that you're putting forward.



Quote:


Back to the eyepiece... Question: Have you made one and failed Tom? If so, I'd love to see that failed attempt. If not, then show me how it can't be done and (here's the kicker) that it must be for an unreasonable cost and sacrificed quality and performance.





And as per failure? Seriously Bill? Are you implying that I can't show you a failure? Geeze, I wish I was as talented as you seem to think I am. I fail at things all to often. How can you "prove" a negative Bill? Even if I showed you my attempt, why would that imply that it couldn't be done? The only conclusion that you could draw would be that I failed on that specific attempt.

Seriously - This is a rather pointless argument. History shows who innovates and who doesn't, pocketbooks determine market leaders. Sometimes they aren't the same folks. Unless you have FAR more power than I think you do, things don't happen according to your timetable. They certainly don't happen to mine.

I won't deny I ain't got nuttin. As long as you agree you don't either.

Anyway -

Quote:


So from the perspective of creating a line that can service all focal lengths





Having the eyepieces all in one line is a big deal to you? Really? It's never bothered me that I use different lines for different focal lengths. Heck, I even use different designs from different manufacturers. I must be a real heretic.

To me, looking at what you lay out just shows me that it takes time to successfully phase in a product line. I don't think you, I or Joe Internet can really predict the future here.

Just remember for the consumer's will to prevail, they need to have something to choose in the first place.

T


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BillP
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Tom T]
      #5652486 - 01/30/13 02:44 PM

Quote:

Oh bull Bill and you know it. Nothing's changed (either in my argument, or in the years since I was last an active poster here) Bottom line is that it simply does not matter if it can or can't be done (yet) or if it's not profitable. My point is that there could be many different reasons, and it's not necessarily the sole one that you're putting forward.






Where the who-ha is that coming from Tom? I'm not putting forth reasons why it is not being done. I'm arguing with others who are giving discrete reasons like "it can't be done, etc.". That's a bunch of horse-hockey and you know it!!

My whole argument from the getgo is that the "can't" be done argument is nonsense. I put forth a supposition of a probable real reason, that the particular prescription of the Ethos does not lend itself to a 25mm incarnation. So take or leave my supposition all you want. I don't care. My only argument is that it is nonsense that it "can't be done". And further, I never ever care what any vendor says on the topic. No disrespect at all to the vendor. I am the consumer and the consumer's needs rule. If one vendor doesn't do it for whatever reason, like everything in the free enterprise system, another will come along and satisfy the consumer requirement. As the old expression goes...those that can do and those that can't don't. In the context of this discussion it is those vendors who can innovate do and those that can't don't. Simple as that. So when one vendor refuses to take on the challenge, another will almost always rise to the occasion...the beauty of the free enterprise system. And ps, I for one, as a consumer, will not hand over the reigns of control over to vendors. The consumer rules in this system of ours and that way it shall stay with every breath I have. RC made a similar point a while back....consumers always get what they "let" the market give them (i.e., don't let the market rule the consumer). So just standing up for the rights we own as consumers and not letting any nay-saying "can't" suppliers have their way...not with my dollars! And pps, there are consumers who like mixed sets, and others that like matched sets. Not demanding that either bow down to the other as both approaches are valid and both are REQUIRED. Not wanting to limit one class of observer's freedoms for another class of observers. So that's my bottom line and not budging...anyone saying "can't" do something is not a can-do innovator and vendors do not set directions consumers do...period. Nuf said as far as I'm concerned

And there are plenty of posts here on CN showing very much how some hate mixed sets and others love matched sets. In the end, for me personally, don't care about the internal optical prescription too much as long as the ER and AFOV characteristics are consistent. e.g., 50 degree class for TV is composed of their Plossls and Nagler-Zooms. A perfect pairing. Similarly, the Naglers achieve the full range of focal lengths with multiple lens prescriptions...T6's and T5s...Ethos with Ethos and Ethos-SX and the glaring hole in the 25mm slot


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BillP
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5652512 - 01/30/13 02:56 PM

Quote:

Lumping the Naglers together isn't appropriate. The type 4, 5, and 6 Naglers are three completely different designs, and none of them cover the full focal length range.




I disagree with that...and so does the TV literature. The T6 design optimizes the 82 AFOV in shorter FLs, and the T5 design optimizes it for the longer FLs. This was and is the strategy they used. Then the T4 line was done to address those who need longer ER. So the Nagler T5 and T6 combination of prescriptions is the TV "solution" to a full range of 82 degree AFOV EPs with mid-ranged ER.

From the TV Site:

Why Are There 3 Types of Naglers?
To achieve the full magnification range over 82° apparent field of view requires two types: Nagler Type-5 with focal lengths of 31, 26, 20, 16mm and Nagler Type-6 with focal lengths of 13, 11, 9, 7, 5, 3.5, 2.5mm.

The Type-5 permits the largest true field possible (31mm has 42mm field stop), while the shorter focal length Type-6 models are parfocal, with similiar size and weight and all with a comfortable 12mm eye relief.

The Type-4 models feature about 18mm of eye relief and with the "instajust" eyeguard are best for eyeglass wearers or Dioptrx users in their 22, 17, 12mm focal length range. i]


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: BillP]
      #5652531 - 01/30/13 03:18 PM

Quote:

Plus, I need a 2" 100 degree eyepiece that gives widest TFOV capable with a 2" barrel.




So, what is your current eyepiece that fills this slot?

I was just reading where you said that for what you do, a 2mm exit pupil was about optimal. 2mm with a 21mm eyepiece is F/10.5. For anything faster, one needs a shorter focal length eyepiece to maintain that optimal exit pupil.

Jon


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Tom TAdministrator

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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: BillP]
      #5652545 - 01/30/13 03:28 PM

Quote:


My whole argument from the getgo is that the "can't" be done argument is nonsense. I put forth a supposition of a probable real reason, that the particular prescription of the Ethos does not lend itself to a 25mm incarnation. So take or leave my supposition all you want. I don't care. My only argument is that it is nonsense that it "can't be done".





So, even if it were to be shown to be completely impractical (due to size or cost) or perhaps even impossible because it does something like violate the laws of physics, you'd still maintain it's nonsense?

Quote:

And further, I never ever care what any vendor says on the topic. No disrespect at all to the vendor. I am the consumer and the consumer's needs rule.




Vendors or manufacturers / designers? It depends on who you actually mean, but I guess if you have no desire to listen to what the people who actually design and construct these things for a living (and have experience in dealing with the consumer market) have to say, those that actually have degrees and experience in the field then... I dunno. I guess if you at least say you don't trust them (for whatever reason), that's one thing. However I'd still listen - even if I have to put some filters in place.

The idea that anything can be done is absurd Bill. As is the idea that we know the reasoning behind why something hasn't been done.

Especially if you aren't willing to accept the answers from the folks who - um... haven't done it.



Quote:


Where the who-ha is that coming from Tom?





See above.


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rathbaster
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Tom T]
      #5652773 - 01/30/13 05:01 PM

All this speculation could probably be ended the next time Al Nagler shows up at a star party.

Just sayin'

-Joe


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rockethead26
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: rathbaster]
      #5652784 - 01/30/13 05:07 PM

Quote:

All this speculation could probably be ended the next time Al Nagler shows up at a star party.

Just sayin'

-Joe




Nah, he never talks about future plans. Likes to keep everyone guessing.


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The Ardent
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: rockethead26]
      #5652857 - 01/30/13 05:45 PM

My new scope is an f/3.5

In this scope I wont be using anything longer than a 20mm Nagler T5 with my astigmatism.

I dont think the 35 Pan can be much improved upon. Its my favorite low power eyepiece of all time. But I wont use it in the new scope (hey 9mm exit pupil ) I dont even use it at all anymore. It was great in my f/5 dob and f/15 Maks.

Im excited with the new Delos as I will have high magnification AND an exit pupil >1mm.

My dilemma is whether to get the 17 Delos or Nagler T4. Do I need either since I like the 20T5?


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Paul G
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: BillP]
      #5653092 - 01/30/13 07:43 PM

Quote:

In the end, for me personally, don't care about the internal optical prescription too much as long as the ER and AFOV characteristics are consistent.




What existing eyepiece design covers the full range of focal lengths with consistent ER and AFOV?

Just because a consumer wants something doesn't mean it's possible or desirable for the manufacturer. In fact, manufacturers have been burned bringing products to market in response to a few vocal people on an internet group.


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Tom TAdministrator

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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5653141 - 01/30/13 08:20 PM

Quote:


Just because a consumer wants something doesn't mean it's possible or desirable for the manufacturer. In fact, manufacturers have been burned bringing products to market in response to a few vocal people on an internet group.




I hope our next software package for the forums has a "like" button.

This is all too true. Often the most vocal voices are a distinct minority.


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johnnyha
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5653224 - 01/30/13 09:14 PM

Quote:

What existing eyepiece design covers the full range of focal lengths with consistent ER and AFOV?



Pentax XW.


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derangedhermit
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5653354 - 01/30/13 10:35 PM

Quote:

As far as the ES 100 line being a knockoff of Ethos, I though x-ray photos had long ago proven the obvious to be true?



I'm surprised this post is still here. I got a nastygram for a similar statement.


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derangedhermit
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5653368 - 01/30/13 10:41 PM

Quote:

There are 1.25" eyepieces with 29mm field stops, a diameter larger than the inside diameter of the bottom barrel. How? Accept lower illumination of the edge that would be the case in a 1.25" eyepiece with a 27-27.5mm field stop.
As was said earlier--it's all about compromises and where one draws the line.



Moving the field stop from 12mm above the top of the drawtube to 12mm below can increase the fully illuminated diameter by 5mm, with no change in field stop diameter or any other design change; this includes eyepieces that attempt to max out the use of a given diameter drawtube. This is an example of a design decision that can determine performance and where the line is drawn.


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johnnyha
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: derangedhermit]
      #5653421 - 01/30/13 11:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

As far as the ES 100 line being a knockoff of Ethos, I though x-ray photos had long ago proven the obvious to be true?



I'm surprised this post is still here. I got a nastygram for a similar statement.




Shhhhhh...


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careysub
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: John F]
      #5653426 - 01/30/13 11:33 PM

Quote:

Jeff,

I've owned both the 22mm Pan and T4 Nagler in the past. Yes, the T4 has a larger and somewhat more immersive field than the Pan does.
...




Although AFOVs wider than the Panoptic's 68 degrees have their appeal, I find that an AFOV of roughly 65 degrees hits a sweet spot, since it matches the physiology of the eye which has a stationary FOV of about 60 degrees. Your eye is fully employed, and so is the EP's output.

Less than 60 degrees, and I am aware that I am looking into a narrower EP "view port", and must be conscious of where my eye is positioned. But 65-72 degree creates a feeling of a natural, filled FOV and I tend to gravitate toward using my Panoptic or Baader 68 degree EPs over my 82 degree Nagler or ES, or the 49-52 degree Plossls.


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Starman1
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5653522 - 01/31/13 01:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:

What existing eyepiece design covers the full range of focal lengths with consistent ER and AFOV?



Pentax XW.



Alas, no longer true. The 30 and 40 have been discontinued, and the 20 does not have a field stop anywhere near the limit for a 1.25" eyepiece.


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johnnyha
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5653541 - 01/31/13 02:22 AM

Oh right, i forgot they discontinued the 30 and 40. :

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cjc
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5653568 - 01/31/13 03:15 AM

Quote:

What existing eyepiece design covers the full range of focal lengths with consistent ER and AFOV?




I did not get on with the 14mm but the Explore Scientific 82 series comes close. I note they now list the field stops.


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Paul G
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: BillP]
      #5653861 - 01/31/13 09:05 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Lumping the Naglers together isn't appropriate. The type 4, 5, and 6 Naglers are three completely different designs, and none of them cover the full focal length range.




I disagree with that.




Seriously? You're saying the types 4, 5 and 6 are the same design?


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FirstSight
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5653923 - 01/31/13 09:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Lumping the Naglers together isn't appropriate. The type 4, 5, and 6 Naglers are three completely different designs, and none of them cover the full focal length range.




I disagree with that.




Seriously? You're saying the types 4, 5 and 6 are the same design?




The respective internal optical designs of the above types are different. However, from an END-USER PERSPECTIVE the vastly more important question is whether and how the viewing qualities produced differ across these various types. One difference that IS obvious between the T6s vs the T4s and T5s is strongly related to the significantly larger eyepiece lens size of tha latter: to me, it's MUCH easier to subjectively perceive the purportedly identical 82 deg AFOVs as generously expansive in the T4s and T5s than in the T6s. For example, I often find it takes a minute or two for my mind to "see" the AFOV in e.g. a 13mmT6 as equally expansive as in the 17mmT4 when I swap out the latter for the former, while by comparison, there is no such perceptual gap produced in switching from a 17mm Ethos to a 13mm Ethos (equal eye lens sizes). What's curious is that if I comparatively test the views through the raw eyepieces (no scope) against an illuminated sheet of white paper (i.e. an effectively "null" blank view), the perceptual gap produced by the difference in lens sizes between the 13T6 and 17T4 disappears in that I more or less instantly perceive the "sameness" of the 82 degree AFOVs.

Which brings us back to the larger question: what potential improvements could be made to the 31T5 Nagler, 41 Panoptic, or 21 Ethos, other than perhaps new versions thereof with expanded eye relief? What improvements would be sufficiently non-incremental to justify introduction of an additional eyepiece line or additional "type" for an existing line (e.g. T7 Naglers, or T2 Panoptics?) That is, enough of a difference that the re-labeling would be more than just marketing hype? Would you be more satisfied if Televue sold the improvement as "enhanced majesty factor" or if they sold it as "Ethos Type 2", or "3.7mm Ethos SX"...your choice for whatever the "SX" stands for (?)

Edited by FirstSight (01/31/13 10:51 AM)


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csrlice12
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: derangedhermit]
      #5653965 - 01/31/13 10:00 AM

Televue, Televue, whereforeartthou Televue....

Hey, Maybe I'll write a play........


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turtle86
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5654202 - 01/31/13 12:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:


A 25mm Ethos would've been nice, but only if Televue had been able to maintain the image quality of the 21mm Ethos and 31mm Nagler.




It's probably technically feasible to make a 25mm Ethos and satisfy all the same performance characteristics required of the rest of the line. What's probably not feasible is to do so without requiring an unacceptably bulky, heavy package size. It seems that for any given AFOV, past a certain focal length the required bulk and size begins to ramp up exponentially...consider how dramatically the 31T5 bulks up compared to the 26T5 or the 21E compared to the 17E. Would you buy and use a 25E only slightly smaller and lighter than a pony keg of beer? OK, so that hypothetical is a bit of an exaggeration in degree, but is correct in principle.




The ES 100 25mm is now out, sells for $600, and weighs in at 2 lbs, 10 oz., that is to say heavier than the 21mm Ethos but lighter than the 31mm Nagler. So, the weight is competitive and the price is competitive. The remaining question is how well it performs, or put another way whether is truly fills the void left by Televue not releasing a 25mm Ethos. The tidbits I've read about the 25mm ES 100 in other threads sound encouraging, but I don't know of any thorough reviews as of yet comparing it to other wide-field long focal length eyepieces, so it remains to be seen how it stacks up to the Ethos, Nagler or even other ES 100 eyepieces. I know I'd love to compare one to my 31mm Nagler...

I don't pretend to know enough about eyepiece design to speculate whether Televue should be able to make a 25mm Ethos that would perform as well as the rest of the line while weighing less than a bowling ball. It may well be that making one now isn't feasible for different reasons, but might be in the near future. I do see another problem for now--price. The 21mm Ethos is $900 and I'm almost afraid to ask what a 25mm Ethos would go for...


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Has Tele Vue Forsaken Long Focal Lengths? new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5655752 - 02/01/13 08:18 AM

Quote:

What improvements would be sufficiently non-incremental to justify introduction of an additional eyepiece line or additional "type" for an existing line (e.g. T7 Naglers, or T2 Panoptics?)






The issue of the need to update the coatings was mentioned. I believe TeleVue just does this as a matter of course, incremental improvements are made without renaming the line.

Jon


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