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bunyon
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Inspired by others - sixes, ADDED animation
      #5650828 - 01/29/13 05:50 PM Attachment (56 downloads)

You (hopefully) have seen Darryl's (Kokatha Man) stunning Saturn that shows the hexagon atop Saturn's north pole. He "sealed the deal" that he had nabbed the hexagon by doing a polar projection in WinJupos.

This inspired me to revisit some older data and do a similar polar projection. I did so with what I considered to be my finest Saturn from last year's apparition. This image was made on March 11 at 07:35 UT. It is a Baader 685 image made with a TIS DMK21-618 and 15" Newt at f/21. I've got this image as part of a slide show on my laptop background and while working (or not) on a paper happened to see it. With Darryl's image in mind, I was inspired to perform an image measurement and polar projection.

Here is the original image. Next post will be the projection.

Edited by bunyon (01/30/13 08:53 AM)


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bunyon
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Re: Inspired by others new [Re: bunyon]
      #5650831 - 01/29/13 05:51 PM Attachment (37 downloads)

Here is the projection. Obviously, these images aren't nearly as good as Darryl's recent capture. It makes me think others should go back and re-visit their data with a polar projection.

So, is this hexagonal, though blurry?


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bunyon
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Re: Inspired by others new [Re: bunyon]
      #5650833 - 01/29/13 05:52 PM Attachment (29 downloads)

A smaller version - didn't realize WinJupos made it so big.

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Mitchell Duke
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Re: Inspired by others new [Re: bunyon]
      #5650861 - 01/29/13 06:11 PM

Nice discovery, maybe we will have some more opportunities this season.

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Rankinstudio
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Re: Inspired by others new [Re: Mitchell Duke]
      #5650889 - 01/29/13 06:26 PM

I would say it looks like, even in the first image you posted, that you got some shape there for sure. The shot Darryl got was a more face on view of the pole, but it looks very similar to what Darryl posted. Nice work

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MvZ
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Re: Inspired by others new [Re: Rankinstudio]
      #5650966 - 01/29/13 07:15 PM

Nice, now you make me want to look at last year shots as well. I have one good set in Ir (742nm) made with the 16" Dobson, that I haven't processed before.

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lcd1080
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Re: Inspired by others new [Re: bunyon]
      #5650991 - 01/29/13 07:28 PM

Quote:

Here is the projection...So, is this hexagonal, though blurry?


Paul your projection renders the hexagon exceedingly clear and gives new meaning to the word "obvious".

Pete


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DesertRat
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Re: Inspired by others - sixes new [Re: bunyon]
      #5651044 - 01/29/13 07:54 PM

Paul,

Nice work! If anything the non-cicularity is even clearer here than Darryl's image - though his is a color image. Perhaps if he does the polar map in the red channel it will be even better. And of course this year we are getting a better view of the north and those guys down under definitely have an advantage.

Ok pardon the scepticism now. It would be even better to demonstrate by animation this to dispel any possibility of processing and polar projection issues. A span of say 30 minutes between 2 frames would really help, and a third frame would be really convincing. End of scepticism alert.

Glenn


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wenjha
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Re: Inspired by others - sixes new [Re: DesertRat]
      #5651056 - 01/29/13 08:00 PM

Hah interesting
hope your guys have good seeing in this saturn season


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bunyon
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Re: Inspired by others - sixes new [Re: wenjha]
      #5651184 - 01/29/13 09:17 PM

No worries, Glenn. I agree - I'll have to really dig into the hard drives to see if there were other images taken around the time of this one.

I'm not sure I agree that this is clearer than Darryl's. It's bigger but it's a little blurrier. The lower quality of the overall image, I think, detracts from the reliability of the shape. I would like to see his red channel polar projection (hint, hint).

However, I'm convinced these are real and that the hexagon is now an imagable target for us. Wild.


@Sam, me too, but it will be very low for us. Ah, well. Thanks.


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bunyon
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Re: Inspired by others - sixes new [Re: bunyon]
      #5651187 - 01/29/13 09:18 PM

Also, once again, I want to encourage folks to go back and look at their data from last year. That's a nice Saturn in the first panel up above, but it's far from the best of the year in these pages. I'd be surprised if there weren't some other hexagons running around in dusty old hard drives.

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ToxMan
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Re: Inspired by others - sixes new [Re: bunyon]
      #5651644 - 01/30/13 06:18 AM

Quote:

Ok pardon the skepticism now. It would be even better to demonstrate by animation this to dispel any possibility of processing and polar projection issues. A span of say 30 minutes between 2 frames would really help, and a third frame would be really convincing. End of skepticism alert.

Glenn




Sounds like the "imaging gauntlet" has been thrown down...let the games begin!


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bunyon
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Re: Inspired by others - sixes new [Re: ToxMan]
      #5651816 - 01/30/13 08:53 AM Attachment (15 downloads)

The gauntlet is taken up.

I'm not sure if this animation helps much or not. With the tifs, on my screen, it looks like the hexagonal shape is turning, but the first image of that night was clearly the best. For one thing, it was at a reasonable focal length. I got greedy and bumped it up to f/25 and the images got blurrier. A lesson there.

Anyway, this animation is 4 frames and covers approximately 24 minutes.


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sfugardi
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Re: Inspired by others - sixes new [Re: bunyon]
      #5652295 - 01/30/13 01:13 PM

Paul, impressive results! Looks hexagontal to me. Can you please explain step by step how you made this projection in WinJpos? Thanks for posting

Regards,
Steve


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bunyon
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Re: Inspired by others - sixes new [Re: sfugardi]
      #5652536 - 01/30/13 03:23 PM

Steve, here is how I made the map.

1) Obtain image - basically, get an image the way you normally would.

2) Open WJ. Under program, select the planet you're working with (Saturn in the example above).

3) Under Imag. tab set date and time - UT and be sure it is the center time of the capture.

4) Under Adj. tab, fit outline to the planet. With Jupiter you can select auto but it still usually requires some tinkering. You can turn up gamma and contrast to get a better fit. I find if I have a moon in the picture it gives me a nice handle. Use N/P keys to rotate frame, Page up and down keys to grow and shrink the frame, respectively.

5) Under Imag. tab save the measurement.

This gets you a .ims file that can be used in WinJupos any number of ways - it can be used to derotate and stack multiple images or it can be used to derotate RGB files. Or, it can be used to make a map.

Map:

6) under analysis, select map computation

7) under edit, select add and browse to your .ims file

8) select polar projection (or whichever you like)

9) select planetocentric (or whichever you like)

10) select which pole you want at top

11) select folder and file name

12) click on compile

The map will be generated and saved.


There are some good tutorials floating around. Kokatha man has a good one he will email if you ask.


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sfugardi
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Re: Inspired by others - sixes new [Re: bunyon]
      #5652603 - 01/30/13 03:53 PM

Paul, thanks for the details! I've saved the procedures and will try on your image tonight as practice. This week is shot for conditions, I'm still waiting on my first Saturn of the season.

Regards,
Steve


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DesertRat
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Re: Inspired by others - sixes new [Re: bunyon]
      #5652733 - 01/30/13 04:43 PM

Very interesting Paul!

However - pls check my thinking on this. Over small time spans the differential between Systems 2 & 3 is relatively small, something like 1 deg per hour. So in an animated polar map such as shown, would not the hexagonal pole remain fixed between frames? In other words if a given vertex of the hexagon lies at say 15deg System 2 longitude, would it not be pretty close to that same longitude less than hour later?

Glenn


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bunyon
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Re: Inspired by others - sixes new [Re: DesertRat]
      #5652803 - 01/30/13 05:14 PM

So you think there is too much rotation, Glenn?

I'm not sure why the differential between systems matters. The hexagon has a rotation period of just over 10.5 hours so over the time span of this rotation, you'd expect to see about a 3% rotation. As I'm not sure there is muct shape to the other three frames, save perhaps the last, I don't know that it says much of anything in regard to the "realness".

But I may misunderstand where you're going with your thinking or with how the projection is made. Can you explain better (for me) why you think the hexagon shouldn't show rotation?


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DesertRat
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Re: Inspired by others - sixes new [Re: bunyon]
      #5652862 - 01/30/13 05:50 PM

Tough to say but it looks like there is too much rotation. Or maybe I'm seeing things.

I don't think the animated map should show movement of features in small time frames, because it is a map with fixed coordinates. Over several hours it might show drift between System 2 & 3 however. Not sure as we have'nt had this view in a long time, or these tools at our disposal.

My claim is that even over 10 hours the hexagonal pole should not rotate much with respect to the map, Different sides of the hexagon would come into view obviously, with the pole almost stationary.

The number of Saturn images will escalate sharply in the next few months. Then the picture will be clearer. And possiby my thinking shown invalid or otherwise?

Glenn


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bunyon
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Re: Inspired by others - sixes new [Re: DesertRat]
      #5653216 - 01/30/13 09:08 PM

Got it. Yes, I agree, it should rotate much with respect to a stationary longitude scale. I thought you were saying it should rotate with respect to earth or the sun.

I was going to try to map out a line with a drawing program I have and see what the angle is but my images are on an external hard drive I left home. I'll look at it tomorrow.

I do agree - given Darryl's excellent image, I expect we'll know for absolute certainty that it is or is not imagable within a few months. However, I remain convinced of his data. I just don't see how an artifiact could make it look like his does and the rest of the image is so good it sells it.

(Of course, I remember a couple of times in grad school "not being able to imagine" something that turned out to be all too true.)


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DesertRat
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Re: Inspired by others - sixes new [Re: bunyon]
      #5653246 - 01/30/13 09:27 PM

Paul,

I think you meant to say "should not rotate much with respect to a stationary longitude scale". It would drift a little if you select a base of System 2, but not much over an hour or even more.

I am also convinced Darryl's image shows a hexagonal n pole. Pretty amazing. I just hope that CN posters understand its ok to ask questions and make suggestions. I know Darryl feels that way, we've helped each other for several years now. For example he was instrumental in my decision to switch to a Moonlite focusser which has helped me out significantly.

Glenn


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Kokatha man
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Re: Inspired by others - sixes new [Re: DesertRat]
      #5653261 - 01/30/13 09:42 PM

Quote:

Paul,

I think you meant to say "should not rotate much with respect to a stationary longitude scale". It would drift a little if you select a base of System 2, but not much over an hour or even more.
I am also convinced Darryl's image shows a hexagonal n pole. Pretty amazing. I just hope that CN posters understand its ok to ask questions and make suggestions. I know Darryl feels that way, we've helped each other for several years now. For example he was instrumental in my decision to switch to a Moonlite focusser which has helped me out significantly.
Glenn




.....just seconding Glenn on the above Paul.....and if there's not at least one Devil's Advocate operating at any one time folks can get easily "carried away" at times!

Also, Glenn's comments to someone else just a couple of weeks or so ago had me realise why some of my 3X drizzle images out of AS!2 were coming out with weird little localised artefacts after wavelet applications in R6.....all because I hadn't checked that the "Settings" options weren't set for the largest processing area..!

But that aside I think your image shows the hexagonal outline of the NPZ clearly.....to me the animation "helps & doesn't" in ways but regardless you've nailed it imho.....but I won't let you make any prior claim - I won't - I won't - and I'm not sharing the prizemoney with Brian either, despite Glenn's suggestions!!!

I'm doing a repro with a MAPs box on the NPZ in AS!2 so I'll post them later today our time along with some more Polar maps...


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bunyon
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Re: Inspired by others - sixes new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5653269 - 01/30/13 09:47 PM

Ha! Yes, I meant should NOT rotate with respect to longitude, or not much.

Darryl, I've been worried you'd think I was trying to one up you with this image. I've been kicking myself that I didn't think to do a polar projection when I took the image but, honestly, it never occured to me it was even possible. In any case, discovery isn't merely recording data - else Galileo discovered Uranus - but, rather, collecting the data and then analyzing it and correctly interpreting it. My data may have come earlier than yours but all the rest you got before me. And that is the hard bit.

So, I make no prior claim. If you hadn't made that image and projection, I would never have tried it.

Unless, of course, we're talking a LOT of prize money.


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BKBrown
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Re: Inspired by others - sixes new [Re: Kokatha man]
      #5653276 - 01/30/13 09:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Paul,

I think you meant to say "should not rotate much with respect to a stationary longitude scale". It would drift a little if you select a base of System 2, but not much over an hour or even more.
I am also convinced Darryl's image shows a hexagonal n pole. Pretty amazing. I just hope that CN posters understand its ok to ask questions and make suggestions. I know Darryl feels that way, we've helped each other for several years now. For example he was instrumental in my decision to switch to a Moonlite focusser which has helped me out significantly.
Glenn




.....just seconding Glenn on the above Paul.....and if there's not at least one Devil's Advocate operating at any one time folks can get easily "carried away" at times!

Also, Glenn's comments to someone else just a couple of weeks or so ago had me realise why some of my 3X drizzle images out of AS!2 were coming out with weird little localised artefacts after wavelet applications in R6.....all because I hadn't checked that the "Settings" options weren't set for the largest processing area..!

But that aside I think your image shows the hexagonal outline of the NPZ clearly.....to me the animation "helps & doesn't" in ways but regardless you've nailed it imho.....but I won't let you make any prior claim - I won't - I won't - and I'm not sharing the prizemoney with Brian either, despite Glenn's suggestions!!!

I'm doing a repro with a MAPs box on the NPZ in AS!2 so I'll post them later today our time along with some more Polar maps...






Clear Skies,
Brian


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bunyon
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Re: Inspired by others - sixes new [Re: BKBrown]
      #5653282 - 01/30/13 09:54 PM

I just want to know how he gets his little emoticon to have a light saber. That's cool.

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wenjha
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Re: Inspired by others - sixes new [Re: bunyon]
      #5653362 - 01/30/13 10:40 PM

the animation is fatanstic!
the hexagonal pole is very clear


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Mike Phillips
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Re: Inspired by others - sixes new [Re: wenjha]
      #5654124 - 01/31/13 11:23 AM

Man I need to quit my job and read these posts full time. Anyone want to baby sit my 4 kids? Paul??? NO??

Anyway, I think I may see the hexagon.

Yes, I agree it's good to be skeptical, we are after all on the edge of science and hobby.

I don't know the rotation rates of the hexagon, does it even exist within one of the pre-defined systems.

I think it's also interesting that, if this is real, we would be observing something that was discovered by a spacecraft and before Cassini previously unknown!

Mike

ps I'll feed the kids before dropping them off!? No? Ok, bye


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bunyon
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Re: Inspired by others - sixes new [Re: Mike Phillips]
      #5654137 - 01/31/13 11:26 AM

You can drop the kids off, Mike. My yard is fenced and we have blueberry bushes and squirrel so there is food.

All I could find is that it rotated at the same rate as the planet. But I haven't found which system it means. Maybe we can all work that out this year.


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DesertRat
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Re: Inspired by others - sixes new [Re: bunyon]
      #5655001 - 01/31/13 08:23 PM

Mmmmm.. blueberries!

The pole should be close to System 3 in rotation rate. However I don't know enough about the hexagonal structure, it might have an entirely different dynamic. One thing is for sure, its amazing.

Glenn


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